Dreamstorm

I completely ageee that neither recognizes that the other needs to grow past these mental health issues, but part of that is because said mental health issues (at least as it’s been portrayed on the page) aren’t as prevalent when around the other person. Kaladin doesn’t know Shallan is unhealthily repressing her memories because she spontaneously told him brutal memories about killing her father and her painful childhood; he can’t perceive repression when that’s not how she’s acted around him. When Kaladin is around Shallan he is lighter and less depressed; he banters and jokes and broods less and comments on this “lightness” repeatedly. One could argue that they have been around each other enough that they should have picked up on the extent of each other’s mental health issues or that Kaladin should have guessed the unhealthiness of Shallan’s way of overcoming her memories from her comment that she was “fracturing” (though that’s giving him pretty super human powers of perception when, again, this goes against his experience of her being willing to share painful memories), but we’ve been presented as a reader with scenes that illustrate each other’s mental health issues are lessened around the other. I agree that they need to realize the extent of each other’s issues in order to be in a functional relationship (or take major steps to overcome them prior to entering into a relationship), but we’ve already seen examples of how they lessen each other’s issues. So I agree with @Starla‘s point that they could help each other in this regard, and though it’s not the time in either of their narratives IMO, Brandon has pretty explicitly set up that the potential is there.

When has their bond been in real danger in the past? (That we’ve seen on screen - it broke before the books started, but since they re-bonded, which I peg as beginning of WoR since that’s when Shallan first “met” him onscreen.)

Good point that they are different. I think orthodox actually would tend more towards Navani wanting to use traditional Vorin oaths (adhering to traditions), but you may be thinking something different with regards to orthodoxy? I very much agree - Adolin is representative of the "perfect" version of the life Shallan expected - being married off to someone for practical reasons. She expected to be a pawn, which she was as part of her betrothal to Adolin, but instead of marrying some awful older man (which her father would have done in a heartbeat), she gets paired with the dashing young prince. It's the fantasy of any young girl from Shallan's background. (Which is exactly what she expresses to Jasnah when she is told of the betrothal.) While I agree with you here, I think there is the alternative of Dark Adolin which would also provide a lot of impact on our main characters as well as development for Adolin. Or maybe Adolin teetering on the dark path. His lack of remorse over Sadeas doesn't seem healthy and if he were to cause the end of his marriage, perhaps he would finally get rattled in a way which would fundamentally alter him. (And then when he resists this, his character arc reward will be the revival of Maya.) But I could also see death. I just like having Adolin around, so I would rather see struggles and then have him be part of the inevitable insanity that will be book 5.

I love this analysis on why this topic is generating so much discussion on one end and so much consternation about the fact it is being discussed on the other end. But... what character do we know has issues with sustaining relationships? What character has this aspect of his character been beaten into our heads? And this is the same character where we have a near-absent evidence from his perspective that he has strong feelings for his new wife. And the same character where we hear the complaint that he does no wrong and suffers no repercussions. I think we're set up to think, wow, Shallan is going to regret this once she stops avoiding her feelings and everyone is going to hate when she wrongs poor Adolin. But instead we have Adolin who has a demonstrated pattern of messing up romantic relationships be the catalyst for the end. I think it's a lovely way of flipping it on its head. And starting a downward spiral for Adolin which he can dig himself out of and then actually earn his Maya revival. But these are obviously just my thoughts, as like you say, Brandon could go a lot of ways with this!

I point that out if you read down the post. However, since Navani is devout (we have WoB on this see below), I would argue that even though they could not use a Vorin officiant (since no one would perform the ceremony - it's not that they didn't want to have a traditional Vorin wedding), she would have wanted the oaths to be traditional. This cannot be proven or unproven since we haven't seen another wedding ceremony, though would make a good question for Brandon. I was addressing a different point - people were talking about how Shallan would be breaking an oath if she divorced Adolin. I was pointing out I think we have textual evidence that divorce absent oath-breaking would be permissible under Vornism (so Shallan could leave Adolin without breaking her oaths.) You can definitely allowed to have your opinion about where you would like the plot to go though! Personally, I don't think Adolin is in love with Shallan, and I would like his "relationship issues" to cause the break-up. I think we need that (hammered into our head) issue of Adolin's to actually have some repercussions.

I've said it in another thread, but I think divorce is permissible in Vorinism, and we've actually seen an example of how this would work. First, the marriage oaths are similar to the liege lord oaths. Bolded parts are what I consider the "oath" being said here. Marriage oath: Liege lord oath: Second, we were told how one can can annul a liege lord oath (see quote below about discussion of Amaram seceding from Sadeas.) I don't know why marriage would be different - we have WoB that marriage is about oaths, so I don't know why annulling it would be different from any other oath of a similar nature. So, I think Brandon could very easily have Adolin and Shallan divorce without oath-breaking and have it fit within the cannon surrounding oaths. (Assumptions at play in this idea: Navani/Dalinar oaths were traditional (my thinking is we know Navani is quite religious, so I imagine even though they had a non-Vorin officiant, she would want to use traditional oaths), highking oath Elhokar gave is traditional liege lord oath, and marriage oaths do not have some extra-special implications which would make them treated differently.) But since I'm consolidating all the stuff on this into one post (was in a couple in the other thread), I think the main argument for the reason Shallan and Adolin will not get divorced is not that divorce is impossible in-world, but that Brandon would never do it. I think a lot of this is ascribed to his religious views on the sanctity of marriage. We won't know for sure unless he tells us his view (or unless he shows a divorce), but the fact he put a gay couple in his books shows some willingness to portray situations in his books which would not be supported by his religious views. In fact, homosexual behavior leads to excommunication in the LDS church whereas divorce, while frowned upon, is allowed. From what I can find, the LDS church itself reports its divorce rate at 6% whereas others say it's more like 10%. Far below the national average, but the point is it's still possible to be a practicing Mormon and get divorced. If you openly engage in homosexual behavior, however, you become apostate (i.e. considered to have renounced your faith.) (Side note - this is actually a recent change (fall 2015 ostensibly in reaction to to the Supreme Court decision on gay marriage - previously there used to be a "turning the blind eye" approach), and below is a link to an interesting Atlantic article on how it affected existing gay Mormon couples. I have wondered if the real-life Drehy (who is married to a man) is Mormon and how this has affected him.) So based on Brandon's religious views, portraying an openly gay couple is more radical than portraying a divorce. Of course, Drehy is a side character so it's easy for those offended to "edit" that out without touching the main plotline, whereas a divorce of Shallan and Adolin would be impossible to ignore. https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2016/03/lgbt-mormons/475035/

The below is pretty dirty in Brandon-speak. Also throwing in the WoR quote where Kaladin is aroused. You can say Kaladin doesn't want to be in a romantic relationship with Shallan (which I agree he is telling himself right now), but it's pretty obvious he'd jump all over the chance to have sex with her if it was permitted (culturally and by Kal's own moral code.) I'm guessing it was along the lines of, "UGHHHH, now I have to go through this courting thing AGAIN. Why won't any relationship work out for me?? This time no one can blame it me at least. Wait.... I chose to save my father over the girl. UGH, everyone is totally going to say this is my fault. And Jasnah isn't even around to find me another one to make it easy. Why can't I just duel, lounge and flirt my whole life away?!?"

Another point for Shadolin - Shallan and Adolin both are bonded to semi-conscious spren (Non-serious snark, but I couldn't resist ) I'm with you here, but my guess is SA4 will be a big book for Adolin. Things which I think are hinted at that could happen next book: Dalinar reduced opinion of him, finding out how his mother died, breaking up with his wife, having his ex-wife start dating his best friend, something more with Sadeas murder (likely internal), Maya revival, conflict with Rira (mother's homeland). Now if we go by how OB went for Adolin, none of that will come to pass and/or even if it did, it will have no impact on him. But there seems to be a lot of plot threads which will give him some interest. But I know everyone said that after WoR too LOL.

I think the strongest argument for revival is Maya attacking the Fused in Shadesmar. Like @SLNC says, right after the realms were briefly unified, everyone was much closer to the spiritual and cognitive realm (Jasnah comments on that), so I can see the naming, speaking, earlier summoning, etc. rationally being just a consequence of that (and having it be a fake out.) BUT when you take into account the attack by Maya in Shadesmar, you can't explain that behavior away by the closer realmatic connection, so I see it as the best piece of evidence. In addition to the above, I think it's going to happen for a totally non-logical reason. Not because there's any big plot reason (though I'm sure Brandon will fit it in nicely) or because it will have strong consequences for other revivals or information (though those could happen too) or because it fits into other character's plots (which admittedly it might take some of that "flow" away by diverting attention from Lift as Edgedancer), but because I think it's a lovely fan service arc which gives Adolin something which is uniquely "his". I can't see Brandon teasing it (not only in the book but through WoBs as well) and then taking it away from the readers. It's one of the things my non-fanatic reader friends always comment on ("I bet Adolin will revive his shardblade, that's so cool!") I 100% agree with this though I come to a different conclusion with how it will end, ha!

You clearly didn't read all 81 pages There are pages of just Adolin discussion and pages and pages of just Shallan discussion. (Poor Kaladin does seem to get the shaft.) So anything related to either Adolin or Shallan or Kaladin is fair game!

Traditionally, it's promoting the idea of two characters having a romantic relationship and explaining why you love the idea of them together. Here, anything which discusses a romantic relationship is considered shipping, as some people seem to think Brandon plots and foreshadows every aspect of his books besides romantic relationships

One thing of note is that in her “powered up” moments in OB, the first (Re-Shephir) she is actively recalling her suppressed memories (before she gets nervous and pulls back) and appears to be channeling her “full” self (based on how she describes herself, though it is not explicit in text she is calling on her masks - admittedly she hadn’t developed as much reliance on Veil and Radiant as unique personas at this point - Radiant seems only needed at that time when Adolin was teaching her to sword fight), and the second (TC battle) she appears to be subconsciously, even if not actively, channeling her suppressed memories (she brings forth illusions from her lost sketch book and most notably an illusion of her mother) and is only able to create the army when she consciously is channeling her “full” self (locking hands with Veil and Radiant.) Her TC army would not been possible without the connection with Veil and Radiant in order to deal with her memories. (This makes it even more concerning when she “stuffed” Veil and Radiant in the “back part of her brain” just a few scenes later.) It seems for powerful Shallan we need (a) acceptance, or at least confrontation with, her painful memories and (b) integration of all three masks. Neither of those elements is present (as least based on the text we are given) in Shallan’s supposed “happy” moments at the end of the book. @BraidedRose That’s a great point that the arrival of her brothers doesn’t seem to trigger her in any way... she now believes herself to blame for all of her father’s horrific behavior towards them we see in WoR (as false at that belief is) and she also knows definitively how Heleran died, and yet zero of that even goes through her mind when she sees them. The whole thing is very hard to reconcile.

I just went through the entire beta reader AMA today, and I found the discussion on Shallan's mental state to be interesting. All of the betas who commented as well as Peter (Brandon's assistant) found it odd that anyone would think Shallan's mental health issues were resolved. I particularly liked this quote below from a beta who asked Brandon about Shallan's progress. To me this supports the idea that her "control" over creating her masks has improved, as evidenced by her strength in deciding she did not need more masks in order to create her army at the Thaylen City battle, but the other things people point to as "progress", i.e. Adolin seeing the "real" her, her certainty at her romantic decision, her discordant happiness at the end, aren't the focal points of the progress which was made. Lack of further fracturing is something to be celebrated, so I can definitely see that as progress, and I love the prose we got at that moment - Shallan almost faltering at seeing her mother's illusion, the strength of her full self of all three masks combined, her resolve in seeing she needs no more masks. That is the girl who stood up.

Uh, the real question is why it bothers you so much. Just don't read any thread which touches on the topic...? Threads are pretty clearly labeled.

Someone should edit Coppermind, because it says one of the Progression blades (Vedel's or Pailiah's) is missing per what Taravangian told Szeth, when I don't believe there is any other basis for this.

Yeah, a lot of people hate romance plots, a lot of people love Shadolin, some people are just kinda jerks, so they aren't going to want there to be anything more (or just want to be rude), so they will condescend any attempt to make discussing it about anything but "omg Shalladin is my favorite" type feelings. As a consequence for both us (since we have to deal with the condescension) and them (since they have to deal with knowing people discuss something they really don't want discussed), online communities force interaction in a way which doesn't happen in real life. I'll take the pro-Shadolin side of this. We know from WoB that Shallan has made a step forward in both her control of her masks (I'm using masks now since that is the Brandon-approved word) and in implementing Wit's advice. My personal belief is that step was during the Thaylen City battle when she forcibly stopped herself from creating other masks and restricted herself to just the three. One of these masks, Shallan, is debatably not even a mask, but Shallan with certain painful aspects pushed to the side and onto Veil and Radiant. Adolin prefers and selected this Shallan, but he also has told her he's fine with the cracked inside of her (i.e. the things she pushed away.) So what to make of it... Adolin is going to help Shallan further repress Veil and Radiant by preferring Shallan to them (we see this with him treating Veil differently) and that will help Shallan "suffocate" those masks further until she won't be able to rely on them. Once she can't rely on them, she will be forced to reintegrate the aspects of herself to shuffled off onto Veil and Radiant, which in turn will make Shallan herself stronger by being less fragmented. Adolin's preference for Shallan over Veil and Radiant will help her get there. The main issue I see is who will Shallan be with those other pieces reintegrated, but since Adolin has already said he accepts all of Shallan (and it's his personality in general) I see him just rolling with the punches and accepting whatever may come. The more concerning side is how Shallan will deal with this, but since Adolin will be an anchor throughout the whole process, I doubt she will abandon this anchor; they will have shared so much together she will not want to put aside that shared history even if he doesn't match the ideal for reintegrated Shallan the way he did for Shallan minus those less conforming parts of herself. We all evolve with our partners in our relationships, and both Adolin and Shallan (and particularly Adolin) have shown themselves to be very adaptable.

In response to what I bolded, that's twisting it around. You are the most important person in your life, so in a relationship, you need to first take care of you. So of course there can be relationships where flaws of your partner are so great that it is not healthy for you to be in that relationship. Of course it's OK to disengage from the relationship/not engage at all. (These can be some of the hardest things to do!) It's not about you needing to love someone more in order to cure someone of an ailment (addiction is a disease by the way, at least it is typically classified as a brain disorder*), but it's about loving all of a person, flaws and warts and diseases and all. It's easy to love a perfect person, or more typically, the idealized version of a person. It is hard to see all of the bad things and still love the person. That to me is pure love - knowing the bad things about someone in and out and still loving them. But that in no way means you need be with someone who has destructive flaws. You have to take care of yourself first and foremost. Off-topic on the above, but we have a Navani chapter when Dalinar is in the middle of his drunken episode. I think the quote below exemplifies her attitude; she is pissed that she has to be the one to keep it all together, but she knows that's what you do for someone you love. Edit: I just went down a google rabbit hole on addiction as a disease vs. not a disease, and there's a lot of contentious debate! So I wasn't trying to start that there

As an aside, I've always found this a very vacuous quote. Is it true love to love your husband's alcoholism? I totally disagree, I'm with @wotbibliophile that this is a beautiful quote. To me, real love is to love someone through their flaws and faults and to see those imperfections as part of that person, the person who you love. You don't get to pick and choose the good things of a person and just love those parts; to really love someone, you have to love the bad things, or else you don't love the whole person. You can of course support your partner's fight against a disease (alcoholism), but your love for them (ideally) should be the same whether they are in the throes of an addictive episode or 5 years sober. I don't think a lot of people live up to this ideal, but this does seem, to me, what love should be. Btw, I think Navani and Dalinar is a good example of this. Navani doesn't question her love for Dalinar, her wanting to be with him, or that he is still the man she knows he is when he regresses into alcoholism. I attribute this steadfast love as part of the reason Dalinar was able to stand up to Odium. He had someone who was there when he stumbled, who would be there when he picked himself up and tried to do better. That is very powerful. I like to look at this from a "Brandon-speak" perspective. (I think my personal threshold for "love" is much higher than his.) He told us that "Shallan" loves Adolin and Veil loves Kaladin in the reddit post. I think we are supposed to see Kaladin saying he doesn't love Shallan as him avoiding his feelings (which he's been doing allllll book), so my guess is Kaladin is Brandon-speak in love with Shallan. As you all know, I have strong feelings about the fact Adolin is not in love with Shallan (Brandon-speak love or else wise) due to his lack of thinking about and even noting Shallan's existence. So the way I see it, since Brandon also confirmed that realShallan is underneath her masks, realShallan is in love with both Kaladin and Adolin, but only Kaladin actually returns her feelings. Of course, Kaladin is repressing those feelings for Shallan, just like realShallan is repressing those feelings for Kaladin (onto Veil), and Adolin is committing to Shallan anyway because that's what is expected of him. A total mess! This is really beautiful. In the two "hating each other" scenes where Shallan is slammed for her lighteyed arrogance, she really is just trying to survive (fit in with Tyn who essentially has her captive, ingratiate herself with the Kholins as she has nothing else in the world besides that connection.) I would be disappointed if this was the case - it was only a book ago! But agreed authors are fallible and that's the big fear; this was supposed to be a great love story with Shallan and Adolin that just didn't work out on the page.

I'm a little confused about what you're addressing here. We know Brandon uses foreshadowing ("FS") which stretches across multiple books, both because we've seen it in action (e.g. Mistborn; WoB discussing FS in book1 for book3: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/141-mistborn-the-final-empire-annotations/#e2307) and also because he's said so (noting FS is for books ways in the future: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/172-oathbringer-san-diego-signing/#e8568; noting FS in AoL is for next MB trilogy: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/198-general-twitter-2011/#e4232.) As I mentioned before, FS is different than character arcs - hints of what is to come versus transformation of a character over the course of the book. So, we can definitely look at FS outside of OB in order to analyze what Brandon is hinting at may be coming. (You can, of course, interpret it differently! That's the fun of it. But you can't pretend Brandon doesn't FS and that it's not a relevant (if obviously not always precise) predictor of plot lines in the future.) You can certainly use your experience to explain why you see things the way you do! I don't think I ever said you couldn't or shouldn't. I was explaining that I wasn't arguing over whether certain "red flags" presented in the last chapter for Shadolin could be overcome (I think they theoretically could), but that my point was why Brandon decided to include them at all. You could see this as Brandon wanting to show that despite issues to come (which he's hinting at) the strength of the Shadolin relationship (as emphasized by the repeated discussion of Adolin's "strong arms" which symbolizes the strength of their relationship) is FS for Shadolin to overcome those issues. Hopefully that makes more sense - we were talking about two different aspects of analysis here. On the art v. natural history, I'll add the quotes since I don't think you know what part I'm talking about (i.e. it's Shallan herself who makes the comparison, not something we have to work to find as a reader.) But first, when does Shallan describe Adolin as a whitespine? That's not something I recall seeing, so I would appreciate you pointing it out. Quote on Shallan's choice of calling: Quote on Shallan comparing Adolin to Kaladin: Note I did have a discussion on whether OB flipped this metaphor by making Kaladin the fine art and Adolin the natural history (due to Shallan's comment about Kaladin being a picture on the wall she liked to admire.) I'm spoilering my discussion on that in case you want to read it. As I say, I don't see evidence for changing the original (nail on the head) comparison such that Adolin is the natural history analog. (And since you find that scary, you probably wouldn't like that anyway!) Perhaps this is actually hinting Shallan will change her Calling to art? She's thinking about changing her Devotary, so maybe she could do both! Ok, let me see I can understand what you're saying here and how this relates to Kaladin. (Because we're trying to find a way for this love triangle to have some payoff for Kaladin in analyzing this.) In WoR, it was the beginning of his potential feelings for Shallan, so this was a way of seeing her not just as just a lighteyes but instead a real human. In OB, this was the end of his potential feelings for Shallan, so this was a way of reducing her to being a support person like Tien versus a romantic interest. Mention one - elevating Shallan to new status. Mention two - reducing Shallan to just friend status. Is this right? This still isn't character payoff for Kaladin IMO - he's not learning anything new, it's not doing anything to progress his character arc - but I can see how the context is a bit different. So I think I get what you're saying, but that doesn't get me closer to seeing how this is a reason for pages and pages of Kaladin's involvement in this love triangle. So, I think you're still insisting when I'm saying agency and independence this means "completely isolated and alone" and that a male (or any other person) cannot be a part of the journey. I'm going to quote myself from above about how Dalinar had a lot of support, but that in the crucial moment, he had to make his decision for himself. To be clear (because this didn't come across last time), this isn't about Dalinar's issues in comparison to Shallan's issues, but about how Dalinar had a supportive romantic relationship which helped him get there though his partner wasn't guiding him to his ultimate moment of realization. I have no problem with Adolin supporting Shallan; I have a problem with him being the one to "see" Shallan - and that being the touchstone moment - versus Shallan seeing that for herself. Regardless of this, you're not going to solve the issue of how Brandon disparately treated his two male versus female main protagonists. You can look at a wider scope of characters, you can say you love reading about dependent women, but in the end, there is a difference which does play directly into societal stereotypes. But that doesn't have to bother you for the reasons you state! What scene do you see as Shallan asking Adolin for help? Once I know where you're coming from with that, I can address if I see it connected to the marriage. (I don't know your starting point, so I can't hope to understand it from your perspective!)

The point is not what could matter or not in a relationship in real life, but the fact Brandon decided to include all of these items in the last scene we see together of Adolin and Shallan. To put another way, it's not if they are insurmountable, but that they were mentioned in the book in the first place and in what context. If you're addressing the foreshadowing, it has nothing to do with their personalities or what would or would not work in real life or in the book. (I think there are arguments both ways on that one.) It's about literary additions which "hint" where the author is heading. Another one besides the sitting/standing is comparing the WoK discussion where Shallan explains why she chose natural history over art for her Calling versus her explanation of the difference between Adolin as fine art and Kaladin as rugged naturalism late in WoR. (If you can't find this, I can pull the exact quotes and references for you.) It has nothing do with the actual subject matter, but the author using it as a metaphor and foreshadowing for Shallan's eventual choice. Just like the above, the analysis is about why the author included these things. Foreshadowing is different from bookending a character arc (hints of what is to come versus transformation of a character over the course of the book.) I'll give you Kaladin being over Laral could be foreshadowing his decision with Shallan. That doesn't solve "Kaladin has no character arc purpose in the love triangle", but I can see it being foreshadowing! (Btw - I also don't think "Kaladin did nothing" is Brandon's point of the book. I was just trying to find some way to get something out of the love triangle for Kal!) Can you explain this for me? I don't see them as different. I must not have formulated this clearly, because I was explaining that having moments of realization with agency and independence does not mean one is alone or without relationships (i.e. I was not saying one should "never accept any dependence on a man or romance with a man" (quoting you from earlier post)) and was using Dalinar as an example (though obviously putting "person" in for "man" as this applies equally no matter the context.) Agreed Shallan is different than either Dalinar or Kaladin or actually any other character. That doesn't mean I'm not offended that our main female protagonist requires dependence and our men do not. It still follows the stereotype like I explained previously. Ok, so you seem to agree with me on the disproportionate treatment of men vs. women for our mains, but you think it's OK because we have side characters who don't follow stereotypical female lines. Being good on a larger scale does not for me negate the issue on a smaller scale (to take our earlier hypothetical, do you think it would matter to women of color if there were some side characters who didn't conform to the "strong and all alone" stereotype even though our main character did?), but I can understand we draw the line at a different place, which is totally fine as that's just our own personal tolerance for it. (It offends me; you're fine because you see balance when you widen the sample set to all female characters.) I get where you're coming from here, so hopefully you can see where I'm coming from even if you don't agree! I'm confused. You see the scene where Adolin tries to break up/Shallan says she needs help as not connected to them getting married? Can you explain what you mean here a little differently? I'm thinking we may be thinking of a different "moment" when she asked Adolin for help, as what I see as the moment immediately precedes (as in it's literally the Shallan viewpoint right before) when they are cuddling while discussing the state of Roshar and Shallan is musing about how the wedding was scheduled.

Hi! I was traveling yesterday, so couldn't respond. So if you're will to keep going on the points we were talking about @Greywatch, here goes! I think we actually agree here with what has happened... Shallan has masks she puts on. Underneath all of them is realShallan. However, only some of Shallan's masks have some of her characteristics (i.e. putting her boldness onto Veil), but no one mask has all of them. The "Shallan" mask has the most of realShallan and can be seen as her anchor mask (i.e. if we had to choose one, that would be the most-realShallan.) I think where we differ is what this means going forward. You are correct that people change over time, and though you didn't say it, the natural follow-on is that just because people change (here it would be Shallan "taking back" the characteristics she puts onto V/R), that doesn't mean their relationships can't shift to accommodate that change. I think you would say Adolin has shown himself capable of shifting to accommodate the change that will likely occur in Shallan, so it doesn't matter that she wasn't whole when he "saw" the real her - that "her" was as real as she could be at the moment, and that is good enough. I don't dispute that is possible (or even probably from an Adolin-acceptance perspective.) For me, part of Shallan's reasoning rings false, i.e. "Adolin knows me", when Shallan is well aware that the her Adolin "saw" is not actually the "real" her - she is shunting things to V/R as a coping mechanism, and she's aware she is doing this (see when she joins hands with them when raising the TC fake army), so she also must be aware the Shallan Adolin "saw" is not all of her. (I do think she wants it to be all of her because she can keep pushing difficult things aside, but that is a different story.) Is it possible for this to be overcome in a relationship (i.e. you know unseemly things about yourself you haven't shared with your husband when you get married), definitely yes. But in the books, there are numerous things which make me highly doubt we are going that way, including Brandon's writing choices in the pivotal "Adolin knows me" scene (Shallan is sitting when Adolin sees her, the imagery of stuffing V/R into the back of her brain in order to make the decision), how Brandon chose to present Shadolin at the end of the book (focus on Shallan mainly thinking wedding = sex, Shallan saying she will fade without Adolin, Adolin treating Veil differently, Shallan noting she hasn't revealed things about herself to Adolin, not burning the wedding glyph, not showing the wedding itself), the Kaladin foreshadowing in general (sitting/standing in pivotal scene and on Honor's path, all the wind references, the natural history analogy, Kaladin's connection to passion which we know from WoB is closer to real Shallan) and the lack of a payoff for Kaladin's place in the arc in general (more on that below.) Anyway, long way of saying that we seem to agree on what happened in the scene, but we disagree with where it'll lead which is fine! So unlike with Shadolin, where I think you made a very strong argument for that couple's growth and arc in OB, I don't see this as bookends, but instead as redundancy. Since we were already shown Kaladin can move on with Laral, what does it show us that Kaladin can do that with another girl? That's he's still able to? This is just repetitive. Same with the "Shallan reminds me of Tien" realization; he already had that realization in the chasms, so it adds no impact for him to have it again. We get it, Shallan reminds you of Tien! We got it the first time! If I had to find a payoff, it would be that Kaladin's romantic/sexual side is awakening. Understandably when Kaladin was in life or death situations as a slave or in the bridge crews, he's focusing on surviving and not on his libido. After the bridge crews move to Dalinar's camp, we see a lot of his men going out and flirting with women, but Kaladin cannot move on to focus on that aspect of life. We are well aware (because he's the only one of our young crew who has actually had a serious relationship), that this is something Kaladin has wanted in the past, but he seems uninterested. Now because of this interaction with Shallan, he's slowly becoming aware he is still capable of having romantic/sexual feelings, which sets him up for seeking a relationship in the future. (I know there are readers who (a) don't think Kaladin should ever be in a romantic relationship and/or (b) don't think Kaladin had romantic/sexual feelings for Shallan, so if you fall into one of those camps, you won't see this as a possible payoff.) The other one I thought of is that Kaladin's pointlessness in the love triangle mirrors Kaladin's pointlessness in OB at all; he didn't contribute really anything - Hearthstone didn't need saving, he failed on his task to Kholinar, he couldn't get the crew out of Shadesmar, he couldn't even kill Amaram - so maybe this was supposed to put an exclamation point on the uselessness of Kaladin in the book. He was pointless and to hammer it home he had pointless involvement in the love triangle. (I don't agree with this, but I'm trying here!) Totally agree with you that feminism is about choice, not about fitting into a mold opposite of societal stereotypes. Two points on this... One, my point on agency and independence does not in any way mean no romance or no support from others or having to be all alone in the world. In fact, Dalinar is a good example of this. Navani is crucial to Dalinar's ability to resist Odium IMO. Navani is there for him when he is broken down in Part 4, she supports him, she picks up the pieces when he cannot, after TC she runs down and shoos away Kaladin and Lopen to be the one who is there with him. Dalinar is very much not alone in life, and he is dependent on his partner Navani in many ways. But when it comes to the crucial moment when Dalinar has to make the decision of whether or not he will give into Odium, Dalinar is making that decision alone. This mirrors what is necessary for true mental health progress. You can have everyone around you telling you that you are worthy or that you shouldn't do drugs, but in the end what matters is not what others tell you or guide you to, but that you yourself believe you are worthy and you yourself have the strength to resist drugs. Support networks are amazing and crucial, but it's still your realization/decision/belief that matters This isn't what happens to Shallan; instead of Shallan coming to her own realization "that's the one", it's Adolin's hand squeeze that points out to Shallan "that's the one." So, in shorthand, this issues is not that Shallan is in a romantic relationship or that she has support from a romantic partner, it's that she didn't make the crucial realization herself, but instead had someone do it for her. Second, I see your point about women of color vs. white women. There is definitely a stereotype (both in popular culture and in real life), that black women have to be strong while alone while white women are more likely to be part of a supportive relationship. (There is a lot of literature about this surrounding single parenting.) So, if a white female author wrote a book with three protagonists, two white women and one black woman, and the white women have relationships which help them deal with the struggles put forth in the book whereas the black woman is strong and alone, then agreed this is offensive. Here, we have a stereotype (both in popular culture and in real life) that men are independent and can sort through life's problem's on their own whereas women are dependent (from a financial and emotional perspective) and need assistance to deal with life's problems. In fact, women's independence is often vilified, i.e. the bachelor v. spinster dichotomy. (There has also been a lot of literature about this especially surrounding the perceived "threat" of single women.) Here, we have a male author with three protagonists, two men and one woman, and we have the two men able to come to their moments of realization alone (regardless of the support network they have before or after as I discussed above) whereas the woman needs a man to point out her realization for her. So we have a male writer choosing to have his protagonists play directly into societal stereotypes, which is why I find it offensive, just like the example above, like you point out, is also offensive. Just as an aside, I see Shallan's biggest moment to be when she almost crumples when creating the army in TC and she Lightweaves her mother, and then she accepts the support of Veil and Radiant but forcibly realizes she doesn't need any other masks. At this point, she is able to also soulcast a bit into her creations (per what Jasnah sees, obviously we don't know this 100% for sure) and also create the most advanced Lightweaving we've seen so far. She needed others to get there (notably Wit, but also I'm sure Adolin's support on Honor's Path helped too), but she had to come to the realization she didn't any more "Shallan''s herself for it to be a powerful moment. I also see a lot of beauty in her accepting Veil and Radiant's help, because in essence this is her seeing that she needs herself, all of herself, to face these trials. (There is some of this in the Re-Shephir fight, though Shallan gets scared of letting her secrets be known, so she backs off.) But this isn't distinguished from our men - both Kaladin and Dalinar have mental health issues - so again it's our woman protagonist who is falling back on stereotypes of being dependent (in the moment of decision) which aren't applied to our male protagonists. Also, as I mentioned above, asking for help and having a support network is different than dependence. Asking for help is also different than thinking you need to get married to receive that help. (Man, this would have been so much better if Brandon wasn't so anti-premarital sex. Then Shallan could have gotten the sex she so desires while getting help from Adolin on her masks, without having to get married before working through some of her issues!)

So we’re actually on the same page here, but I just see you as selecting option 1... if parts of Shallan are pushed onto Veil and Radiant (even if Veil and Radiant need additional elements such that Shallan can consider them seperate from her - I get your point on the backstories), that means those parts of Shallan which are pushed onto V/R aren’t present in Shallan. And so the “Shallan” Adolin sees (I can use your language :)) isn’t actually the whole Shallan; it’s whole Shallan minus those aspects she’s pushed aside. Thus when Shallan justifies her choice as “Adolin knows me”, she’s really saying “Adolin knows me minus these things I’ve pushed to V/R”, hence why it rings false to me. This whole thing was awesome to read, and I totally get where you’re coming from. (An aside, I actually thought Part 1 was really strong for them at the time! I was convinced during the sample chapters that they were really going to work it out as I saw their “issues” as things which were easy to address and getting better, ie Shallan not caring about Adolin seeing her hungover as a big step towards letting him see her not putting on an act.) I wish we’d had a stronger ending for them, in the sense of how they choose each other. I was pretty much on board all the way through Part 4 (despite not being sure why we had to go through this whole love triangle - I don’t think we got enough payoff for that if this is the end), but the whole thing felt underwhelming and disappointing because of the way it ended. As I stated (ranted about ) above, it would have been so much better to have Shallan independently “see” herself for herself and realize that self wanted to be with Adolin and not have it be Adolin “seeing” Shallan and then having her suddenly realize she is that person he sees. I obviously have other issues (Kaladin foreshadowing being dropped, the whole point of the triangle for Kaladin’s character development at all, the weirdness at the end surrounding the Shadolin relationship), but this was the big one for me. It just seemed like such a brick being dropped on what, as you said, was a romantic story which I do think got some good development. (About 50 pages back in the thread I actually did a bit like what you did with how Shadolin developed, but got sad at the fact I could envision a strong ending for them which didn’t exist in the book. That wouldn’t remove the other issues involving Kaladin and the arc, but it’s too bad we didn’t get a stronger conclusion. I mean, in the end I decided it wasn’t a conclusion which was why it felt so off, but that’s where my head was at the time - trying to come to terms with taking what we got at face value. And before you say Brandon is cool with me editing as I wish, believe me, if we come to SA4 with a happy marriage between them, I’m going to retcon the OB ending for sure!)

I want a power-up. Both our main male characters have received a visible, awe-inspiring power-ups when they accepted painful aspects of themselves/their pasts. I will be severely disappointed if our main female character is denied this. (This is not an argument for or against whether or not it happened, but my personal opinion of why from a gender equality perspective that would upset me.) I see this as one of two options: "Shallan", Veil and Radiant are three parts of whole Shallan (not equal parts, but they are all necessary to make whole Shallan.) When Shallan is switching between them, there is no "real" Shallan for Adolin to recognize, thus he is choosing one of the three, which would by definition leave out parts of that whole. In this paradigm, there is a need for reintegration in order for these three parts to become whole Shallan. Shallan (what is called Shallan in the text) is the whole Shallan, and she created Veil and Radiant as fabrications to help her cope. When Shallan is switching between them, she's alternating her "real" self with these two fabrications, and there is a real Shallan for Adolin to choose. In this paradigm, there is no need for reintegration, because there is nothing to reintegrate; Shallan has always been whole Shallan, she just has these two characters she sometimes plays. So I don't think you can have it both ways. If you see #2 (which I know you do - you see Adolin as recognizing the real Shallan), there is no need to reintegrate, as Veil and Radiant were nothing but characters Shallan was sometimes playing. (Now, Shallan could choose to try and incorporate some of the characteristics of those roles into her behavior, but it wouldn't be reintegration. It would be like (random example) me seeing my friend speaking up in meetings and thinking, I should speak up in meetings too, even if that goes against my nature.) Not related to the above (and you've probably stated this before), but what do you see as the theme of their relationship in OB? Edited to add some extra thoughts on my feminist disapproval: I have an issue with Adolin either choosing "Shallan" or recognizing the real Shallan, though the former is obviously quite disturbing, while the latter is just underwhelming and upsetting (to me) from a feminist perspective. First, taking the independence and agency out of a character's big moment of realization lessens the impact of that realization. Imagine if Navani was standing by Dalinar when he confronted Odium and she was saying to Dalinar "don't let him take your pain!" during the exchange. That would lessen the impact of the moment dramatically by taking out of Dalinar's hands the realization that he would not let Odium have his pain. This is what happened here; Shallan's realization (taking it as thus) would not have happened if not for Adolin standing there and guiding her to it. It's fine to get help along the way, but to have sometime guiding your hand at the moment of realization takes that moment away from the character. Second, it is made worse that it is a man guiding a woman. I would still not like it if one of Shallan's female friends was recognizing the real her, but it adds a whole patriarchal overtone to have a man, let alone your significant other, be the one who is recognizing something fundamental for you. Third, our two male characters get to struggle for their moments of realization alone. Dalinar in front of Thaylen City as previously mentioned, and Kaladin fighting the rain in the training grounds and later in the King's palace. It's flat out offensive (to me) that our main female character needs to be guided to her realization by a man when our men were capable of doing it on their own. This is obviously a big opinion piece, but this is why I find the idea this was a true, real "realization" moment for Shallan offensive and it would be a large step backward for Brandon in his portrayal of women in his stories. (Doesn't change whether or not it happened of course. I also want to add it wouldn't matter for me if it was Kaladin guiding her to this realization; same feelings no matter who it is.)

@SLNC I want to say I personally agree with every point you say here, but I'm always worried my own bias (in who I want Shallan to be and also in what all this could mean for Shallan and her character arc, including our favorite romantic debate, going forward) is effecting how I'm interpreting things. Especially your last point, about how Adolin chose who Shallan should be, is something which made me not be able to start my SA reread when we first discussed this. It literally made me ill to think this was being put up as a healthy thing; having a man choose who a woman should be (even if that wasn't the man's intent.) I could rage against the goddamn patriarchy here, and I will restrain myself, but safe to say this brings up very strong emotions. So I know I have that bias, and I know I want to interpret everything through that lens (I want to be able to like Brandon as an author!), so I try really hard to find counter-arguments to the points which support my bias. Anyway, this was a personal ramble, but a couple actual points. I think this is the strongest "positive" IMO out of Brandon's post, that is does seem like "Shallan" is just another mask, as this seems to describe her perfectly: "Shallan is coping with her pain in (best I've been able to do) a very realistic way, by boxing off and retreating and putting on a mask of humor and false "everything is okay" attitudes." She hasn't faced her pain, she is still laughing things off and mostly telling us (the reader) and herself over and over again how she's happy! It's ok to be happy! It's good to celebrate! Given the painful struggles we've seen Kaladin and Dalinar go through to accept their pain, I can't imagine we're supposed to think Shallan has taken that step. While I think the text supports that she needs Veil and Radiant to be a whole person (or at least a person who is capable of progressing as a Radiant), the way Brandon phrased the creation of Veil is concerning to me. He made it seem like Shallan dreamed up a character and brought it to life. An actor can play a character who is nothing like them, so I worry that is what Shallan is supposed to be seen as doing - playing these characters "Veil" and "Radiant" in order to help her hide, when in fact Veil and Radiant aren't her as all and are just complete fabrications. Note this contradicts what Wit tells her (they are all you, to paraphrase) but aligns with what we see Shallan do in the end (forcibly say, you both are fantasies and not me, even if I play your role occasionally.) This is the part of Brandon's post which worries me the most, as I think the natural conclusion to this is not that Adolin chose the Shallan she should be, but that he recognized the "real" Shallan who was getting taken over by these fantasy creations. I think this is what Shadolin supporters have said previously - there doesn't need to be a reintegration because Veil and Radiant aren't actually parts of Shallan at all.

@MonsterMetroid This is a brilliant find! The most WoB we've had on this subject since OB came out... A couple preliminary thoughts: There's no real-world analog he's using to create what is going on with Shallan, so we (unfortunately) can't rely on any real-world diagnosis and treatment to guess his actual resolution. I can't tell if what we call "Shallan" (in the various names we use) is "real" Shallan by this... some of it "boxing off and retreating and putting on a mask of humor and false 'everything is okay' attitudes" and "she's specifically playing this role because it lets her ignore the things she doesn't want to face" make me think no (i.e. "Shallan" is not real Shallan) because the "mask of humor and everything is cool" is a hallmark of "Shallan" and "Shallan" is ignoring/repressing so much. But when he says "I make it very clear (with deliberate slip-ups of self-reference in the prose) that it's always Shallan in there" that makes me doubt it. So I'm still confused in this regard. Some of this makes me think the personas are not integral parts of her, such as this line "She literally sketched out Veil and thought, 'Yup, I'm going to become that person now.'", which makes it seem like Veil is just a fantasy, like a role she's playing as an actor, instead of Veil's traits actually being part of herself. I don't get this from the books at all (since she is shown as needing Veil (and Radiant) in order to be fully functioning, e.g. the Thaylen City battle scene), so this confuses me. This seems to be the crux of it: "she can't decide who she wants to be, who she should be, and what the world wants her to be" which makes me think the resolution will be tied less to figuring out what to do with these "masks" but more with Shallan figuring out who she wants to be. Right now she wants to be a princess and lead a comfortable life with Adolin, so that really could be the conclusion if seen through this light. But again, I can't decide if "Shallan" is a mask too or if not (based on this), but really the masks may be less important than Shallan figuring out who she is. Such a goldmine, haha! I realized (by clicking on your link!) you could search reddit for Brandon posts and found this about the timeskip. No clue if this pertains to anything on this subject, but it looks like we will "miss" things which will be seen in flashbacks to fill us in later in the book. Interesting...