Dreamstorm

Oh, very interesting, I hadn't noticed that before. She does do sketches of Kaladin as "Shallan" after that (or at least skilled ones, maybe she was Radiant) because she hides one from Adolin when they are in Kholinar (after leaving the stormshelter) and Adolin notes when he tries to break up with her that he's seen the Kaladin drawings.

I don't have anything of substance to add, but just wanted to note that I wasn't too enthralled with Renarin prior to OB, but his arc in OB, and mostly his viewpoints, have completely changed my interest level. I'm shocked by how much I took to him in just a few pages of writing. The hug from Rock and his explanation of his emotions with being touched... ahhhh. Possibly one of my favorite moments encapsulating a feeling and making you as the reader really understand it. (I'm not a "touchy" person myself, which is likely why I so strongly related.)

What do you mean by turning point (and where is it in the books)?

I don't think it's this at all (at least for the vast majority of the posts.) I think if after Part 1, Kaladin came back and he and Shallan settled into a friendship role - without the tons of text spent on her attraction to him, and trying to compartmentalize it, and confusion over how she feels, all of which happens right up until the very end (you say there was no story, but Sanderson wrote these elements into almost every scene in the book with the three of them) - then I think people who liked the idea of what might happen between Shallan and Kaladin would have been disappointed with the direction the story took, but you wouldn't see the reaction you see here. I, like many people here have said, actually like Shallan together with Adolin, so I would have been happy with a well-crafted storyline that ended up with the exact same outcome we have here. BUT instead we got something which seemed to be running in one direction (and wasting a lot of text) to just get slammed into a neat little conclusion that feels inconsistent with the prior storyline. Btw, I think you are absolutely right that Shallan and Kaladin don't know each other. But I haven't heard anyone arguing that Shallan should have took Adolin's "out" and ran to Kaladin and immediately started a serious relationship. I would be just as annoyed with that ending.

I don't think most people here are upset about the fact that main female character and main male character didn't end up together. It's that a dynamic was built up throughout almost two books, and then suddenly "solved" in a the blink of an eye in a way that didn't follow the previous development. To use your analogy, if you just replace the last pages of a script without totally rewriting the whole script, you end up with a story that doesn't hang together. Unfortunately, that seems to be what happened here. I completely agree with this (and the rest of your post.) The thing that I find frustrating is it would have been amazing character development (in my mind) if when Adolin came to tell Shallan he was going to step aside, Shallan's reaction would have been the same "I'm not a prize" speech but instead of jumping into marriage, saying she didn't want to be with anyone right then as she had a lot to sort out with herself. (Broken or not, if you're flipping between two people, it's probably a sign you shouldn't commit to either of them at that exact moment, no?) I actually think that would have flowed nicely and set up much stronger character development.

Like many have written earlier (and as someone who enjoys well-written romance), the "love triangle" development was quite poorly done. The reason I was excited about it was because in WoR it was treated in an understated way but helped move the characters along (Kal realizing one could be happy even if bad things happens, Shallan realizing she could admit some of her terrible past, and Adolin trying in a relationship for once.) I personally think the triangle is over - it feels like a plot line Sanderson started, and perhaps got a little deeper into because the chasm scenes turned out so beautifully, but then when he tried to develop it in OB, it fell flat. Below is what I *think* he was trying to accomplish (though I admit for Shallan, it's a mess): Adolin: Realization and acceptance that he's no longer "it" in every respect. I don't think he ever thought there would be a more prestigious/powerful choice than him romantically (he's not egotistical, but definitely confident that he was the most eligible bachelor in Alethkar.) With the Radiants, and seeing how Shallan reacts to Kaladin, he has to face that he's not on top anymore, which he does with grace. Also the fact he thinks Shallan will leave him now that he's not "it", and then she doesn't, allows him to make progress in the idea that he doesn't always HAVE to be "it". (Possibly some of the reason he stood up to Dalinar about the king business?) The love triangle business does the most for him. Kaladin: His big realization vis a vis Shallan is that some people make him feel lighter and happier (like Tien.) I'm not 100% sure his feelings were romantic (as the only reason he even very slightly pursued her was after a lot of urging from Syl, and most of his internal monologue about Shallan is being confused about the fact she's so mean to him.) The books didn't go into it (because I think the K/S scene on the boat was focused on their interaction being so awkward - at least it was to me, lol), but I think there's something in there, not well developed, about how it's OK for him to feel sadness and he doesn't have to force feelings down (and less idolizing of people who can shove feelings down.) I could see him accepting his feelings of sadness and using them as a strength (kind of like Dalinar with his past) being a plot point for him going forward. The other part of what Sanderson was trying to accomplish is that I definitely think we will get a romantic arc for Kaladin before the end of the 5-book series; Syl's obsession with him being paired off is unlikely to be dropped, and he acknowledged to Syl that it would be good to have a partner. So the triangle moved him into a character who could have romantic feelings (after zero in WoK and just briefly with Shallan in WoR - it's mentioned many times that his men are finding partners and yet Kal seems baffled/hesitant by the idea.) Shallan: She is.... as mess. I *think* we are supposed to think Adolin sees the "real" her and grounds her and that's what she needs? It was just poorly done, though, as she seems to only make a decision to get married to him as a way to keep him... I'm going to assume that we as the reader were supposed to think that Adolin was the healthiest, best choice for her? But it was just not done in an convincing way... She seems more confused and broken than ever. Basically mooning over your crush while waiting for your fiance, dramatically telling your fiance you want to get married NOW after fiance tries to give you space, and then being ALL OVER your fiance in public just strikes me as so... wrong. Or like it was written by a teenage girl. But I think we're supposed to see this as resolved? As someone else mentioned, marriage is pretty sacrosanct in Sanderson's books, so I feel like he considers this final. Overall... there was no reason for this. Adolin could have has his crisis of importance without involving Kaladin. Kaladin's outcomes from the triangle seem fairly unnecessary. Shallan's realization that she wants Adolin was just... abrupt and poorly done. I guess Sanderson wanted there to be a "choice" for Shallan so there was some "conflict"? But in the end, I think he gave up on the plot thread and so just phoned it in in the execution.

Yes! Created by Ruin and Preservation when they set up their compromise, right? I remember reading somewhere (AU?) that was one of two instances where humans/humanoids did not pre-date the planet's shards. (Or maybe it was the other way around. I'm definitely out of my league on Cosmere knowledge, so apologies if I keep f-ing stuff up. On that note, if anyone wants to answer my Q&A on shards and shattering, I'd greatly appreciate it )

Yes, that's what I was thinking on species. Reproductive viability is the key (horses can actually also produce live, but sterile offspring with zebras!) I read a WoB somewhere today that there were three strains of humanoid on Yolen pre-shattering. (I'll try to find it later unless anyone else knows it.) We know that both humans and Parshendi arrived prior to the shards though, so I don't think the Investiture can be the reason for the difference. (My understanding of Investiture is fairly elementary though, so could very well be incorrect about this.) Do we know if humanoids came from anywhere other than Yolen?

No clue if producing offspring is still biologically possible or if it happens in the modern day, and I know of nothing in-world which addresses the point (one way of the other - so I don't believe it's ruled out) or outside of the WoB which was pointed out to me earlier by @Calderis. This fact, that humans and parshendi could produce viable offspring such that they had descendants, radically changed my perception of the interactions between the two species (can we even call them species...?, the WoB uses the word "humanoids"), but perhaps the shock of learning this today is making me put too much weight on the fact.

EXCEPT if they knew they could mate with them and produce offspring. That changes the whole calculus. (Whether they knew this or not remains to be seen.) You have an excellent point that Alethi at least had human slaves, so they likely didn't care either way about the morality of owning parshman.

But how do you decide what constitutes a "people" species versus an "animal" species? Especially since for thousands of years, the only interactions Rosharan humans had with the species was parshman, who it has been said could not function without human direction. This is part of why I was so shocked that humans and parshman/parshendi could interbreed, and since they could produce reproductively viable offspring, that means the genetics are very, very close. Assuming this was known to Rosharan's (given this fact, I can't imagine there wasn't raping of parshman women and illegitimate children produced that way, just like happened in the pre-emancipation South), then I agree it becomes a pretty black and white argument. (For me at least.) Where does one draw the line? Take primates in our world - there are definitely groups who think primates should be treated differently than other animals, but I think your average person thinks of them as animals, like a horse or a cow is an animal. We do not have any domesticated primates, but let's assume chimpanzees were domesticated. Would it be wrong for humans to own chimpanzees and use them the way we use horses and cows? Edited to add: @king of nowhere made much of the same point as above while I was typing!

Wow, thank you, mind blown. I was one who was struggling with the "is it slavery if its a different species with mental capacity far below human levels" re. the parshman (i.e. it's not slavery to own and use a horse), but this puts the issue in a different context. Given there are descendants, this means the human-parshendi offspring are not sterile (like e.g. mules) which shows a fairly high level of genetic compatibility. Makes me reconsider the possibility of a human/parshendi romance...

Are you trying to say humans and Parshendi can interbreed?

@SLNC I actually see the "period talk" as a bad fact for Shadolin. I've read enough annotations to know that Sanderson likes to ask for other perspectives from those he is close to in order to build realistic characters, and I can see him asking his wife what is the most annoying thing a man could do... and blaming anything (irritability, tiredness, etc.) on it being "that time of the month" is wayyyyyy up there. Sure, a woman can use it as an explanation (or excuse), but a man bringing it up is ughhhhhhh. (Obviously my personal feelings heavily influence this view ) That aside, I still think this is the most genuine we've seen Shallan portrayed around Adolin. Not really the banter part, but the fact she's a total mess and not presenting her best self appearance-wise (that seems to be important to her - she wants to look as good as possible to match how hot she finds him) and admitting she was doing a shady activity. Now, I agree all of the "issues" one can point to in the relationship are still there - he doesn't ask what she found out in her adventure, doesn't get her (kind of stupid) quip or even realize it was a quip, and he's really just involving her the way he's involved other romantic interests in the past - dragging the girl along on his investigations (i.e. that girl he took on the girth investigation in WoK.) But, I still saw this as a "relationship building" scene rather than a "relationship diminishing" scene due to Shallon's opening up. Since I firmly believe this relationship is not going to last (a bait and switch to throw out the Kaladin romantic angle entirely would be really shoddy plotting and I personally think Sanderson won't do the "Kaladin gets jilted by a lighteyed girl" angle again since Laral served that purpose), I'm now hoping this means the catalyst of the breakup will be more interesting than "Adolin and Shallan do not fit well" (an argument I'm on the fence about myself.) But, this may be wishful thinking Re. Sadeas, I don't agree that Shallan will be personally offended that Adolin didn't tell her about the Sadeas killing. She isn't truthful to really anyone and doesn't seem to expect people be truthful back to her. I do absolutely agree that in general lack of trust and sharing in any relationship is a problem (hence why I see sharing the alley adventures as a positive sign), but I don't see this revelation as the "something" which will break them. And I am starting to really think (and hope - hope is a bad thing!) that the "something" will be unexpected (i.e. exciting to read.)

Four questions: (1) Can a shard be splintered before its vessel dies? Specifically asking here because I believe the Stormfather is a splinter of Honor (as are honorspren) so wondering if they could have existed prior to Honor being splintered. (2) Do we know how shards are splintered? (3) If a shard is splintered, can it ever be reformed? (4) Does a splintered shard still influence the world around it? (I'm thinking yes per SA, but I don't have a clear understanding of Investiture and how it interacts with there being a shard on the planet/in the system.) Just to explain my own understanding... each shard is contained in a vessel (a human which holds it.) The vessel can die, but the shard can remain whole and intact and someone else can take it up (i.e. for Preservation, first Kelsier (I know this was a bit unusual and he used the weird Ire orb thing - can't say I really understand what went on there), then Vin, then finally Sazed who combined it with Ruin.) If a vessel dies, then the shard itself can be splintered (somehow, see Q2), which means a billion pieces of the shard are scattered about. And that's where my understanding ends

Dalinar's flashback chapter this week might be my favorite chapter so far I read the transcription from a reading and so was waiting for it, but I don't know what it is about it, but I find it hilarious and also quite informative (in a less gruesome way) about the past nature of Dalinar, Navani, Sadeas and Ialai. I'm finding myself loving the Sadeas/Ialai connection in a way I didn't in WoK and WoR (they weren't on our side!) and am wondering if we may get a bit of a THR redemption for one of both of them... (or I may just hope we do ) Overall this week made my dying for more flashback Dalinar (I haven't read Unfettered so don't know the next flashback chapter ), dying for more Shallan/Adolin/Ialai, and well, hoping Kaladin moves at some point. (I could take or leave modern day Dalinar though. Too much set-up.)

This last installment of the Shallan and Adolin romance definitely goes to Team Shadolin! For me, this read as by far the most authentic Shallan has ever been with Adolin. (Nearly gasped when she admitted to him being out in a sketchy part of Urithiru by herself!) Since I think there's some pretty serious foreshadowing that the relationship is not going to last (at least in the near future) given the obvious Kaladin as future-romantic-interest foreshadowing and even more subtle things like the title to this chapter (Set Up to Fall - I think this doesn't just refer to the Mraize reveal), I'm so, so interested to find out how Sanderson is going to accomplish that. At some point, he's going to have to pull a dramatic trigger to drive them apart (as a gradual growing apart doesn't seem to be where this is heading...), and I have no clue what that will be. I find it hard to believe Shallan would be that upset about the Sadeas murder (I don't think it would destroy her thoughts as Adolin as "just, moral and capable"?), but I've been wrong before... I just have the feeling it will be "something" we don't expect (which, to be clear, is not Shallan falling for Kaladin; will feel let down if that's the only place where we're headed.) I'm quite excited about the romance (hopefully) leading us to plot points which are not, well, strictly romantic or "character building" in nature. @Aleksiel (sorry for not quoting - I couldn't figure out how to type before a quote, grrr) I'm totally with you on 1 and 3 above. The thing that blows my mind is that books with those cliches are still exceedingly popular and, out of all of the thousands and thousands of books which could be chosen for publication, still chosen because they remain so profitable (i.e. lots of people buy them). (Victoria Aveyard's Red Queen series and Sarah J. Maas' Throne of Glass series come to mind as best-sellers in recent years which I couldn't finish due to those romantic cliches; both are also well-reviewed.) I don't mind 2 nearly as much, likely because I have had that happen to me in real life (started out in an antagonistic relationship with someone who became a long-term partner and is still a close personal friend), so to me that seems less like a contrivance and more a scenario that happens due to the way human emotions work. But, I agree it's a trope that one could (and obviously many do) find cliched. I'm wondering if Sanderson watched She's All That for inspiration - kind, rich, popular jock protagonist (check) with father with lots of expectations protagonist's not sure he wants to live up to (check) and odd, interesting sibling (check) meets quirky artistic girl (check) with a witty sidekick (Pattern, check) in a contrived situation (arranged marriage isn't as bad as a bet but let's go with it...check) and after some drama (everstorm, unwanted advances at prom, same thing... check), they live happily ever after

@Aleksiel I'm not sure how common the "hot/popular/rich jock falls for quirky girl" trope is in epic fantasy, but I'd argue it's used incredibly often in creative works in general (i.e. every teen movie ever.) I think you have a very good point that trope and cliche have different meanings (and that @PlanetReelo maybe was not thinking about the difference between them - they can let us know.) A trope is a common theme or storyline, whereas a cliche (in this context) is an overused common theme. I see this as debate between what is objective (both the Shadolin and Shalladin romantic storyline are/would be tropes) versus subjective (which of those tropes you personally find to be a cliche). I think that was the point of @PlanetReelo's first post; both are tropes so you can't hate Shalladin solely based on the fact it is a trope (as the Shadolin romanance is too). But of course you can (anyone can... it's called having an opinion) find one trope more or less appealing and more or less of a cliche than the other. As far as tropes in WoK and WoR (keeping in mind it's up to your subjective interpretation whether or not these are cliches), off the top of my head... obscure boy becomes powerful, obscure girl becomes powerful, jealousy of powerful older brother, overbearing father in son's otherwise perfect life, brother who loves younger brother despite his weirdness, death of a mentor and mentee forging on, betrayal of best friend... A book you could read which contains many of these tropes is the Bible, if you're so inclined

Haha, whatever it was must have gone way over my head, as I thought SH ended right after the events of Era 1 Maybe it will become clear when I do Era 2...

You're talking about Kelsier? I just finished HoA too I was surprised how much I ended up liking Spook; I agreed with Spook himself that he seemed a little useless in the prior two books... I liked that self-awareness in the character. I was also with Sazed that, damnation I missed Tindwyl. She was the best part of WoA, IMO. Favorite overall character has to go to Breeze - he is just hilarious. Loved his relationship with Allrianne. @robardin interesting re. advice to wait before going onto Era 2. I am listening to SH now, but was debating doing Era 2 prior to Oathbringer or something else... I think I'll save until post-Oathbringer hangover

I think the question of stormlight healing depression was asked and answered below. Based on this, the "can Radiants become alcoholics" debate depends on whether you see alcoholism as a "disease" which can be cured or a lifelong part of someone's "personality" that needs to be continually managed. Alcoholics Anonymous takes the latter view; once you are an alcoholic, you are always an alcoholic, no matter what symptoms you are manifesting at any given time.

I will have to think about this... I was more focused on what attribute I think would make an interesting story (to me), and I could see where Chaos, and the moral ambiguity of its effects, would be intriguing. The more I think about it, I don't really understand what constitutes a "divine attribute"... using the dictionary definition an attribute is "a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something". I would argue that any God (who presumably is a force of creation) would require both Chaos and Order to accomplish that purpose. Chaos and order combined is life - and they are necessary for life to be maintained. But I'm not really religious, so instead of "God" I think "Life Force", which could skew my view. (And I know Brandon is Mormon, which is more akin to Christianity, so he'd likely be more in line with your views.) Elantris is next on my list, and I'm curious how Dominion is treated. Same with Ambition in Shadows for Silence etc. So far the shards I've encountered can be easily categorized as "good" or "bad" (I know we're supposed to see Ruin and Preservation are needed for balance, but Ruin was totally the bad guy in Mistborn Era 1!) I don't think you can say the same with Dominion or Ambition, but perhaps I'll have a different view after reading those books. Anyway, massive digression from Odium's champion... Not to mention she killed Tyn and could feel like she killed Jasnah (by dissolving the boat/setting it on fire - Navani accuses her of this at first.) Jasnah coming back into Shallan's life sooner rather than later would make me feel better...

Chaos would be a great shard name though! (Maybe too close in effect to Ruin? Though disorder does not necessarily equal destruction as disorder can actually lead to creation, e.g. evolution.)

I hoped we were going to get that flashback after Chapter 16! Maybe next week... I like that it's more light-hearted than the other Dalinar flashbacks so far, well as light-hearted as you can get when

@Stark I can get behind this. End of book 5 Odium is stopped for a time being and contained; humanity, now realizing the threat and more united, rallies in the interim; end of book 10 Odium is "destroyed" or "permanently neutralized" (but how that is possible without having other horrible consequences or the same solution as Mistborn Era 1, a possibility seemingly rejected by Sanderson and also redundant, who knows.) Part of the reason I read fantasy is because despite how things get very, very, very bad, you usually get a payoff in the end where the bad guy is defeated. And that payoff, if well done, provides all the feels which makes all the pain worthwhile. I'll be disappointed at the end of this (20 years from now, lol), our ultimate bad guy is still around