Dreamstorm

Ugh, your reasoning is very solid, which does not make me happy I'm totally fine with Adolin being the light, fun, agreeable, non-dramatic foil to the rest of our characters who provides support and gentle nudging in their more substantial arcs. From a Shallan perspective, I don't want her self-revelation to come from distress over Adolin's death - I think it would weaken that revelation, and also (assuming this happens) weaken any future relationship with Kaladin. But, laid out like that, it does make literary sense @invisbleblue welcome aboard the SS Shalladin!

What I'm trying to do is see what kind of evidence is on the Shadolin side equivalent to those little things you mentioned. For instance, in the scene where Shallan chooses Adolin, she is sitting down and then when Kaladin lands on the wall, she stands up. If that had been reversed, I would see that as a subtle clue that Brandon was guiding the reader towards Adolin being the "correct" choice. I want to see if anyone can find those foreshadowing, less obvious moments which point to Adolin. Otherwise, I don't see how you can ignore the Kaladin foreshadowing. But this is your personal, emotional opinion. There's nothing wrong with that, but you're not going to convince anyone whose personal, emotional opinion is that Adolin is more stable for Shallan and that she should choose stability rather than the more intense relationship with Kaladin (or whatever any given Shadolin fan's opinion is - any and all of them are valid.) My point is that we can vary in our personal opinions in who is the better choice for Shallan - that's so personal and very much shaped by our diverse experiences. But, there IS an absolute truth about where the author is pointing us (or there should be, and based on what Brandon says in lectures, he subscribes to this), and so there is likely a way to objectively, taking one's emotions out of it, tease out that truth. I don't see any "teasing out" going on with Adolin and I see so storming much with Kaladin, that I was fully won over to the Shalladin side. I think you are quoting someone else... but what was really said what Adolin picks up on subtle clues which are related to Shallan's Lightweaving and so he notices when she is changing. ("I'm pretty sure that Brandon said/implied that Shallan was unconsciously doing subtle Lightweaving each time her personas were shifting here.") I personally speculate that this isn't that profound - I think it's just eye color (Shallan is lighteyed, Veil is darkeyed, Radiant is presumably glowing-eyed), but that's just speculation on my part. On the second, Brandon didn't say it was a big development, he said that she had made some progress but had a ways to go. ("The answer was that Wit would consider her to have made a step forwards, but still has a ways to go.") Big difference in the emphasis! Also, the WoB on the fact Shallan is one person in the spiritual realm I think contradicts that idea that she's actually becoming different people when she becomes Veil and Radiant - so there was no "real" Shallan for Adolin to see. She is all of them wrapped together. @Bliev Just wanted to add that your interpretations of the scene and what it meant to Shallan are totally valid, so I don't want to knock them. My big thing about that scene is that Shallan is sitting down when she talks with Adolin (and he sees the real her or whatever) and then she stands up when Kaladin lands. This has enormous symbolism for Shallan's character as the author told us (very explicitly) in her chapter with Wit called "The Girl Who Stood Up." This is the stuff I can't get past - that's such an easy tweak for Brandon to have Shallan standing up when she talks to Adolin and then sit down when Kaladin lands. The fact it's written the way it is means that it is either intentional (wants us to see this symbolism and know that it means something) or sloppy (forgot he established this symbolism in the first place/doesn't follow through with it.) I just can't see another way to interpret it, and I choose intentional over sloppy.

So, I'm going to have to disagree a little bit here because I think there's a difference between wishful thinking in how you want the character arcs to proceed and analyzing what the author puts in front of you. Maybe some fans were predisposed to want Kaladin and Shallan to be together before you even opened the book, but I bet most of us weren't. I'm going to paste in something I wrote in a PM that I think pertains to this... I think shipping has two components: (i) who you as a reader want to see character S end up with and (ii) what clues you're picking up from the author about who character S will end up with. I see (i) as being very contentious in fandoms (and a lot of what I see on 17th shard - arguments about how Kaladin is better for Shallan because of x,y,z versus Adolin for a,b,c) and something which is impossible to resolve - based on our varying experiences, we as people want different things from relationships so readers will have varying views about what they want for the character! (For example, I'm not even team Shalladin from this perspective, as I personally think Kaladin would be better with a younger Jasnah type - probably because Jasnah is my type of female protagonist, so that's what I want our main hero to want/get.) BUT (my huge but), I see (ii) as pretty objective in a well-written book; the author should be leading you down the path of selecting one option. That doesn't mean people who like one character versus another based on (i) will always be happy, but it should make sense in retrospect that the author was leading you there all along. Besides the fact I hate how Shallan made her Adolin decision (a reaction which falls into (i) since it is emotional and related to what I, myself, want to see), I find it very clear from a literary perspective that (ii) is leading to Kaladin. And if it's not, Brandon has really screwed it up from a literary perspective because although we can argue the emotional appeal of either choice until we're blue in the face, I see all of the subtle clues leading to Kaladin. Maybe it's a big red herring, but I don't think Brandon is that kind of author. I will definitely have disappointment if things don't proceed like I expect because I will have less trust in the author's craftsmanship, so I want to avoid that disappointment I feel like for me (and likely some others), the only wishful thinking that is going on is that I am hopeful that where it seems the author is leading us ((ii) in the above) is where we are actually going. I strongly want that to be the case, so yes, I am interpreting the WoBs and such from that perspective, but I don't think it's tied to my emotional response to the characters; it's tied to not wanting to have been misled (either intentionally or through poor execution.) One thing I would love to see from anyone is foreshadowing/literary subtext in support of Shadolin. I totally feel convinced from what we overtly see on the page that they could have a productive relationship (don't want to argue this point since I know others differ in this view), but I don't feel guided into that conclusion by less obvious means. Can anyone find something?

I realize I may be in the minority, but I loved Kaladin in parts four and five. I connected with Kal's character more in those two parts than in the prior 2.5 books. It's not that they were the most exciting or awe-inspiring or conclusive, but because they made me relate to him more as a human. Previously, I felt like although I know there were setbacks for Kal, it was in the context of him being a superhero, even before he got stormlight. He was a super spearman in Amaram's army, then a super bridgeman, then a super guard, then a super Radiant who was the one being super and seeing all these things no one else saw. It wasn't so much the failure in Kholinar, but how he reacted after - with vacillation between self-doubt and determination and being a little incoherent in his focus. The scenes where Syl comforts him after he can't say the fourth oath and when Rock kills Amaram are two of my favorites in the book (maybe favorite Kal scenes in all books.) Because it made him seems more human (and a 20yo boy at that) and less superhero. Likely not how most people feel, but his character rose the most in my mind in this book, not due to doing amazing things but instead by becoming way more real.

Oh yes, the suggestive writing (crediting @PhineasGage for pointing out some choice parts to me)... it's really a rabbit hole you can go down if you so choose... This is a new one for me though, thanks for pointing out!

So out of place that the disorientation over the ending feels almost intentional... To channel Pattern, mmmmm, a wonderful lie.

Couple quick points (since I was reading WoB last night), that it is confirmed that Book 4 will be Eshonai's book. It's now confirmed via WoB that Radiants do not have extended life. They are super healthy though, so would assume they live longer on average. Note he says "not usually" so there may be exceptions to this. This is exactly where I am - I think it would cheapen all of the Shalladin foreshadowing too if Shallan only ends up with Kaladin because Adolin is dead. I don't think it's a stretch at all for Brandon to do a divorce. In a time when drastic changes are happening in Alethi society (there is a heretic woman on the throne!!), I wouldn't even see this as that dramatic for our characters in-world. Also, I really don't want Adolin to die, so therefore he won't I like being pushed to see the other side because if my views can withstand scrutiny, I think they are so much stronger for it! That being said, I've gone on the complete opposite journey. I think there are so many little ways to add more certainty to Shallan's decision that if that's what Brandon wanted, he would have chosen to do so. Not to mention Shallan's decision shows the least agency of any of Brandon's characters I've read (or, the least agency in making a supposed forward step in the character), so I also don't buy it. Again, some small things in the "choosing Adolin" scene could have been tweaked to sell it to me. Plus, there's no reason to have Kaladin foreshadowing in the actual scene where Shallan chooses Adolin if that's really the end game. But, keep the arguments coming! I'm also worried I'll be disappointed so I want to become entrenched, LOL. I think the WoB that Shallan is one in the spiritual realm counteracts the idea that he is trying to say Shallan should let Veil and Radiant fade into the background. She may feel better without the back and forth in her head, but since these are integral parts of one "whole" Shallan (and being one person in the spiritual realm very strongly says that to me), they have to be acknowledged and integrated so that physical realm Shallan reflects spiritual realm Shallan.

@maxal Just my two cents (FWIW) is that the beta readers were used to pressure test how he wanted the book to come across to readers. This means they may have reacted to a certain storyline and he was like, yes, that’s how I wanted them to react. Or they reacted in a certain way, and he was like, hmmm, I should tweak so I get my intended reaction. Note his intended reaction may not be that a certain storyline in neatly wrapped up! He may want readers wondering what happened to the Sadeas murder plot. We don’t know. But we do know that for some storylines (i.e. the romance arc) he took a lot of feedback and tweaked the storyline to try to get across what he wanted to get across. But we don’t know what he wanted to get across. And we don’t know why. (And neither do the betas, though they may have slightly more of an idea based on what feedback was taken and ignored or how a plot was modified as related to the feedback.) @Chaos let me know if I’m mischaracterizing this! I appreciate all this insight!

In real life, there are just some people which are a little more simple (ETA I don’t mean stupid, I just mean less troubled), have fewer mental health issues, even despite what they’ve been through. Sometimes these are the best people to spend time around, and sometimes I feel that’s what Adolin provides - he’s just so pleasant to spend time around. He does/did have a bit of an anger management problem where Sadeas was concerned, but it seems like it takes A LOT to push him to the brink. I also know people like that, so that’s not unrealistic either. In my opinion we’re not done with the Sadeas murder plot, and there’s something clearly going on with Maya, plus Adolin is the big link to Rira/Iri (IMO) through his mother and his shardplate (and we can be pretty sure that part of Roshar will be involved in future books), so I see a lot of places for his character to go in future books. Some see him as possibly going dark, though I personally don’t get that from his character except when really pushed, so that’s another potential direction for his character to go. Mostly I don’t want him to die! I find his contributions too enjoyable. As one poster said - he just makes you feel good.

LOL'd a lot at this. Tell us how you really feel! I feel silly because you guys just slapped me in the face with a huge duh - I just now connected that Kaladin's worst traits are those about which he really bonds with Moash. I totally got the "parallel arcs but making different choices" angle, but for some reason the fact that Moash accentuates the bad parts of Kaladin was lost of me despite the whole storming Elhokar storyline in WoR. (Side note, we really need the monkey with hands over eyes emoji on here for moments like this.) So, I'm kind of the opinion now that Moash was never supposed to be a "good" character, even when he was on our side. I don't know if that adds more depth to him character for me, but it does make me appreciate the scope of when he started being set up as the bad guy... kind of from the start. I guess the most interesting thing is that Kaladin was still sympathetic to him at the beginning of OB (Roshone punch), so Kaladin hasn't internalized this (I don't remember how Kaladin processes Moash post-Kholinar as I remember his thoughts being focused on the parshman/wall guard.) I wonder if this will ever hit Kaladin and what the repercussions will be. I wonder if we can even trust Moash's account of the Roshone affair, which I know was partially validated by Dalinar. (I wonder if I'm reading too much into this )

This is incredibly interesting and thank you for fleshing out the process! I had a different impression from reading the articles on Tor (didn't read the reddit thing because reddit confuses me), and my impression was not aligned with the reality. Appreciate you explaining!

I think it's less about what choice is being judged, as it is frankly impossible to be everything a woman is supposedly supposed to in order to be a satisfactory woman, but that every choice is judged. I think stay at home moms are judged for not pursuing careers. On the flip side, women in high-powered careers are judged for not wanting to be mothers. Women who choose to neither be a mother nor have a high powered career are also judged. The judgment works on all sides. So, I may have this wrong, but I don't think beta readers are the literary critics in this process. I think editors from the publisher are the ones who read the book to make sure it works as a literary document, and then the betas are superfans who are mainly there to spot continuity details and other misses and also give in-the-moment reactions. For instance, I don't know how much a beta reader would look back on the book as a whole and say, well X character wasn't that fleshed out, or Y plotline doesn't have continuity from point A to B. I could be wrong, but I know they received the books in sections and commented real time, so they wouldn't even have the full product as they were commenting, plus the reactions I saw were more shock and awe type of things, not actual critiques. This may be incorrect though! I do think they were chosen for being superfans, so at the very least, it wasn't a group which would be inclined to give intense negative substantive feedback (as that does require a certain emotional detachment from the author and the story.) (ETA @Chaos that's very interesting not all are superfans; I had the impression that they were. Sounds like I'm incorrect about how the whole process works.) That being said, I was initially a bit disappointed with the book and some of the storylines. (I felt the romance was quite off especially, and I love romance, so I was looking forward to that being a satisfying story.) However, after rereading parts, I'm much happier with it. It's not at all the book WoR was, but I do find it close to WoK - it feels like a book where a lot of track being laid and not a lot is really happening. Yeah, Dalinar is cemented as our Bondsmith, but even that seems like setup for what he's going to do with it. WoK had a tighter focus on three characters, so I think it felt more cohesive. WoR was explosive, but it also ended in a fundamental shift in the very nature of the story with the move from an Alethi-centric plot to Urithiru. I see OB as the book where track is being laid for our now expanded worldview and expanded cast of characters. I don't think many of the plotlines were actually resolved (e.g. I'm pretty sure the Sadeas murder isn't going away), and I'm choosing to believe that was intentional. I also found the character development of most of the characters really brought me deeper into their psyche, even if not everyone liked where that character went. (All three of our mains had significant development - more so than in either of the prior book IMO - as did a number of side characters such as Rock and Teft and soon to be mains such as Jasnah and Renarin. Adolin (and Navani) were not among those who got much development, so I can see disappointment from those who wanted that.) This is all a tangent, but I was pretty critical of the book initially but have revised my opinion as I sat with it. It is, however, not the book WoR was, but nor do I think it was trying to be. I think this may be intentional and also one of the plotlines which is nowhere near to resolved (Shallan's emotional development), but I could be wrong. (And I know many are over this aspect of her character anyway.)

Yeah, we have vastly different viewpoints, and I bolded where I see the crux of our divergence. I think your opinion aligns with generally what is expected of women in modern, Western society, which is part of the reason why I like to see the polar opposite reflected in fiction, if only to balance out what we see in real life. (I fully realize this is just my personal opinion btw.) There is a whole body of sociology works examining the fairly pervasive criticisms of women who choose to prioritize their career and self over family and spouse. It’s very hard to “have it all” and men aren’t expected to “have it all”; they are typically allowed to focus on careers and ambitions without facing such criticism. My question to you would you still call a man selfish for seeking to further his career and ambitions or is this only an expectation of women? I totally see where you’re coming from, and I agree that a woman making choices like Shallan did at the end of OB is very realistic; it’s what women do and have done time and time again throughout history. I like to see what I bolded, but I can also see your perspective that it’s overdone; we just disagree about that because I think it’s necessary to overdo to balance out what happens in actual society. Btw, I think romance and love can fit into a strong female character arc and with a strong female IRL, but I’m not a fan of women (characters or IRL) making choices that are dependent on the views of men as I dislike the lack of agency.

Like a lot of people expressed, I was hoping for a bit more here. There were two points where I thought Moash could turn about - one was his first viewpoint when the Fused caught his caravan and he relied on his Bridge Four strength and the second was when he had the deja vu moment when he was put on the bridge crews of the Fused army. Neither had the redemptive effect, and I did think the gap between his deja vu moment and when he met Kaladin's wall crew and killed Elhokar didn't allow me to see if the second moment caused any emotional development. Right now, I feel like he's too much the "bad guy" where we are supposed to see nuance based on the fact we understand his history and where his anger comes from. I always find it more powerful to meet a bad guy (TLR for instance) and then later learn redemptive aspects of his character. Since I do think Moash is set up as a big bad guy, especially since he will have an inevitable re-clash with Kaladin, I hope we get more development from him. I'm doing a WoK re-read, and I'm finding him to be surly and hateful from the start, which makes me wonder how he and Kaladin became so close based on anything besides the fact Moash was a good fighter. He doesn't seem to behave in any way which would make him worth Kaladin's trust.

Thank you for this. When people say they don't like Shallan, part of me always wants to yell "that's because she's female!!!", but I know it's not that simple. And I know I do this too (in a different way.) I want Shallan to embody the independent, self-actualized woman with agency because that's how I want to see women portrayed in fiction. But that's not realistic. I'm struggling with this (especially the fact the Shallan at the end of OB finds happiness by a man choosing the real her), because I know that if the roles were reversed (a man found his happiness because a woman saw the real him), I would eyeroll at that, but I wouldn't be so upset at the character and offended by the writer's choices. Shallan doesn't live up to my expectations, not for Shallan, not for a realistic character of her background, but for what I personally want to see from a female character. (On the flip side, all of these pesky feelings about Shallan's character are making be dig into it more, which is making me more invested, which is actually making me like the character more even if I don't like Shallan's choices as a character. So perhaps it all works out )

Can you point to a passage where you feel she actively starts disassociating? I had forgotten about the Lightweaving (I'm pretty sure it's that) prior to meeting the Alethi court for the first time, so that was a new thing for me when I re-read that scene, and it really stood out in terms of what we see in OB. I'm curious as to where others draw the line at where Shallan's persona creation goes from "coping mechanism we all use" (like the date example) to "mental health disorder." I totally agree we are 100% there by the middle of OB, but unsure as to where it all originated. Per the above, can you let me know where these are? Sorry for making everyone point out passages! I'm very curious as to Shallan's timeline. Kind of relevant to the other (pretty gross IMO) thread about hating Shallan, I actually find myself much more interested in her post-OB. Yes, much of that interest comes from "negative" things she does (the split personalities, her jarring ending), but it did serve to make me more invested in trying to trace her emotional/mental journey and understanding (the best I can) what she is going through. E.g., I'm much more intrigued with her WoK viewpoints now than in my prior read of the book, as before I saw it more as worldbuilding as much as Shallan-building, but I've changed my mind on that. I am, obviously, pretty firm in my opinion about what happened at the end of OB, and so I see this as just supporting it - I've seen him write better/more satisfying endings, so I don't think he wanted us on board. Even Vin and Elend, who had the "cheesiest" romance I've read in Brandon's books so far, didn't have this level of cheesiness (without you I fade, the over-the-top "I'm happy" moment, not to mention the looking into eyes, holding hand, seeing the "real" her moment.) I think these moments are pretty objectively cheesy. The fact that I, as a non-writer who could never, ever write at the level he does, can think of minor tweaks which would sell Shallan's ending in OB better in order to counteract this cheesiness (and, honestly, the fact this cheesiness was included at all), and knowing that Brandon worked a lot on the end of Shallan's romantic arc (he says so him self in the reddit post), makes me think we're not supposed to be on board with it. I'm obviously biased, though I would love to get a WoB with someone expressing this point of view... (not sold on Shallan's ending.) I also think beta readers can be a biased group (not even about this arc in particular.) I think they are chosen because they are super fans (correct me if I'm wrong!), so I wonder if they are biased to accept what they are shown due to a little bit of hero worship. I see the beta readers as more for continuity errors and pointing out where realmatic items don't hang throughout the books (because they know the cosmere so well), but I could be very wrong about the process. We do know he worked on the romantic arc a lot, and that some of that work was based on beta feedback seeing Shallan and Veil as too separate (beta readers thought there were four people in the triangle instead of three.) I see this as supporting that these personas are all part of the real Shallan, and that the avoidance/pushing down of any persona's feelings does not lead to a complete decision. I had forgotten she was in the Devotary of Purity!! I'm a little sad we haven't had Vorinism, and Callings and Devotaries, fleshed out a bit more. I'm hoping since we're set up for a major conflict with the Vorin Church we may see more of this, but given so many potential plotlines bubbling around, I'm doubtful it will have too much emphasis.

Tarah has been mentioned since WoK, so she’s not a new character. The memory in OB is just the first time we’ve seen her “on screen” so to speak. I agree that the romantic arcs are sometimes the least nuanced of Brandon’s storylines, but so far at least (given we don’t know how SA’s storylines will conclude), they haven’t just been plucked out of midair.

Haha, not that I know. I was just spicing up my fanfic

I get both sides here. I find the romances/Shalladin to be some of my favorite things to discuss. But, it does get heated, and it's never fun to be part of that, especially when the discussions stop being rational and lead to attacks and emotional tirades. Some people are also just over talking about it, especially as all the build-up post-WoR lead to a pretty meh love triangle plotline in OB (seems to be the one thing people can agree on). As you know, I'm a post-OB Shalladin convert myself so I really wish we could go on and on about it, but I'm trying to restrain myself Well, this IS fanfic, so I imagine some heated sky sparring followed by some Bridge Four captain's quarters sparring would be warranted... (Was I the only one when Kaladin gave up his quarters to Rock and fam thinking, you do not give up your dormroom single?? Bad move, Kal, bad move.) Oh, those Bavland girls, so naughty

Do you have any good textual evidence for this? I think a lot of us feel like the Shallan in the chasms was the most authentic Shallan we've seen since her arrival on the Shattered Plains, but I'm wondering if there's any text which specifically talks about her dropping the "Shallan" guise or merging "Shallan" and Veil. Obviously this wouldn't be explicit (Veil isn't mentioned, for instance), but addressing either concept in a tangential way so we have stronger support than just feeling like Shallan's character acted more authentic.

Wha?? You find the idea of Kal looking across the training grounds to see the most gorgeous female... Skybreaker (let's have her be a Skybreaker, they can fly together and that'll be sexy) standing there, his heart beating in a way it never had before, feeling such a Connection (capitalized to drive it home that this is real), his whole Identity (again, note the capitalization) changing in that very moment as this he realized this, this was the woman for him... to be fanficy?!? But is that really that different from when.... [struggling to hold self back]. Small dabble in feminism?? I am offend!

Back to my one and only true love... talking about things I shouldn't as spoilers

Yeah, especially when you look at what people want for Kaladin (e.g. lighteyes to help him fully confront his prejudice, someone who can take care on herself, Radiant or least with good fighting skills (we've seen what soulcasting can do), someone to help lift him out of his depression - that's off the top of my head) and you're like, hmmmm, well there is one person I can think of... On a literary level, in a good story, what us readers want for character A is what the author is making us want for character A. And if there's character B that is fitting into the characteristics the readers are set up to want for character A (even if that doesn't seem to fit into the overt storyline at the time), I find that hard to ignore. But Shalladin is pretty taboo around here, so I won't go too far down this path I genuinely LOL'd at this! The Knights Shalladin.

Me too so, so badly. This is probably number one on my wishlist. Jasnah needs a squad, really. (I miss Jasnah already and can’t believe it will be years before we get to see her again ) I’d be down with some new badass female Radiant emerging from nowhere and just blowing Kal away with her fighting skills. (Preferably one who was even a better fighter than him.) I don’t think I’d even need much emotional development with the pair in order to be satisfied. Fourth oath time... Oh, just to throw my two cents on the topic, I’m quite certain Kal will get a serious love interest before these 5 books are over. Too many hints about how he should from Syl, and Brandon seems to like to do romance arcs.

I may be in the minority, but I connected with him so much more in OB. His scenes in WoK and WoR when he saves the day (Tower, Duel, Szeth battle, even the little things like making Bridge 4 magically the best troop of soldiers ever), while absolutely awesome to read, made it a little hard to relate to him. Yeah, he sometimes made mistakes and people died, but it always ended up working out. When he came out the chasms, Dalinar says something like, “This man is a hero. Again.” which I always saw as a little eye-rolly (likely bc I do audio, and it was said a little that way on audio.) Even Dalinar is annoyed he’s always saving the day, lol. After OB, he seems a little more human, a little less just the hero. It was beautiful to see him be saved by others. Syl comforting him when he couldn’t say the fourth oath was incredibly touching. These kind of moments turned me from someone who found his parts always thrilling into a character who I was really invested in his development. He very much has his flaws (and always has), but those always seemed a bit more of a side show - well, we need him to have something negative so it’s not too annoying he always saves the day. I think we got much more depth in OB, as much as it wasn’t as exciting to read.