Scion of the Mists

Kinda sounds like you're determined not to be happy with the books.

So this part seems impossible based on the simplified model of pushing we know. I think the most simple explanation is that origin of the push can be moved away from your center of mass. Similar to most uses of Allomancy, I don't think that Zane is aware of exactly how he's accomplishing this - I think it's just skill/intuition. (Side note: it is apparently possible to rotate your body to a different orientation without touching anything. There are videos from the ISS of astronauts "turning around" in space, which is fascinating. However, the motions required to accomplish this are not compatible with how Zane is described in the passage.)

I was also unable to find it. However, I remember it slightly differently: [OB spoilers]

There is a WoB "Stack Exchange" thread where you can post you question and have some WoB masters help you out.

A human's center of mass (while standing) is below their belly button. I'm pretty sure that Brandon has admitted that the description of the lines coming out of the chest was a mistake. A seated human would have a slightly higher center of mass. Regardless, it's likely below where a normal table surface would be. (Caveat that I could never quite grasp what that passage was trying to describe) I was extrapolating from the WOB that @Weltall posted: I would imagine that this quote about hovering a coin can't just apply to balancing a coin directly above your head. That would be a really strange way to talk about it, and not something that most people in-world would think was impossible (it's not really any different than the Allomancer balancing on top of a coin). While we've never explicitly seen anything described as a moved push/pull location, we have seen some strange behavior which differs from the simple center of mass to center of mass paradigm. Kelsier can push/pull on different parts of metal, spinning the bars. Zane can rotate himself in midair (not sure how this is possible without moving the push/pull origin).

Interesting.I don't remember that Kelsier heard a voice telling him "to survive".It's from Secret History? Maybe he's referring to Kelsier's voice telling them to "survive," and is implying that it's Kelsier that is communicating to Dalinar? IIRC, there are various theories that have Kelsier pulling the strings behind the scenes in a lot of the other books (e.g. Ghostbloods, etc.).

However, we also know that it's possible to push on individual components of something (e.g. a bullet and its casing). I don't have the exact quote (although I'm sure someone on here can provide it), but this shows that you can push on multiple things at once via a single blue line. Does it actually say that you can't just push in a general direction? Or does Kelsier only tell Vin to push on a single line. We've had a bunch of examples from both eras of people pushing on a lot of things at once (TLR example above, Wax blowing up the building), and it would seem unlikely that they're identifying every single bit of metal in a general direction and pushing on them all individually.

Assuming you push/pull from your center of mass, I don't think that push/pull strength should have anything to do with it. You'd have to push/pull with the same strength to cancel out the lateral forces, but that would cancel out the vertical forces too, leaving nothing to oppose gravity. However, if we interpret @Weltall's WOB as implying that it's possible to move your push/pull origin to somewhere else in your body (e.g. your hand), then you could levitate anything above any part of your body (e.g. a coin above your hand). However, if we take that one step further and assume that you can simultaneously have different push/pull origins, then you could indeed cancel out gravity and levitate anything, anywhere. Do you have more specifics or a quote or something? I don't remember this happening. I do remember Zane levitating and rotating via a coin on the ground.

Re: metalminds, what if your metalmind was inside of your body? I imagine that it would be possible for it to be merged into your spiritweb in such a was as to be considered part of your body. Otherwise, where would the line be drawn? What about prosthetic limbs, metal implants, or consumed food/drink?

Yes, it is related to the Awakener's identity.

I imagine that when Warbreaker talks about draining "color," it's referring less to color (the perception of light), and more to pigmentation (the physical characteristics of an object that determines how light is reflected). Even in the dark, things still have a "base color," regardless of whether or not they are currently reflecting light. A white object is white, as you've described. It can appear different colors based on what light is applied, but it's base color is white. If Awakening only cared about the apparent color (i.e. what kind of light was being actively reflected), all you would have to do would be filter the source light (as in your example of red light) to make it a color other than white. Or, you know, turn off the lights, and then everything appears black (i.e. the best color to use as Awakening fuel).

Presumably it can create more water than is expended.

Not sure if this matters to your overall point, but while an Allomancer or Surgebinder is technically "invested" all the time, it's only when they're actually using their abilities that they are "invested" enough to resist other investiture. (Putting invested in quotes because Brandon says that's not the right term)

This is how I originally thought of it, with the force generated being independent of any anchoring. However, it the books, it shows that anchoring the coin changes the magnitude of the force on the Allomancer:

Hoid is actually present in Warbreaker, but he is not one of the Returned.

I think I remember Brandon saying that Dragonsteel had been reduced down to something like 4-5 books due to the removal of Bridge 4/the Shattered Plains, but I can't seem to find the source.

Assuming equal forces are applied to both the Allomancer and the object, my key question is: how is the magnitude of that force determined? Is it dependent only on the masses of the Allomancer/object (my initial thought), or does it take into account the "anchor"?

Here's the WOB about condensation and phase change:

Yeah, this is what I was thinking. Except than instead of moving the planet a fixed distance, you're really imparting a small velocity onto it, which will persist indefinitely (as there's no drag in space). Regarding energy conservation, you're already "cheating" that every time you push on anything because you're converting investiture into kinetic energy.

It's called jumping... AFAIK, there's no such thing as the law of conservation of the center of mass. Maybe you're thinking of conservation of momentum (which gets at the same thing). Regardless, just because the center of mass of you+planet won't change, doesn't mean that both you and the planet stay fixed. You can both move, just in opposite directions.

If you want to see some really impressive math, go check out this other thread on steelpushing by @Pagerunner I believe this would mean that an Allomancer could accidentally flatten themselves by pushing against a coin as well, right? Additionally, how do you define what a single object is in terms of it acting as an anchor. Why would the the entire planet be an anchor and not just the dirt around your feet. Even if you're not standing on the ground, why does the air + planet not count as an anchor? Everything to do with anchors has always seemed to turn into a wibbly wobbly timey wimey Congitive hand-wavey thing, which is unsatisfying physics-wise.

This is absolutely not what autonomy means. Being forced to work together against their will is the opposite of autonomy.

I always think of it as an inverse square force (like gravity or electromagnetism): |F| = k*mallomancer*mcore / r^2 aplanet = |F| / (mcore + mrest) However, I'm not sure that this is consistent with how anchors work in the books. The issue I have with anchoring (i.e. counting non-metallic/non-allomancer mass) is how do you determine what counts as an anchor? If I'm standing on the ground, do I also get to push with the full weight of the planet?

It's a cognitive perception, not a visual perception. I think that, in this case, skill and perception are basically the same thing. Here are a bunch of older threads talking about the same thing: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/55386-mistborns-in-newcago/ http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3068-pushing-pulling-and-torque/ http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/17519-lengths-of-metal-and-burning-ironsteel/

I think you have to consider the weight of the entire planet as you are not moving the core alone but everything connected to it, right? E.g. If you were to steel push on the barrel of a gun then you still need to consider the weight of the wooden stock. Or a wooden ball with a core of lead; the Allomancer would need to consider the total weight when pushing on the lead, no? I only meant that with respect to to total force generated and the distribution of the force between the two objects. That is, the pushing interaction takes place between the metallic object and the Allomancer; however, the resulting movement of the object (i.e. the planet) does take into account the additional mass. Although maybe this gets into the fuzzy anchoring side of things (which is the part that makes the least sense to me).