GameOfGroans

Well, Testament is supposed to be deadeyes by then, and Pattern was just starting with Shallan. It's likely that she made it to level 3 or something with Testament, but then had to start all over again with Pattern. I don't remember her ever actually saying the immortal words, though. I just presumed that a relatively simple truth was taken as the first ideal. I like your last idea, but RoW says there are still memories to be recovered, and they are not likely to be nice.

Well, you ignored all of my (and others') carefully presented arguments, so maybe you can understand a little ... frustration. I see. So you didn't come to discuss, but to vent hate. Good to know.

You keep repeating this oversimplified bias as if repeating it will make it true, while ignoring every post that gives quotes and explanations why it's not the case . Maybe you can change your username into "Ookla the Lightweaver".

While I'm not in such a bad state myself, I can resonate with Kaladin in many ways and I'm over and over again appreciative of Brandon's deep and complex understanding of human psychology. That said, in this book I felt he stretched out Kaladin's self-deprecating and hopeless thoughts a bit too long and made them too repetitive. I can understand he wanted to hammer it into the reader just how bad Kaladin felt, but he didn't go to such lengths even in WoK. The rhythm of the book just felt off this time. It might have been more effiective to make those passages poignant, but shorter.

Excellent Jokes aside, RoW clearly says there are still memories to be uncovered and a part of her to be integrated, 5th ideal or not. My spheres are on Helaran. There is a lot about him still covered in smokescreen. In OB, when Adolin tells Shallan Kaladin killed Helaran, Shallan repeatedly tells herself: "Tuck it down. Don't think about it." One could say it's bc she likes Kaladin too, but one could also then notice Shallan usually tucks down and forbids herself to think about things she feels guilty for. In fact, considering no one clearly recognized the man Kaladin killed, it's possible Shallan killed Helaran to protect their father at some point before killing father too. The two of them were close to physical violence quite a few times. So maybe they go at each other, Shallan stands between them, kills or causes Helaran to be killed, his Shards end up with a different Veden man? Or bc he is working for Nale, when Nale finds out Shallan is a surgebinder, he sends Helaran to kill her off? Especially considering Shallan killed her mother, so Nale has an excuse to get her executed. (Although, in that case, he probably wouldn't stop hunting her after Helaran's death. Maybe Helaran finds out by himself?) Pattern did mention there were lies in the way Mraize described Helaran's death. So Pattern knows there is something more Shallan doesn't know. Protecting her from knowledge? And Mraize wanted Shallan to remain splintered. Also, Radiant, the part of Shallan that is still not integrated, is the one able to deliberately wield Shardblade and kill if necessary (Ialai). So she's denying that part of herself bc she's still denying something she did. And maybe the last bit of Honor was hiding in Helaran, who knows

So it seems that each of Shallan's truth-ideals is that she killed somebody. And it seems to be going (arguably) towards worse and more painful memories. One could say unintentionally killing her spren cannot be worse than killing her mother or father, but considering the circumstances in which she remembers that - recognizing all the consequences for the war with Voidbringers, and potentially ruining Adolin's case and him ending up in prison for life - it can certainly cause just as much anguish and guilt. Now the Radiant is not integrated yet and it's explicitly said that there are still hidden memories for Shallan to recover. And considering she needs to do it to swear her highest ideal, I doubt it can be something much lighter than the rest. At one point in OB, Shallan herself wonders if she killed her brothers too, and is only hallucinating they are still alive, but Pattern says she didn't kill them. So who else? Did she have a little sister or something? All bets are off

One of the books mentions that dead (or "mostly" dead) spren can be revived if their Radiants swear their oaths again. But maybe not necessarily the same person? At the end of Adolin's court hearing, Maya and Adolin both kinda say at least a part of the first ideal (strength before weakness). Maybe they need to, idk, say it together?

Surprised that most posts here not only ignore that the champion needs to be willing, but also this quote from a Dalinar's vision: This disqualifies children, Adolin, most likely Szeth too - it's highly unlikely Odium at this point would be able to corrupt them that far, and make them willing champions too. On the other hand there is "something terribly familiar". The question is is it the familiarity of a person, or of a feeling (Thrill)? This sounds actually possible, based on the above. And it would make the audience more emotionally invested.

Certainly Kaladin would be very upset to hear about Rock's death, and since there's no such reaction in his POV, it's another reason to be optimistic.

To think that some people used to say Game Of Thrones was too complex

I see, thanks. So there are 3 gods bickering over Dalinar, not just 2. Poor guy.

So that would mean that Nightwatcher is an aspect of Cultivation?

Just a little detail, but got stuck in my mind. When Sja-anat visits Taravangian in prison, they chat about Cultivation, and Sja-anat says, quoting from memory, "She touched three people - a child, a general, and you." So the child is obviously Lift, but who is the general? Dalinar is the only general I can think of, but while he is obviously touched by both Odium and Honor, I don't remember any references of him being touched by Cultivation too. Somebody else? Any ideas?

It does seem weird for him to be killed off just like that, in one offhand sentence. I hope we get some answers in future.

Jasnah is not the only one, though. Remember Rushu? Literally "joined the ardentia to escape the advances of men."

OK, then a bit less but still plenty of time for Moash to get her before that and after he is free of Raboniel. Maybe one page instead of two.

Yet even after he frees himself of Raboniel's grip, Navani still gets 2 pages or so to chat and sing with the Sibling, which in normal circumstances would take at least 5 minutes, and probably much more. But then, Brandon does like to stretch every dramatic scene as long as he possibly can, and then some more. Time must be even more relative in the cosmere than over here.

Ishar is already a Bondsmith, no? Stands to reason he might be already bonded with something from much earlier. So maybe only 2 more were needed.

... Whaaa...? Please find me a quote that insinuates anything like that. She doesn't go into a victim role, she rejects the victim role, rejects the influence abuse used to have on her, refuses to believe her own self-dismissal anymore. The Sibling's acceptance of her has nothing to do with abuse, but with the fact she's the only one who is able to help him, the only one who figured out not only the anti-Odium tune, but also the rhythm of the Sibling itself. She worked her heart out, under enormous pressure, and maybe that moment is when Sibling finally becomes fully aware of that. This bears repeating. I cannot not wonder where all the insistent need of some people to deny Navani's value and dismiss her work and her results come from.

The scene where S kills T is preceded by a scene where S tells D he will not be in his service anymore bc "he found a higher ideal". He says he's gonna go to his homeland and do I don't quite remember what there, but one way or the other at this point he doesn't obey Dalinar anymore.

I don't think this point has been discussed yet, but Navani's flashback to Gavilar's abuse and rejection of it does not serve to force the Sibling. It serves for her to find inner strength, to not get stuck in whatever somebody might say to her, to not get lost in her self-criticism, but to recognize she knows herself best, which gives her the courage to keep going. So when she refuses the Sibling's judgment, it's not to convince the spren, but herself. This motivates her to keep looking for a solution, rather than feel helpless and give up immediately. In the end the Sibling finds her worthy when she finds the right rhythm to help it.

On an unrelated note, just how many Ooklas are there around here?

Very creative theory, but the book clearly says it's supposed to be "A willing champion from each of us and a fight to the death." What child (especially Gavinor) would be willing to fight and kill for Odium? Adolin also, obviously, wouldn't be a willing champion for Odium either. I believe Dalinar will lose, too. The clause about him joining the Fused if he loses sounds just like what Brandon would do. He likes to put characters in the worst possible situations and then let them scramble out or even turn it into their own favor. Whether Dalinar will be his own champion or somebody else, that's a question. He'll need a Shardbearer, but he can't (probably) use someone else's Shards while bonded to Stormfather (or any spren, I think?). If Dalinar loses it means his champion needs to die, which means it's not likely to be Kaladin bc he's too important for the story. Also, Dalinar already told Kaladin he won't ask it from him. I thought the previous books gave a lot of hints it would be Kaladin vs. Moash, but Moash is also now incapacitated. Somebody might be able to heal him within 10 days, though. Adolin is a duelist by his Calling (hint, hint), but if he's not a high level Radiant, sending him into such a duel is the same as executing him. He might be able to revive Maya, though. Seth is conveniently gone, most other characters are not strong enough, and I believe BS (what unfortunate initials) wouldn't make some side character a champion, bc the readers' emotional investment wouldn't be nearly so strong then. So it must be one of the main characters. In the end I think Dalinar will likely fight in his own name, bc if he loses he has to give up his soul anyway and he feels it's the most honorable thing to not risk anyone else. He loses, becomes immortal, in back 5 books he must serve Odium but in the same time finds a way to sabotage him, becomes Honor in the end. Maybe this sounds too predictable, though.

That would depend of the country, I guess. EU doesn't have a common policy when it comes to publishing books. Probably depends of the publisher who has the contract with Sanderson and released the previous books.

I tend to see such details simply as proof that authors of huge fantasy books don't have photographic memory and can't always make everything fit perfectly. Although, in Sanderson's case, such an attitude often means I miss a lot of foreshadowing.