Dreamstorm

Sounds good! (And congrats on the posting milestone ) I’m going to leave the personal opinion bits out of it @Walkerxes and just focus quickly on the book parts on your post. (And I’m sorry TOWC that all of these below quote you!) Agreed, though some will debate she had a latent attraction for Kaladin given their couple argumentative scenes. Even without that interpretation, it’s not out of the question for a late teens girl to have romantic feelings for someone else, especially given Adolin was a very new romance and one set up by political expediency. You’ll find a lot of disagreement on this one. If you look at the first post, there’s a google doc which compiles a lot of the Kaladin/Shallan arguments. Off the top of my head, Kal/Shallan similarities include banter/humor, interest in scholarship and passion (Shallan’s true nature according to Brandon.) The main “nothing in common” item which seems to be batted around is their stations prior to OB (lighteyes vs darkeyes), which is negated by the fact they are both now Radiants (another similarity.) For whatever reason, I haven’t seen the Kalalyn (?) ship that much! (Tons is Jasnah and Syl though.) I have heard people object to the commander/subordinate relationship and also the fact their only real interaction is Kal being all sexist about women as Radiants. Why do they work well for you together? A popular viewpoint, but do you want to expand on your reasons? Regardless of the Shalladin outcome, I think it is unlikely Kaladin comes out of the five book arc without a serious relationship. OB is full of Kal and romance aspects; seeing Laral again, reminiscing about Tarah, Syl constantly pestering Kaladin about girls (and that’s not even including Shallan.) Brandon loves writing romance and given the fact it was inserted into Kaladin’s storyline heavily in OB, I imagine our good Windrunner won’t be all alone in his captain quarters for too long. (Did he ever get those back from Rock?? Legit worry of mine )

If you’re actually looking to discuss, maybe give some reasons why you feel this way?

Uhhhh, no. That would be Brandon Sanderson. The guy who you're saying doesn't portray correctly the addiction to a drug he actually fabricated. I agree Teft appears quite badly addicted by the time of OB. I don't agree that the hints we get in WoR - which are from Kaladin's PoV - are inconsistent with that. (We have one short viewpoint from Teft in WoR, which is focused on telling us about the Envisagers. He does, however, skip meals while watching the chasms, which aligns with your list of expected reactions to firemoss addiction, something I hadn't thought was connected but maybe is?)

You appear to have a very specific idea of what firemoss is, how one should react to the addiction and how it should have been portrayed. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to jive which the ideas of the guy who invented the concept of firemoss in the first place You also seem very set in your ways about how every addict to non-fantasy substances should react to addiction. You'd be surprised at the functionality of some people who are addicted to even heroin or meth; body chemistry varies, and people respond differently. It seems like the book disappointed you immensely to the point where you can't even consider looking at any of the plots/characterization differently, though.

Everyone experiences mental health issues (drug addiction included) a little bit differently. Clearly Teft’s drug addiction didn’t align with your personal experience, but I have known some highly functioning addicts, so for me it rung true. You can definitely dislike the arc and not find the foreshadowing adequate for how you believe drug addiction should be portrayed, but it was foreshadowed. It didn’t pop out of nowhere in OB.

It definitely was, just seems not obviously enough for you to pick up on it. When you next reread WoR, look for many mentions of Teft being gone and no one knowing where he went and Teft saying he can’t be trusted with money. There’s no mention directly of his firemoss addiction (of course as that would be giving it all away), but hints are there we can eventually connect to the problem when revealed in OB.

Totally worth the time to watch this. My two cents - I like Star Wars (I've seen all the movies), but am not a "real" fan. I don't even know if I watched a trailer prior to seeing the Last Jedi. I certainly never read a single theory. I went with a similarly situated friend. We both left confused and disappointed in the movie. (People actually walked out of our screening too.) I can see how some of this was due to introduction on unfamiliar characters (the YouTubers point number 1), but I saw the Force Awakens with the same friend, and there we are introduced to a bunch of new characters, and we both really enjoyed that movie. (The similarity in plot to a New Hope may have helped?) The other ways that theories could ruin the movie don't apply to me since I wasn't exposed to any theories nor did I have lots of information to increase my confidence in what would happen. (I literally had zero expectations and zero clue what might happen.) So I have to say the elements the YouTuber mentions in the end probably weighed more on my opinion, namely that there wasn't a sense of consistency and things that happened/we saw in the movie had no bearing on what ended up happening. I imagine for me a lot of this was subconscious; the movie just didn't set up the connections a story usually does for it to feel cohesive. Sure, you can make an argument that it's great to subvert expectations (anti-Chekov's gun) and it's good to show that in the end, many things in life are meaningless, and I think that is what critics are getting at: The movie is different! It doesn't make sense! Life doesn't make sense! Relating this to our dear ASK discussion, this definitely is an argument we've seen here; even though there was this setup for Shalladin, it's awesome that it was in the end it was ignored and subverted, because that's clever and different. And OK, maybe that's what is going on. And it's the author's prerogative to handle a plot line in that manner. But, just like our YouTuber says, if you're going to craft a story where you can't trust that things actually mean anything, then you're going to lessen the enjoyment of a lot of readers, just like you lessened the enjoyment of a lot of people who saw the Last Jedi.

If this is your biggest concern, I'm going to spoiler something on it if you want to find out in advance. Don't forget Dalinar is heavily, heavily manipulated by the Thrill, which influences a lot of his actions in his younger days. That's not to absolve him of all responsibility, but just something to keep in mind

Hi - I'm sorry to skip back a couple of days, but I wanted to address a couple of older points. (Also this gets rather long...) This makes sense - we are coming at this from two very different perspectives - I wanted a satisfying romance; you wanted one which wasn't too annoying. I am definitely a lover of romance (and read a lot of straight-up romance novels), so if a book bothers to include romance, I want to feel it. (To the magical part, I don't know if you've ever fallen in love, but I find the process IRL to be quite magical, so I want that intense feeling to be captured in books.) While I think Brandon's romances can be a bit clunky and overdone (i.e. too many declarations of love, Vin/Elend drove me crazy with this), I have actually found them all to be rather charming. I believe the two characters do truly love each other and Brandon writes situations where the falling in love process feels decently organic. (I especially enjoyed Wax/Steris.) I can totally see an alternate reality where Kaladin is not in the picture (and thus all the meta stuff isn't there also) and where the ending of OB was tweaked to make it a moment of strength for Shallan (e.g. she realizes she is the person behind her masks instead of Adolin selecting one and that person behind the masks wants Adolin) where I would be very happy with the Shadolin romance. So I totally get how someone could look past those elements and be happy with it, especially someone who just didn't want the romance to be annoying - and since this romance wasn't annoying, having it not be over would only open up more possibilities for annoyance. For me, it wasn't annoying, but it also wasn't satisfying, so I definitely want it not to be over so we can have a more satisfying romance. (And I feel Brandon has delivered that before, so this is a big step down!) On the situations you mention, I already delved into the art bit above. (Where it seems the straightforward stuff actually makes that an item in the Kaladin column, or at least not negative to Kaladin, sorry ) On Pattern and Adolin, I think this could mean something or it could not. Adolin is super likeable, so I'm not surprised someone (spren or no) likes him. (It's more surprisingly that Syl doesn't like Adolin, something which Kaladin gets after her for.) If we're using spren favoritism as a indicator of romantic feelings, though, where does that leave Syl's fangirling of Shallan? Syl is always pushing Shallan on Kaladin, saying he should talk to her, hanging out with her alone to be lightwoven, wanting to stay with Shallan when the group goes on missions, etc. If Pattern's feelings are such a big indicator, then Syl's feelings should be taken into account when evaluating the "honesty" of Kaladin never being into Shallan romantically. If we can't take that at face value, then part of the "this is over" analysis starts to fall apart as it means Kaladin still has feelings for Shallan. On the last point (Pattern only being upset at Shallan's lies when she's Veil), this isn't actually something I've noticed, so I need to look into it. Thanks for pointing it out! As far as the bigger point and looking at foreshadowing... you can definitely read Brandon's books and not look beyond the explicit storyline. (In fact, I think he expects this for a lot of readers.) But you are going to miss out on things because Brandon foreshadows a lot. He's said it's "the thing I love to do the most". (source) Here are two more WoB where he talks about his foreshadowing (one, two) - how he knows that if he designs it well, there will be people who figure it out where others will be totally surprised. So, I find a lot of the fun in analyzing the books is to speculate on what may or may not be foreshadowing. Some of it I'm sure isn't (like I said, the Pattern bond fraying is one of the more speculative one), but then you come to something like Shalladin and the sheer amount of possible foreshadowing elements seems pretty conclusive. Like I said in a post before, there's just so much you have to explain away with arguments like: Brandon was sloppy, I'm sure that was unintentional, that doesn't mean anything, you're reading too much into things.... And that's not even touching on the explicit elements. (Like the art thing - it's explicit that Kaladin uses art for useful things and as a means of study, and that he's interested in Shallan's scholarly drawing. It's explicit that Shallan chose natural history because she liked the study and observation elements of art. Combine these two together, and you've got (another) commonality.) I think we started this by talking about Pattern and Shallan's bond fraying, and how since she didn't note any weird behavior, it wasn't happening? Putting aside the fact we get a mentions of Pattern's drowsiness in both WoR and OB (both when Shallan's contemplating being/pretending to be other people), I don't think we can generalize to say that the absence of something means it doesn't mean anything. (Wow that's convoluted, sorry.) One other example of the narrative not noting something (here in Shallan's perspective) is that she totally hides the ball on Pattern being her shardblade. When we get close to the reveal (which comes through Syl and Kaladin), we get some more explicit hints (in the chasms), but there are clues Shallan has a shardblade back in WoK without it being hinted it's actually her spren (she doesn't even remember about Pattern then!) Brandon also definitely does the bait and switch; Vin's earring is one of my favorites here. I won't go into too much detail (for spoilers sake), but what we're told about it is very different than what it ends up being. The hints get stronger as the books go along, but especially from Vin's own perspective, it takes an agonizingly long time for her to come to the realization. So, just because a character isn't commenting on something being odd, doesn't mean the reader isn't supposed to pick up on it being odd. But in general - I don't think we say any one thing (the presence of or the absence of) definitively can be disregarded. Maybe it means something; maybe it doesn't. But since Brandon is all about foreshadowing, it's always a possibility. To go a bit further, Adolin is the fairy-tale happy ending to what Shallan expected. We see her expectations very early on ("She'd expected to marry one of her father's allies, then spend the rest of her life sequestered in his manor." WoK, Ch. 3, City of Bells), and also through Shallan's flashbacks as she gets older and increasingly mentions her place in like is the be married off for political gain. (Not begrudgingly! Shallan, as we know, had very much accepted this was her place in life.) Now here is Adolin, and a marriage crafted by someone else (Jasnah instead of her father) for political gain (even if you want to argue it ended up being a love match, it didn't start out that way), which is the fantasy every lighteyed girl who expects an arranged marriage would dream about: the handsome prince, who is nice and gorgeous and supremely talented, and totally in love with you to boot. Even for Brandon (who as I said, overdoes these things), this seems a bit on the nose as wish fulfillment for Shallan. (Not to mention super tropey! Something which seems to be forgotten when discussing the hatred of the braided rose trope.) Here's the quote: "Why did Shallan focus so much on Adolin? He was nice, but also bland. You couldn't tease him without feeling bad, but Kaladin, he glared at you in the most satisfying of ways. The part of her that was still Shallan, deep down, was bothered by this line of thinking. So instead, Veil turned her attention to the palace." OB, Ch. 63, Within the Mirror Are there any times when Shallan mentions that Kaladin is [something negative] (after the chasms this is) in her inner monologue? She makes the veiled (ha!) reference to him not encouraging her to be herself to Adolin when Adolin tries to break up with her, and then of course she makes cutting remarks to Kaladin's face, but I don't remember Shallan thinking negative things in her musings. I may totally be forgetting something though... It would be interesting to see if Veil would react to any such thoughts. I would guess Shallan wouldn't be thinking of her feelings for Kaladin, since she is repressing them onto Veil, so she has no reason to think about him much. But... another question, when she makes her cutting comments in OB, do we see any of those from Shallan's PoV? And regarding Shallan/Veil symmetries, Veil's discussion about Kholinar and the chaotic life to it reminds me a lot of how Shallan felt about Kharbranth in her first chapter (Ch. 3). Just another time when we see Veil expressing thoughts which were previously expressed by Shallan. I've never thought of it this way... I feel like Navani's courtship fit her personality style (and I have to say the romance worked better for me after learning more about past Dalinar and Navani as well), but it's a good point that if a man was that forceful to a woman, I might have been disturbed by the interactions. Someone a long ways back (actually this may have been you?) mentioned that Brandon makes his female characters the ones who usually push the relationships, especially sexual interactions. This seems to follow on this point, but it is a double standard. We are in Dalinar's head, so we know he actually desperately wants Navani, so that makes it better as well. But again... had the roles been reversed...? Even if I wasn't disturbed, I would have definitely been annoyed by the false modesty element of a women fending of a man's advances even though she actually really wanted him. (It conveys too many bad messages to men that "no" actually means "try harder"!)

@Hsien99 you’re far and away not the only one (or even not part of a small group) who believes there is foreshadowing that suggests the ending to this romantic arc in OB is not set in stone. I don’t know if you’ve read WoB on Brandon’s use of foreshadowing (Arcanum is super easy to use and search through), but Brandon says he uses foreshadowing, it is one of his favorite things to do, and he will foreshadow for future books, so it seems any complete analysis of the books has to speculate on such matters. (Whether it will come to anything, and what will actually happen, are of course matters of great debate!) You may want to come join the discussion over at the Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin thread as you’ll find a ton of people who want to dig into the romantic arc in the books and what all these potential clues Brandon put in the books could mean. (Also a lot of discussion on Shallan’s mental state, which I see is another topic that interests you.) PS: While caps is variably found as offensive around here (it’s internet yelling), emphasis with the milder italics or slightly stronger underline or bold seems to be decently well tolerated.

Aaand yes, you're right that this is from Kal's POV, but taking this one line in Oathbringer to prove your point ignores both the context that follows (as SLNC pointed out) and the fact that, while Kaladin himself never had time for art (he was a soldier, always consumed with caring for him men), I think there is ample evidence in WoR and Oathbringer that he appreciates it. This is not a focus for this post, so I won't say more. I will be doing a reread of the entire SA soon, so I will look for evidence to support my statement at that time. @Alderant what an awesome post! I don't have time to react to all of it (or all of @Isilel's either, but I will try to get to it this weekend!), but I wanted to respond to this point about Kaladin and art in particular, because I hadn't really looked into this before. First, to delve further into Shallan's interest in art, it is notable that even though she considered art, Shallan's Calling is natural history because she loves the study of it. This is something we learn about Shallan very early on ("The obvious choice was her art, and she did so love sketching. But it was more than just the drawing that attracted her - it was the study, the questions raised by observation.... So she'd chosen natural history instead." WoK Ch 3) and follows throughout the books, especially through her sketchbook pages where we see the nature is scholarly study. Early on in OB, Shallan mentions she has moved away from this scholarly drawing ("Shallan had once been more analytical in her drawing, including notes and explanations with the sketches. Lately she'd only been doing pages and pages of twisted images. Well, she'd been trained as a scholar, hadn't she? She shouldn't just draw; she should analyse, extrapolate, speculate." OB Ch. 33) and her sketchbook pages (Urithiru, spren in Kholinar, mandras) and scenes we see after this point indicate she redirects her focus back on scholarly drawing. Second, I wanted to take a look at Adolin's interest in art. We have artwork in the book showing the fashion folios he looks at, and both Kaladin ("He lowered his hands and strolled past Adolin's chair. The sketches in Adolin's book were of men in fine clothing. The drawings were quite good, their faces done in as much detail as their garments. "Fashion?" Kaladin asked." WoR Ch. 22) and Shallan ("Adolin browsed a folio, oversized by design so it wouldn't be mistaken for a woman's book... She was amused when she caught sight of the glyphs for this one, with women's script underneath for further clarification. Fashions out of Liafor and Azir." WoR, Ch. 49) note this. Adolin also notes there is little to do in the warcamps without art shows and sculpture consents (WoR, Ch. 55), so one can ascertain he likes such things. He shows interest in Shallan's drawings in Kholinar, though caring more for the portraits than the scholarly drawings ("He started through the more recent pictures, and though he noted the ones of strange spren, he idled most on the sketches of the refugees she'd done for her collection." OB Ch. 77). Third, Kaladin is shown using artwork as a means to study ("Kal looked down at his folio. It contained drawings of dissected bodies, the muscles splayed and pulled out. The drawings were so detailed. Each had glyphpairs to designate every part, and he'd committed those to memory. Now he studied the procedures, delving into the bodies of men long dead." WoK, Ch. 31). In the present, Kaladin also shows interest in Shallan's sketchbook, focusing on her mandra drawings ("'May I? Kaladin asked, nodding towards Shallan's sketch. She shrugged, so he took the sketchpad and studied her pictures of the flying beasts. As always, they were excellent." OB Ch. 99) and sparking a conversation on the nature of mandras. Kaladin also seems interested in Shallan's spren drawings in Kholinar ("The men nodded as they saw her drawings, though only Kaladin seemed to catch what she'd been doing. He looked from the drawing of the shamespren to her hand, then raised an eyebrow at her." OB Ch. 62), though this also points towards him noticing her research methods as much as caring about the drawings. I may have missed passages on all three points (these were things I remembered and tracked down the quotes), but what can we get from this? Shallan likes both art and natural history/scholarly drawings. She chooses natural history as her calling because it attracts her more. Adolin likes art, but doesn't seem interested in the scholarly drawings. Kaladin doesn't have time for art, but utilizes it as a means of study and shows interest in scholarly drawings. So.... I guess Kaladin actually has more in common with Shallan when it comes to art, since Shallan prefers the type of drawings Kaladin likes more than the type of drawings Adolin likes.

You could probably add the light at the beginning of Ch 103, Hypocrite, at the start of his dream with Nohadon as although it’s not as pleasantly described, it seems to be the same brilliant light which does not originate from the sun (Dalinar is confused about how the sunlight is pointed in another direction.)

Love this! Sometimes I think we've literally pulled apart every piece of these books, and then something comes along like this and blows me away. I've always seen this as an Adolin/Kaladin comparison, but I've never thought about it as a "Veil is Shallan while Veil is making that comparison" statement. Shallan is so strongly associated with loving storms and rain in WoR. In addition to the scenes you mention where Shallan is enthralled by the highstorms (with the winehouse date with Adolin and again in the chasms), we also have a scene during the weeping (WoR, Ch. 78, Contradictions) where she comments on liking the rain and how it makes her feel more imaginative (producing creationspren while she draws, not a Veil aspect.) Plus this WoB below on Shallan liking the rain. (I've always thought this one was, uh, interesting in the comparison between Brandon and his wife as well.) Throwing the OB quote we're discussing down here for posterity as well I wanted to address this, because I think I have a minority view. I think Adolin will be primarily the one to end the marriage. I see this as a natural progression of his "relationship issues", which have been said in WoB to be a major part of his character arc, but which have caused zero real repercussions for his character as of yet, as well as the endpoint of the lack of strong emotion towards Shallan in his viewpoints. I think this will send Shallan into a tailspin because she'll lose her anchor which will then allow/force her to actually reintegrate the aspects she's pushed onto Veil and Radiant. I think Adolin will feel tremendously guilty, and coupled with his latent guilt over Sadeas and not wanting to assume his familial duties (avoidance of being king), Adolin will also go into a tailspin (finally!) And then Adolin'll go to Rira/Iri and help liberate those nations from the Fused and fall in love with a person (boy.... ) who he will actually obsess over like a proper love story. Oh, and after all this anguish, then he can revive Maya. Meanwhile, Shallan will be sulking around Urithiru and finally getting good at her soulcasting, while Kaladin still avoids her (he's loyal to his best bro and they were married after all!), until Hesina or Laral (I'm torn...) gives him a good lecture about how he needs to stop it. And then Kaladin and Shallan fly to a mountain around Urithiru so she can draw and have an actual conversation about their feelings, while Shallan reminisces (in her PoV) about the first time Kaladin flew her up there (her first time flying!) and.... ummm, this may have diverged into fanfiction (But in all seriousness, the first paragraph is actually how I am currently hypothesizing it will go down.)

Most of us dislike this romance, so you're in good company here (I know that wasn't the exact point you were getting at though, haha.) That being said, don't worry about jumping in late! We won't hold you down and make you stay You'll also see a lot of people asking for evidence in the opposite direction, so that is very welcome! It makes a much stronger argument to confront bias and try and see the other side. I personally started in this thread because I wanted people to convince me the ending was one which was satisfying; I was desperate for evidence that there was something magical about the Shallan-Adolin romance that I missed. My big turning point was when I realized Shallan was sitting when Adolin "sees" the "real" Shallan and then stands up when Kaladin lands (this dynamic - sitting with Adolin and then standing to look at Kaladin is also present in a scene in Honor's Path.) Given Brandon's obvious symbolism regarding Shallan needing to be the girl who stood up (OB, Chapter 82, The Girl Who Stood Up), I was left with either that symbolism having to mean something or that Brandon was very sloppy in ignoring it later in the book. I chose the former and here we are! To get more to your point - evidence is what is written in the book or in a WoB. You can argue about the meaning behind it, but you can't argue that it isn't on the page (/website in the case of WoB.) To get to one conclusion or the other (Adolin or Kaladin), either side has to explain around some evidence. For a pro-Kaladin argument, it's mostly explaining around that Shallan chose Adolin and married him (which is why you get a lot of discussions about whether or not Brandon would do a divorce or otherwise how could they break up), but there doesn't seem to be a lot of meta evidence which points towards Adolin to contend with. For a pro-Adolin argument, you should read the document linked in the very first post on this thread, as it contains a lot of quotes and WoB which are theorized to point towards Kaladin that need to be contended with to arrive at a pro-Adolin conclusion. Some of these form stronger arguments than others, but there is a lot to explain around in order to come to the conclusion that Shallan and Adolin are meant to last. This quote has led to theories about how Shallan would need to divorce Adolin to save Pattern from dying earlier in the thread, yet _this_ comes shortly after: "Syl", kaladin repeated. "We jumped hand-in-hand, but she let go". And, funnily enough gets soundly ignored. No furious theorising about how Syl will abandon Kaladin or he will kill her yet again, no far-reaching predictions about his character. Crickets. Never mind that there was actually a very good reason for Shallan to prioritize Adolin, who, of them all, was in most immediate danger of suffocating if she lost him in the beads, as the only human unable to inhale stormlight in their group, while there is no such excuse for Kaladin/Syl. This has actually been brought up before (but not like I expect you to have read this whole thing!, just pointing it out.) I personally think the theory that the Shallan/Pattern bond is fraying is one which has some of the more speculative evidence - there's some there (including this quote and Pattern's lack of presence at the end of OB), but there is also evidence of them having a good bond (interactions in Shadesmar for instance.) Your point regarding Kaladin/Syl is a good one, though if you're re-reading that scene, I would look at the difference between Shallan's reaction to Pattern being missing and Kaladin's over Syl. Kaladin is frantic (immediately asking for Syl, pacing - we see this from Shallan's PoV) whereas Shallan is very nonchalant about Pattern not making it to the room, not mentioning him from when his hand slipped out of hers until he finds his way back to the room. Kaladin's reaction makes sense given what he's been through; he's lost Syl once before and is desperate to not do so again. Shallan's reaction...? Who knows. Maybe it's showing she's more rational about the fact spren don't need to breath (even if we don't hear her thought about this.) Maybe it's showing she isn't as attached to her spren as Kaladin. We can theorize about what it means, but the fact (i) Shallan clung to Adolin and lost hold of Pattern and (ii) Shallan has a vastly different reaction to losing hold of her spren than Kaladin, are things which did happened, so are open to interpretation as to their meaning. This is something which is complained about a lot with regards to the Jasnah and Elhokar deaths in particular, and I agree that neither was handled with a lot of emotion. (Not totally disregarded - there is definitely mention in the books, but not treated with a ton of emotional weight.) Do lack of expected reactions/thoughts in a PoV mean something though? Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. There have been arguments (not here but other places where I saw this complained about) that neither Jasnah nor Elhokar was a main character, so others' reactions to their deaths were only used when needed, i.e. Navani's journal and missing signs of the Parshendi changing tactics related to grief over Jasnah's death or Kaladin's comatose reaction to Moash killing Elhokar. To point out an obvious "lack of reaction means something" moment, there is Jasnah's non-reaction to Shallan stealing her soulcaster. I agree with you it's very hard to prove a negative - it's always better evidence when you have the benefit of an explicit passage rather than just the absence of anything on point. (Adolin's feelings for Shallan fall into this category for me. We have no evidence from his PoV that he has strong feelings for Shallan, but it's just absence of any strong feelings rather than Adolin explicitly thinking that he doesn't.) In my mind, it's still an open point until we have evidence one way or another, but that doesn't mean the absence of something can't be used as evidence; it's still proof that the author decided to not include something (intentionally or not.) It's just not as strong of evidence as something which directly addresses an issue, because as you point out, it may not mean anything. I'm actually not sure if you're a big Adolin fan? And are you saying this is why you're OK with Adolin being in a romance with someone not totally devoted to him/where he doesn't show feelings? (This was the point of the post of mine you quoted.) If so, I see this as being a subset of "Shadolin is good to keep Adolin in the story more" so that's good I was on the right track about why some Adolin fans are so willing to accept a romance which is not-so-satisfying from an Adolin perspective! Where does this come from? We see Kaladin in WoK flashbacks as being fascinated with drawings of human bodies (which is very akin to Shallan's interest in natural history actually.) Is there something I forget where Kaladin is anti-art? I wholeheartedly agree with this. Kaladin (as a character) got nothing from the arc. He got something from the chasms as an example of judging a lighteyes before knowing more of their story, but there was no reason to keep it going from a character-development perspective. The hypocrisy of "Kaladin has depression and shouldn't be in a relationship" coupled with "it's great Shallan got married to Adolin" drives me batty! Also the idea (as @SLNC pointed out) that Kaladin is the overprotective one, when Adolin is the one shown on the page annoying Shallan with his over-protectiveness. (This does continue into OB though in milder form, such as the beginning of Chapter 110, A Million Stars. "Shallan put her freehand on the frame of the open cargo door and leaned out over the churning depths. Adolin tried to tug her back, but she remained in place.") Notably, in the Re-Shephir confrontation, Shallan is channeling and using her difficult past to make her stronger. (This is one of my favorite Shallan passages ever, so I'm going to re-quote is below .) Shallan then realizes Re-Shephir is going to learn all of her (Shallan's) secrets ("know her completely, discover each and every one of her secrets"), since Shallan is so open at that moment, and Shallan loses her "ferocity and determination" until she decides to lie ("So she lied... She'd always been that way. She would continue that way forever.") I don't think it's any coincidence that after this Shallan huddles in her room for a day (note: I believe I read somewhere this was a week in either the alpha or beta version, but changed as readers found it unrealistic Shallan would remain holed up for so long after Jasnah's return) and then starts fracturing even more distinctly. I think this exposure of "herself" and subsequent decision to solve her doubt (or perceived shortcomings) by lying was quite detrimental to her mental health. Shallan doesn't regain the ability to face her painful memories until Thaylen City, and at that point she explicitly needs Veil and Radiant in order to do so, as her illusions start to fail when she Lightweaves her mother until Veil and Radiant emerge and grab her hands. (OB, Ch. 120, The Spear That Would Not Break, pg. 1149 US kindle edition)

Not to take away the grossness of the "Kaladin is terrible taste in men" comment (which I agree is classist, inaccurate and unfair), but are we sure Shallan knows Kaladin is into her? I know Adolin says "I see how you both look at each other" which implies Adolin thinks Kaladin likes Shallan (though I'm not 100% on that, since I do think Adolin's breaking up with Shallan is an attempt to get out of the relationship more than anything, plus in the leering scene on Honor's Path all that Adolin notices is Shallan's reaction to Kaladin, not anything which Kaladin reciprocates), but we don't hear or see anything from Shallan's PoV which makes it seem like Shallan knows Kaladin likes her romantically. As someone who used to be a 17 year old girl, I know how insecure one can be about whether or not a boy (especially one you like) is actually into you... Kaladin, as you say, isn't making any overt moves. He very mildly flirts with her, but we know he's into Shallan based on his PoV thoughts (which she doesn't know), not his actions. Kind of along those lines, but I've wondered if an element is Shallan's "rejection" of Kaladin is partially also due to insecurity; Adolin feeds her all these cheesy lines and is her betrothed, whereas the other option (since neither appears to not be an option to her ) is someone who is kind of aloof towards her. This aside, I agree Shallan (and maybe Adolin, though it's so hard to tell what he's thinking given the massive disparity between how Shallan sees him and what we see from Adolin's PoV) is definitely making a statement by publicly making out with Adolin in front of Kaladin. There's another time in Kholinar when Kaladin notices she kisses Adolin in a way more intimate than previously (this is when Adolin and Kaladin go to Shallan's room, so Shallan definitely know Kaladin is watching), which I always thought was an interesting observation given we know from Shallan's PoV that she's constantly struggling with her feelings for Kaladin throughout the Kholinar arc.

This was exactly my feelings as well. I actually liked the Shadolin romance a lot in WoR and in the preview chapters. It just... wasn't sold well in OB. (Neither was Shalladin; I would have just been as disappointed about that being the end of OB as well!) I really don't get how saying you aren't satisfied with Shadolin means you don't like Adolin. In fact I see it as exactly the opposite (see below.) I don't understand how a huge fan of Adolin can be a huge fan of Shadolin! I think the major disconnect is that the majority of this thread is about piecing together the evidence to try and discern where Brandon is headed with the romantic arc. A lot of the evidence other than the obvious "Shallan married Adolin" (accompanied by "Brandon will never break up a marriage") seems to point away from this being the ending of the arc. That's not to contradict poster's subjective feelings on the arc. There are a lot of ways one can subjectively be happy with the ending of OB which have been expressed here: some posters hate the braided rose trope and/or love the flirtatious prince changes his ways for the right girl trope; some posters think since Kaladin has depression he shouldn't be in a relationship; some posters just hate romance and want whatever outcome will lead to less of it in the books; some posters do not care about Kaladin's part of the arc and found satisfaction in how the Shallan/Adolin relationship on its own was constructed. But in the end, most of those are reader's personal opinions, which are totally fine, but also open to opposition that the arc is not objectively over (i.e. Brandon isn't pointing to this being the end.) So that's why you're seeing a lot on one side. So going back to the above since you expressing how you weren't satisfied with the romance made me think of it... I am confused why a reader who loves Adolin is happy with Shadolin. (Not particular to you Maxal, but just in general for the fact we seem to always see "Adolin lover" = "Shadolin lover".) Taking aside some of the debatable aspects of Shadolin, we know two things to be true: (1) Brandon has said parts of Shallan are in love with Adolin and parts are in love with Kaladin and (2) Brandon did not write strong feelings for Shallan into Adolin's PoV. I do not see how a reader who is in love with Adolin can be happy with a romance for Adolin with these two elements! Adolin married a woman who we know (because the author told us) loves another man as well as Adolin, and the author chose not to show Adolin having any strong feelings for his now wife (either by design or just through omission.) Wouldn't a lover of Adolin want him in a relationship with a woman where the woman only loved Adolin and all parts of her wanted to marry Adolin? Wouldn't a lover of Adolin want to see from Adolin's PoV his love for that woman? I just don't see how an Adolin lover can be satisfied with what we got and want that romance to be the end all and be all of Adolin's romance! Doesn't he deserve better? I can see a couple (maybe subconscious) motivations though. One, Adolin being married to one of our three main characters keeps him as a central character, so this tepid romance is OK as a compromise for keeping Adolin in the forefront of the story. Two, the love of Adolin means a desire for Adolin to "win" in all situations, and marrying Shallan is considered a "win" over Kaladin (I see this also come into the idea that Adolin had zero other options for women to court/marry, and thus it must be Shallan. So Adolin "needs" this "win".) Three, the reader identifies with Shallan, and thus can insert her/himself in the relationship and imagine her/himself as the one in the relationship with Adolin. Four, the reader recognizes the Shadolin relationship doesn't have much depth and likes the idea of Adolin not being that attached to his romantic partner, because then the reader can keep up the fantasy that he/she is the one who is right for Adolin. (I realize these get a bit more crazy as they go along ) But in conclusion, I don't get why loving Adolin equates to loving Shadolin! (And vice versa that disliking Shadolin means disliking Adolin!) It just doesn't add up. Would you want to be married to someone who also loves someone else? Or married to someone who you don't feel strong feelings for (or where the author who created you doesn't feel the need to show these feelings)? Absolutely not on my end! (Currently auditioning for president of the newest SA fan club: Adolin fans who believe he deserves better than his romance with Shallan )

You’re latching onto something which makes no part of my argument because you think that’s something which can be attacked. It doesn’t matter what Wetlander/Alice thinks in the quotes I gave. What I was pointing to is what Peter thinks, and I guarantee you he knows more than you or I or anyone on this board about Brandon’s future plans given he’s an alpha and a beta reader and is intimately involved with everything Stormlight. But it really doesn’t matter as that was my third set of proof that Shallan’s mental state is still an issue. The other two quotes came from Brandon himself. You’re right; Brandon could do anything in the year break. But it seems rather implausible he will have Shallan all healed up given what he’s told us about her current state. I think that’s something you hope will happen, and that’s fine, but that doesn’t make it more likely to happen.

Kaladin killing Heleran was still addressed. I’m not dictating how this would be addressed (it would have been great actually to see Dalinar be understanding, in terms of both Dalinar’s and Kaladin’s growth and acceptance of mistakes), but the fact it was not addressed at all (besides an off hand mention by someone in Bridge Four, I forget who, that Kaladin hadn’t explained what happened to Moash) is something which annoys me. Oh, and on the thinking about shards in a desolation, in other contexts there is still plenty of thought to this; retrieving Teleb’s shardblade after he fell, the fact his shardplate has to be left was noted, Adolin telling Skar and Drehy to pick up the pieces of his shardplate after Narak, when that shardbearer fell at Thaylen City someone’s (I think it was Adolin’s?) first thought was to retrieve the shardblade. It seems incongruous that a full shardbearer goes missing and nary a thought is given. If you’re fine with it that’s cool though! I’m guessing you have other little things which nag you, and this is one which does for me

Only if you think Dalinar finding out that Kaladin was involved in the plot to kill Elhonar boring. Or you think it wouldn't cause Kaladin any consternation to lie about what happened. But I agree it seems swept under the rug.

I'm not sure which beta quote you're referring to. One was relaying what Brandon himself told a beta. The other I quoted that to show the bafflement of Peter (Brandon's personal assistant so I consider his opinion to have more weight than your average reader) about how a reader could feel Shallan's mental health issues were supposed to feel resolved. So we have Brandon himself saying it's not resolved, Brandon telling a beta it's not resolved and Brandon's personal assistant saying it's not resolved. I'm not sure what else would be more convincing on the issue!

Well... considering Brandon said at a signing Shallan has a way to go, and told a beta reader she had a long road of recovery ahead of her, and Peter Ahlstrom is baffled that readers would think Shallan's mental state is supposed to feel resolved, I guess it's understandable that readers might think there's.... still a ways to go with this arc. (I know you don't like reading it, so sorry about all the evidence which points to the fact it's not resolved!) I... don't get this. I don't think anyone is supposed to think the issue is resolved! I mean, I understand that there are some people who are tired of her fractured state and HOPE it's resolved so they don't have to read it any more, but I thought it was pretty clear that she's still got quite a ways to go. [–]PeterAhlstrom I agree. This clause in the question was a bit baffling to me. link

I see it less as questioning Kaladin and more as asking what happened to two (supposedly precious) shards. I would think someone would ask the question about how a Kholin shardbearer just disappeared taking his shards with him. There is a factual explanation for this (said shardbearer tried to kill the king and then ran away when Kaladin stopped him), but I don't see Kaladin being able to give the explanation without telling his part in it. So, I'm assuming no one even asked what happened to those shards. And that's just inconsistent with their supposed value. (Or if someone asked and Kaladin lied, that's a big issue too!)

I think this could be interpreted differently (friend vs. drinking buddy) based on personal and cultural differences, but I think we can all agree drinking buddy does not equal romantic partner. Since we have a WoB that Shallan herself is under all of her masks (and thus Veil really equals Shallan), this means Adolin is treating Shallan as not a romantic partner in some contexts, which points to him reinforcing her fragmentation (unintentional though it may be.)

This annoys me to no end, especially that neither Dalinar not Adolin question it. You leave a full shardbearer back to protect to king, there is an attempt on the king's life, full shardbearer just disappears - and there are no questions...? All we see in OB is Bridge 4 wondering about Moash a tiny bit. I hope something comes of it in the next book, but I kind of doubt it.

I can't quite get there on Kaladin/Syl's bond fraying being a good metric for which to evaluate the potential of Shallan/Pattern's bond fraying. Not only are they different spren with very different methods of strengthening their bond (oaths vs. truths), the progression doesn't line up. To break it down: Kal/Syl: Syl's first Radiant dies and she is in hibernation/near death for thousands of years. When she comes back to the physical realm she is flighty, confused, incoherent, etc. When Kal starts abandoning his oaths, she starts reverting to this state. When she is "revived" with Kal's third oath, she doesn't come back up in that incoherent state and have to regain everything - she is normal Syl, or even Syl with greater clarity. Shallan/Pattern: We do not see the initial bonding, relationship or abandoning of truths. We pick up with Pattern after Shallan has started re-saying her truths and Pattern is "revived" (i.e. in line with Kal/Syl post-third oath.) He is as you say, incoherent, confused, etc., very like Syl was when she first came into the physical realm after thousands of years but not like Syl was when she was revived. The conclusion to this IMO is either (i) when we first see Pattern in WoR this is his first foray into the physical realm or the first in a long, long time (10 years is not long for a spren) which accounts for his behavior or (ii) Pattern's progression through abandoning oaths/truths and revival is not analogous Syl's. If you believe Shallan was bonded to another cryptic when she was younger (which some people have posited), then Syl could be a valid comparison. If not, it doesn't align. Another point (if you want to use Kal/Syl as an example for Shallan/Pattern) is that Syl's reaction to Kal starting to abandon his oaths is not in line with how we see her when she is revived from that abandonment (i.e. Syl immediately pre-chasms is different from Syl immediately post-third third oath), so I don't think we can say Pattern with his bond being strained needs to be in line with Pattern immediately post-revival (i.e. Pattern in early WoR.) Of course, maybe it is for Pattern, but if we try and use Syl has any sort of example then it doesn't line up. I liked your analysis of Pattern and found it fun to read, but I think we disagree on a very fundamental point; Pattern is a talker and at the end of OB he is talking less and less often. In Shallan final viewpoints (I think last four? - when Adolin "sees" her, she chooses Adolin, making the map in Urithiru and prepping for wedding), Pattern says one line (the "this is a good you" line.) Compared to mid/late-WoR and early OB, that is a lot less talking. Maybe coincidental because Brandon didn't have the space to fit it in, but that's where you get the bulk of the "Pattern seems to be fading" argument; it's because he's not part of the narrative at the end of OB nearly as much as he had been previously. For me, the strongest evidence that Pattern's bond with Shallan is fine is that she can Lightweave the world map in Urithiru just fine and also do her Lightweaving/possible Soulcasting trick to create her illusions at the end. She does not seem to have any issues with drawing in stormlight or her powers. However, to argue against this, I don't think we can draw much comparison to Kal/Syl (unless we say Pattern was freshly in the physical realm in early WoR.) It's just tricky to definitively know one way or another. I don't disagree with any of this, but Starla's point was they they could help each other, and I was pointing out that Brandon has put on the page that their mental health issues were better at times when around one another, i.e. he gave us scenes where Kal's main mental health issue (depression) lessened when around Shallan (feeling lighter) and where Shallan main mental health issue (memory repression) lessened when around Kaladin (telling her secrets). Maybe this will not be explored further; maybe it will be explored in a future book. But one can't argue that this dynamic wasn't included in the books. Hey now! You and I have been over this quite a bit; I agree with you about the Adolin/Shallan arc (and taking Kaladin out of it, I quite like their relationship), but from the "Adolin sees the real Shallan" scene onward, I think we get a bunch of warning signs in the text. But that well trodden ground I agree with you... I think Kaladin would have to have super human perception to get what was going on. He doesn't get it. His conversation with Shallan indicates he doesn't get it. But there's no reason he should have gotten it. But, we still got our author showing us Shallan pushed past her repression with him (i.e. told him her secrets). Maybe it's just representative of life; sometimes you share deep things with people and have a connection but in the end the moment means nothing. Maybe it's a way of showing the reader a lot of potential in a relationship, though. Given Brandon doesn't seem to be a writer who wastes page space on pointing out "sometimes moments mean nothing", I choose the latter. (Well, for that and a lot of other reasons which take a 17 page google doc to elaborate, LOL.)