Dreamstorm

Well, this is timely. May I humbly direct you to my post where I compile all the times Adolin thinks about Shallan in WoR and OB. (Note I have some comments in here with my own personal opinion/analysis which I delineate from the collection of the primary source material; hopefully it is clear when I do so. My one true ship is Kadolin, so I have highly editorialized comments on that, though note this list is not at all exhaustive of the times Adolin is thinking about Kaladin.) I was truly shocked by how this read collectively; prior to this my opinion was: Adolin had strong feelings for Shallan; Kaladin had strong feelings for Shallan; Veil had strong feelings for Kaladin; "Shallan" had strong feelings for Adolin. After this, I am seriously doubting the level of Adolin's affection - it started out close to what expected in his first Kholinar viewpoint, but went downhill from there. The main revelations which jumped out at me: Adolin focuses on Kaladin when the group arrives in Shadesmar and doesn't notice Shallan is exhausted from her efforts to escape the sphere-ocean until she literally collapses and he has to catch her. The next morning, Adolin's first thought upon seeing Shallan, Azure and Kaladin is whether Kaladin slept. On the Reacher ship, we see Adolin give Shallan a compliment (“I don’t think you’re capable of looking terrible. In all their color [nb. the highstorms], even those clouds can’t compete”) when we were told by Adolin's monologue/shown through actions that this is not a truthful statement from Adolin's perspective. In Celebrant, Adolin lets Shallan choose her task (find a ship or exchange spheres) and Adolin these decides to accompany Kaladin on the task Shallan did not choose. Note as much as I am obsessed with Kadolin, I don't think they will actually happen, but I find the extreme difference between how Adolin is thinking about Shallan versus Kaladin to be very telling regarding Adolin's feelings for Shallan.

@SLNC and @Vissy even one foot on tropical schooner Kadolin works for me! They are my heart ship for all time, even if we have enough WoB’s to make me believe it is highly, highly, highly unlikely; I put a couple below if anyone cares to read. (And as much as I would applaud Brandon for making as popular and prominent a character as Adolin gay, I don’t think it would be a smart decision commercially as I’ve seen authors with more liberal fanbases be panned for making a major character gay, as sad as that is in this day and age.) Besides #kadolin , what reading these Adolin veiwpoints has shown me is that Adolin seems to be pretending in this relationship possibly as much as Shallan is... even if his feelings for Kaladin are not romantic (which I doubt they will turn out to be, sigh), he still is choosing Kaladin over Shallan in various situations and admiring him more than Shallan. That means something that this is what we are shown in the limited Adolin veiwpoints we have to work with. We also have evidence that Adolin doesn’t actually believe at least some of these cheesy lines he’s feeding Shallan... So only part of Shallan wants to be with Adolin and Adolin seems to be phoning it with Shallan...? Hmmm....

There is an interesting dichotomy going on here: on one hand you have a character who is saying the right things (I want to whole you, the real you) but not following through with that in his actions (treating Shallan's personas differently by refusing to be intimate with Veil) versus the character who once said the wrong thing but appears to be acting in a mental health-positive manner (not reacting when Shallan switches personas.) It's the classic - do actions matter more than words? That being said, I agree that any relationship Shallan would be in where her partner is either saying words or undertaking actions which encourage her to maintain her fractured personality (by memory repression or strengthening the persona splits) is not a healthy thing for her. You feel this creates a "toxic relationship" - since Kaladin's words to Shallan are evidence to you that any Shallan/Kaladin relationship would be toxic then you must believe that Adolin's actions towards Shallan is evidence that Shallan's relationship with Adolin is currently toxic. (And I agree. Shallan should not be with either Kaladin or Adolin at the moment.) One more note, if the implication is that Adolin and Shallan can work through their toxicity, then there's no reason Kaladin and Shallan, should they ever choose to enter into a relationship, could also work through any potential toxicity.

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with that? Tertiary character 3 (who has viewpoints in part 2 and best seems to fit Jasnah) isn't shown in Brandon's spreadsheet to have viewpoints in part 5. That may be something to do with that fact she's not the "headline" character in any chapter in that section as it's not her chapter symbol on the chapter title page. (I think most of those get the general radiant symbol.)

Ok... so inspired @evanna's question I revived my prior scholarship (lol) and went through all of Adolin's viewpoints in OB to catalog when he thought about Shallan. (Note I don't mention every time they interact and speak in a viewpoint, just when he has a thought about her.) I include a note of two of my own in here about their interactions as presented by Adolin, and then a lot of "Kadolin" notes because as you will see - Adolin spends way more time thinking about, assisting and wanting to be around Kaladin than he does in relation to Shallan. Honestly... going by Adolin's viewpoints, one would think he has stronger feelings for Kaladin! Am I crazy?? I know there are plenty of Adolin/Shallan interactions which we see from Shallan's perspective, but the difference in the time we see Adolin focusing on Kaladin vs. Shallan in Adolin's viewpoints is pretty drastic. Of particular note is that Adolin doesn't notice that Shallan is exhausted to the point of collapse when escaping the Kholinar oathgate in Shadesmar while he was busy focusing on Kaladin and how Adolin chooses to go with Kaladin when they split up in Celebrant. Adolin also physically admires Kaladin more often then he physically admires Shallan. (His physical admiration of Shallan seems to be confined to liking her Veil outfit too - it gets a few mentions - when that is the persona he's now refusing to be intimate with.) I also want to note that in the Deadeye chapter, the cheesy line he gives Shallan is actually not aligned from his inner actions/thoughts as told to us just previously in the chapter; this makes me doubt the veracity (from an Adolin truthfulness perspective) of the other cheesy lines he gives her. Anyway... I tried to be very objective in the fact collecting and to clearly delineate my own thoughts, but let me know if I stray from that path WOR Ch. 37, Matter of Perspective: First time he sees Shallan; he thinks she's hot when she walks by. WOR Ch. 50, Uncut Gems: Immediately after wine/highstorm date. Most of this is about Sadeas and brooding on that. He thinks about Shallan, mentioning she is marvelous, exotic, witty, not smothered in Alethi propriety, smart and doesn't make him feel stupid. WOR Ch. 51, Heirs: Eshonai meeting, no mention of Shallan. WOR Ch. 53, Perfection: Elit duel and aftermath, this is the only time I found where we see a Shallan/Adolin interaction from Adolin's perspective, he thinks he's not unhappy to see her and that their relationship is awkward due to not knowing where they stand. WOR Ch. 56, Whitespine Uncaged: Four on one duel, burns Shallan's glyph and tells Navani she is quite marvelous. WOR Ch. 81, The Last Day: Start of Battle of Narak, no mention of Shallan. WOR Ch. 82, For Glory Lit: Battle of Narak, mentions Shallan as telling him rock formations are building. WOR Ch. 83, Time's Illusion: Battle of Narak, tells Skar Shallan is a clever woman. WOR Ch. 84, The One Who Saves: Battle of Narak, no mention of Shallan. WOR Ch. 85, Swallowed by the Sky: Szeth meeting/fight, no mention of Shallan. WOR Ch. 89, The Four: Killing Sadeas, notes Shallan may be the most important woman in the world because she is a Radiant and wonders how he fits in. OB, Ch. 2, One Problem Solved: Wandering Urithiru, no mention of Shallan. OB, Ch. 10, Distractions: Introspection with Gallant, no mention of Shallan. OB Ch. 83, Crimson to Break: Pre-Kholinar palace assault and first part of assault, mentions fretting about Shallan’s return the night before, checks glyphward he had Shallan make, thinks Shallan is fetching in her Veil outfit, finds it strange to see Shallan on the front lines, tells Shallan she has good form with Patternblade. (Kadolin note – Adolin giving Kaladin the Bridge 4 salute is sooooo adorable. He’s between terrified and in awe of Kaladin this whole chapter. Be still my beating heart!) OB Ch. 85, Grieve Later: Trying to get through the oathfate, talks to Shallan about Sja-anat but no inner monlogue. OB Ch. 87, This Place: Arrival in Shadesmar, no inner monologue about Shallan but mentions he hears her screaming. OB, Ch. 89, Damnation: Escaping the oathgate in Shadesmar, no inner monologue about Shallan in first portion, notes Shallan looks close to collapse towards the end and catches her as she falls. (Kadolin note – Adolin is so adorable with Kaladin here helping him get through his shock, and he ignores Shallan while doing so until she collapses with exhaustion.) OB, Ch. 93, Kata: Continuing through Shadesmar, notes Shallan can see what the beads represent which leads to musing on his place in the new Radiant-world, grins stupidly when Shallan interrupts the kata and notes she’s still wearing her Veil outfit. (Kadolin note – Adolin’s second thought upon waking (after musing over killing Sadeas) is to wonder if Kaladin slept. They share a “not convinced” glance over Azure’s vague history. Can they be any cuter?!?!) OB, Ch. 101, Deadeye: Adolin getting dressed to arrive in Celebrant, notes Shallan fits her clothes from a pure measurement standpoint but that the cut wasn’t flattering, gets distracted by the highstorm when Shallan asks him to sew her a skirt, when Shallan asks if she looks terrible, he says “I don’t think you’re capable of looking terrible. In all their color [nb. the highstorms], even those clouds can’t compete” [DS note – I find it odd that even though he says this line we see something different from his actual viewpoint as (i) he previously got distracted by those very same highstorm clouds while she talking and cuts off their conversation and (ii) his stated opinion of her appearance directly contrasts his inner monologue where he says her outfit isn’t flattering; yes, you often "white lie" in relationships to make your partner feels better/more important, but I think it says something that the cheesy line Brandon chose to show us from Adolin's perspective is one which is easily contradicted in-text], notes Shallan got excited as they approach Celebrant. (Kadolin note – Adolin first notices Kaladin’s outfit as “as man trying to wear his childhood suit; he’d never button that coat across his broad chest.” You guys – the addition of “broad chest” is how these things are noticed in a romance novel, no joke. Also, when they split up in Celebrant, Adolin asks Shallan if she would rather change money or find a ship; Shallan says she wants to find a ship; and Adolin then says they should split up the radiants and goes with Kaladin. He actually chooses to go with Kaladin over Shallan. I just can’t anymore!!!) OB, Ch. 108, Honor’s Path: On the honorspren ship, notices Shallan leering [nb. Adolin’s word] at Kaladin and that he couldn’t deny that he had noticed this, sighs and walks away noting it’s hard to compete with Kaladin and speaks to Pattern about it and how can’t blame Kaladin for being the way he is. (Kadolin note: Notes Kaladin has a “heroic figure – determined, undaunted” in his “crisp Wall Guard uniform.” Always up on Kaladin’s style and how he likes the way it looks... When they use the spyglass to see the chasing Fused, Kaladin tries to hand it to Adolin but Shallan snatches it away. Why you getting in between them, girl??) OB, Ch. 117, Champion with Nine Shadows: Fighting the fused before the Thaylen City oathgate (Maya saving Adolin), no inner monologue about Shallan. OB, Ch. 120, The Spear that Would Not Break: Setting off to fight in TC after being healed and fighting, his most “in awe” passage about Shallan as he notes “The white clothing seemed to glow, the red hair a striking swatch, as Stormlight rose from her… She wove her power, and an army climbed from the ground around her”, notes Shallan’s Adolin illusion is a windrunner and that he “can’t take that”, one mention of Shallan in later viewpoint sections (notes her distraction is working well). ETA: Wanted to clarify that as much I would love, love, love for Kadolin to happen, I don't think we're supposed to think it will. Like others point out, Adolin a bit hero-worships and has a strong affection for Kaladin, but (sadly for me, lol) I don't think we're supposed to read it as romantic.

I just more and more think that in general Shallan, Kaladin and Adolin's character arcs were a bit of arrested development due to the book's timeline fitting around Dalinar's story, so I strongly suspect (/fervently hope) all three will have big "movement" in their arcs the next book. (They are obviously quite present in OB, but there isn't that much change in any of them over the course of the book. You could argue the most that Shallan changed, but it seems to be mostly backsliding.) I find this WoB to be somewhat supportive of this idea (spoilered for length, but I bolded the pertinent part.) On the actual issue at hand (Adolin's failed relationships), this WoB says it's important: While these two (from the same signing and from close in time to the one above) make it seem less so: So who the storm knows. But I hope it comes up again, as right now the "things that never came to anything" list for Adolin is pretty long! Shockingly little. Before OB, I did a full look into his viewpoints in WoR, and there was really just one laundry list of good traits (right after the highstorm date) and maybe one of two other mentions, and besides that, he doesn't even seem to think about her. I found it really, really odd. I haven't done a full look in OB, but but I remember thinking that the most he thinks about his relationship with Shallan is in respect to how he thinks she's into Kaladin, and even then it comes across as mild annoyance more than being actually upset. (PS: Yay for rereads! The books are even better upon repeat!) ETA: In spoiler, my list of Shallan mentions in Adolin veiwpoints in WoR and preview chapters in OB at that time.

Mostly in threads either loving or hating Shallan (there's been a few of those as she's very divisive) or in the love triangle thread, but to my knowledge there hasn't been a thread solely focused on her diagnosis. I think it'd be a good topic on its own though!

Not love triangle related, but Brandon is a really good author for getting into the foreshadowing stuff. He's an "outline" writer, so he's able to lay little hints better than writers who write as they go (so-called "discovery" writers), and he has stated he really loves giving his readers little clues about the upcoming plots twists. You can look back at his language once a twist happens and see how it all unfolded and you were lead there as a reader, which is so fun. (If you have kindle search "momentum" in WoK and WoR and see how it's always been tied to negative actions, which of course becomes explicit in OB.) It makes his books so re-readable because you can see how these things are plotted out so far in advance. Whew, this took me a while, but here is the WoB on them "interacting together for the next few books" (from early-2015, so post-WoR but pre-OB.) Btw, if there are any other unattributed sections of the document which jump out, please point them out! It'd be great to have everything tied back to primary sources.

The diagnosis I've seen mentioned the most is OSDD (Other Specified Dissociative Disorder) specifically because one of the subtypes of the disorder is characterized by lack of dissociative amnesia between the alters. I'm not a psychiatrist/psychologist myself so not qualified to diagnose, but I know a lot of people with a psychology background have weighed in (including some posters who have suffered from this particular subtype of OSDD - I believe it's 300.15(1)(b) in the DSM-V) so I think it would be an interesting discussion (especially if segregated from the love triangle implications of Shallan's personality issues.)

I actually think this might be part of the appeal of Shadolin - people can easily imagine themselves slipping into a relationship with Adolin (or the Adolin personality traits in whatever gender they prefer), so when one thinks - would I rather be with Adolin or Kaladin?, Adolin is always the winner since he would make anyone happy! Insofar as his relationship with Shallan, he's infinitely patient and understanding not to mention super hot and rich and the best fighter ever. What's not to love? Maybe that's the only reason Adolin had his "relationship problems" prior to Shallan from a narrative perspective; it was an attempt to show there is something "special" about Shallan which stopped his wandering eye (his only fault besides his temper (which thankfully is not directed towards women)?), but I agree it wasn't well-developed. We get one list of Shallan's attributes from Adolin's perspective in WoR (the one where she's clever but doesn't make him feel stupid and she's not smothered in Alethi propriety), but other than that, we don't hear (from his mind or from what he tells her) why she's suddenly reformed him. Like you said, we in general don't hear a lot about why he specifically fits with her and she specifically fits with him. Emphasizing that special "fit" seems to be something Brandon has done in other relationships (Wax/Steris comes to mind), but seems to be lacking here. Something I didn't notice until my recent WoR reread (and as pointed out in @PhineasGage's essay which drew my attention to these things) is how much Kaladin is actually really attracted to Shallan from the get-go. Even taking their boots and king's antechamber spats out of the picture (the obvious set-up), he definitely hates seeing her with Adolin (the menagerie scene; Syl remarks there that he's extremely unhappy and even asks why they would make him unhappy) and her poor opinion of him (scene just before the bridge collapses where she says he's hateful), and I think he's lying to himself about how much he feels in OB too (right up to and including this scene at the end.) Others have addressed why Syl doesn't understand the significance of the fact Adolin and Shallan are in a relationship even if they aren't married (oaths), but I don't think it's a coincidence that every time Syl pushes Shallan on Kaladin he rebuffs Syl's suggestions, but the one time he does something in response to Syl's goading (the conversation on the Reacher ship), that ends up in the "death knell" moment for Shalladin. I don't think we're supposed to think Kaladin should insert himself and get in the way of Adolin and Shallan's relationship, and I think if (when....) Shallan and Kaladin finally get together, Adolin will be out of the picture, so it won't feel dishonorable. On a more meta level, I think Syl is representing Kaladin's deeper feelings for Shallan, which of course he's trying to suppress because it's not right for him to be chasing a romantic relationship with his friend's girlfriend. I agree with you that the most "immoral" action is that Shallan jumps into marriage when she's really not sure of it (as shown by integral parts of herself wanting something different.) I don't consider this immoral myself, as this is how humans are sometimes - we deny feelings in order to make ourselves more certain of actions - but it is probably the most damaging of the "not being faithful" inclinations we see in the book as it will have the most lasting consequences on Shallan and Adolin's relationship. Yeah, it's about as bad as you can imagine. It's this entire thread, only backwards. I couldn't get through it. It was very much a Shalladin-hating personal opinion piece, but I think that's to be expected given the participants. That's fine and all, and they only say they "discuss all aspects" of the triangle not that they are trying to present a balanced view of it. Ok, onto ketek posts! So I found this WoB which sorta kinda maybe confirms that the subject matter of the WoK ketek is about Honor's death. Ohhh, I really like this way of looking at them too! I wish that (without telling us what they mean so we can keep pondering that) Brandon would give us some guidance on how deep he was taking the keteks when he drafted them. They should pertain to the stated subject matter of the ketek (honor's death likely..., Everstorm arrival/highstorm clash, Adolin and Shallan marriage), and then a more superficial connection to the general flow of each part, and then I like your idea of pertaining to the MC, and I also think they can work related to the subject matter of the ketek in each part. Possibly they are so thematically intertwined yet obtuse that it all works out. Honestly one of the things I find frustrating about poetry interpretation in general is that as a student you're "told" a poem or line in a poem means "x", when maybe you can see that, but you can also see why "y" fits. Unlike a book where I can usually piece together the hidden meaning (*cough* Shalladin *cough*), poetry will sometimes just baffle me in terms of what I'm supposed to get from it. I love this, but since Adolin is "born unto light" may I humbly suggest that this is really pointing to Kadolin being our main romance #kadolinforever

My hope is it's both (since I think it would be genius) - so you can read the Part headings both with respect to the events in that Part as a whole and as they specifically relate to the subject matter of the ketek. It definitely may just be the former, but now I can't wait for the ketek in the next book (when I previously kind of ignored them... ) That's actually from full book reactions, but I absolutely love this as a piece of foreshadowing/fourth wall breaking. EDIT By now I can't help but get extremely suspicious when someone uses question marks (Shallan hearing Wit's? voice, Kaladin feeling acceptance? and so on) This is an awesome catch - and perfectly describes so many people's feelings about the conclusion!

Hi! So two (not so quick) things... First, a couple WoBs from the OB signing which I found were interesting, if not particularly dispositive. There two on foreshadowing (quotes and links below.) The first one (which is a bit garbled) is Brandon saying foreshadowing is the thing he loves to do the most. The second is not completely on point (I bolded some of the interesting parts), but it discuses his perspective on the interaction between fan expectations and ensuring your foreshadowing works (in the context of, don't change what's going to happen even if fans guess where it's going because that will blow your foreshadowing.) Neither tells us anything about Shalladin of course, but they do emphasize how important foreshadowing is to the author, and the latter does address the point that a story should move in the direction it needs to move, not to cater to fan wishes. This next one could have a lot of meanings, but it confirms while a rock is just a rock to Tien, that the rock is used to symbolize other things in the book. While we know the rock symbolizes Tien to Kaladin (that's pretty obvious), the vagueness in these "metaphorical relationships" made me think of @DeployParachute's theory. Second, I had a breakthrough on the keteks, which I doubt will be a breakthrough for many people (since it's pretty obvious) but... the title of the parts of each book is the ketek! (It's ok to roll your eyes at me because that was really obvious.) But I just noticed this over the weekend, so it got me thinking if we could analyze the keteks in conjunction which what occurs in each part as related to the subject matter of the ketek. This ends up being interesting in OB (at least for us triangleaphites), sorta of meh in WoR because it's so obvious, and inscrutable in WoK because we don't know what the ketek is about (I guess; it kinda works.) I take a stab at interpreting below. Note I am fully aware that this method of interpreting the ketek could be incorrect, and that the part titles also fit into other aspects of the story in those parts (which I think is part of the genius of them.) OB: "United, new beginnings sing: 'Defying truth, love. Truth defy!' Sing beginnings, new unity." Note the punctuation is different in the ketek then in the part headings. The subject of the ketek is obvious here - the marriage of Adolin and Shallan - so I will look at their relationship in each of the parts as it relates to the section of the ketek used in the title. Part One: United This is very easy, as Part One contains the largest collection of Shallan/Adolin relationship-building scenes in any of the books, with the sword fighting scene (which stretched over two chapters), meeting Ialai together and fighting Re-Shephir together. They are truly united in their relationship. Part Two: New Beginnings Sing I feel this is pretty easy, though would be controversial if I ever had the courage to float this ketek interpretation to a wider group. Adolin is literally not present in this part, so the new beginnings could only be with respect to Shallan as the only member of the marriage who is present. What does happen in this part is that Shallan draws her distracted picture of Kaladin and also (off-screen) flies with him to Thaylen City and to the surrounding mountains to draw Urithiru. I can't see it in any way except as Kaladin as the "new beginning." Part Three: Defying Truth, Love Truth So this is a contradiction, as it implies our to-be-married couple is both defying truth and loving truth. I think this makes sense in light of Shallan's split personality; on one hand she is denying truth by shunting her feelings for Kaladin onto Veil and insisting her full affection is for Adolin (we explicitly see this exact mental maneuver by Shallan a few times in this chapter), but on the other hand, personaShallan does love Adolin so that is her (personaShallan's) truth. Part Four: Defy! Sing Beginnings! The use of the imperative seems to suggest that the choice is to defy (push off Veil) and imperatively sing beginnings. This is the part where Kaladin and Shallan have the oft-cited conversation which shows Kaladin is glorifying Shallan's coping mechanism (which takes him out of the running as a good romantic match for Shallan at the moment) and also the part where Shallan and Adolin have their most-intimate conversation, where Shallan admits to her personas and Adolin admits to killing Sadeas. Both of those things line up to a part which is cementing where Shallan is headed by book's end; aggressively defying her feelings and jumping suddenly into the beginning of her marriage. Part Five: New Unity This one is also very easy, as since the book ends in the Adolin/Shallan marriage, this is a new type of unity. Overall, I think this suggests that the marriage is based on defying truth, as it was the "Defy!" which led to the singing beginnings and the new unity. This is quote in line with at least this group's line of thinking. WoR: "Alight, winds approach deadly approaching winds alight." This ketek is on Navani's journal of the events leading to the arrival of the Everstorm. Although not 100% clear, I think this ketek is about the Everstorm itself, so I will look at it in the context of the events which happened that lead to the summoning of the Everstorm from the Listener perspective. (Our Alethi were not the proximate cause of the Everstorm.) I take the interludes at the end of each part as being part of the preceding part for these purposes. Part One: Alight This is when the Listeners agree Eshonai will turn into stormform, and that decision is what cemented the fact the Everstorm would eventually be summoned. Part Two: Winds' Approach This is when Eshonai actually took stormform and speaks to the crowd at Narak about the glories of stormform; the power of all those Listeners in stormform is what will cause the Everstorm. Part Three: Deadly Eshonai is extremely aggressive in her "convincing" of the Listeners to all take stormform and wants to kill those who oppose, so she is acting in a deadly manner to squelch any resistance which could halt the summoning of the Everstorm. Part Four: The Approach Venli and Eshonai argue about when to summon the Everstorm, with Eshonai's prevailing argument that they should wait for the Alethi to approach. Alternatively, this can quite simply mean the approach of the Everstorm. Part Five: Winds Alight Like Part 5 in OB, this is also obvious because this is the section where the Everstorm is summoned by the Listeners, and so its winds actually do descend on the Shattered Plains. Overall, I think it is very easy to put this ketek into my interpretation format and the result is obvious; the Everstorm arrived. WoK: "Above silence, the illuminating storms - dying storms - illuminate the silence above." This is hard as we don't know what this ketek is about. It is a death rattle from a Herdazian, so we know it's of Odium and speaks of something in the future. I'm going to interpret it as Dalinar discovering Honor is dead (i.e. his visions during the storm showed him that there was no Almighty above.) Part One: Above Silence The difficult part of the interpretation I chose is that Dalinar isn't in parts one and three. However, if we look at the effect of Honor's death on Kaladin and Shallan, I think we can make these parts work, though they are not the most convincing. Here we have two people in very desperate situations; Kaladin as a slave and his early days on the bridge crews and Shallan needing to steal from Jasnah in order to save her family. Although I don't like how "above" could correlate to "better than" Honor (the silence), it can also just mean "outside of" Honor, in which both characters were placed in dishonorable situations (Kaladin where other men are acting dishonorably by wasting bridgeman lives, and Shallan where she is forced to act dishonorably to save her family.) I am not particularly convinced of my own interpretation. Part Two: The Illuminating Storms This one is fairly easy, too, as it is during highstorms when Dalinar receives his visions (which begin to illuminate what he will eventually learn at the end of the book.) Part Three: Dying Following through on my intro to part one, this part ends with an extreme low point for both Kaladin and Shallan; Kaladin's flashback shows Amaram slaughtering his men (the very embodiment of death of honor) and Shallan is abandoned by Jasnah after her treachery is uncovered (Jasnah saw that Honor was dead within Shallan by virtue of her theft.) Again, I do think parts one and three are the weakest. Part Four: Storm's Illumination Dalinar receives more illuminating visions from Honor during the highstorm. (Note the Stormfather, i.e. the storm itself, is the one sending these.) For another take, we also have Sadeas' betrayal which is another example of Honor being dead inside men, as this action was also (like Amaram's treachery) the very embodiment of the death of Honor. Part Five: The Silence Above Like the other two books, this is the easiest, as this is the part where Dalinar actually learns Honor is dead, and that there is nothing "above" (in the heavens) but silence. Alright, this was very long, but I had fun if you guys managed to read to the end! Thank you for providing a safe thread to share my thoughts!

I don’t have a ton of time, but I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who answered my Laral/Syl question, because I find it very interesting with how that aligns with one’s personal views on Laral. One of the things I find so interesting about Brandon’s “bad” character is how devisive they are because he always builds in some redeeming attributes, but some people relate to the certain redeeming attributes for said character and others don’t (eg Moash, Amaram, Elhokar though the latter got so “good” most got behind him.) I find Laral pretty sympathetic (obviously from my previous posts), and I feel like Syl’s endorsement (in character and because it was told to us by the author) supports that, but I also love a childhood crush, long separation and reunited, lots of misunderstanding, true love romance, so that heavily colors me view too So if Shalladin sinks at sea... and Kadolin just can’t happen... it’s Laraladin all the way

@Awesomness @PhineasGage @Wolven @SLNC Alright, I never thought I'd take a more unpopular position than Shalladin Not that the Laral dislike is surprising considering we get a fairly unsympathetic portrait of Laral from Kaladin's point of view. Couple questions for you guys if you want to play (but no worries if you don't!): Why do you think Syl (the character) says she likes Laral after this conversation? Why do you think Brandon (the author) decided to tell us (the readers) that Syl likes Laral after this conversation, i.e. what was the reason for including that exchange and what was he trying to get across? To respond to a couple points which I think are a bit unfair to my poor Laral.... Laral doesn't have perfect knowledge; she knows what she was told of these situations. Roshone's first words to Lirin were "you were the one who let Wistiow die" or something like that, so you can infer that in addition to hearing how poorly Lirin was treating Roshone, she also heard that Lirin caused her father's death. I think it's a bit unfair to expect the 12-13 year old Laral to be able to push this aside. As a practical matter, she becomes essentially the hostage of Roshone's family (she has no other family), so as a survival mechanism (Stockholm Syndrome), she is going to side with Roshone because that's the only way to psychologically survive her current position. Where do you get the idea that Laral had any choice in marrying Roshone? What else was she supposed to do instead of "saving herself" when she was, as I think we can assume, forced into marriage with a man half her age? Run away? Kill him? Collapse into a ball for the rest of her life? I'm not sure how Laral, a young girl who was made to marry this man, could have responded in a satisfactory way given the circumstances she had to work with. We have zero clue what Laral did or didn't question as we see everything from Kaladin's perspective. He has very little of an idea as he barely interacted with her after Wistiow died. To take a dark path (and maybe not that unlikely given Roshone seems like a very bad man and his son not much better) you don't know what physical and emotional abuse she may have suffered at the hands of these men. We just don't know enough of what she has been through to judge her harshly; all we know is she survived a bad situation, ended up in a position where she is well respected by her staff, and has found a way to psychologically justify to herself Roshone's behavior. I agree with the fact the main reason we see Laral and Tarah in the same book is a way of pointing out he's moving beyond both of these crushes/romances (and Kaladin actually thinking about his feelings for both in connection with his feelings for Shallan while on the Reachers ship is particularly on the nose.) Let's be real, it's 100% clear,um I mean, quite likely that Shallan is going to be Kaladin's actual romance for a bunch of other reasons, but that's not because Laral is an awful person, or Laral would make a patently bad match for Kaladin, or Kaladin has zero feelings for Laral and would leave her out in an Everstorm to bond with a voidspren, but because we've been given "the" match for Kaladin elsewhere in the books. Spoilered below because this is long and Shalladin...

Whatever works best for you! The one substantive thing I thought about changing I added a note for, besides that it was just adding additional quotes in support or slightly elaborating on some things, but you wouldn't want people coming in and deleting! I have no clue because I'm new to this to, but I guess if I was an author and someone clearly spent so much time analyzing the text of my writing and crafting an argument around it? I'd think that was amazing. I know he gets "opinion" pieces on how people feel about what happened or what they want to happen, but I would find something which required so much effort to find textual support versus just giving an opinion to be awesome. But then again, that's also just my opinion (I also remain in awe of this compilation. Like this can be converted to a legal brief for the argument with minimal effort. Ok, crazy idea, but once it's done, I could even put it into an amicus brief format (example here: https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publishing/preview/publiced_preview_briefs_pdfs_07_08_07_588_PetitionerAmCupacificlegal.authcheckdam.pdf) and add citations (I have all three hardcovers for cites) and everything. Ok, this is the nerdiest idea ever so feel free to shut it down )

I have no clue if anything romantic will happen between them (likely not, because I think all signs point to Shallan), but I hardcore disagree with you that he has zero feelings for her in the watcher at the rim chapter. He tried to impress her ("'I imagine returning here a war hero and challenging Roshone. I wanted to save you, Laral'"), she shot him down ("'I am quite happy here.'"), they argue about Roshone (the "little passion to continue the argument" is about how he doesn't feel strongly about his hatred for Roshone anymore, as tied to his embarrassment after the punch and his new "perspective"), and then he gets all pissy when Syl asks about Laral ("'That's a girl I was never going to marry, no matter what happened.'" is a lie and he knows it, as everything we've been told is that Kaladin was going to marry Laral if Wistiow hadn't died.) Seems like classic rejection causing indignation (I don't know what you're talking about, I never liked her anyway!) sort of thing to me. But, it's cool you have a different take!

Sorry, you edited to add that and I didn't re-read when I quoted it. I think it's very hard for Kaladin to separate his duty to protect from personally caring. Besides in the line you bolded ("What did he care? He intended to see his parents moved from this city anyway.") this makes it seem like he would abandon them, which we all know he won't do. Kaladin has these dramatic reactions all the time (e.g. when talking to Dalinar about flying to Kholinar with Elhokar and having to brood about it and then say he was fine with taking Elhokar) but in the end he feels just as emotional about protecting the people he doesn't necessarily care for. Besides with Laral at least, this is all after she just shot him down (shutting down the "I was going to save you"), so there's a definite sense of rejection going on.

Kaladin doesn't even give a damnation about Hearthstone, Roshone and Laral anymore. Sure, he would protect them, if he needed because of his oaths, but not because he cares about them. Did Lirin try to befriend Roshone...? I think this is more a moment of Kaladin slowly learning there are two sides to every story, which is a theme throughout all of his character growth. (Something which is very tied to his breakdown in Kholinar as well.) And damnation, Kaladin better care about Hearthstone and more than just his family, or else bye, bye Syl (protecting those you hate?; protecting in general?) I don't want to go through that again!

Teenagers are fickle, also as you said, her father had just died. So a hormonal teenager who just lost her only parent, a parent who was probably pushing her towards a union with Kaladin (at least from what Hesina says), so I think you're naturally going to pull away from that guy (Kaladin) and also try to escape into fantasy (the handsome lighteyes.) Did she exhibit exemplary traits here? No. But I also think it's forgivable (thought I get that you don't.) Except this is wrong... taking the desolation out of it (since the everstorm has just happened), she's the wealthiest woman she knows with oodles of money and ardents and horses and a spanreed connecting her to the palace in Kholinar. Yeah, Dalinar is a lot richer, so Kaladin is like - oh, I didn't know what money was, but that's comparing a millionaire in a small town to a billionaire; the millionaire is still super rich and still has status. Laral didn't seem like she wanted to get back together with Kal... she actually said the opposite. But, I'm sure it'll stick with her, not because she craves wealth and status (she's always had those things in her world), but because he has become what she dreamed of him being when she was younger - a knight with a shardblade. I think you and I may agree that when Kaladin sounds the most turned off it might be an indicator he's actually feeling the opposite way... (ahem, she who shall not be named.) Not to mention he had just got shut down; of course he's going to be pouty. Syl also has the exact same reaction to those two young ladies. Yeah, I was thinking more of a necessary evacuation thing. I have no evidence one way or another it'll happen, but I think it could set up a lot of interesting character development (not the least uniting my new ship Laraladin. Which to be clear, is a ship purely based on something I think would be fun, lol, so there's ample room for disagreement. Something I would ask Brandon would be... "Have we seen the last of Laral?" )

This is AMAZING. I love, love, love all of the footnotes with actual quotes from the book. Btw, I think it's actually stronger as a note with the source quotes because that makes it less about your (or any of our) opinions, and more about what is actually in the text. Hopefully you can leave it open for a couple days so we can see what other quotes can be added? (I personally won't be able to really dig into it until tomorrow and I really want to!) Also, is this something we (you? - I'd be fine doing just you since you did the work or a collective group, whichever you prefer) should send to Brandon? ETA: I lied and already made a couple edits and added some quotes but want to add more. There are so many quotes in support it's amazing!!

Yeah, all of our darkeyed Radiants (there's more than just Kaladin) are level three or less (the only ones above that are Shallan and possibly Jasnah), but (i) it seems as though it is often hard to progress beyond three (e.g. that library note about the windrunner not wanted to say his fourth oath), so our gene pool to reproduce lighteyes seems like it would be not the largest and (ii) in any given Radiant population, there would be a mixture of levels, and I imagine a mixture of relationships (level 2 with level 3, level 3 with level 5, etc.), and if not all Radiants bred true for lighteyes, I'd imagine we'd have far more heterochromatic individuals. If Hoid is saying Radiants led to lighteyes (which I don't believe we know for certain), I imagine all Radiants would pass along the lighteyed gene, and possibly even that the lighteyed Radiant gene would dominate any non-Radiant dark-eyed gene. Otherwise I don't know why we'd have such a large and consistent (i.e. non-heterochromatic) lighteyed population.

So, in Wit's epilogue in WoK, he notes there is a good reason for the ligheyed/darkeyed dichotomy. This suggests to me that this is because the Knight Radiants were the ancestors of lighteyes, and as Knights Radiant were the upper class in Alethela, their decedents remained the upper class post-Recreance. (I can't find a specific WoB to support this, so if this premise is wrong, let me know.) It appears that eye color usually breeds true - two darkeyes have darkeyed children, two lighteyes have lighteyed children, a darkeye and a lighteye have heterochromatic children. (The latter doesn't appear to occur 100% of the time (see the end of this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/148-torcom-the-way-of-kings-re-read-interview/#e2782 - except below), but seems to be the most common outcome.) We also know that not all Knights Radiant were lighteyed and a Knight Radiant only maintains his/her light eye color when holding a Sprenblade and for a couple hours afterward. So, what color eyes would these darkeyed Knights Radiant have if they had a child with a lighteyed mate - lighteyed or heterochromatic? Do the actual genes change so that your Knight Radiant passes on eye color as though he/she is lighteyed? That would seem to be what Hoid is suggesting, but that seems a little odd as Kaladin's default state is darkeyed. Would it matter if the child was conceived when said Knight Radiant was in lighteyed or darkeyed form? There may be something definitive on this, but I couldn't find it, so if anyone has any information that would be greatly appreciated!

Hmmmm, maybe I can even get up the courage to do a Case for Kadolin post... (caveating that I understand it's not going to happen in the book so I don't get yelled at for that! But still why I love it and what in-book "evidence" we have...) I'm getting more and more into Laral. I agree she seems to have developed into quite a strong young woman (and I do not see the fact she was kind of petty and starstuck by a fancy young lighteyed man as a teenager as a crippling personal fault; that's what happen when you're a teenager.) I think one definite possibility is that when the books pick back up in SA4, all of Hearthstone is already at Urithiru (and since it's all of them, Lirin would come too.) I wouldn't be surprised if what Kaladin and B4 did for much of the one-year break was rescue the people in the pockets of resistance in Alethkar (noted as Kaladin files to Skar and Drehy in the end) including Hearthstone. As readers, we don't need to see this and the Hearthstone arrival at Urithiru because we already saw the reunion in OB, but it would raise all sorts of interesting interpersonal dynamics to have Kaladin's family, Roshone and Laral at Urithiru. There was definitely some "chemistry" still between Kaladin and Laral; he's all "I will protect you", and she's all "storm off" and then all "like you know the king!... oh wait you do, I'll just be silent and a little in awe now...." They were both interested in each other as children. Laral was an adventurous girl, scrambling over rocks and exploring with Kaladin and Tien, and she clearly has a "I can take care of myself" attitude - all of which fits well with Kaladin IMO. I'm sure she's not able to stop thinking about him right now... I mean you're married to an old man in the middle of nowhere and your childhood crush (who you spurned at one point) comes back with a shardblade and flying?!? C'mon! So, yes, current wishcasting is Hearthstone in Urithiru, more Laral/Kaladin interactions, and don't forget Lirin was good friends with her father and Hesina always approved of the match, so there'd be plenty of external support of this match. #teamlaraladin

If Kal doesn’t end up with She Who May Not Be Named, then Laraladin is my top pick, primarily because Syl was a big fan. I also find ending up with your childhood crush to be cute both in fiction and in real life, though @Rainier your thoughts are noted. Castration over Laraladin! @Greywatch #kadolinforever

I think he just means Truespren who can Nahel bond and make a Radiant (this was originally supposed to be a non-spoiler annotation for beginning of WoK.) Btw, as far as "standing up", we have seen two personas do this: Veil on Honor's Path (when Veil "stood solidly on two feet" as observed by Adolin when seeing Kaladin with the windspren) and again when Kaladin lands post-TC (when Veil "pulled herself to her feet") and Radiant after TC (when Radiant is the one "stumbling to her feet" as the one "Jasnah could feel"). Both those personas choose Kaladin before "Shallan" "stuffed them into the back part of her brain." I'm getting a little worried Shallan's reintegration is going to be a little too tied to Kaladin...