Isilel

Yea, so: "In Archaic Greece, Solon of Athens took the unique measure to cancel all debts, abolish debt slavery, and bring back those individuals who had been sold abroad. For this innovation, he drew on the tradition of periodic debt remission and liberation of debt slaves by royal decree in the empires of ancient Mesopotamia, about which he may have heard during his travels in the East. His poems about his legal reforms also display striking similarities with Near Eastern, and specifically Neo-Assyrian, official memorials. In contrast to debt slavery in the Near East, the practice at Athens was terminated forever, even though the custom of debt remission failed to become entrenched." https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2972/hesperia.86.4.0607?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents I have previously mentioned abolition of enslavement of Roman citizens for any reason in 4th century B.C. As you can see ancient, slave-holding societies were entirely capable of understanding that enslavement of own citizens was harmful to their social cohesion and defense potential. Solon pushed his measures through during a crisis, BTW, and they stuck. But if you aren't enslaving your own people, but still relying on slave labor to some degree, you need to bring in slaves from outside. Which is something that other Coalition members would be actually likely to take issue with, not to mention that it would encourage piracy and banditry for the purpose of slave-taking. And then there is the elephant in the room which is that many modern singers don't want to fight the humans, but are terrified that not doing so would mean re-enslavement. None of the above has anything to do with "the same moral compunctions as the US", but follows the internal logic of the setting (and RL precedents from ancient societies).

How do you know that it was unilaterally? For that matter, we don't even know what exact changes were made. If it is just along the lines of "a daughter inherits in the absence of sons", the highprinces and lords may have been all for it, since people typically want their own offspring to inherit. Women were usually excluded because of the belief that they wouldn't be able to hold on to property anyway, but female Radiants are disproving that line of thought. It is not those who already (theoretically) hold land who are going to be disgruntled by the change, but those who aspire to gain it by the virtue of being light-eyed males. But then, the Radiants already make them less important and kick them down the rank ladder. So, a certain amount of unrest would have been inevitable even if nothing was done. Ruler with a brain is certainly preferrable to the alternative. And they could historically fix some things some of the time. So, Catherine was a very capable woman, who formulated all of Dale Carnegie's insights and strategies in her autobiography. Seriously, it is a fascinating book where she of course depicted herself in the best possible light, but it is also incredibly interesting from the point of her people management skills and principles, which she explains in detail. However, we can't forget that she was a woman, a foreigner and an usurper without a shred of legitimacy as a monarch in her own right in the 18th century Russia. And she was clear-eyed enough to understand her limitations. Which is why, while she knew that serfdom needed to be abolished, she couldn't afford to antagonize the gentry to do so. Societal changes are sometimes very fast indeed. It is fascinating to read the private diaries of Russian people spanning 1914 - 1920 and how they went from cheering the Tsar's family on the balcony of the Winter palace and sincerely admiring them to whole-heartedly getting on the world revolution bandwagon. Or look at the changes of religion - Christianization, then various Christian heresies/denominations. Ditto other religions. Sometimes the moment is there and profound changes happen extremely quickly. Biography of Byzantine Emperor Heraclios is very educational in this sense. All in all autocratic rulers can make changes that stick, if they are lucky enough to catch the right moment and manage various interests correctly. Joseph I failed at that. In fact, he wanted his epitaph to be: "Here lies Joseph I, who failed at all he undertook", only his family wouldn't allow it, so he failed even at that . But Henry VIII of England, for instance, successfully changed his country in profound ways. Not out of desire for common good, alas. Says who? There was zero indication of anything of the sort so far. In fact, Odium bargained quite hard with Taravangian, who had much more to offer, and only gave him a pittance. So as not to become a slave of the parshmen yourself? At best, that is, if they don't just decide to exterminate you. Also, the Radiants are upending the hierarchy, but everybody has a small chance to become one. IIRC they don't actually control any land or anything - how would they exert any pressure? It needs to be made clear why they can get away with their changes, sure. And there needs to be to be pushback. But not changing things is not an option from purely practical point of view. Extending human slavery to replace lost parshmen would be just creating a Fifth Column for Odium to exploit to devastating effect, as well as pushing away the Radiants who hail from these circumstances - like most current Windrunners. This needs to be prevented and the best way to do so is to abolish all slavery. Given that heavy losses are expected, like in any Desolation, allowing women to inherit allows for smoother transition of authority. Concerning Gavinor - actually, in OB we have been told that the traditional approach during the trying times is to pass over a minor heir and appoint an adult, since regency is deemed insufficient. As happened with Amaram becoming Highprince Sadeas, despite the existence of a young nephew. So no, Gavinor getting crowned as a child wouldn't be expected. Maybe once he reaches his majority, but even that is unclear. I'd also like to remind you that traditionalists had nothing against Ialai becoming Highprince Sadeas and eventually even Queen, as evidenced by the Sons of Honor support of her. Apparently, the views are already shifting on the subject. Religions change. Dalinar and the Radiants are their only hope to win this war and regain their country. Nobody owns many human slaves yet. They were always a small minority and far less valuable and desirable than parshmen. Which is why this is the time to nip it in the bud. It may be about values to Jasnah, but there are eminently practical reasons to ban slavery which I pointed out above. Why do you present Makabaki kingdoms and Empire of Azir as staunch defenders of human slavery?! As far as we know they never had it and are going to approve of it's ban among the Alethi. You do realise that one of the less attractive reasons for the American Revolution was the fear of growing abolutionist movement in Great Britain? And that indeed slavery was banned there and in the British colonies earlier than in the US and that the royal navy henceforth fought to stop slave trade? One demonstrably didn't need to share the premise of all men being created equal to be against slavery. And in fact, many, if not most opposed it for practical and political, rather than idealistic reasons. Which is applicable to SA. But the Radiants throw the hierarchy off-kilter. A slave can become a shardbearer and a super-hero and dozens already did. They also now know that light-eyed people are merely the descendants of Radiants and of those who managed to grab a dead shardblade. Their "divine right to rule" has been thoroughly undermined. It would be unreasonable not to expect a fallout from that.

I would hate this. Women shouldn't have to be daughters of famous fathers to be important themselves - I'd have hoped that we have moved on from the trope of women having to be a beautiful princess or a genius scientist's beautiful daughter to merit a role in the narrative. And it isn't like all people sharing the same ethnicity are related. But then, I am also disappointed in Pailiah's and Chana's pictures...

I am reposting from the other thread: Yea, I have now seen Pailiah too and I am disappointed. Wasn't she supposed to appear old? Why the seductive pose? Generally, she and Chana look like generic youngish pretty women. I'd have wished for Chana to look sterner and more military, not just in her outfit, but in her face and expression. And how could team Sanderson have allowed her a naked safehand?! The male Heralds are more diverse and show their character much better, as is sadly usual. I expected more from Sanderson, though. P.S. I like Kalak. Looks appropriately resolute.

Yea, I have now seen Pailiah too and I am disappointed. Wasn't she supposed to appear old? Generally, she and Chana look like generic youngish pretty women. I'd have wished for Chana to look sterner and more military, not just in her outfit, but in face and expression. And how could team Sanderson have allowed a naked safehand?! The male Heralds are more diverse and show their character much better, as is sadly usual. I expected more from Sanderson, though.

Love this depiction of Nale, despite his scar/birthmark not looking as described! In a "Call to Adventure" card he was looking too brutal for my taste, but this is exactly the kind of thoughtful detachment that I imagined. A bit less sure about Chana - and would an in-wolrld porttrait show her safehand so scandalously ungloved?! What about Battar? Was she shown, too?

One of the cherished privileges of Roman citizenship was being legally protected from enslavement for any reason. Romans abolished debt slavery for citizens in 4th century BCE. So, no, the idea that enslaving your own people is corrosive to society is not "modern". Also, they did too have chattel and plantation slavery. The latter ruined Italian agriculture and made late Republican/Imperial Italy dependent on grain imports from the provinces. Concerning the situation of slaves, the skilled and educated ones could be well-off and eventually in position to buy their freedom and gain the coveted Roman citizenship. In fact, Greek scholars and artists often even sold themselves to Romans for that very reason. If they served powerful people, they could be influential and respected even while enslaved. But most slaves - those toiling in agriculture, the mines, female slaves forced into prostitution, etc., didn't have it any better than American slaves and might have been worse off. What Azish slaves? As far as we know, they never had human slavery. Also, the famine that loomed back in OB didn't seem to materialize anywhere during the year gap, so they have managed. They will invent labor-saving devices and practices, like Europeans were forced to do after the Black Death. Also, there should be plenty of refugees from the war-torn areas and Singer-ocuppied territories, who would be glad to farm. I am surprised by all the slavery-apologia. Slavery is a largely inefficient way of agricultural production, some special circumstances aside, which is why serfdom eventually replaced it. Not to mention that on Roshar human slaves can't really compare with the ideal slaves that parshmen had been in their lobotomised state. Or that embittered human slaves would provide an ideal audience for Odium's recruitment pitch. Jasnah is right to nip the attempts to expand human slavery in the bud. And intelligent as she is, she'll certainly include singer slavery in her ban - which could provide the foundation for possible rapprochement with singers in the future. European countries abandoned slavery within their own borders long before the advent of industrial economy. Also, literacy rates in early industrial era were far lower than you seem to think. And social cohesion among the exile Alethi is incredibly important for thei survival, which is why it makes sense to curtail opportunities for them to prey on each other and create internal strife. They need to provide a beacon of hope to the people back home and motivate them to escape and/or fight against Singer opression.

He doesn't know something very important about the missing memories, though, Warbreaker spoilers:

Yes, he had a conversation about it with Kadash in OB, where he offered to reassign his ardents to somebody conventionally devout and Kadash explained to him that his people still needed the ardentia. And, of course, many of Navani's engineers and scribes are ardents. Ditto Jasnah's in OB. I think that it isn't just the case with the Skybreakers, but with all Orders except for the Windrunners. Vathah also only became Shallan's squire after she had reached her 4th Ideal (sworn her 3rd Truth + the Immortal Words). There is a WoB that she was one Ideal ahead of Kaladin in OB to confirm this. Windrunner Resonance is "the strength of the squires", so it would be logical if not only were their squires more numerous and "stronger" (i.e. able to use the surges better), but also that they could be empowered earlier - i.e. immediately after their knight swears the third Ideal.

Sebarial might well be a Ghostblood - in fact, he almost certainly has some kind of understanding with them, even if he is not a member, like in some parts of the world it was and is necessary to have an arrangement with the local mafia. But IMHO, Thaidakar has to be an experienced worldhopper. And Sebarial never was in a position to wander off for a year or three. He was already a Highprince during the last battle for unification of Alethkar when Dalinar was 25 (and referred to as "young", so Sebarial is probably a few years younger than Dalinar and inherited his title). The way Alethi are, a Highprince, leave alone one who is decidedly non-martial can't just go on a "grand tour" and not be replaced. I wonder about Felt, though. Mistborn spoilers: He was on the forefront of exploration of the Shattered Plains as a pole-vaulting scout in WoR and visited the Nightwatcher's Valley as a part of Dalinar's bodyguard in OB flashback. Not for the first time. He seems to be too much in the field for the big boss, but maybe he is a hands-on sort of person. In any case, I am sure that he is a Ghostblood agent.

Maybe Zahel will partially come out as a worldhopper and a kind of unconventional artifabrian/investiture expert? There is this very tantalising WoB about him: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394/#e12916 and Shallan should have put 2 and 2 together about Azure and him, now that she knows a bit about the cosmere. As to Azure herself, I expect that she is stuck in Lasting Integrity and the younger Kholin couple will run into her during their mission to Shadesmar.

WoK rather than "woke". Because it is there that we first learned that listeners/singers genders are often diffcult to tell apart for humans. This is reiterated in Jasnah's prologue in WoR. So, I am not sure why it is such a surprise for some? Given that it was, like, one of the first things that we learned about the Parshendi - and humans eventually only learned to pay attention to the presence of absence of beards, which malen may not even have in all forms. Fine whiskers like Leshwi currently has wouldn't be a deal-breaker even for some human women, BTW. My grandmother battled with such from puberty and for her whole life, for instance.

Now I see how "The Girl Who Looked Up" might be very relevant to Shallan's history. Supposing that there was an Unmade that was imprisoned somewhere on the property and little Shallan unwittingly let it out, then this act would have opened her for Radiance, i.e. "let in god's light", but also spelled disaster for her family, which fell under it's influence, i.e. let in "storms".

Wasn't the revelation that Rosharan humans arrived from another world a major plot point of OB? I'd say that the fact that other worlds exist and could be travelled to and from is fairly widely known by now. Not to mention whatever secret lore the Iriali may have retained. I have a theory that their deal with Odium is that he is going to help them relocate to their next world in exchange for their alliance. And that it is going to be . Given Navani's prologue and Ialai's hints about why the Ghostbloods persecuted the Sons of Honor : I'd say that plot relevance definitely exists already. Unless you suggest that Shallan will just forget about Ialai's words, burn her notebooks and won't interact with the Ghostblood leaders until the back 5. Incompetent?! Our heroes are completely outmatched through no fault of their own. In fact, they should have already been destroyed - I attribute their survival solely to the fact that Odium isn't looking for a quick military victory, but needs something else - for them to give up and succomb to him, probably. Is the massively abused SF/fantasy trope of an ancient evil preparing for it's return for millenia, just to be defeated by the newbie protagonists pulling powers out of their posterior as the plot requires and having repeated contrived escapes/victories "by the seat of their pants" better? Personally, I don't entirely like how quickly our heroes obtained their Radiant skills and prefer them having some help to them rediscovering and mastering everything forgotten for millenia + coming up with new revolutionary insights that would allow them to do better than their predecessors, all in the nick of time to triumph over an extremely capable prescient evil god and his cohorts. P.S. And how is Nightblood different from any old powerful, but dangerous artefact? As far as SA protagonists and even Vasher/Vivenna know it is very destructive, but also very risky to use. Which is why it isn't going to be trotted out constantly, but employed very carefully and strategically. They don't yet know about it's effect on the Fused/thundreclasts, nor can they know that it can hurt Odium's Vessel - though one-hit KO is very unlikely in this case, IMHO. In OB a Fused parried Nightblood with it's own aluminum sheath. It worked excellently.

The plot thickens - Szeth isn't one of the PoVs, he only gets an Interlude: So, who is? Not Lift, not Moash (he also gets an Interlude, hopefully only the one and isn't our interlude novella PoV), not Szeth... So, Jasnah or Renarin? Rlain, maybe? I kinda hope for him to be an Interlude novella PoV, though. There was also this WoB that Ash and Taln won't get any PoVs in RoW: Somebody new, perhaps, like Mink? BTW, concerning Venli's flashbacks, I have kinda hoped that the compelling thing about them would be the insight into Listener history and society and hidden nuggets of critical information derived from that, as well as the introduction and/or fleshing-out of other notable Listener characters. Not everybody needs to have some horrible secret in their past to have compelling flashbacks. Venli's present is horrible enough, even though her actions that led to it aren't a mystery. So, I am a little concerned now. OTOH, if the second PoV of the sub-plot that includes Dalinar is Rlain, then it is very likely that it will deal with the escaped Listeners. I have suspected that positioning of that secondary plot in the same parts of the book that also contained Venli's/Eshonai's flashbacks implied that the 2 would be closely connected even when I thought that Szeth would be the second PoV in it. Not sure how Jasnah would fit in, though, if she is the second PoV instead.

IMHO, if it was one of the lesser known Unmade, then it is much more likely that it had been imprisoned somewhere on the Davar property and was in the slow process of freeing itself and inceasingly affecting the family for the last generation or so. Re-Shepir somehow escaped eventually, so why not another Unmade? Shallan probably came into contact with it and likely thought, as a child, that she was the one who released it. IMHO, YMMV. Oh, and Helaran may have had something to do with whatever happened. There is more to discover about him - Taravangian suspected him of having trained Shallan in surge-binding for a reason, methinks. I don't see why Shallan's Radiance - which came later, anyway, would have attracted an Unmade, when no other prospective Radiants did.

Other worlds' existence and inter-world travel were only confirmed at the end of OB for casual readers. There were strong hints previously - all the details that pointed at humans and their animals being foreign to Roshar, Ym's interlude in WoR, the stuff Azure and Riino said in Shadesmar in OB, a lot of insinuations from Hoid, etc. Now that a cat is out of the sack on that, if a casual reader re-reads, they'd be able to see hints in Shallan's interactions with the Ghostbloods, IMHO. Sanderson couldn't hint more explicitely previously since he didn't want to spoil the big revelation of humans having come to Roshar from somewhere else for the general audience. The situation on Scadrial is similar because I don't think that the old WoBs about "Easter Eggs" are relevant anymore - and they always oddly clashed with Sanderson's assertion that "Warbreaker" was written as a "prequel" to SA. A prequel is normally supposed to have more connection to the main series than a few fan-servicy crumbs thrown to the rabid fans. I do think that any important otherworldly interference will be sufficiently explained in SA itself, so that a casual reader won't need to read the respective books/series to understand what's going on, while the cosmere-aware will be able to guess what's coming a step ahead of them and enjoy privileged insight.

Let's see: 1. We'll find out that Nale carefully set up all the pieces for Gavilar's assassination: he knew how the Parshendi would react to the king's ouvertures, he made sure that Szeth would be available for purchase and it was his highspren that lead the Listeners to Szeth and forced him to reveal his capabilities to them. He did this because there was no way for him to get a legal death warrant on Gavilar and take care of him personally. 2. Liss is Battar, Dova is Pailiah or Vedel, Ivis the sword ardent is Chana. 3. Ishar will Ascend in book 5 and will be the main villain of the the back 5 SA books. Likely to Odium, but there may be some twists there. 4. Ghostbloods are trying to fix Ambition. 5. Nightwatcher's Bondsmith is going to be a singer, and most probably a surviving Listener. Most likely Rlain, but RoW might introduce another candidate. Navani will bond the Sibling. 6. Szeth was a Stone Shaman and he was beginning to bond a Truthwatcher spren - his acceptance of his sentence as Truthless broke the nascent bond. 7. The soulcast corpses in the royal catacombs of Kholinar are going to be Awakened at some point and Zahel will perform his miracle in either book 4 or 5. 8. Azure will bond Captain Notum and become a Windrunner. 9. Dalinar will give Oathbringer to Taln and the broken Herald and the broken spren are going to heal together, making Taln the second to join his own Order and the second (after Adolin) to revive a dead-eye. 10. Some of the more obscure Heralds are going to redeem themselves through sacrifice - either to stop the Everstorm, or after it is eliminated by other means, they'll take up their oaths again and return to Braize to give anti-Odium forces breathing room between the first and second half of SA. This time around they'll be killed for good with Odium's dagger(s). 11. The Fused are going to find a huge stash of missing dead shardblades and shardplate and become much more deadly. Their spirit's bond to the weapons may survive deaths of the bodies and even return to Braize. 12. Somebody will try to steal back/free the Thrill and it will be destroyed with Nightblood. 13. Nale and Szeth will fight, possibly as Odium's and Honor's champions, and Nale will die by Nightblood. 14. Teft and Taravangian will die in RoW. 15. Moash will supervise mass extermination of humans at some point. He won't be redeemed. 16. The Iriali made a deal with Odium that in exchange for their cooperation he'd help them to relocate to their "fifth land" - and it will be Scadrial. At some point in the next 2 books Our Heroes will learn that the whole nation has vanished. This will give Odium a bridgehead on Scadrial in the future of cosmere, like exodus from Ashyn did on Roshar, only more so. And there is enough empty space there that their arrival won't be immediately noticed.

This post of Sanderson's on reddit offers some more clues about groupings: So, it seems more or less confirmed that PoV-wise Shallan and Adolin are in part 2 and 4 and Dalinar and Szeth in 3 and 5. Lift has an interlude and it is a bit unclear where Jasnah's few PoVs will fit in and whether Renarin has any. Sanderson also previously said on reddit that Moash would get an intelude as well - which, hopefully, means that he won't be the "interlude novella" character. This character is the remaining mystery and, personally, I hope that it is Rlain or a new singer. I have felt rather uncomfortable for some time that we mostly got the singer side of the conflict in OB through human PoVs of Kaladin and Moash and how either or both where suggested for leading the non-Fused singers or even the Fused(!) to some new destiny. This strongly reminds me of the blockbuster Hollywood movies that are set outside the US, but habitually put an American, or at least a white person in the lead role, because the studios feel that the audience would be unable to relate otherwise - i.e. "Last Samurai" with Tom Cruise, that film with the Chinese Great Wall and Matt Damon, etc. Yes, we had Venli too, but she didn't actually interact or bond with the new singers. So, I really hope that this ostensibly Singer-focussed book doesn't follow suit.

Well, Gaz was the first to jump on the chance to be a decent person that Shallan offered in WoR, despite the danger, he hinted to her that he was ashamed of his past and also told her that even if she couldn't/wouldn't obtain the pardon for the deserters and they were all horribly executed, he'd still have been glad for the opportunity to act like a good person for a few weeks that she gave him. So, there was some kind of redemptive work going on in the background, as is fitting for a bit character. There might be more in RoW, but it isn't like even the central PoV characters necessarily apologize to the people whom they have wronged until much further into their Radiant development. BTW, it is an unfortunate human tendency to take their frustrations out on others who are even more powerless. Which the powerful constantly exploit to keep the heat away from themselves. Gaz hated his job as a sergeant of bridgemen and lived in constant fear of becoming one of them. This is not an excuse, but it is clear that he would have never sought this position of his own free will. I.e. he was not normally a sadist.

Shallan has claimed since WoR that her true self was a shattered, mute little girl lying in the dark, hasn't she? That could serve as her "child" alter in the light of going full DID and it could be argued that it didn't speak up until now because it is, well, mute. @hoiditthroughthegrapevine: The "Odium's champion" plot is done after OB, surely? And if Kaladin's depression doesn't make him less interesting by "insulating (him) from outcomes", why should Shallan's DID? Mind, I didn't like Shallan's personas in OB and also impatiently expected reintegration, but I like much better how things work in RoW so far and wouldn't be disappointed by a well-done equilibrium.

I asked Sanderson about it on reddit and, unfortunately, he doesn't remember if this was the case...

OK, so now that chapter 6 puts things in context, Leshwi, the teleporter Fused and Moash are clearly all parts of the trap set specifically for Kaladin, right? Either to kill him or to break and convert him. Leshwi lead him to where the teleporter was brutalizing townfolk by the nose, so that the Fused could lure Kal inside and use the fabrial on him, and if that gambit failed, there was Moash lying in wait in the storm cellar. So much for her potentially defecting, at least at this point. Also, I now tentatively revise my prediction of the unpleasant surprise waiting for Shallan in that hutch from a larkin to another such void fabrial, because I have noticed that there are stormlight lanterns in the chamber, which might either distract a larkin or allow Shallan to refuel quckly enough to survive. But without her surges and Patternblade, Shallan, unlike Kaladin, would be pretty helpless. They'd just need to behead her or inflict a lot of serious wounds quickly enough to overwhelm her capacity for healing.

They need to invent the luckspren/mandras-powered fabrials for on-board altitude control, then it would even be possible for them to use sails for propulsion, like in Navani's original designs. Would be just the matter of catching beneficial air currents, like the birds that rely mostly on gliding, such as condors, etc. do.

I assume that they'll be able to defeat the Fused currently on their tail, but their slow speed and multiple stops to pick up people will allow the much more numerous enemy reinforcements to catch up, so that their only chance of escape will lie in the dramatic action that I outlined above.