Oudeis

What would happen if you Leeched a listener in slaveform? Warform? Stormform? What if you Leeched an Awakened object? An Awakener? A Lifeless? A Returned?

I meant if they had actual different powers. I suppose aesthetic concerns exist, as well. Dalinar is flung through the air, and he says that the armor righted itself, as though it knew which way way down. I wondered if this were a trait of the Order his Plate was originally a part of, or a thing that all Plate has in common.

So. The border skirmish. Where was it? Which border? Was it between two Brightlords in Sadeas's fiefdom? Was Amaram defending the borders of the Fiefdom itself from attack by the Brightlord of a rival Highprince? Here's what little we know. One side was Amaram's army. The other side was also Alethi. The field was "bare, flat slickrock, remarkably even and smooth". The other side: "A landlord was encroaching on Brightlord Amaram's territory- the land owned, ultimately, by Highprince Sadeas. It was a border skirmish, and Cenn thought it was with another Alethi princeom." So, this implies Amaram is the defender. Is that simple propaganda this young recruit (Cenn, chapter 1) believes? Did Amaram actually take this land, and the other army is trying to take it back? Also note that this implies that (Cenn at least believes) it's at the border with another Highprince. Can we trust his word? On the one hand, he's a 15-year-old simple country bumpkin. On the other hand, he mentions being a herder, and thinks about how the land would make a good harvest. Would a local know the land, know the border, be a good source at to where Sadeas's fiefdom ends? Or is this a young kid who'd see Hearthstone and think it was Kharbranth, the way he thought a man in simple plate was a Shardbearer? "It was difficult to tell friend from foe, despite the emblems on breastplates and colored paint on shields." I think it's a slam-dunk at this point that it was at least between Alethi, not across the border to another Kingdom. Hrm. "A group of soldiers nearby wore Alethi uniforms. Kaladin's squad. Cenn ran for them, but when some turned toward him, Cenn was terrified to realize he didn't recognize them. This wasn't Kaladin's squad, but a small group of unfamiliar solderis holding an uneven, borken line." Maybe not quite a slam-dunk, then. If he sees an Alethi uniform and thinks Kaladin's squad... but against the weight of the other evidence, I think this just has to be a somewhat awkward way of saying that he recognized Amaram's colors, especially in light of the comment about everyone, friend or foe, looking the same except for colors. "That's one of Hallaw's officers" on the other side, per Kaladin. Who? EDIT: According to my search function, the name Hallaw does not appear in Words of Radiance. From Ch. 47, Kaladin's flashback to the same battle. "Kaladin turned, looking eastward. Toward a home to which he could never return." !!!! An actual direction. I'm lightheaded with giddiness. Ah. "Their enemy - a lighteyes named Hallaw - was fond of long volleys." So... that tells us little. These are the only instances I can find where this name is referenced, yet he seems to have some importance. I'll search Words of Radiance in a minute. Ah-ha! "Lesser landlords who sought to slice off bits of Highprince Sadeas's lands." Further evidence that it is across the border to another Highprince's lands. "Occasionally, Amaram's armies would try to seize territory from other Highprinces - lands Amaram claimed really belonged to Sadeas and had been stolen years before." Further evidence that Hallaw is the aggressor in this conflict, since Kaladin knows that Amaram does try to take lands sometimes, but seems to imply it's rare, and not what's happening now. Not proof, I admit, but one more pebble for the cairn. "...and Kaladin could see the enemy lining up on the shallow ridge across the field to the west." Doesn't technically mean much, since armies can manuever based on local terrain... just because this army is, at the moment, a few hundred yards west doesn't tell us much about the national border they are crossing. Adding for completeness. AH-HA! "The enemy. That was what they were called. Yet whenever there was an actaul border dispute with the Vedens or the Reshi, those men would line up beside Amaram's troops and they would fight together." I'm re-instating my slam dunk, this is definitely a dispute between two Alethi armies. I'm still only mostly confident that this is across a fiefdom border, rather than between two Brightlords in Sadeas's fiefdom. "Kaladin caught sight of a flash of green in the middle of the enemy brown." Bad guy's color is predominantly brown. Noted. "Amaram's forces were recovering; they'd win the day before long. In fact, Amaram would probably be leading a direct surge against the enemy by now. He generally entered the battle at the end." Submitted due to the theory that this whole thing may have been to draw Amaram out to the battlefield, in case just killing that one man was the goal all along. The Shardbearer is going through Amaram's line, killing soldiers as he passes. Kaladin has a reputation and a nickname, and wears trousers under his skirt for the express purpose of being recognized by his men. If he'd been the target, it could not possibly have been difficult for literally anyone to learn enough about him to target him, personally, on the battlefield. I see this as evidence against the idea that Helaran was trying to kill Kaladin, and attacked Amaram to draw him out. From the map of Alethkar. Please keep in mind that this is NOT oriented directly north to south. See below for directional reference. To speculate a bit here, if it is across a fiefdom border, against a Brightlord from another Highprince's lands, the only place this fits where Hearthstone would be "east" would be along the border with Vamah. From chapter 12, Unity, Vamah himself is not a Shardbearer. Just throwing it out there. And... this is a lot of typing. And my boss is starting to wonder why I'm not doing any actual work today. So ... enjoy! Discuss. EDIT: Addition. Vamah gets mentioned a few more times. He's one of the more obvious people trying to circumvent the authority of the king. He's behind on his taxes, and he tries to find ways not to have to hire the King's Soulcasters. Not sure what this means, or if there's even any reason to guess that Vamah has any connection to Helaran.

Words of Radiance spoiler.

This is pretty nit-picky, but out of a sense of completeness: Chapter 1. "The warm wind blew in Cenn's face, thick with the watery scents of last night's highstorm." Chapter 47, Kaladin's flashback to that same battle. "The battlefield was nearby, and, with no highstorms expected, the army had spent the night in tents."

For much the same way that it's unlikely simply burning copper would make you immune to Ruin's direct control, I would be surprised if burning electrum did much to thwart a Shard. With your own foreknowledge, it might be possible to add enough confusion to a tipping point, but just burning it as a whole probably won't bring you the results you want. Remember that Atium becomes useless because suddenly there are thousands of possibilities, and the human brain cannot have thousands of thoughts at once. From Vin's ascension, we see that Shards aren't quite so limited. From references to Rashek's brief Ascension, he accomplishes in minutes things that would take a human hundreds of hours, at least, to think his way through. Most Shards, if they gave you their full attention, could probably track down all thousand or so images you're putting off, correlate the data, and come up with a plan that will cause you to act how they want, no matter which future path you go down. Shards can also probably use direct shardic intervention to simulate something like chromium and simply stop any single human's investiture that they wish. We know any Shard can power any Investiture, though this causes them to expend themselves in a way they are hesitant to do. Presumably, it would be a similar principle that would allow them to snuff any single Investiture. I would suspect an electrum burst would be something like the opposite of what you suggest... rather than a longer immunity, I think it fits more with what we know of bursts for it to provide a stronger resistance for a shorter time. Your idea has some merit. I could perhaps see a scene which two conflicting Shards have both foreseen and attempted to influence, their powers coming to a head, then suddenly in leaps Hoid, burning electrum and duralumin, putting off enough power to confuse the Shards just for a second while he... does whatever thing he does to change the outcome. I'm not gonna pretend to understand Hoid's plans.

This must have already been brought up, because how could it not have been, but I've searched the forum and couldn't find it. Elhokar's blade, Sunraiser, is described as etched with the 10 Fundamental Glyphs. Meantime, the Surgebinding chart. I'm sure I've heard that the Glyphs representing each order are supposed to be stylization of the hilts of the ten Honorblades. While there are obvious subtle differences, the Fundamental Glyphs appear very similar to the ten Honorblades. Any thoughts on this? Why are these Fundamental Glyphs? What do they mean, what do they represent? Were they carved into a Shardblade, or when the Shardblade took its shape, did it decide to show up with the glyphs etched into its surface?

I might owe you a bit of an apology, since it seems I may have misunderstood half of what you said. It was not at first clear that you meant Dalinar was being pious because he had a religious devotion to the book. When I first questioned this point, I still misinterpreted your answer. My apologies. However, the second half stands in opposition. You say that Sadeas cannot be pious, because he is selfish. There is no part of the definition of the word pious that precludes selfishness. This is entirely a redefinition on your part. If you worship your God, and he tells you to be selfish and self-serving, that these things will bring you rewards, and you obey his commands, you are pious. Your personal objections aside, there is very little wiggle room in the definition. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the definition of piété is "Vertu qui dispose à rendre à Dieu l'honneur qui lui est dû par les actes extérieurs de la religion.". Loosely, a virtue whereby you honor God by outwardly performing religious acts. If the Alethi belief in the Almighty commands that you defeat your foes, crush your enemies, build up your own empire, and pursue your own goals, there is nothing which prevents you from working with Ardents to attain higher Glories and tricking your political rivals into getting slain at the hands of your common enemy, and still being perfectly pious. I believe the rest of your post is merely re-stating points you've tried making before, which I or someone else has already rebutted. ...Someone like Szeth, for example. I like to believe I have given every factual point you've brought up the consideration it deserves, whether I agree with it or not. But yes, if you're going to present your own snap judgements about the motivations of a minor character we never get to see the viewpoint of, or offer your own personal redefinitions of words as the only possible interpretation... then I'm sorry, but I don't think those tactics warrant consideration in a scholarly debate. If you would simply like to inform us all of your personal beliefs and let it stand, that is one thing. Once you try to tell us that this is something which must be an actual fundamental truth of the cosmere... I'm afraid the bar for proving that is a bit higher.

I don't believe it's a fair criticism to say that I didn't read what you wrote. Up until this last post, when I disengaged, I quoted you extensively and responded to you point-by-point. Claiming now that my problem is that I simply "didn't try to understand" you is more than a little insulting. The fact remains, you've decided that piety means something with a tangential-at-best relation to the literal definition of the word. If this will continue to be a large part of your argument, there simply isn't anything more for me to say. You're never going to convince me that Mr. Sanderson meant your personal definition rather than the actual one, and I'm apparently not going to convince you that redefining words is a poor basis for a scholarly debate. I've said this before. As Mr. Sanderson once told me, you are the director of the story in your own mind. If believing something makes you enjoy the story a little bit more, more power to you. If you want to believe that only kind, gentle people can be Radiants, you are 100% entitled to believe that. The more people who like his books, the better. I don't believe you'll convince many other people with the arguments you've presented, but you shouldn't let that stop your own enjoyment of the book. I may not agree with what you say but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it.

He professes to be a tineye. Telling you about the role Mistborn play in the era of Alloy of Law might be technically considered a spoiler, if you haven't read the book.

Like I said. Since you've said that you will define the words by your own personal lexicon, there is nothing I can say which will change your mind. You of course have the right to believe whatever you wish. I respectfully bow out of this conversation.

But there's also WoB that not everyone survives to their own book. Her 'viewpoint' book might be spent largely in flashbacks, perhaps to the events of Gavilar meeting the Listeners for the first time. I happen to agree that there's very little chance that she's dead, but it's not technically impossible just for that reason.

That wasn't quite what I meant. I mean, I'm not going to justify his actions or explain why he might be a great person. Because my point is, it's irrelevant. We are discussing whether his blade screaming at him was a sign of Radiant ability, and my contention is that he can be a Radiant whether or not he's a nice guy. Eh... how has Jasnah been "wise or careful"? And if Honesty can be considered a "mastery of lying" and Just can be considered "sociopathic and homicidal adherence to an unjust law" then I think "close enough" isn't close enough to say "there's no wiggle room to allow someone to be a jerk". If this is still half the basis for your entire argument... I think you have to admit it's an incredibly shaky basis. ...Dude, you're simply utterly redefining the word Pious now. Piety means exactly one thing. If you're going to tell me that you're personally redefining the word, and that the metaphysics of Roshar now adhere to your personal redefinition... well, I can't argue that. If you're going to argue that your personal definitions trump real definitions, then by that definition, you'll always be right. I hope you can appreciate, however, that I have no obligation to accept your personal definitions. You're absolutely allowed to believe whatever you wish, and more power to you, but I hope you can understand that you won't be swaying many people. ...But... Shallan wasn't born with the power to create illusions. Her bond to Pattern gave her the power to create illusions. So, you're saying he was attracted to her because he had already bonded to her? And what about Yalb? He wasn't crafting an illusion when he bragged about his time in Kharbranth, he was just straight-up lying, and Pattern loved it. Also, you think "admitting her feelings" is a bigger truth than "I killed both of my parents"? That's... um, an interesting interpretation? EDIT: A quote from Darkness himself. "Goodness is irrelevant." I'd like to point out that Szeth, who wasn't at all good, is apparently a perfect Skybreaker. A "good" person would look at a law telling him "you have to slaughter hundreds of innocents" and say, this is a terrible law, I am not going to do that. So, of the Radiants we've seen, Szeth, and you admit to Jasnah, are bad people. Dalinar, Shallan, Kaladin, and Lift are basically decent. Probably Renarin is as well, though it's hard to say, seeing as we don't have a point of view. This is far from proof that the other 3 Orders have to be paragons of virtue.

Sorry to diverge from the topic a bit... if anything, my best hope for all the deadspren blades is that they find peace. Perhaps via shardpool, like an Elantrian. This could make for a cool moment in the book. The good guys have all these Shardbearers, and they're fighting a Desolation, but then they realize there's a way to end the suffering of the spren... do they let the spren continue to suffer, trying desperately to save the entire world? Or do they give the spren over to release, disarming some of their strongest allies?

1. "things reflected" is a bit loose to explain why Voidbinding has to be connected to Shadesmar. "Minds, reflected here in the Cognitive Realm" has nothing really to do with line symmetry being turned into point symmetry. 2. The Nightwatcher is considered a pagan superstition by Vorin kingdoms. Why would they depict her as a proper Vorin lady? That would be like a temple showing Ganesh, Hindu God and Remover of Obstacles wearing a Bishop's Miter weaving a Bridgett's Cross out of reeds. I could see that being done as a form of satire, but not as a classic work of art.

I'm hopping on the camp that "Renarin has the ability to do Lightweaving". WoB has stated that while each Order has unique abilities based on the bonding of the two Surges, he says that each individual Surge will typically act the same between them all. Balance of evidence seems to indicate that Renarin will use the Illumination Surge in a manner very, very similar to the way that Shallan uses it. It's technically possible that this isn't the case, but with what we know, that strains credulity. It requires some mental gymnastics to accept, and a ton of speculation and assumption.

That's not the first time Shallan met Pattern. She met him when she was a young child, and managed to speak up to the Third Ideal (if Lightweavers need to speak the same number of ideals before summoning a Shardblade as other Orders do). She only started seeing him as patterns when she was ready to reforge her bond with him. Elhokar hasn't shown any artistic talent, but artistry is a feminine art. For a lighteyes, especially the King, he's not allowed to try creative pursuits. He even needs to hire a man to make fun of people on his own behalf. For all we know, he's a flutist of rare skill, or a genius molder of clay, or a poet to break your heart; since he's socially forbidden from trying any of these things, neither he nor we will ever know. This is an excellent point.

Wit>"Two what? Two hands? Two eyes? Two spheres?" Sazed>"That isn't funny."

My impression is that he removes the skin, because that's the easiest way to find the spikes, otherwise they'd be under all the flaps. Like the spikes change an Inquisitor's body, I suspect the mutation of a Koloss involves your own skin turning blue and growing huge and flappy and loose. Remember, skin gets damaged a lot. They'd need fresh skins every generation, or they'd be full of the holes of every previous koloss who has died. Also, even in the little Koloss, you don't see human skin through the big open eye holes. You see raw muscle. Not like a human wearing a blue skin, but like someone whose own skin is simply too big. But your point is valid; we don't actually know that this is how it works. When I first read the books, I believe I wondered the same as you if the spikes were used to pin the skin in place.

I am personally going to only address the points about my issue, which is the idea that you don't have to be good to be a Radiant. Enough other people are arguing about Relis, they do not need my assistance. This is not meant as a concession to that point, I just think it's immaterial. Those are all from a chart that went through the Hierocracy since it was last used by the actual Radiants. In the Ars Arcanum, it's immediately followed by the message that it's probably inaccurate. Even then, many of them absolutely allow you to be a total jerk while still fitting. "Pious and Guiding," well, that fits Sadeas to a tee. The Alethi belief in the Almighty holds the destruction of your rivals as a religious obligation. By leading his men in a clever plan to lead to his chief rival's death, Sadeas exemplified both of them. "Pious" only means "don't be a jerk" if the God you're serving is a kind and gentle God like the New Testament one. A God like the Almighty, for whom the highest Calling is to be a soldier, or even the Old Testament God, would reward the slaughtering of a rival and all of his armies as a holy act. "Wise and careful". Again, you have to assume that there's only one form of "wisdom" to assume this precludes being a jerk. You might personally believe that it's wise to be kind to everyone around you, but that's not the sum total of wisdom. You can't make the call that no one can be both selfish and wise. Taravangian. He's very careful. He's also got a lot of knowledge. He truly believes his way is the best, perhaps the only way for humanity to emerge after the Everstorm with the potential to survive. It requires him to literally conquer the world. He is intelligent thanks to the boon, but beyond this, he is also wise. He understands the people around him, knows their inner workings well enough to manipulate them. Even on a day of normal intelligence, he's still able to conquer a land and manipulate Szeth, thanks to his wisdom. Even if I were to stipulate that true wisdom requires you to be kind and gentle, we know that you don't have to be perfect in a virtue to be a Radiant. Kaladin is still working his way to become a leader and a protector, he even stumbled enough to lose his Bond, and yet he was still a Radiant. You get better at the "virtues" as you progress through the Ideals. Saying someone is less than 100% perfectly wise is not the same as saying they cannot be a Radiant. And Shallan. Creative, fine. But she's supposed to be honest. She lies to literally everyone, up to and including herself. She has advanced to the Third Ideal, at least, without being able to tell herself what happened the night she killed her own mother. Obviously, this chart has some significant flaws in it. If this chart is your entire basis, I think you have to agree that it's not an ironclad argument. So far, the evidence I've noticed in support of your theory is the chart and the fact that we've only seen good Radiants. I have addressed both of these issues, in my humble opinion I think I've done a decent job of doing so. I will confess that this whole thread has gotten rather... lengthy, and I may have missed a point you've made in other posts. If there's a point I haven't addressed, please direct my attention to it and I will try to rectify the mistake. I also await your reply to the points I've made here.

How do we know there aren't ten Unmade? And why do you think the woman on the edges is Cultivation? And how do we know exactly what the flames represent? And why is a gem Odium?

Based on no evidence, I am now going to flat-out state that Nightblood's presence in the Forests of Hell would make every Shade near him frenzy instantly.

Ehhh... I'm still disagreeing. We've only seen three Radiants closely, at all. Lift and Ym each had a single chapter, Szeth, Jasnah and Renarin are only mentioned briefly. It's an incredibly small sample size, and I humbly submit that what you're referencing is a false positive. Specifically, the Protagonist Syndrome. There are a LOT more allomancers in Mistborn than there are Radiants in Stormlight Archives. Let's imagine we saw just eight. Vin, Elend, Kelsier, Ham, Breeze, Allriane, Spook, Clubs. By this sample, we'd say that to be an allomancer, you HAVE to be a good, honorable person. And these are the main characters. We see a dozen or more casual allomancers throughout the book, not to mention the actual bad guys. If we'd seen 20 Radiants, some of them antagonists, some of them simply random people, and not a single one of them were someone "virtue-less", I would agree with you that it led to the belief that you must have "virtue" to be a Radiant. It still wouldn't be as good as concrete proof of an underlying principle, but it'd be compelling. But how many people do we know of that we KNOW have said a single Ideal? Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah (because she has a Blade), Lift, Dalinar. We have no reason to suspect Ym has said one, Renarin likely has but we don't know he has, when we last saw Szeth he definitely had not since we saw literally every second of his life since dying. With a sample size of five, maybe six that we have ever seen, five of which are protagonists, we cannot possibly make broad generalizations about the entire potential group of people. And Szeth killed hundreds, perhaps thousands of innocent, defenseless people. If we accept that this is okay because he did it all because of a slavish adherence to the Rule of Law, why then can we not accept that Relis's actions were totally justified based on the virtue of "Loyalty to one's family"? On that note, how can you say he has no virtue, when we don't even know yet what the virtues are? We know the following: Honorspren choose those who Protect. Highspren choose those to uphold the letter of the Law. Whatever Wyndle is likes the Ideal, "I will remember those who have been forgotten." Liespren choose those whose virtue is nothing more virtuous than an incredibly convoluted grasp of reality (i.e. "true lies" like Yalb's brags or the social fabrication that is human society or Shallan's duplicitous nature). So that's three concrete Virtues we've got, only one of which is beyond a doubt "virtuous" and one vague one that seems pretty virtuous. If you can be a Radiant for killing innocent after innocent because an unjust and manipulated law demands it, or for a lifetime of lies, why are you so certain that all the other six "virtues" presuppose the inability to be a jerk? Lastly, there was nothing more honorable about what Adolin did to Sadeas than what Relis tried to do to Adolin, and we've got this. Source. So, whichever virtue the Willshapers exemplify, they don't care if you ambush an inferior opponent and kill him because he physically assaulted and dishonored your family. New theory: Relis is a Willshaper.

I would like to applaud you on your outside-of-the-box thinking. I happen to agree with the other people who have suggested that this is contraindicated by current evidence, but regardless, you considered a possibility that hadn't occurred to me, and for that I think you. Please keep posting ideas!

Hrm... this leads me to another thought. If Nohadon's ceiling is the same chart, it cannot be the Knights Radiant chart. Because Nohadon hadn't yet written the book upon which the Radiants were founded. It must refer more to just the Heralds than the Radiants themselves. ... which I guess has to be commonly recognized, since we don't call it the Radiant chart, we call it the Surgebinding chart. This is just the first time I, personally, realized that it prolly cannot refer to the Radiants. Which leads me to another thought. Is it possible that this means the Voidbindin chart is specifcally about ten individuals? The Unmade, or the Fools, perhaps? It also makes me wonder why the Larkin are so associated with the Heralds.