Use the Falchion

Heh, thanks! No problem. That's part of the fun of having differing theories. No problem! I'll warn you now though, it's a bit messy. To me, Gavinor Taravangian's most sensible choice for a Champion...and his ultimate downfall. Taravangian would see it as I explained above. Dalinar wouldn't be able to give in and kill Gavinor because his Oaths, his direct Connection to Honor (and his own past trauma) wouldn't allow him to. Taravangian thinks he has this in the bag - either Dalinar gives up and he's free, Dalinar refuses to fight and there's a stalemate and he's free, or Dalinar offers himself up to Gavinor to kill and Odium wins.* But what Taravangian doesn't account for - what even Rayse himself didn't expect - is for the fact that Dalinar isn't your everyday Bondsmith. He's a Bondsmith Unchained, not unlike Ishar. Dalinar can play with Connection, as evidenced in his intervention with Kaladin. That's where I think this is all going. I think Dalinar is going to take the Connection of Odium's Champion upon himself while tossing his Connection as Honor's Champion to someone else (either Szeth or Taln), and possibly his bond to the Stormfather to a third person (most likely Kaladin IMO). Dalinar then sacrifices himself, and things go haywire from there. This makes sense in terms of the story too. Dalinar has always been a (Black)thorn in Taravangian's side. Taravangian kept sending Szeth after Dalinar in order to have him killed, since he wouldn't become the Blackthorn and be an ally. But all it did (no thanks to Moash and Graves) was result in Kaladin swearing the Third Ideal. From Words of Radiance Chapter 84, "The One Who Saves." In Oathbringer, Taravangian plots to take over the Coalition from Dalinar, first by revealing Dalinar's position as High-King, and then by revealing secrets about the Voidbringers. (I think there's a third plot too, but I can't remember at the moment.) From Oathbringer Chapter 121, "Ideals." Chapter 122, "A Debt Repaid," discusses this in greater detail when Taravangian and Odium talk. Dalinar was supposed to fall at Thaylen Fields, not Ascend and still lead the Coalition. Taravangian always seems to think that he can get the better of Dalinar, but then either Dalinar or someone around Dalinar does something to change the game. I don't see that pattern stopping in this final book. So yes, Odium loses, BUT Dalinar wasn't his chosen Champion...so what happens? A lot of things could happen, but I think that Odium will gain some wiggle room and either escape or make a deadly blow to the planet/system that will eventually cause it to weaken so that he can escape later on, and causing the primary conflict for the next arc. (I have more theories about this, but this isn't the thread for them.) (Another potential outcome is that since Dalinar wasn't chosen, the rules of the Contest are more or less broken, and Odium is free.) From a meta-perspective, it feels like something weird almost has to happen. Book 5 is the smallest book to date, Sanderson has a LOT of storylines to wrap up in ten days. That's not a lot of time. So either he wraps them all up in ten days, does a few more days for denouements and epilogues, and the book is over. Or he could wrap up the Contest of Champions in ten days, have things go off the rails, and then spend the rest of the book dealing with that and whatever true finale will come. Still a third outcome is that Odium himself is splintered, with El and possibly Gavilar grabbing those pieces and doing their own things will them.** (A likely outcome that doesn't really counter my own theories, but who knows.) IMO, the problem with nearly any victory for Odium in a straight-up duel is that it's not a satisfying conclusion, something Brandon is actively trying to achieve. The problem with Odium escaping and going to disrupt other planets at this time is that it makes it feel like the Stormlight Archive is necessary to understand those later books, or that you need those other books to finish the story. I have friends who don't read other Cosmere books, and they'd feel left out or cheated if they're told "now you have to understand the Cosmere to get the end of Odium's story." Despite the books becoming far more Cosmere-heavy, Sanderson still wants the series to be read separately until Mistborn Era 4 I believe. So yeah, Odium loses, but does so in a way that sets up our villains and main conflict for the second half, while also not letting our heroes win the way they wanted to. *Which would technically be breaking a potential promise to Gavinor, so he may be injured by that...assuming he made a lasting promise in the first place. **And now I'm picturing Gavilar leading misguided Rosharan forces vs Hoid or whoever would lead Scadrian forces in Mistborn Era 4.

Up until Gavilar started receiving visions, that's a reasonable assumption. But it was when Gavilar started receiving visions that he sort of went...down the rabbit-hole, so to speak. And we know that Nahel Bonds seem to help cancel out the Thrill. Dalinar feels less of it after receiving the visions, and Kaladin doesn't feel it at all. If Gavilar was going to escape Rayse-Odium's notice, then it would be during those years.

For the back five books and shenanigans there. Gavilar's search for immortality and potentially trying to become like a Herald (and maybe Rosharans leaving Roshar) would tie in nicely with how the Heralds became what they are (and how the Ashynites came to Roshar in the first place). And which character has been working on a biography of Gavilar who also has a book in the second half? Jasnah. That's where we disagree, it seems. To me, I just can't see the value of Gavilar being anywhere close to a challenge to Dalinar in any way. Gavilar represents both Dalinar's idealistic and flawed view of the past in his brother-worship, as well as his flaws and sins in their conquering of Alethkar. Gavilar coming back and facing off against Dalinar isn't a philosophical or moral conundrum either - Gavilar is bad because he willing choose Odium for his own personal gains, and doesn't have the excuse of naivety or ignorance that other potential Champions might claim. The problem here is that Dalinar no longer feels that guilt. From Words of Radiance Chapter 85, "Swallowed by the Sky" Gavinor on the other hand...I'm pretty sure there's a scene in RoW where Dailnar is with Gavinor but thinks about how much of Adolin and Renarin's childhood he missed. Gavinor represents Dalinar's regrets, with Evi, Adolin, Renarin, and even Elhokar. And from a meta-perspective, I think Gavinor works far better. Book 5 was going to be Dalinar's book originally. One of the big moments in Dalinar's past was looking like he killed a child in cold-blood...and then revealing that he didn't...only for that to lead to even further tragedy. To me, it feels as if Brandon's intent was to parallel that storyline with Dalinar once again being asked to kill a child in good blood, but this time for the "greater good." The first time is used to fake us out and make us hate Dalinar, but the second time is used to make us want him to do something we were horrified about earlier in the book. (And expose our own hypocrisy along the way...which Dalinar would then answer by refusing to bend, and forging his own path.) If Gavilar is Odium's Champion, and Dalinar's flashbacks were in Book 5, sure, it could work. Dalinar would have this idealistic view of this brother, only to find himself "breaking" a vow he made to him about a kingdom for the greater good. But that doesn't feel as narratively potent to me. Nor does it feel like there are any cathartic third options. It just feels like Cain vs Abel. I certainly think it will carry through, but again, I disagree about the fact that it won't play out here.* To me, it makes all too much sense, and is all too easy to do - Moash/Vyre is a broken tool now. He's failed multiple times to kill or dissuade Kaladin, and is now blinded. Taravangian wants to either win or tie the duel (probably tie, but I'm not entirely sure), but more importantly, he needs to make sure he doesn't lose. The best thing to do to ensure that is to prey upon his enemy's moral obligations, much like what Moash did to Kaladin at the beginning of RoW. That requires an innocent person to be chosen...and Taravangian isn't above using innocent people for his cause - his hospitals prove that. But you need extra safeguards. What if your enemies are willing to send someone like Szeth to do their dirty work, or are able to live with the guilt "for the greater good" ala Jasnah? Then you send someone you know they won't kill - one of their own that they don't feel conflicted about. And that person has a bone to pick with a defunct soldier of yours? I call that an upgrade. Szeth won't kill Gavinor - Navani wouldn't let him, even if Dalinar would. (And he wouldn't.) Jasnah isn't going to kill Gavinor. She set up assassins to kill Asuedan, yes, but she doesn't kill her own blood. She mourned for Gavilar, she hugged and refused to kill Renarin - she isn't going to kill Gavinor. But how do you convince Gavinor to side with you outside of this? You promise Gavinor his kingdom (technically true), you give him the chance to bring peace (technically true), and you give him the chance at revenge. If you want to make it even worse, appear as a "friend of your grandfather's in a special bind that only you can solve. I'm not bad - I took out the bad guy! - but I have to play by his rules. Can you help me end the game? Can you be my hero? My Champion?" Besides, Odium isn't above playing the "kind grandfather" card. Rayse played it, and Taravangian actually was a grandfather, so I could see him playing that incredibly easily. Heck, if you predict that Dalinar isn't even going to fight his own grand-nephew/step-grandson, then you can say "and you won't even have to fight anyone" and be proven technically correct. Yeah, El is definitely back-half material. Imagine how Dalinar would struggle if placed in a position where he’s reunited with his brother but then forced to fight him and potentially break this pledge. I really don't see it as breaking a pledge though. Dalinar isn't fighting to be the king of Alethkar, he's fighting to win his kingdom back and then hand it over to Jasnah (and later Gavinor). To me, the promise was honored in Gavilar's first life. There are no lines about carrying it on after his death. (And in a way, Dalinar forsook that promise when taking power from Elhokar in the first two books.) *In my head, in the back half, Gavinor would have to confront his own guilt over the actions in Book 5, as both a victim and survivor, as well as his anger at Moash for being the same. But he can't get to the place where he forgives Moash (if he does) if he doesn't do something to get there. Becoming Odium's Champion would certainly be something!

I think the question more important than "is Gavilar alive" is "would Dalinar fight and ultimately kill Gavilar if Gavilar did come back?" And I think the answer to the latter is "yes." Not only would he do it for Navani's honor if she told him even half of what was implied (and for the honor and memory of Elhokar), but also because I don't think it'd be breaking any Oaths. Gavilar is far from innocent, and Dalinar isn't fighting to become king of Alethkar, so no personal promises get in the way. In terms of fighting capabilities, I'm pretty sure Dalinar would be the winner there too. ...although with Cognitive Shadows, things could get pretty sticky... But would Gavilar side with Odium? Absolutely, if it meant accomplishing his goals. But I still don't think his appearance would net the results Odium currently wants. I think Odium either needs to win or cause Dalinar to do something that would break the rules in order to get the desired results, and that screams moral conundrum to me. Gavilar, especially after RoW, doesn't feel like he'd cause too much of a moral conundrum.

While I'm now thinking that Gavilar is probably a Cognitive Shadow somewhere, I'm still not convinced he'll be Odium's Champion. Too late for what indeed!? My personal guess is that Gavilar may have been a personal acquaintance of Thaidakar, and took something from him - that Gavilar betrayed Thaidakar. (Breaths that were going to Thaidakar?)

Yeah I don't blame Brandon for the end-result too much - he took a troublesome situation and turned it into the best thing he could. But I feel like Brandon would be playing with fire if he did something similar, ala Odium's Champion. I agree with you on El being a back half character. EDIT: Changed "El" to "Brandon"

Yup. To be fair, maybe Sanderson learned how to plan to implement El correctly to avoid that situation, but I'm still not sure one book is enough time for that type of villain.

El is going to do something important, but I don't think he'll be the champion. That feels too much like a certain thing that happened in WoT's final book. Said thing was cool, but it also felt a little out of nowhere. Gavinor still makes the most sense for me.

We just have to remember that when he says "exciting and cool announcements" he means for him. Sigh...

Brandon just announced it in this week's update - it's a podcast.

...I was just thinking that it maybe an interesting way for a Kaladin/Leshwi/Syl OT3 or something of the sorts, but y'all took it to realmatics! On a more serious note, I was thinking that it may be useful for Leshwi and the four other Fused to purge Odium from their soul without risking anything else. Almost like a detox. They bond a spren that is both willing and not at risk (because they have a Nahel Bond with someone else), and can now use Stormlight and Voidlight...and probably Warlight. So they can then purge the Voidlight and other forms of Odium from their soul in successive stages...theoretically. I'm not actually sure if that would work. I think it only worked for Venli since Timbre captured the Voidspren in her gemheart. But that was the impetus of the question - what happens to a Radiant Spren that goes into the gemheart of one so Invested as a Fused? Culturally, I think it'd be cool to see Radiant Pairs between the two species ala the Parshendi War Pairs from the first two books. Implying that we aren't there already - we've got screaming out things to power up, fights in the sky, people returning from the dead, and actual level ups. Not to mention anime-esque multi-colored hair. We're already Stormlightball Z, and I can't wait for the next episode.

Citation for emotional manipulation or convincing? Because I can see Odium convincing Gavinor very easily with just three things: 1. Homeland - Gavinor will get Alethkar back. (Technically true if either side wins, but Gavinor doesn't need to know that.) 2. Peace - Gavinor can end this entire war, and won't have to hurt a single living soul. (Also true, since Taravangian knows that Dalinar won't break his Oaths to kill a child, and won't break his bond with his family to kill another member of it.) 3. Revenge - Gavinor wants to kill Moash. He wants to train to kill Moash. Taravangian can offer him up on a silver plater. So you're a six year old, hungry for revenge and wanting to help out, and you're told that you can do so if you just choose to be a Champion - a hero! - for one day, and you can have everything you want. Just go to the top of your house at this time, say this line, and you're good! ...I can imagine that sounding like a good deal for a kid. Depending on how you frame it (aka from a certain point of view), that's not entirely true. How easy would it be for Taravangian to appear to Gavinor in, say, a dream, and say "hey, I'm a friend of your grandfather's. I knew him really well. I'm in a tough bind. You see, your ultimate enemy is dead because I killed them, but now I've been forced into a position that isn't good. I want to save everyone. Don't you want to save people too, Gavinor? Can you help me? Can you be my hero - my champion?" Heck, even Dalinar thought Rayse was Honor the first time they met, with all of that gold and white. Why can't Taravangian pull a similar thing? Back to OP - Dalinar uses the powers of an unchecked and special Bondsmith to alter the Connection of the Champions and the Champions themselves. In my personal theory, I think Dalinar will take on the role of becoming Odium's Champion, while switching his role as Honor's Champion to someone else (either Taln or Szeth*), and then passing his Connection to the Stormfather to a third person (Kaladin). So Taln, sane by Dalinar's swearing of the fourth/fifth Ideal, knows what he must do. (Or Szeth, commanded by Dalinar, knows what he must do.) Dalinar dies, after Ascending and being Invested, and...I don't know what happens to him after that, honestly. But the Contest of Champions as a whole is muddied for a time. Yes, Honor won, but Odium's Champion wasn't willingly chosen by Odium (aka the chooser). Does that negate the rules? Are they enforced? I have my own theories about what that would mean, but I think as a whole, this would be a loophole enough. *It really depends on how much foresight Dalinar has. Because Nightblood erasing his soul may be a better fate than dying to save the world, and then still having to become a weapon of Odium due to a technicality.

I actually have a very similar theory and thought process! But would Kaladin even need to swear the Fifth Ideal of the Bondsmiths? Or would Dalinar being the Fifth Ideal and transferring his Connection as it is do the job? I think that the Contest of Champions will result in Dalinar Swearing an Ideal (or maybe even two, if necessary), and in the process of doing so, Ascend. During his Ascension, Dalinar will take on the Connection Odium's chosen Champion has to Odium while hoisting his Connection as Honor's Champion onto someone else.* Lastly, he'll throw his Nahel Bond to Kaladin** who will do something awesome in that moment as well. (He'd probably Ascend, since all of the power's there, but the two Nahel Bonds, the remnants of Honor, and the special nature of Dalinar's Bondsmith stuff and previous Ascension could mean that something else happens instead.) However, this would be disrupting the rules of the Contest, since Odium didn't choose Dalinar to be his Champion (I mean technically he sort of did in OB, but that was before the Contest was in place), which would leave Odium open to either 1) leave the planet, or 2) wreck the planet before the official rules bind him. *Taln is the most likely candidate IMO, since I believe he has a special role to play in all of this. Szeth would also work, if Dalinar wants his soul erased so that Odium couldn't do any funny business with it...and for tragic repetition. The first part of the series would bookend with Szeth killing Navani's husband...that's pretty twisted. **Kaladin is more likely to accept it and is probably closer to Dalinar's successor in this case than Adolin (who the Stormfather would probably not like to go do due to Maya), Renarin (who the Stormfather would probably not like to go to due to Glys), Jasnah (IDK if the Stormfather would or wouldn't mind, but I don't think Dalinar would put her in that position for political reasons) or even Navani (already a Bondsmith, and I don't think the Sibling and the Stormfather want to share a Radiant).

I have an incredibly stupid idea, and I need it out. But to get it out, I need to know if a Radiant Spren can have two Nahel Bonds. We know that a human can bond to Spren, but can a Spren bond two humans? Or rather...can a Spren bond a human and a Singer at the same time? (But also, yeah, can a Spren bond two humans?)

I don't think it's crazy, but I also don't think Dalinar would do that unless he finds out that Odium himself would do that. And contrary to what other people think, I'm not sure whether or not Odium actually could. Rayse talked about Intent mattering, but does that matter to the Shard or the Vessel? Because of the Vessel registers the Intent, but the Shard only registers the words, then Taravangian doesn't need to follow the spirit of the agreement - and in a case like that, then Dalinar reforging the Oathpact would be a good idea. If Taravangian is still bound to the intent, then I think the Contest of Champions will stand, and Odium will use a child Champion. (Dalinar can still end up breaking the agreement if he refuses to kill the the Champion, but the Champion isn't strong enough to kill him. A stalemate that neither Dalinar nor Rayse predicted, giving Taravangian a certain amount of wiggle-room.)

Nonsense! Dalinar would clearly be uncomfortable, and then try to tell the child a story to figure out the cause of the problem. ...and then Navani would come in and help the child feel better, if Adolin doesn't beat her to the punch. (And yes, I get the "eyes to the sky" joke.)

Dabi and Miklan from Fire Emblem: Three Houses would probably become fast friends (well, as much as two people like them can be friends), and that's terrifying.

Marvin Gaye has a song all about the type of healing Adolin really needed after that fight!

Same and same.

While it's not time yet, I feel like my list for 2021 is shaping up very nicely! It's a little sad that I feel like I have most of the songs already figured out, but I have 6 more months to add new things, so the journey is FAR from over. Best Sanderson Inspired Song: Best New Discovered Artists: Most Listened To Songs: Best Songs: Best Albums: Best Music Video: Best Throwbacks Song I want to sing most in choir: Best Covers: Best Leitmotifs: Most Chill Songs: Song I want to sing most in Karaoke: Best Describes the Year: Runner Ups *NF was listened to previously, but I only truly discovered him this year. *Explosive is a throwback simply because I didn’t find out the name of the song until this year.

Wax & Wayne Book 4 - 42% ReDawn (Skyward novella) Draft 1.0 - 72%

Even more so, it would give a definition to the whole "Son of Tanavast" thing. That might mean less of he's related to Tanavast, but more of him carrying on the legacy of Tanavast. (It also fits with some of the messianic symbolism that Kaladin has - a son of man, but also called a son of God, who is God himself?) Kaladin has some experiences with Gloryspren, which seem to have some relationship with Bondsmiths. (Syl fought off a Gloryspren early on in OB, IIRC.) And in many ways, this would feel like a next step for Kaladin's arc. While he was always a uniter of purposes, Kaladin is no longer a fighter - he's a healer, and a bringer of change. Before he united people to fight, but in ROW he gave them a space to recover from their trauma in.

Gavilar vs Dalinar in the Contest of Champions. I'd be down for that. In terms of the original question, I'm of the mind that the end result will be a "yes, but" sort of thing. For example: "Will Odium lose? Yes, but how he lost may violate the rules of the pact, leading him to have a small window to wreck some stuff up." "Will Honor's side win? Yes, but how they do will actually cause more problems than it would if they had just lost." My theories about how Book 5 will end are actually pretty similar, but I think the Stormfather would be safe. I think Dalinar would switch his Connection to the Stormfather with whoever he deigns to be Honor's Champion at the last minute, and the Stormfather would be fine. However, I do think that something will happen to Honor's Perpendicularity, so that Stormlight won't be as readily available in the first part of the back half. (In my theory, this will be due to Odium's small opportunity to mess stuff up.)

Same. Maybe it was just me, but I've been assuming that the scene with Adolin and Shallan and the Starspren led to some...adult activities afterward, and that Shallan may be pregnant from that encounter.

And the show with J Michael Strazyncski is still in the works as far as we know. Brandon has made comments about how "weird" it's gotten, and how it may turn into it's own thing, but honestly there's not a whole lot we know. I wouldn't be surprised if any updates on this are saved for the SotS in December. (Which will be a crazy one, if Brando Sando finishes up everything he's planned to do.)