The Count

But the question about whether honorspren are directly or indirectly related to Honor (Shard) is quite important. If (as some theories contend) honorspren (able to bond) were directly created by Honor (Shard) as splinters of himself then a capitalization as Honorspren could be considered appropriate due to their being direct extensions of Honor's (Shard) intent. As opposed to spren created after Honor's splintering which could (in some sense) also be catagorised a honorspren (i.e spren as a piece of Honor) even if they cannot form bonds. Not sure those two sentences actually make any sense now I read them back ... ho hum... I think the grammar argument is probably spot on here and I am in danger of overthinking. spren / flamespren / deathspren / honorspren = noun therefore not capitalized.

Just finished this book a week ago. Here are my thoughts: WARNING: SPOILERS AHOY! On Balance I thought it was a magnificent outing for a new writer. Setting was original, prose was excellent and I was kept engaged up to the end. I particularly liked Powder Mages as a concept and the tension between the different magic classes was gripping, as wass the political backdrop of the revolution. I do agree with several of the points Elwynn raised though. Adamat and Nila added very little. They both had great potential but there was just not enough book space to flesh out their POV's and make them interesting. They just ended up as padding. I also agree that there was a enormous missed opporunity to explore addiction and substance abuse in both Taniel and Tamas. It is kind of hinted at that Taniel is addicted, and after Tamas is wounded there are more hints that he is in danger of addiction after getting his powers back. Nothing actually results from this though and there seem to be no consequences for either character. In my opinion, this could have been expored much more and really would have given both characters more depth as well as giving a interesting Father - son parallel in how they deal with their problems. I feel that the end could have been much stronger if either Taniel or Tamas had failed / missed / died as a result of addiction to powder. Maybe this theme will be explored in the next books. But these asside, I thought the book was well worth the read and will definitly grab the second when it appears.

Sorry sorr sorry!! Meant to post this in the WOR forum. Can one if he mods move it?

Hi all, Just something I noticed from the reading I wanted to post. Look away now if you do not want to know what happens!! Ok, so The way I heard the actions of the scene was that a 'spren that was not acting like it should' was being hunted by the KR (with help from regulars) and when it was discovered, bonded (or maybe possessed?) the bedrock of the lake and formed a Thunderclast. Now, if these black spren (odiumspren?) can bond with rock to form a known type of voidbringer and we know that the Parshendi change form when bonding with spren.... Source of Jasnah's voidbringers maybe? Just a thought.

They could always be two distinct but related creatures. Lets assume that the small flying wasp like creatures have a roll in the lifecycle of the greatshells. The Aimian ones (in the front cover) related to the Aimian great shells now hunted (almost?) to extinction by the Alethi. The Larkin could have a similar roll the Reshi Isles greatshells' life cycle. Two interesting question I think are: 1/ Are there any similar creatures hanging around the Shattered plains? (would help to confirm if they are related to great shells or not). 2/ Why are the 'dragonwasps' given such a prominent place in the KR table? (IIRC, it is supposed to be an in world document) Just as a side note: Do we know any details about the scouring and what it was? I know that the Alethi hunted the Aimian greatshells (lyceryn?(sp)) but is that related to the scouring or separate?

Agreed, but there is giving up the shards, and then there is giving those shards (some of the most powerful and destuctive arifacts on the planet) to a bunch of ignorant peasants. If they were just tired of fighting, they could've just stopped, hidden their shards away and devoted their life to peace or knitting or whatever. Why give the shards up in the way that they did?

See Fact 1 in my OP. Brandon has said that the Radiants did not quit in response to the Heralds actions, but due to something else. I am sure there is a quote somewhere.... Even if we did not have this from Brandon, the actions of the Radiants make no sense if they just decided to quit. If they just decided to quit because the Heralds said they won, then why do they give up the shards to the people? This would an extraordinary final act, totally irresponsible and not at all in keeping with the oaths of the orders. Well the desolation that had just ended in the Prelude was definitely the final one before the actions of the book, and from the conversation between Kelek and Jezrien, there were certainly Knights Radiant around then as well. I do not think it was a desolation they were returning from. The enemy are described as 'devils'... given the large numnber of non humans on Roshar, that term could mean any number of things. As Vortaan pointed out, it was probably centuries between the prelude and the Recreance. Enough time for the weaponry to evolve in to steel blades and stone keeps to be built.

Just so you all know, I am only posting this because people seem to be handing out up votes a lot in this thread ... gimme gimme gimme! Seriously though, I can understand the reasons for disagreeing with down voting but surely we have to operate on the assumption that people are adults (or at least reasonable people who can think for themselves). If I was to down vote someone (I don't think I have yet), I would probably post on the thread politely pointing out why I felt I needed to do so. I would not say "Loser, you suck! DOWNVOTE!!!!!!11111!" Similarly, if i felt strongly about receiving a number of down votes I might post asking for feedback and reasons. I would not say "OMG, you guys SUCKZorz!" I do not think it is too much to expect people who visit these (really quite excellent and open minded) forums to be polite and respectful, just like in normal social interaction. A down vote, used responsibly (as it is on these boards) goes someway to ensuring that there are very few disrespectful posts. If I felt that the community here was full of trolls and cliques then I might feel differently (can we say World of Warcraft forums anyone) but that is not the case. In short, if it aint broke...

I know, I know... another thread about why the Radiants quit! Still I was reading This and had some more thought and ideas I wanted to share and did not really want to resurrect a year old thread (my necromancy is not that strong!) So Lets start with the facts: Fact 1: The Radiants did not quit in response to the actions of the Heralds (WOB on this) Fact 2: The Radiants gave up their shards to ordinary soldiers Fact 3: Common perception is that the Knights Radiant were corrupt. Fact 4: The Knights Radiant were around when The Heralds did their thing in the prelude. Fact 5: The Knights Radiant were fighting a war against 'devils' when they gave up their shards. Fact 6: There seem to have been no surgebinders at all in the years between the Recreance and WoK. Most common theories for them giving up their shards are the following: Theory 1: They found out that Honor had died and gave up in despair Theory 2: They discovered that the Heralds lied to them so gave up in despair Theory 3: They found out their blades / themselves were corrupted by Odium so quit. Theory 4: They realize they were being used to fight mundane wars and so quit. Theory 5: They were coerced by someone in some way. There are more theories out there but these seem to be the favorites. Theory 1: I am not a fan of this one. I think Dalinar's visions show that Honor was finally splintered (or at least that the splintering was completed) after the Day of Recreance. In Dalinar's final vision of the Everstorm, Tanavast says openly that it is only a possible future but talks about the other visions as if they are history. Ergo Honor was witness to the Knights giving up their Shards. Theory 2: WoB kind of rules this one out. Even then though, if the Knights found out that th Heralds lied about the victory over the voidbringers. Surely that would make them more likely to continue so that they can fight in the next Desolation. The concept of giving up in despair is also quite contrary to the first ideal. Strength before weakness and all that. Theory 3: Corrupted Blades, not a fan. If I were in possession of an incredibly powerful corrupted artifact, I would hide it away. I would definitely not give it to a bunch of people who would have no respect for its power. I could get behind the idea that the Knights themselves were corrupted in some way but their weapons were not, this at least gives an incentive to give away the weapons so that they cannot use them for evil. But then wouldn't you choose who to give it to? Someone who you thought would at least respect its power? Theory 4: More in favor of this one that those above. I certainly think the KR were fighting mundane wars by the end but if they realized this was not their calling then why not just stop doing it? Doesn't seem like a strong enough reason to give up the Shards. Theory 5: Quiet plausible but impossible to guess who or what coerced them and what they threatened them with. it makes no sense if it was Odium since he could not threaten anything worse than the desolations ( the whole point of the KR in the first place) so it would have to have been something else. Could Honor have asked them to do it? Now that would be interesting...... So where does that leave us: I Think that two things led to the Day of Recreance: Firstly, the Knights Radiant were getting corrupt (in the mundane sense rather than Shardic / Odium sense). Maybe just the leaders, maybe more but they became arrogant and greedy and started behaving a bit like mercenaries. Still going through the motions of upholding the ideals but becoming more ritualistic about it (similar to the Knights Templar in Europe). Secondly, I think Honor knew he was dying and slowly being broken by Odium. My Theory is this: After the events of the prelude, Honor was immediately under attack by Odium. Slowly he was being broken and was dying and this corresponded to the KR becoming more decadent and arrogant in their power as Honor's influence dwindled. During this time, Honor set about trying to make sure that there was at least a slim hope for the future and made the visions. As he saw what was becoming of the Knights he knew that they would eventually become more and more corrupt. Before he finally died, he told the KR to give up their power for the good of mankind. I would further speculate that Honor did not mean for The KR to give their shards to the people. Maybe by then the Knights had started to think of the shards as the symbols of their power and so interpreted Honor's instructions badly. Shortly after this, the splintering of Honor was complete. So there we have it, my theory as to the reason for the Day of Recreance. No evidence of course (when do I have any evidence for my wild theories!) But I think it fit what we know. Feel free to pick holes and discuss as you will, it is probably wrong anyway. Peace.

I think this is a good point, I forgot the quote about Honor being around during the prelude... For me I think Honor was splintered after the day of recreance and before the Heirocracy. I like the argument that the visions are based on actual events. In the everstorm vision, Tanavast specifically says that this is only a possible future, implying that what came before was actual fact. Ergo, Honor watched the day of recreance happening. Maybe he was decapacitated in someway before that so could not influence events... maybe the death / splintering took a long time... I don't know. But I feel that, if Honor had been around during the time of the Heirocracy and the Sunmaker, there would have been a vision about it since it is a pivotal event. Speculating further, I also like the theory (can't remember who said it first) that the Ardents were getting the same visions as Dalinar during the time of the Heirocracy, which led to them trying to seize power. This would mean that Honor had been splintered / killed before then. No evidence for this though really. The main question I have is, Why have there been no surgebinders since the day of recreance? Szeth and Kaladin seem to be the first in a very long time. What changed? Gavilars actions? Szeths actions? Something else?

That was the quote I was thinking of... To me this reads that there are more types of (for want of a better word) 'mundane' spren following the splintering but not more Honorspren (created by honor before his splintering). I guess it is all in the interpretation and th quote is too vague to say for sure...

We know that there are more Spren since Honor died, but is there confirmation that there are more Honorspren? I have doubts about that.

This is good stuff... There has been some speculation recently that both Honor and Cultivation are Splintered on Roshar.... Could they be undergoing a process of mingling on Roshar in the form of new Spren? The implications are pretty huge....

SPOILERS HERE - SA2 READINGS AND WOK SPOILERS IN THIS POST Your theory certainly has some legs... I do have some comments though Not much to say here, definitely agree that something must have happened to make Syl dislike Dalinar's Shardblade. Although I think we need to caveat that she has only expressed hatred for that one and not necessarily for all blades. I kind of like this. Seems fitting with what we know of Odium's nature. Although with the limited information we have, anything is pure speculation at this point. Don't think I can get behind this one... If I was a KR and I found out that the great enemy was corrupting me using Shards, would I really give those Shards to other people? I mean I would lock them away where Odium could not corrupt anyone. I certainly would not give them people with no training or discipline and give Odium a chance to corrupt them instead. I have never bought the Odium corruption of shardblades throry myself. I think that Syl hates a blade (an instrument meant to protect and save mankind) that is stained with the blood of innocents. In a world where actions mean so much, I can see how using a Shardblade for personal power and indescriminate killing would leave a mark / stain. I think That is what Syl hates rather than any corruption of Odium. (just my personal theory though) Not sure about this... the KR have been present and strong prior to several previous desolations. Also there has been almost no stop war on Roshar for several centuries so if conflict caused the desolations it would have happened by now. I am sure that Honor, in Dalinar's vision say that Oium has been waiting deliberately to let humanity become weak. Also, from the SA 2 readings we know that the Parshendi were trynig to prevent Gavilar raising their evil gods not because he was trying the unite Alethkar. Generally I like the Odium = corruption angle but not sure about some of the details.

Well, presumably one of the rules is: "Cannot manifest directly and lay waste to the planet" otherwise he probably would have done so on Sel... Maybe the Shards cannot mess with free will in mortals... (although Parshendi = Voidbringers would make that unlikely)

Thank you, was about to post it myself after scouring my kindle for it, but you beat me to it! I agree mostly, I think some must complete their pupation process (the one they killed on the hunt is proof enough of that). However, from the map of the shattered plains (the one showing the war camps), it does not look that large a place and betweent the Alethi and Parshendi, I think they must get ~80 - 90% of the crysalises (crysali?). Also didn't Brandon say in one of the Q&A's that there was going to be a large ecological fallout from the hunting of the Chasmfiends? I take that to imply that very few survive pupating at the moment.

Erm.. they pupate an await a highstorm (can someone dig up the quote?) Plenty of energy floating around to provide a gain in size I think. I think I agree that chasmfiends must pupate more than once in their lifecycle (The crab shedding their shell is probably a good analogy). If I were to make a guess, I would say that they need the energy of the highstorm to grow and need the crysalis to channel the energy of (or maybe just to survive) the storm itself. Given Rochar's climate, this seems like a reasonable evolutionary path for such a creaature.

How would this relate to Spren bonds then... If I understand your point accurately, then spren will react in response to the massed belief / perceptions of the local populous. Such as flame spren existing because people give form to the concept of fire, or Ale spren given form by the populations percepriopn of drunkeness. What of Honorspren then? If the local perception is what gives the spren their form, then Syl would react to the notion of Honor as perceived by the Alethi. If this is the case then surely Kaladin would never have attracted her in the first place since he acts in a very non-Alethi fashion. Same with Dalinar (although he may not be attracting an honorspren, or any kind of spren as far as we know.) Note: I like your theory very much but I want to play devil's advocate for a bit to see where the discussion takes us.

This is very interesting and would seem to confirm a number of things. Seems to suggest that Spren origionally came from honour. That is, he deliberately created the original spren, then he was splintered and became even more forms of spren. Honourspren, I think must have existed before Honor got splintered. Firstly as Syl remembers being bound to men before (the last Radients had powers before Honor was splintered). Secondly Nohadon talks about Honourspren in the vision. I think the opposite must be the case; Spren representing the 10 essences were created by Honour deliberately in the past and these were capable of forming bonds and creating the original Surgebinders. Then, when Honour was killed, he splintred and (either by will or by accident) became all the other forms of spren (ones not capable of forming bonds but that can be used in Fabrials) even if this is true, it doesn't really explain Honourspren since we know from the Nohadon vision that Surgebinders could be bound to other types than Honorspren (not all types of spren are as discerning as honorspren). The only thng I could think of is that maybe honourspren were the first created??? I don't know... On the Gems... I think gems could certainly be infused This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules stormlight before Honor's death. The midnight essence vision has one of the radients using infused gems to perform healing. Also, shardplate seems designed to have infused gems placed in it (although I admit that this a current subject of some debate). EDIT: Did this cause the original spren to forget themselves? That could be why there has been no surgebinders since the Recreance...

This... I am more than certain that something has recently happened / changed to allow spren bonds to form again. From the 2 readings, I think it may be whatever Gavilar did the night he was killed. The main unknown in this is Jasnah and how long she has been able to soulcast. ((Note: I do not think Szeth's abilities come from a spren at all so he could still be badass before whatever Gavilar did)) On Dalinar: I denitely think he will grow in power, not sure weather he will interact with his spren in the same way as Kal though. Maybe only windrunners ge that level of interaction with their spren ( or maybe Kal is a special case)... Shallan certainly doesn't have the same kind of bond / relationship with the truthspren as Kal does with Syl. Different for all orders maybe?? Either way, roll on book 2!

Nice Idea and good catch on the quote, I have 2 main points of concern though: 1/ Not sure Dustbringers are a KR Order. The prologue is pretty ambiguous and could be taken to mean a type of Voidbringer as much as a KR order. 2/ The quote itself is "...Brightcaller's rays" implying a single entity called the Brightcaller (presumably Honour or a Herald). If it was a KR order it should be "...Brightcallers' rays" implying more than 1 brightcaller. Those pesky apostrphes can get very troublesome....

What if the destuction of Roshar is personal and not directly tied to the Shardic intents. If Tanavast and Rayse were (for example) political rivals before the shattering, then once Rayse picked up the Odium shard, the hateful intent turned this into a drive to destroy everything that his old rival loved and stood for. Hence the destruction of Roshar and everthing Honor had built there. In that light, the Final Desolation is not about increasing the Shardic intent (there are plenty more planets in the Cosmere for that) but persecuting a personal vendetta by the Shard Holder.

I am not sold on the idea of heirloom blades myself, but only because it doesn't fit in with my theory of how they are made :P/>. I think that the plate and blade are the ultimate expression of surgebinding, spiritual energy made manifest as weapons and armour, tied to the maker's soul. I also think that it doesn't have to be a sword, just that the KR were trained in the sword, so that is what got made by them. In that sense the blade / plate is very personal item and would be interred with the holder on their death. If they were passed down then this implies that there were only a certain number ever made (presumably by one of the Shards / Heralds) and were given to the KR. SO did the KR never get any larger than the number of Blades / Plate Sets? Alternatively, how did they decide who should weild the limited number? Also I guess there is a narrative point (although not a strong argument I admit) in that I am sure that Kaladin will end up weilding a Shard Weapon and if they cannot be created then that will have to be a sword... only Kaladin doesn't know how to use a sword. My hope is that he will create a Shardspear as the ultimate expression of his power. damnation that would be cool I am getting goose bumps just thinking about the awesome of that! Another thought has occurred to me as I type this... Suppose that a blade (or Plate set) crumbles to dust when the origninal holder / maker dies UNLESS it was voluntarily given away by them? That would allow them to be made for all KR and for there to be a limited number in the modern era. Sorry, ended up rambling again.... need to take my pills...

OOOh.... I like this, a deal for a shardblade that went sour.... The only issue I can think of for this is that I am not sure a Gemstone (or even a large Gemheart) would be enough to buy a Shardblade. Aren't they supposed to be pricelesss? I am sure there is a quote in the book that whole kingdoms have been paid for posession of a single blade...

I tend to agree to be honest. I was trying to explain the glowing 'monster in the safe' comment. Even without that though there is no indication that all the dead men were enemies, they cold also have been Lord Davar's retainers. So a shardbearer killed b conventional weapons still fits the scenario broadly. My money is still on some sort of fabrial in the safe though, even if it s not a soulcaster.