Child of Hodor

Will be crucial when Szeth's book is The Knight of White to keep the symmetry going.

Can Dalinar appoint a champion who was born in Kharbranth and then Odium can't let one of his minions, including any champion he appoints, kill the Kharbranthian? My interpretation of their agreement is that Odium can't kill people from Kharbranth and by extension he can't let anyone who works for him do it either. Like, I don't think he's preventing all murders going on in Kharbranth right now, he just has to make sure his people don't kill any of them. We don't know that much about Shard contracts, we have seen shards find loopholes in contracts in other series. We know the Fused/Odium found a way to get the Heralds to "bend" the Oathpact. Odium could find a way around it, but it's an idea. While I'm thinking of loopholes the "contest of champions" might not have to be to the death. Or even a physical fight, could be decided over that card game the Singers were learning.

Oathpact is not a permanent solution. Might not even be a good temporary one. Odium has found ways around it (as Kalak said he would in the Prelude). Torture, Everstorm and gem knife to trap souls. Oathpact can’t be enforced currently because the Fused go back to the Everstorm.

In the latest Shardcast the idea of Iriali metallic hair being from dragons is discussed. https://www.17thshard.com/news/shardcast/shardcast-history-of-roshar-part-2-r474/ I would argue that they have metallic hair because they have Elantrian ancestry and Elantrians have metallic silver hair. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Elantrian#Physical_Changes Its also in their name Iri like the Ire who are world hopping Elantrians Kelsier meets in MB:SH. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ire In addition people from that region tend to have Aonic-ish 3 letter names like Evi and Toh.

Odium has a little Vice going on with Heart of the Revel the party Unmade. Vice doesn’t seem like a major personality trait of a creator god. Or a Brandon creator god at least. Unless Adonalsium was like Zeus, womanizing and such.

I like to think he's like Dalinar only in that Dalinar tends to think everyone should be writing books all the time and won't stop telling people about his favorite books. He always assumes Nohadon is writing Way of Kings when he sees him and he never is. Dalinar takes time in the middle of a huge crisis to write Oathbringer, an idea Nohadon scoffs at when Dalinar suggested it to him in a vision. Dalinar made up his own head canon that Honor wrote a book. He tells Honor that the Visions are "a book you left behind, except I don't read it, I see it." - WoK Ch. 75 Dalinar carried Way of Kings into battle with him. Dalinar is always making Sadeas and Adolin listen to the Way of Kings audiobook. OB Ch. 28: "It's a quote from a book". Dalinar said. ... Yeah we know, Dalinar

Because she's not a monster and she doesn't trust the Fused. Her first encounter with the Fused was them killing her friends, she doesn't particularly like them. The Listeners revered and valued spren. It's instinctual. As you said, she saw it floating around her sister, on some level she may feel it's her last remaining connection to Eshonai. The first time she protects Timbre it is from the Fused that just killed her once-mate. She didn't want him to destroy anything else. Eshonai and Timbre have similar personalities, Timbre is a little explorer zipping around rooms, peering in drawers and such. I don't think they compliment each other like other radiant pairs. Syl is cheerful, Kaladin not so much. Wyndle worries constantly, Lift acts without thinking of the risks. Shallan uses wordplay all the time and abstract thought/Art, Pattern is a cognitive manifestation of mathematics and is very literal in his interpretation of words. I like Eshonai a lot and was sad she died, but I think the Timbre - Venli pairing is more interesting.

Good call! Of course a problem with O + H = J is how is Justice a combo of shards when it is clearly an aspect of Honor already. But, see, the thing about that is ... uh, maybe ... OK, maybe, combining them just emphasizes aspects of what's already there over other aspects. Especially with Shards that go together naturally: Honor is about keeping your word and following agreed to rules. The radiants bond spren that are a mix of H+C investiture and their whole thing is growing Honor. The more oaths you swear and keep to the more power you obtain. H+O becomes more about "what's to be done with people who break those rules?" It was a consideration for Honor on his own but now it's a point of emphasis. H+O Teach with the stick instead of H+C teach with the carrot. Odium is hatred for someone as a result of their actions, which then becomes hatred of others whose actions BROKE THE RULES I CLEARLY EXPLAINED AT THE START OF THE GAME, BRAD!! DO NOT PASS GO DO NOT COLLECT $200!!! PUT, BRAD, PUT THAT CARD BACK IN THE PILE! All that said: Agreed!

I think some combination of Shards, although that's what happened in Mistborn . Odium on it's own is a problem "god's own divine hatred separated from the virtues that gave it context" WoR Ch. 71 Vigil Odium + Honor = Justice would help address it. Attaching that Hatred to a code of behavior. I wrote a post that I can't find now pointing out how often justice is referenced in relation to Dalinar. When Kaladin is in the slave cart on his way to the shattered plains one slave says "perhaps we'll find justice here". Kaladin meets Dalinar out on the plains. -WoK Ch. 4 Dalinar confronts Sadeas after his betrayal in Ch. 69 Justice. They meet on a giant Thath glyph Navani burned which means justice. "Thath. Justice." After Dalinar beats up Elhokar he explains how things are going to be different with Dalinar in charge "We're going to turn Alethkar into a place that men will envy again ... because people here are safe and sound and because justice reigns" WoK Ch. 69 Justice. "Alethkar was justice." Dalinar in WoR Ch. 5 "If you really believe in justice, you---" Kaladin to Dalinar WoR Ch. 22 "All Kaladin had to do was lead the king into a specific spot ... that, and betray Dalinar's trust in him. And if I don't help kill the king won't I be betraying justice and honor?" - WoR Ch. 68 Betraying Dalinar is betraying Justice. "There was no Almighty watching. If there had been - and if he'd had a shred of justice to him -Honor would have long ago purged this world of the fraud that was Dalinar Kholin" - Dalinar thinks in OB Ch. 86 "Justice is that what you brought to those people?" Dalinar asks himself OB Ch. 86 Of course Kaladin, Szeth and Nale Herald of Justice talk a lot about justice as well. Dalinar seems to be associated with it the most.

I love Dalinar and was very afraid he would die in the front 5 since he was already an older man and his book was originally #5. I was very worried for him in OB until "So what's the plan?" and he looks down to see Lift by his side. I knew he would be Ok and that's one of my favorite moments in the series. I don't know about him lasting beyond SA. He's sort of the obvious choice (to quote the Monster from LOST) for ascending and he already has started to "Dalinar was not supposed to Ascend" - Odium Ch. 122 OB. This makes me think he won't end book 10 Ascended Mistborn spoiler Jasnah would be a very Brandon choice for leaving book 10 as a Shard Vessel. The atheist becomes a god (of sorts) and she is penciled in as Book 10 flashback character. It's probably a fool's errand to guess what twists Brandon has planned. LOST spoiler:

Yeah, we can bridge the gaps and understand that there was scene in between we didn't see. It wasn't as critical as Jezrien's death and Vyre gaining the blade or the Odium / Mr. T scene which explained what happened with the Oathgate and the honorblade and them making a deal. But he killed Dalinar's brother, tried to kill Dalinar twice and nearly killed Adolin. Dalinar's a forgiving guy now, but there would be questions after the battle.

Yeah, there was a lot of falling action and setup for the next book that needed to happen at the end of Oathbringer. Things had to be omitted or the book would approach exceeding bindable length, they had to switch to thinner paper as it was. Oathbringer is longer than Words of Radiance, but look at the size of the hardcovers. Another omission is Szeth giving a more thorough explanation to Dalinar and the other Radiants before being accepted. The next we see of him he's just tagging along at strategy meetings and no one says anything.

I could see that. Cultivation is called "The Slammer" by Hoid per a WoB. And as @Scion of the Mists said he is afraid of exposing himself. I don't think any of that precludes the reason Odium can't leave the system being a pact between Honor and Cultivation. Honor and Odium can still kill each other despite whatever is going on, since Odium was killed Tanavast/Honor according to a vision "Odium has killed me" - WoK Ch. 75 I don't think it was Honor's last action that initially trapped him, I think his last action preserved the contract by keeping Tanavast around. Odium was in the system for at least many thousands of years before Honor died. I'm sure that's not what Odium wanted and was part of Tanavast's plan that Frost speculates about in his letter to Hoid.

I left a reply in the Shardcast on this, but I wanted to start a thread on this idea. The Stormfather references Honor and Cultivation as an analog for the Oathpact. The Fused are the prisoners of the Oathpact but they never agreed to it. The Oathpact is between the Heralds and Honor. The Fused are released when one of the parties breaks their Oath Honor or one of the Heralds on Braize (9 Heralds on Roshar refusing to return to Braize is a loophole because no one considered that they'd ever not be on Braize when the Oathpact was agreed to). What if Honor and Cultivation made a pact with each other that trapped Odium? Only one party needs to break the pact for it to fall apart. Honor or his remnants can break the pact by themselves because there are only two parties to the contract. Mistborn Spoilers: Tanavast is dead, so any agreement should be voided (heh). I think it still holds because Tanavast did not go Beyond. He made himself a cognitive shadow and was absorbed by the Stormfather. He's still on Roshar telling Dalinar to "Unite Them" every once in a while. This is why Dalinar can impact the contract, he can stand in for Tanavast because on one level he is the same as Tanavast because they are bonded on the spiritual level.

Odium's prison: The Stormfather references Honor and Cultivation as an analog for the Oathpact. The Fused are the prisoners of the Oathpact but they never agreed to it. The Oathpact is between the Heralds and Honor. The Fused are released when one of the parties breaks their Oath Honor or one of the Heralds on Braize (9 Heralds on Roshar refusing to return to Braize is a loophole because no one considered that they'd ever not be on Braize when the Oathpact was agreed to). What if Honor and Cultivation made a pact with each other that trapped Odium? Only one party needs to break the pact for it to fall apart. Honor or his remnants can break the pact by themselves because there are only two parties to the contract. I always assumed Odium was trapped by some agreement he made because he was afraid of getting wounded in a 2 on 1 battle after Ambition hurt him, but maybe that's not necessary.

Pretty much this. Amaram and fake deaths and then tweaking a fake death post-publication, but tweaking it so slightly that it’s still a fake death so what was the point. Its good that Kaladin didn’t save the day in OB, couldn’t save the king or himself. But I I didn’t like Syl lampshading it “maybe it’s time for someone to save you!”

Maybe so. The coppermind says they tend to be a few weeks, but they certainly could last longer.

*Sees everyone yelling at me* (kidding) Yeah, well, uh ... if it's so common how come it only appears once in the text of 3,000 pages + Edgedancer? It just struck me as odd it as I was re-listening on my walk to work and it has never been brought up on these forums that I could find so I wanted to point it out. That's Brandon's a wizard did it. It's fine that he has an explanation for it is passed down from Ashyn or a translation thing or it COULD be a worldhopper thing because as Brandon said in the WoB "Soil" is used to mean dirty on Roshar but the one guy who said soil that Argent was asking was a worldhopper and that was an intentional clue. I'm not saying, I'm just saying! Yeah, but it originates from old english for dryness and is similar to the Dutch word for dry, there's a million ways to say shortage, scarcity, shortfall, famine, without saying drought on Cosmere Waterworld. It's like saying flood on Arrakis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrakis It's not a mistake, either it's a Ashyn thing or translation or worldhopper. Seasons only last a few weeks (~15 days on Roshar) that doesn't seem long enough to be called a drought, but maybe it is.

That could be true. Would go along with Odium's "We Killed You!" to Dalinar when he formed Honor's perpendicularity. 16 participated in the Shattering of Adonalsium and he was split into 16 pieces. Odium's method is somewhat related, but in a way that's not obvious. Autonomy, or one of it's many, many, avatars is the only known shard that would fit the bill. The Vessel's of these two have a pre-existing relationship or at least Frost and Hoid lump them in together in the letters. Speaking of letters I find it odd that Hoid would ask for Autonomy's help if Autonomy is helping Odium. Hoid might not know that Autonomy is helping, maybe that is the "not obvious" part. If Autonomy's involvement is hidden from other Shard's Hoid would have a hard time finding that out.

No one on Roshar should know what a drought is. They don't grow crops except in Shinovar which is very closed off and even they get steady rain from the remnants of the Highstorms which come steadily. The one time of year the Highstorms don't come, the Weeping, it rains constantly. "Drought" does not appear at all in WoK or WoR, this is the only appearance in OB. They probably had droughts on Ashyn pre-"The Floor Is Lava" and the word could have been passed down in ancient text. Ethid is a Veristitalian, so he could have found out about the word that way. He writes this in a threeway spanreed conversation with Jasnah and another Veristitalian and neither of them question it. They are talking about Heralds and Radiants returning, so maybe they just had other things on their mind. Jasnah didn't seem to know about humans coming to Roshar from another planet before her Shadesmar trip, so I don't think other ecosystems would be known to Veristitalians. It's also possible he is a worldhopper. Zahel's and Azure's true nature was strongly hinted at by the colorful metaphors they use. Brandon has said that some words like soil as in soiled/dirty and hound are legacy words. But if someone said "soil" instead of ground or stone that could be a worldhopper and later he confirmed that the Ardent who referred to the ground as soil was a worldhopper. This feels like Ethid is using a term in a way he shouldn't know about.

I wanted to draw attention to a couple of idiosyncrasies within Odium's speech pattern and speculate wildly and wrongly about what they could mean Odium occasionally uses what appears to be the Royal We or Majestic Plural (love that term) and he repeats words and phrases / rephrases the sentence he just said for no reason. The Royal We goes along with how he likes to present himself as royalty. He wears a gold crown and carries a scepter he uses to make Dalinar kneel before him when they first meet. This goes along with him (Rayse) wanting to be the most powerful being in the Cosmere which is his motivational for shattering all other shards. The inner fire he shows Dalinar & Venli and Voidlight glow a dark violet color. This seems like the shards natural color, but he likes to dress up in White and Gold and the herald killer knife is white/gold. Shard colors aren't completely consistent, but I suspect the white/gold is part of him putting on airs. "No!" Odium screamed ... "No, we killed you. We Killed You!" - Ch. 119 OB "Little Man. Why did you write to us? Why did you have your Surgebinder unlock the Oathgate, and allow our armies to attack Urithiru?" - Ch. 122 of OB Repitition "Passion, son. Glorious, wondrous passion. Emotion" Ch. 59 Passion "There, there. That was a smidge too much, wasn't it?" CH. 59 Passion "Passion," Odium Said. "There is great Passion here." Ch. 116 OB "Good, good. Let us begin." Ch. 117 OB "No! No. We Killed You! We Killed You!" Ch. 119 OB "Kill him! Attack him!" Ch. 119 OB "Good, good. We understand one another" Ch. 122 OB Speculation Perhaps the repetition is Brandon giving Odium a distinct manner of speaking. Brandon is very good at doing this, you can tell the writer of one of the letters is Harmony on first glance because Sazed appends a lot of sentences with "I think". The "We" statements are odd, assuming he's referring to killing Honor/Tanavast who is the we? Did the Unmade or The Fused help in some way? Honor died in between desolations before the Everstorm. Odium couldn't manifest on Roshar before the Everstorm and the Fused were stuck on Braize. But, the fact is he managed to kill Honor while the Oathpact was still, barely, in place. He could be referring to some combination of his team of minions and himself or another party I know there are lots of theories. "Why did you write to us?" "Our armies?" We don't know who Travangian wrote the letter to or who it was sent to exactly and the Fused did a lot of work with the armies. Odium isn't shy about sharing credit and praising the Fused in between threatening to destroy them if they don't do what he says (classic abusive relationship). So he could just be talking about the Fused and himself. But, let's assume he is referring to only himself and there is some reason why Brandon gave him the weird repetition tic: Could it be that while Rayse & Odium are virtually inseparable without killing Rayse, The consciousness that communicates with others understands that it's really a collaboration of two entities? Some cognitive dissonance, so to speak. Or the words are coming from both Rayse and Odium who are on the same page emotionally, but they both want to get their word in even though they are saying the exact or almost exactly the same thing because they are practically the same entity, but not quite. Something is off, that makes him double up almost like a video that's buffering or Shodan from the System Shock games https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iZMD_eCpEo

Kind of. Trapping his soul in a gem so he can't reincarnate is different from what Nightblood did to that Thunderclast. That things investiture is so mulched up it can't be put back together, while Jezrien is still around in a way. For now, he's as good as dead. If anything the Radiants trapping the Unmade in gems inspired the idea, but Odium didn't have a good way to trap them in a gem since they aren't spren. Nightblood showed him a way to get at the investiture and affixed a gem to trap it. Reflects poorly on Odium that he had thousands of years to think of a way to deal with the Heralds and it took Nightblood for him to think of something. Even now it sounds like Jezrien could come back in some form, if his soul is freed.

I think the Dawnsingers made the Dawncities pre-Honor and Cultivation using some sound/singing related magic we haven’t fully seen yet. I think it is an Adonalsium thing. Roshar is so different from any other planet and we know from the Frost letter that Adonalsium did a lot of work there. Nothing about Honor & Cultivation makes me think they’d create singing related magic or creatures. I think H&C went to Roshar because there was a vibrant humanoid population there.

Venli won me over because of her spren, Timbre. Timbre is so cute and earnest and Venli protects her from the Fused and Odium over and over again. Venli also expressed some remorse which made me empathize with her. "How can you keep a Voidspren captive?" Timbre pulsed to Victory within her.

I share @WeiryWriters incredulity with the Jezrien “extra dead” designation. Not so much for what was said at the signing, but Ash says “they’ve killed gums somehow” and passes out. Which makes it seem like he’s gone for good. He’s trapped in a gem is a little different. I’m fine with not being in the beyond. I would not mind getting more of him in some form later. What i had thought was the knife yanked out the special investiture that kept them tethered to this cycle. They are Cognitive Shadows and that could take so many different forms, but in some we know of there is a special bit that is keeping them around. A Returned can have 900 million breaths, but if a Shard made a special knife that sucked out their one Divine Breath it’s all over. I thought maybe the knife took out whatever special bit honor gave them that keeps them reincarnating on Braize in the same bodies and the rest of his soul went Beyond. It’s fine that it didn’t. I’m interested to see where it goes. What I think is interesting is that this was the best Odium could come up with. A Shard is plenty powerful enough to destroy a cognitive shadow of it wants normally. Odium can splinter Honor, but he can’t take out the Heralds. I mean, we kind of knew this because the Heralds would have been obliterated a long time ago if Odium could do it. Why, tho? Maybe the Oathpact is doing it. After all the idea was for the Heralds to hang out with the Fused in Odiums’s backyard forever. Honor would have to be confident Odium couldn’t shred their investiture beyond recognition and disperse it. What makes me think it’s not the Oathpact or not just it, is that Honor and Cultivation had no answer for the Fused. From what we know Ishar had the idea for the Oathpact, recruited the others and they went to Honor saying “we’ll take care of it” Seems like there is an agreement between the Shards that keeps them from permanently destroying each other’s all-star team, if you will. Probably part of the larger situation where Honor and Cultivation’s powers are keeping Odium bound to the system “AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION” OB Ch. 38 long post, but your podcast got me thinking which is why I love it!