Dreamstorm

You made a literary argument about how the text was pointing out something the author wanted readers to particularly pay attention to. ("It's interesting to note that both times the text explicitly notes the ten heartbeats. This implies he was paying attention, and also that the readers are supposed to be paying attention.") That kind of argument can apply to any plotline, whether it is related to relationships or magic systems. Literary devices are literary devices. Don't make an argument based on literary devices and then say that can only be used to support the plotlines which you think are important and/or valid.

You are totally right! I feel a little silly now, thanks for reminding me. Looking too hard for other possible spiritual realm connections, haha.

I totally agree with this from a literary analysis perspective. I've been challenged strenuously on this board, though, that we cannot take these Brandon "hints" as necessarily meaning anything. (I'm a Shalladin supporter, and there are a ton of hints about them which a lot of readers either say exist but only as a "fake out" or subversion tactic, or alternatively say are being read into too much and are not meant to mean anything.) I agree that these points needs to be looked at in any literary analysis, though, especially for a writer such a Brandon who loves his foreshadowing! Contrary to what I say above, Brandon did just confirm that in the case of Evi's necklace nothing is being foreshadowed, so not everything means something. (The WoB was quoted earlier in this thread and can be found here.)

Agreed these could be explanations which are plausible and would make what Adolin is doing special. (I actually believe they do mean something myself.) I'm just saying there are also ways to explain what happened where it doesn't mean much of anything. On the blade timing, he draws Maya three times in TC. The first time he's not panicked at all, the second time it's mildly urgent, and the third he's desperate. It's the third where he's really focusing on the heartbeat timing. Brandon said in that WoB that a wielder wouldn't usually notice the difference because they expect it to be 10 heartbeats, so we know slight differences in time have been happening before but just not noticed, so that could account for Adolin thinking it was ten heartbeats the first two times. I also find it interesting that Brandon just told us (that WoB is from last weekend) that proximity can make a difference in the timing of blade summoning, when he showed a timing discrepancy in the latest book. Maybe that's nothing, maybe he's trying to misdirect, maybe he's trying to point people to an alternate explanation besides blade revival. I'm pretty sure we'll find out in the next book though! (Though if we take the Sadeas storyline as any indicator, what is happening could have an effect in general but nothing much could happen with respect to Adolin himself.)

Thanks for all the interesting perspectives! A couple of responses/questions. This is how I see it too. Well, I think. It also hurts my brain a bit. Basically everything past, present and future just is. Like you say in another part, it's not preordained, but it still exists. I admit I go a little crazy at the nature of it (if the future is, then how do you have freedom of choice for instance?), but I agree with the fundamental principle. Quoting you both for this, but I think there's something very interesting about the fact both Syl and Pattern are pushing their Radiants towards things they think they "need". (They do this with varying degrees of tact and success of course.) Could this be a spiritual realm Connection in knowing what is required (since it's all one in the SR) in order to progress? Considering we have been told there is such a Connection with regards to Syl and Shallan, and we see Syl pushing Kaladin so hard at Shallan, I don't think we can rule it out. It's interesting to consider. For instance, how does Pattern know Shallan killed her mother? How does he even know that's a truth she needs to say when she's not even cognizant she did that in the first place? So jealous you were there! Did you ask a question? Regarding this point, did you see this differently than @Alderant explained above? I'm not sure if the left to right indicates some temporal dimension in the spiritual realm based on your conception. Could it be connected as well? We have the presence of water in both cases. Maybe water is to Honor/Cultivation, what mist was to Preservation? This is really interesting, especially if Yalb is alive... (Or else it could be Shallan's wishful thinking.) Shallan does do a lot of "unconscious" drawing IIRC. I'm trying to think of anything else which could be seen as a potential "seeing" of current events or echoes of a potential connection... Obviously she draws Kaladin at the Urithiru meeting, lol, but that seems to be a lustful thing, not spiritual realm connection. In my thinking, it was like someone mentioned destiny, and he thought of situations which could be considered destiny in his mind (Syl bonding Kaladin, Kaladin and Shallan connection) and was explaining why they may come across this way, but that it isn't actually destiny. So I agree, it was the questioner saying that word which seemed to spur the tangent.

I'm of the opinion that Adolin is doing something "special" with Maya, but this conviction comes from a narrative perspective. I think Adolin is in for a rough next book - including the end of his marriage (of which he may be the primary cause) and repercussions from the Sadeas killing in the form of Dalinar's reaction and also Adolin's internal issues with his own reaction (I find the interaction between the WoBs which say some people would find the killing very, very wrong and the fact Adolin's mother gave him his early sense of morality to be interesting - there is no way Evi would be OK with how Adolin killed Sadeas.) I'm not trying to debate the above points, just explaining my reasoning why I feel like Adolin will need something and a special relationship with Maya gives him that something. I'm not sure it'll be a Nahel bond (as I also don't think Adolin is important enough a character to do something which is characterized as being unprecedented and nearly impossible - it would just take too much page time to satisfactorily develop that), but I can see something significant. One idea I have is that dead shardblades have properties which were formerly unknown, and Adolin's experiences with Maya provide a way to investigate that. I could even imagine that Renarin (being interested in such things) and Adolin could investigate this together. Contrary to my conclusion based on the literary aspects of the storyline, I do find that there are easy ways to explain what happened with Maya that fit into what we know about deadeyes/dead shardblades and the situations at hand, and thus conclude nothing is going on at all. Maya attacking Fused in Shadesmar: We know (from Ico and Maya's actions in Shadesmar prior to her attack) that all deadeyes are capable of enough sentience to follow around their holder. So, we know deadeyes are capable of movement and deciding where to move. Attacking the Fused was just Maya deciding where to move and moving. This is no different conceptually then the fact Maya followed Adolin around Shadesmar, just an extension of that principle. It may definitely show a liking for Adolin, but it is not a different principle than action of which we know all deadeyes are capable. Also, given no dead shardblade wielder (that we know of) has traveled to Shadesmare, for all we know, this reaction could be typical of a deadeye when their wielder is in mortal danger. Maya telling Adolin her name/brushing Adolin's mind with her "thoughts": As other have mentioned, the perpendicularity affected a number of characters. Specifically we have Taln gaining lucidity for a brief moment and Jasnah noting to Ivory that she has enhanced soulcasting ability due to the closeness of all three realms. As others have mentioned, deadeyes are capable of sound (whether they scream when only Radiants touch them or not, everyone can agree they do produce sound), so sound production plus compression of realms seems like a likely situation for speaking a name. Maya, like Taln, regained some of her Identity. Maya summoned as a shardblade in 7 seconds: This one is addressed in this recent WoB. (I copied the text below.) Maya is physically closer to Adolin either because she is closer in Shademar or because the cognitive realm is closer due to the perpendicularity (either works, especially since Brandon explicitly mentions this difference in summoning timing may be happening a lot, but not noticed by the wielder.) Again, I think we will see something come of this, but I also think it would be easy to conclude nothing significant will come of it, especially if one has a different take on Adolin's potential arc and narrative purpose going forward. (For instance, one could conclude Adolin will think something special is happening, and then be crushed when nothing comes of it.) There certainly seems to be no reason to conclude with certainty an "awakening" or "revival" is happening, given how easy it is to provide alternate explanations for the instances which lead to that conclusion.

Warning: This post discusses romantic relationships, so do not proceed if that it not your thing At Brandon's signing last weekend, we got an interesting WoB where a fan asked about Kaladin's proficiency with the spear... and Brandon ended up taking the conversation around to a Connection (appears to be Cosmere capitalized Connection) between Syl and Shallan. I am specifically interested in the latter point. The link for the WoB is here and text below, with the part about Syl and Shallan in bold. I'll discuss my thoughts after the text. The scene Brandon is mentioning is in WoR, text copied below, and I personally had no idea this was supposed to be Shallan. At the very least, this is a specific reveal that Syl "knew" Shallan, in a similar way to the fact she "knew" Kaladin prior to actually meeting her. (With hopefully a different outcome though! Don't know how I'd feel about Syl bonding Shallan... ) The context for this is that Kaladin is training his men in the chasms, and Syl is discussing the danger she faced in coming to find Kaladin. On the face of it, she is encouraging Kaladin that he is not alone, that other spren are struggling against the prohibition for bonding humans, and there will be other Radiants. Syl of course doesn't actually know Shallan, when Shallan finally shows up at the Shattered Plains, Syl doesn't recognize her, know she is a Radiant, or even sense Pattern except maybe vaguely at the 4v1 duel (there's a number of spren she could have sensed then though.) But something about the Connection between Shallan and Syl in the Spiritual Realm allows Syl to "see" Shallan in that moment. Brandon analogizes that moment to Kaladin's affinity for his spear and Syl and Kaladin's own bond. In other words... "fun Cosmere connections" language aside, it seems pretty significant. One of the things we see in OB is that Syl really likes Shallan. She encourages Kaladin multiples times to pursue Shallan, pushing against his own wishes; I would argue Kaladin would not have made even the (small) overtures he did towards Shallan if it wasn't for Syl's insistence. Syl and Shallan hang out in Shadesmar without Kaladin, including the fact Syl wants to remain with Shallan in Celebrant. (This is of course partially due to Shallan's lightweaving skills, but Syl at that point already had a lightwoven disguise.) Syl is also skeptical of Shallan's choice of Adolin at the end of OB, encouraging Kaladin to continue his pursuit, and indicating she can't see Shallan's "choice is made". All in all, we know Syl has a Connection to Shallan through the Spiritual Realm (where everything is one), and that these types of connections are "echoes" of events that are forming, not something as strong as "destiny", but still a definite "something is there." And since Syl is constantly pushing Kaladin towards Shallan, I think there's a great inference to made that Syl is "knowing" something about Shallan which is not yet explicit in real time in the Physical Realm. While not for certain (as nothing is until confirmed as such), the fact Brandon spontaneously brought this up in a question that had literally nothing to do with romance or Shallan at all, seems to be him pointing towards yet another piece of foreshadowing for Shalladin, one which was not apparent from the text, but he obviously seeded a long time ago.

I think we can all agree Adolin is perfect and amazing

It could be that the incidence of homosexuality is lower on Roshar than it is on Earth? That’s the only explanation I can think of for acceptance plus low number of same-sex relationships. As a couple people have mentioned though, there’s definitely a dichotomy between the strict enforcement of gender roles and the acceptance of same sex relationships.

I don't disagree with your conclusion. The most straight-forward (and I'm sure consensus) read is that Adolin is straight; he dates women and marries a woman in the text after all! I'm just rather attached to the alternative You have a good point; why would Adolin not be out if he was in fact gay? My counterpoint is that even though we know homosexuality is accepted in Alethkar, it doesn't seem to be that prominent; of all of the men we've seen on the page, we only have two (Drehy and Dru) who we know are gay. I don't think Adolin is consciously repressing his romantic feelings towards men, but instead that he doesn't know how to process them in the first place. Adolin is also in the situation where he's been told (both explicitly and implicitly) that he needs to marry a woman, as that is the "normal" structure of Alethi relationships (male/female pairs with duties split along gender lines) and he also has the added pressure that he should produce an heir. I think we could have a plausible situation where Adolin primarily (maybe exclusively) sees male/female pairings and since he has been told he needs to marry a woman for lineage purposes, he sees that as the only possible option. This is where I could see his friendship with Drehy coming into play, as a way to give Adolin awareness that these rather intense feelings he has for Kaladin are actually more than just friendship. But, I may be just a teeny tiny bit biased on the matter

I see your point about how Alethi society is built around heterosexual partnerships, especially for lighteyes. And there is definitely mention in WoK (I think) about how Dalinar did not have a wife to burn him prayers or act as his scribe (he notes he misses Jasnah), plus I believe this is hinted at as being part of the reason Adolin needs to get married. That being said, we do have an excellent example in Amaram of a lighteyes who was never married to a woman, and yet that did not impede his station or reputation. (Jasnah could also be an example of this on the side of an unmarried woman, though she is a more "unique" situation than Amaram - a princess - and there is also judgment regarding her unmarried status.) So, I think if (big if) the Alethi see a man in a gay relationship as the same as an unmarried man, the idea of a gay relationship could be received without little fanfare. Where I think this really gets tricky is when you consider heirs, as Adolin is highprince. However, his character arc already sees him moving away from what his father would consider one's "duty", so perhaps not producing heirs can be part of that. Personally, I would find the idea that being the only objection Alethi society would have to Adolin dating/marrying a man (a shrug besides the heir issue) to be interesting in and of itself. This is a fantastic take on Adolin's reactions in WoK, which I think carries through to the loss of his highborn friendships in WoR. It actually follows rather naturally that he has these false friendships where he has had to "play" a part in order to fit in (and note, his social activities with these friends were partially centered around taking girls on dates, so his courting can be seen as part of that role of fitting in), and once these relationships keeping him on the (literal) straight and narrow start to fall away - his closest friend now is a darkeyes after all, Radiant or not - he can slowly start peeling back the layers to his true self. His abdicating his duty as king (something I've been very ambivalent about as a positive thing in general) could be seen as part of that general move towards being more "himself" and less who he thinks he should be. Yep, I got it, I just skipped over joining that to Drehy as the gay character we've seen in SA I really like your take on these things. I tend to get uncomfortable, and it makes me switch off my brain a little bit. I have a very kneejerk reaction to these sort of discussions IRL too, which isn't always... the most productive way to get a point across. Ahhhh, so bad for me! Need to temper my feelings that this is viable...

@Greywatch I love it! I think we see Kaladin's changed viewpoint of Adolin very early on in OB. Contrast what comes off as disparagement of Adolin's fashion in WoR when Kaladin sees Adolin looking at the fashion folio ("You're spending the highstorm looking for new clothing?") with Kaladin's first mention of Adolin in OB ("Roshone wore a lighteyes' coat that was several seasons out of fashion - Adolin would have shaken his head at that.") I also like that while Syl (possibly on her Shallphrena agenda, ha @Vissy) has to prompt Kaladin to think about Shallan (and in fact Kal turns this conversation around to being about Adolin), Kaladin spontaneously thinks about Adolin on his own. Hmmmm One of my swooniest moment in OB (I obviously like many of these) is when Adolin shows the group his hand-sewn outfit before they arrive in Celebrant. It just reads (in my totally neutral opinion ) like Adolin was trying to show off for Kaladin, and that "broad chest" observation could belong in any romance novel I hesitantly agree, but I was a little mixed on Drehy in OB, actually. Well, not actually Drehy himself. I thought the character was well done and not a caricature of a gay man, which is my biggest worry (and Brandon's too, by what he's said), and I loved Lopen's little moment with Drehy's boyfriend after Thaylen City. That moment added a lot of depth to the Drehy/Dru (Druhy?) relationship while at the same time reminding us readers that Drehy was still missing out there. (Brandon does moments like these exceptionally well.) I'm just not sure how I feel about the mentions of Drehy's sexuality in the Bridge Four viewpoints in part 2. I get that Sigzil's part was meant to show contrasting attitudes to homosexuality on Roshar, and the dialogue in Rlain's part was part of fleshing out Kaladin's character by showing how insensitive he can be at times (like with the Lyn-as-only-a-scribe scene), but I guess altogether it felt a bit heavy-handed and forced to me. It doesn't help that even a mention of the "gay equals feminine" (or the equally upsetting "lesbian equals masculine") stereotype gets my hackles up in a major way. If you're inclined, I'd be curious to get your perspective on the handling of Drehy though! (I have definitely appreciated your perspectives on this thread!) This aligns with my feelings of how I view some of the handling of Drehy. That being said, if Adolin does turn out to be gay, I will be beyond impressed with Brandon's handling of it. I would consider the development to this point of Adolin (if he is indeed a gay man) to be one of the best I've read, which is especially impressive in light of the fact we know this is outside of Brandon's comfort zone. I do think the hardest part to write would be the actual coming out and thus yet to come (more how it's accepted by our other characters, though the heavy-handed emphasis in the Drehy arc that homosexuality is not a big deal in Alethkar does leave us in a situation where the other characters could essentially ignore it and have that fit into our world-building so far, hmmm.) It makes me wonder again about the story of real-life Drehy especially if he is/was LDS, and how real Drehy's perspective could help Brandon keep the development believable. (I always end up convincing myself this could actually happen )

You guys are really bad for me... Hope is a dangerous, dangerous thing. If we accept canon Kaladin is straight, my AU is Drehy and Adolin go to Rira to return his Plate, where they meet along the way a country boy who offers to be their guide through the land, but turns out to be an Iriali prince (because we haven’t done the fake nobility romantic trope yet!) who disagrees with his mother’s siding with Odium and wants to join the Urithiru coalition. Adolin and faux pauper bond over a dislike of their royal parent’s dictates for how they should comport themselves, and Drehy helps Adolin realize this strong connection is not just just friendship... I love Padolin! (Also a gay romance ) My favorite spren/human ship is definitely Shallphrena though. Syl has such a girl crush on Shallan.

Thanks for all the positive feedback! @WhiteLeeopard and @Carla Bridge Four, those were both great moments, and good additions to the ship! My own personal favorite little scene between the two (well, personal favorite at the moment) is when Adolin gives Kaladin the Bridge Four salute before they split up again in the Kholinar Palace battle. Such an adorable moment between the two with so much symbolism for how their relationship has grown and development. (And I don't like to think about it in context with any of the Moash salute symbolism, because opposite feelings there...) I wonder this too! Brandon's said before in response to a question that he unintentionally made Shallan bi, but for me, the indicators of Shallan being attracted to Jasnah are much more subtle (and easier to have included unintentionally) than those of Adolin being attracted to Kaladin. Given the feedback on how people read Shallan as bisexual, it is interesting that he created such a strong arguably romantic interest by Adolin in Kaladin. (I agree with your husband that I realistically read Kaladin as straight.) This is great. The fashion thing is something which has always bothered me (if Adolin somehow turns out to actually be gay), but this perspective really helps alleviate that concern. (And now you took away my one reason I didn't want Kadolin to happen in canon ) Much my same thought process. When I first started googling around to see if I was the only one who saw Adolin as gay, I came across a Brandon tweet where he said Drehy is gay and thought, aha, that will be Adolin's path for discovering himself! (Not that Adolin would date Drehy, but that a friendship which arose with Drehy after the Battle of Narak would provide Adolin a new perspective on his own sexuality.) But then I came across WoB about no gay main viewpoint characters, which seems to exclude Adolin We did get the Drehy friendship though, so some hope...?

I totally understand that you have a different perspective, and I think that is the prevailing perspective here. Like I said, on these other forums I frequent, there are a few "mod accounts" that only moderate. The people "behind" the mod accounts have their own personal accounts (I don't know if they all do, but I believe many do) where they can participate in the forums (so they get the benefit of their hard work too), but the mod accounts only moderate. I don't even know how many mods (persons behind the mod accounts) there are! This definitely isn't the way this forum was set up, and I can also see the benefit in knowing your admin staff and building a rapport with them, and how that can actually facilitate conflict mediation. If I got my way (life is hard in the fact it doesn't always happen that way though ), I would choose the impersonal "mod account" style, so I wanted to give my perspective to the questions posed. I'm not expecting everyone (or even a majority) to agree with me or for this to be what happens though! I didn't address this in my post last night, but I wanted to clarify that I definitely didn't mean it that way. You are absolutely correct every person has bias (both conscious and unconscious), and it is impossible to be a completely neutral adjudicator in any dispute. All you can do is acknowledge your bias and correct for it, if needed. In my OP, I felt like there was a definite bias (in a couple areas - anti-romance/characters and more specifically ASK) which came out in the moderation. So my issue was not that moderators had a bias, it's that it seemed to influence their actions. After talking through a number of situations, it seems like that perception was not reality in many cases (and I know some specific instances have been discussed privately; my comment was more general.) I think having clear guidelines, as is discussed above, will go a long way to making users like me feel comfortable that bias isn't affecting moderation actions. (And this discussion has been helpful as well.) Alright, fashion post up, and I will do the other one either later today or tomorrow as I want to put more thought into it. So I await continuing our discussion when you have the time to do so!

@maxal and I started having a discussion on Adolin's fashion sense and what it could mean prior to the ASK thread closure, so I wanted to bring it into it's own thread in case anyone else wanted to join the discussion. Below is the most pertinent history on the topic: I don't like Adolin playing "dressing up" and I still think those scenes exist mostly because Brandon thought they were comical and he wanted to add some humor to otherwise grim part of the narrative, but I recently read someone (not myself) argue Adolin focusing so much on fashion, when everything else is going wrong, is mostly him holding on to familiar things. He goes in line with his second viewpoint chapter where the smell of the stables was something familiar he could hung up onto despite being very distressed over Sureblood. Wearing nice clothes, sewing himself clothes, these may have just been comical scenes written to relief the tension, but these may have also been subtle ways Adolin's character has used to regain a semblance of normality in a world he does not recognize. The party with the fancy suit, I think it was more Adolin remembering his teenage years, then anything else. When Adolin mentions of how someone's clothes speaks of its personality, Shallan asks him what happened to his fancy suit. Adolin responds he didn't fit him anymore... I always thought this was an odd response, but with the above explanation, it makes more sense. Adolin no longer is the fop he once was: he tried once last time and it wasn't him anymore. I think this other person may have put the finger onto something. I can understand the normalcy point, though I don't know if I agree with it (normal would have been a uniform for Adolin, as that is what he's been wearing for the past six years. Fancy clothes would be a novelty at this point.) Even if we take the normalcy point, that is along the same lines as Adolin's focus was elsewhere besides on the task at hand, on making himself comfortable, on feeling normal. A perfectly natural feeling, but also different than the other three who were pushing their personal boundaries in order to accomplish the task (Kal being a lighteyes, Shallan risking her life to feed beggars (a misguided attempt, but that was her intent), Elhokar actually being a leader (lol at that last one)). I like your point about that quote on "fit" a lot more. It's something I had forgotten about. I'll quote it below for reference: Putting aside the fact this is a really stupid question by Shallan (they had been oathgate-napped from a battle. Why would Adolin wear a party suit to a battle? That's like me being kidnapped from the gym and someone asking why I was in gym clothes instead of a party dress), as I actually think the fact the question was so moronic means it was definitely inserted so that Adolin could say his line using an alternate meaning of "fit." He's obviously not talking about physical fit (he didn't change size in the past day), but instead figurative fit. This aligns with Adolin's reflection on "feeling taller" when he puts back on the uniform prior to the battle. This shows great personal growth for Adolin IMO. The way I read it is that Adolin was able to indulge himself, for the first time in years, in the frivolous vanity of fancy clothes. He did so (much like a college student gorges themselves on bad food when they move out of their parent's house), and he realized he actually felt better, stronger in the uniform, and that frivolity didn't fit him anymore. Good, subtle character growth, so excellent point! Now, what is really interesting is that later on in Shadesmar (Ch. 101, Deadeye), there is an Adolin chapter which starts with Adolin sewing and having much thought over his Celebrant disguise clothes (and later critiquing everyone else's.) This is also the chapter where Adolin has conversations with both Ico and Azure about his concern with being king now that Elhokar is dead. I don't think this is a coincidence considering the above. Adolin had previously decided he didn't need fashion, as the utilitarian uniform suited him and made him feel better, yet the next time we see him fussing over fashion, he has a conversation (with Azure) that becomes one of the turning points in his decision to refuse to be king. So he's coming back to the frivolity of fashion at the same time he starts going down the path of abdicating his duty (or what his family would see as his duty), essentially turning away from the uniform and what it represents. I think this ties into the last part of the first book quote above - about not being worthy to wear the uniform due to his killing Sadeas. That is a huge factor in why he abdicates being king, and in fact his justification to his father, so it's as though Adolin is deciding he doesn't deserve to wear the uniform anymore, so in fact the frivolous clothes actually fit him better in the end due to his perceived lack of worthiness.

Below is my case for why Kadolin (Kaladin and Adolin in case that wasn't clear) is the greatest ship of all time! (Disclaimer: I know this won't happen in the books, but I still absolutely love them together.) As an intro, I love gay romance, I read probably too many of them (bless you Kindle Unlimited), and when I finished WoR, the whole reason I found this forum in the first place was to see if anyone else had picked up on the obvious romantic vibe between Kaladin and Adolin. I mean, I may have had a bit of confirmation bias, but I think there is a lot of book evidence to support them. So, onward! Kaladin and Adolin: Would They Be in a Romantic Relationship? Although gay relationships are perceived with various levels of comfort on Roshar in general, in Vorinism such relationships are perceived as the same as heterosexual relationships, though subject to the same prohibitions about premarital sexual relations. Kaladin displays no issue with Drehy’s relationship with a man, and in general neither does anyone else in Bridge Four (although Sigzil has a level of discomfort for not having the proper paperwork.) Kaladin is described of a man of passion by many people. While we have only seen him on page have romantic feelings for a woman, he could very likely translate his passion into romantic feelings for a man. In fact, Adolin is one of the people (see below for relationship timeline) that Kaladin has felt the most passion about; half of WoR is about the strong feelings they have vis-à-vis one another. We have seen another passionate dislike (Shallan) where Kaladin’s strong negative feelings turn into romantic interest, so it is likely the same could happen with Adolin. While Adolin is often seen as an admirer of women’s physical beauty, he doesn’t seem eager to have a physically intimate relationship, and in fact we can take his “missteps” in these relationships as a way of avoiding physical intimacy; if he doesn’t let a relationship progress past the introductory stage, he won’t have to be physically intimate. His one relationship which progresses to a stage with any physical intimacy (Shallan) is a relationship where his partner is determined to make it work, even ignoring his glances at other women (a tactic Adolin has used in the past to escape early from relationships with women.) When Shallan initiates physical contact with Adolin, he is hesitant to respond to it, although eventually he does reciprocate, likely because he knows this is what is expected as him. I suspect while Adolin is not incapable of romantic feelings for a woman, he strongly would lean towards a relationship with a man. We can also take Adolin’s extreme love of fashion as a hint towards his sexual preference; though we do not want to reduce gay men to stereotypes, a love of and focus on fashion is something which in popular culture (and real life, though this obviously varies) is associated with gay men. Kadolin: The Relationship's Progression and the Literary Tropes Involved Kaladin and Adolin meet in a typical dramatic scenario, as you often see in fictional romances. Adolin and his father are surrounded by enemy soldiers and likely to die. Kaladin comes in to save the day, and in the process, aggressively tells Adolin (the battlefield commander at the time) what to do. We now have a setup where Adolin resents Kaladin’s asserting authority in such a manner (especially given Kaladin’s station, as we discuss below) but at the same time knowing that Kaladin saved his life, which sets up interpersonal tension in Adolin as well as external tension between the characters. The perfect setup to have them obsess over each other! We spend most of WoR with Adolin and Kaladin progressing through your typical “enemies to lovers” romance setup. They are involved in many cute antagonistic scenes in which they challenge each other but at the same time show a growing respect between the two. (Notable scenes include the horse riding scene which leaves Adolin in awe of Kaladin, and the dueling ground scene where Kaladin observes that Adolin is a master at the sword even though they get in a fight later.) We also get to see some physical interaction between the two (fighting). At the same time, we start to see how Kaladin and Adolin work extremely well together in difficult situations, including the attack by Szeth and most notably, the 4v1 duel. The latter is of course a huge turning point for Kadolin, as after that point we see Kaladin accepting that Adolin is pretty good for a lighteyes, and Adolin actively trying to befriend Kaladin. But that doesn’t mean their prior passion and obsession over each other should go to waste… In OB, we see a further strengthening of their bond. When Amaram is appointed highprince, Adolin’s first thought it for Kaladin. When they assemble the team for Kholinar, the number one person Kaladin wants to bring is Adolin. After Kaladin freezes in Kholinar, we see Adolin’s amazing tenderness in dealing with Kaladin’s shock and defending him to Shallan when she doubts Kaladin is up to the task in infiltrating the lighthouse; Adolin is incredibly insightful that what Kaladin needs the most is a task, and in fact we see that the task of getting to Dalinar is what helps pull Kaladin out of his depression. Before we get to a couple more literary tropes, I wanted to point out that we get a couple viewpoints at the end of OB where Adolin is a bit miffed that Shallan is acting interested in Kaladin. While you could take the obvious read here, another interpretation is that Adolin is also realizing the romantic attractiveness of Kaladin, and so these moments are a bit discomforting because he’s not sure he can deal with his own feelings for Kaladin. And these feelings then lead to him wanting to get out of the betrothal with Shallan; ostensibly he is stepping aside for Kaladin to be with Shallan, but could it really be that Adolin doesn’t want to be with Shallan because he himself is in love with Kaladin? To highlight a few more effective literary tropes, Adolin and Kaladin exemplify highborn/lowborn or prince/country girl (err boy). Adolin is the son of a highprince, literally at the top of Alethi society, whereas Kaladin is a darkeyes, the peasant class of Alethi society. As I will discuss below, this actually provides them both immense opportunities for growth, in addition to help provide some depth to the passionate conflict discussed above. Another trope which would be at play, if Kadolin came to fruition, is quirky individual reforming the playboy. Adolin is showing jumping from woman to woman, a notorious playboy with a bad reputation. Who better to reform him than our plucky darkeye who overcame horrible injustice and saved the day? Note that all of the tropes highlighted above are used in Shalladin and Shadolin, but are split between the two relationships. With Kadolin we have all these tropes combined in one! The more the merrier Kadolin: Why They Work Despite their obvious differences in social status, Kaladin and Adolin have many similarities. They are both extremely good fighters; Kaladin is presented as the best spearman in the books and Adolin as the best swordsman. They are both immensely loyal individuals who are surprised/hurt when others are disloyal to them (e.g. Jakamov for Adolin and Moash for Kaladin), because they could never imagine acting that way themselves. They are both very honest individuals, often portrayed as being too blunt, but which means they will always speak their minds to one another. Both have fathers who they deeply admire but are not sure if they can live up to; but both of them have moments when they doubt the quality of their father’s character (and Adolin may have more of this to come.) Both have younger brothers who society portrays as “weaker” than them that they want to protect, but both also know their brothers have hidden strengths which society cannot see. Both also can tend towards vengeance, while also have a strong moral compass in other respects, which will allow them to understand the other’s need for vengeance by also providing the perspective to push back on this. Kaladin and Adolin of course have many differences. The most obvious is their social standing, and in this respect they are good foils for one another with Adolin providing Kaladin an example of an honorable lighteyes and Kaladin providing Adolin with an example of a darkeyes who is every bit his equal. On a purely physical level, they are presented as opposites; Kaladin’s dark hair and dark eyes and Adolin’s light hair and light eyes are often mentioned. Their personalities mirror this dichotomy; Adolin is generally positive whereas Kaladin suffers from depression. From a metaphorical sense, Adolin’s name literally means “born into light” and that light is exactly what Kaladin needs in his life at times. Adolin is also associated with the “sun” in the books whereas Kaladin is the “storm”, an accurate summary of this light/dark dichotomy. Kaladin is also a more scholarly type with his background in surgery while Adolin is more practical, always focused on the action-items. While Kaladin can get into his own head, Adolin is better at focusing on what needs to be done. In any relationship, one of the most important things in how each person can help the other grow. I already highlighted above how Kaladin and Adolin help resolve each other’s classist prejudices. Adolin is also one of the most supportive characters in the book (and he actually is a supporting character ), and he displays this enumerable times towards Kaladin in the books, following Kaladin to jail after the 4v1 duel and being Kaladin’s main support when he’s in shock in Shadesmar are two notable instances. (I would argue Adolin’s main concern in Shadesmar is for Kaladin, which just shows the strength of his affection.) Kaladin is all too often shown supporting others, but he sorely needs support in his life as well, which Adolin can provide. Kaladin is also worried about protecting everyone, and Adolin is one of the characters we’ve seen who needs the least protection; Kaladin trusts Adolin can take care of himself! As far as how Kaladin can help Adolin, I think Kaladin’s scholarly side can help bring that out in Adolin. Because of the strict gender split on scholarship in Roshar, Adolin has been pushed by women to read their books and see scholarship from their perspective. As an action-oriented person, Adolin is more drawn to active pursuits. Kaladin can help provide Adolin a form of scholarship to which Adolin will be more inclined – taking action and relating what one has learned to real-world problems. In fact, one of Adolin’s more scholarly moments (cutting through the plateau structure at the end of WoR) is the result of this kind of melding of scholarship and action which Kaladin can help him achieve. Perhaps most instrumentally, Kaladin can help provide Adolin perspective on how the majority of Alethi live, which will help Adolin be the best ruler he can for his people (because, no matter what he wants, he is going to be a ruler.) As Kaladin has a strong sense of leadership (it is one of his order’s traits after all), he can help Adolin not lead out of duty but instead out of a desire to lead, as so far while Adolin is quite talented at leading, he has had to be pushed to take up the responsibility. Kaladin can help provide inspiration in that regard. And well, let’s be honest, Kadolin is just plain hot Conclusion Kaladin and Adolin's relationship is acceptable in-world and both would welcome/accept a romantic relationship with a man. Kadolin follows popular tropes for setting up a romantic relationship. Kaladin and Adolin have similarities which allow them to understand and support each other but enough differences to add spice to their relationship and provide each other avenues with which to grow. Kadolin is the best NB: If anyone would like citations for any of the above, I am happy to provide.

Hi - I wasn’t able to follow along with this discussion over the weekend, so apologies if I’m retreading old ground, and that this post is so long. I’m going to try and organize based on topic in an (unsuccessful) endeavor to make this a little shorter. Shipping and Character Discussion Like others have said, my perception is “shipping” is a bit of a dirty word around here. I think that is part of the attitude which led to ASK becoming what it became. In my mind, when people say someone is a “shipper”, that means your emotion is overriding your analytical ability and therefore your opinions and analysis is not as valid. I liked @Kogiopsis's post on the subject in another thread, as I think it helps lay out the various positions when it comes to “shipping”: the emotional side, the theorizing on where the author is heading, and the fact that any complete character discussion of almost every character (for better or for worse, depending on your position) will include a discussion of that person’s interactions with romance. Yes to this. I’m not artistic or creative (in the slightest), but I drafted an entire post on Kadolin (my emotional ship) after encouragement from a mod actually (@Greywatch), but around that time there was a lot of pushback against the idea of discussing even the canon romances, so I didn’t want to put myself in the line of fire for posting something which was 100% based on emotions. I can clean that up and post it though (tomorrow) if people would like? Does that even belong in the regular OB board though? Along the lines of new posts (but on a totally different bent), I don’t want to poach @maxal's work, but I can also tomorrow pull our posts on Adolin’s fashion into a new thread. I thought that was interesting as well and the shut down happened right after the discussion got started. I gulp at saying this, but I also had some thoughts on Adolin and why he is so divisive (which I put in a spoiler, in ASK, if you want to see how far I buried that) from right before the shut down that I can also post… I don’t know how far we want to go with this as that goes into an area which can be more contentious. It became an important space because it was the only place some of us felt like we could discuss the things we wanted to discuss, as there was an extreme amount of negativity towards discussing romance and especially anything love triangle related anywhere else. I think as long as there are rules against people rejecting the idea that such discussions can happen (see below), having new threads on character discussions could definitely work. As I said above, I also like the idea of delineating whether a discussion is pure fun shipping, theorizing on where the author is headed with a romance or discussing a character in which romance will be part of the discussion. I personally don’t feel like I need this as long as the changes below come to fruition. As long as I feel like I can talk about the things I want to talk about openly, that works for me. Others may have a different opinion though! Moderation Generally I like all of these ideas. I’m someone who likes knowing rules. I think if I had known I could (and was even encouraged to) report posts which made me not want to contribute character/romance posts it would have changed how I interacted on the forum. It seems like some of the people who I felt were hostile did not mean to be, and if it had been addressed as the beginning, perhaps a lot of the unpleasantness could have been avoided. I agree with this. I think there is definitely a time and a place for public scolding. One of the things which I think would be nice is if there was more transparency about actions taken, but to tell you the truth, I think that cuts against limiting public scolding to more intense situations. The other forum (about a sport) which I’m involved in notes when posts are removed by a moderator or edited by a moderator. (It seems like here usually the staff asks the poster to edit, so I’m not sure if moderator editing is possible.) I’m actually not sure how a staff post in a contentious debate would be received along the lines of “This discussion got out of hand. I talked to the users involved, and it was resolved” or something like that. Not sure about this idea myself, but just a thought. Sorry if I’m getting repetitive, but I like all of this. Moderators and their Opinions Honestly, yes? I think part of the problem is the perception, especially when it came to ASK and there seemed to be a cohesive mod opinion, and if you were against the opinion, you really had to watch yourself. (As others had stated, the Shardcast didn’t help with this perception.) I think I would have interpreted actions differently if I hadn’t known the opinions of the moderators. (I’m not saying this forum needs to go this way, and I don’t think it will, but since you asked…) I like these ideas, which counter a lot of my issues with moderator opinions. I will say in the other forum I’m involved in, mods just run “mod accounts.” There are two or three of them, so you don’t know which person behind the mod is doing which actions. The mods also have their own usernames, but when they are a “mod” that’s all they are doing. Other No worries. In retrospect, I maybe would have liked to be asked, but considering I expected the post to be deleted, to be put on mod status and to be told I could only discuss the issue in PM, I was completely fine with how it was handled. I remain impressed that this discussion is even happening, so thank you for that. Not related to any of the above, but thank you, and I agree. I’m guilty of it too, and given this is only online interaction without the benefit of other social cues, language becomes much more important than it would if there was other context involved. It's sometimes very hard to ascertain someone's tone!

I will freely admit I have never reported a single post, and that is not because I didn't want to. The two items I flagged for Chaos were by PM; the first arose naturally from a discussion we were having, and the second I brought up when it arose later as it pertained to that same discussion. I definitely understand how things can slip through the cracks when it's funneled through one person, even if unintentional. That being said, why didn't I report any posts officially? One of the comments in the first post I flagged called shipping discussions a "toxic rep generator", which I think is so far over the line of being offensive that it's not even close. When I mentioned it to Chaos, I want to say it was a week later, and he had the post immediately taken down. But more to the point, no one reported it at the time. And it's not because it wasn't offensive - like I said, that's pretty blatantly offensive - but IMO because the poster who said the comment was a well-established posters with thousands of posts to their name. It's very, very hard as a newer poster to report things like that. And it's even more difficult when the offensiveness skates the line and you risk being labeled as someone who is overly sensitive or being difficult, which will in turn have the moderator staff be less likely to take future reports seriously. That's actually why I thought my second flag didn't warrant a response; that it was deemed to be a silly thing to flag, not worthy of even being addressed. (I now know this was wrong, but that was my thought process at the time.) So yes, you can report, but sometimes that's a hard thing to do, especially when you feel like you have a target on your back for being part of a group who has opinions contrary to all the moderators who have publicly shared their opinions, about a topic which is constantly being maligned for the fact it is even discussed. To explain what I meant, censorship can be effectuated in overt ways, like shutting down threads on a certain topic, or more covert, like having higher behavioral expectations for those whose views differ from the majority. Until recently, I felt it was more of the latter. (And as has since been explained, the more overt censorship was not intended to be censorship. Though I do wish the fact that staff wanted to facilitate discussion, just in another manner, would have been more obvious in the ASK thread locking post.) I don't have much of an opinion here, and I actually find post count to be a bigger indicator as it's sitting right there next to the person's name when they post. I don't even know the hierarchy of the reputation levels besides in very broad strokes, honestly. That being said, I think reactions could be fun. Yes, you can contact RandomUse096; it's called sending them a PM. I don't get this argument at all. You have a way to privately address any member of the 17th Shard through PM. Yes, they may respond poorly (your next point), but that seems to be a hazard of moderation. If someone responds poorly, then you can take other steps. There isn't actual risk in this situation, it's not like deciding to go to your friend's house to discuss a situation versus going to a stranger's house; you have total authority to moderate a user, ban a user, delete their posts, modify their posts. Shouldn't the exact way you dealt with your friend be the way you deal with all posters? These are nice words, but they came after a discussion on how you treated your friend, intentionally, in a more favorable manner than you would have another poster. If you know you have a bias, then in your role as moderator, I don't know why you wouldn't over-correct for it. You know someone is a friend or a well-established poster, maybe then you should be more likely to call them out for bad behavior, not less likely. This isn't a situation where bias could help protect you from harm (an argument used in respect to profiling), so it's an easy situation where moderators can actually work to create an impression in the community that they will reprimand even friends/well-established posters if they cross the line, instead of handling it behind closed doors, or giving them the benefit of the doubt that they "didn't mean it that way." I'm sorry, but if I came to you to say you've been offensive, why would I expect anything different than the way I've been treated (and seen others been treated) on the public forums? If anything, I expect gloves to come off behind closed doors. But, you're right that I assumed it was intentional, and so I avoided topics where I thought you might immediately jump all over me and stayed in my (now condemned) sandbox. I apologize that assumption was incorrect, but can you honestly say you respect my opinions and don't consider me "just a silly shipper"? It's not about volume, but about tone. I feel it happens more when something in unsupported, than when it is unpopular. The poster gets jumped on and told very dismissively how many ways they are wrong. I don't think it's bad to point out the way that an idea falls apart under closer scrutiny (of course), but it's negative when the tone of this is in such a way to discourage floating ideas. The other thing I see is "why are we discussing this again" type replies, or "why are you even considering this" when someone doesn't have a way to refute a new poster's ideas. You touch on this later in your post, but the main reason ASK became the only place to discuss shipping is because posters got upset when it was discussed anywhere else. I like the idea of a character sub-forum. I also like the idea of strong moderator rules regarding the fact a negative opinion about a character is not a personal attack. That seems to be the big thing the incites conflict when it comes to character discussion. Well, you were part of the overarching discussion I responded to, and more specifically were named in the quoted section from the original post. As a more general matter, while I've never had a direct interaction with you, there does seem to be a you and Calderis tag-teaming thing going on when new posters or less "serious" posters start a new thread. That's not to say your thoughts aren't important (and I'm guessing this isn't intentional), but it does seem to create the impression of more hard-core posters piling on someone new/less favored. IMO, that's only a problem when it seems the moderators are all of one opinion, especially about controversial topics. (This is obviously the case with the whole ASK controversy. The mods did a podcast about their position and stated they did not know anyone with the opposing position to represent that viewpoint on the podcast.) So, if this is the case, and the one topic which is generating the most moderator need is also a topic where all the chosen mods have a very publicly stated bias, maybe that's a reason to do a little rejiggering and bring in someone else, if only to lessen the public appearance of that bias in action. I'd like to throw in here that older users also learn how to have the same effect with a less blatantly offensive post through means of passive-aggression and condescension. Those tactics can be just as effective in discouraging opposing viewpoints, but they are much harder to monitor, especially when used by friends/established posters who are getting the benefit of the doubt as to their intent... And I get back to my first point, that as a newer poster, it is very hard to report someone established who isn't being blatantly offensive, even if their posts consistently make you feel like crem. Huh... I think that's something that we're just going to fundamentally disagree on. Would be curious if others feel that way. My two cents, posts from a moderator carry more weight than posts from a normal user. It's like when a company executive makes a statement; you're going to listen more to that than you are to a random employee.

I want to believe you about this, and I partially do. I've twice brought to your attention posts that Calderis made in response to mine. The first time, you took action, said you spoke to him and he agreed the post was offensive, and took down the offending post. The second time, you ignored me. Maybe that was an anomaly. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt. [Edit: I found out after this original post that action was taken on the second report just not communicated to me.] But I am finding it hard to believe the moderator treatment has been the same as it has been for less "favored" posters. I cannot know the answer to this, but have either of them been moderated (required moderator approval of posts prior to posting)? You admit they are repeat offenders. It would make sense that a repeat offender would be moderated at times, especially as I know others have been moderated for singular offenses. Given the extreme frequency of their posts, and the often slow speed at which I know others' moderated posts have been approved, I am doubtful this has been the case. I apologize if this is an incorrect assumption; maybe they have both been on moderated status a lot. What I do know is that you publicly chastise posters for bad behavior. This thread is an example, as it contains multiple posts of you chastising IronBars. This is not a bad tactic; public shaming is highly effective. However, I have never seen Calderis of RShara publicly chastised prior to the rather vague statement above. So even if I can take your word for that you are consistently responding to concerns about their posts and treating them the same as others behind closed doors, publicly the treatment is noticeably different. It's no secret that the moderators of this forum have a consistent bias, in general not liking criticism of the book and specifically having strong opinions on certain topics, as these views have been aired very publicly. From what I have seen, it is the posters whose opinions run contrary to the collective "moderator opinion" who are the ones publicly chastised. For instance, a moderator once brought in a friend as an "attack dog" to the shipping thread (the poster stated they were there to provide snarky comments), the moderator's friend got extremely heated and was reported. The moderator team on some level must have agreed on the offensiveness of the post, as it was deleted and then reinstated with revisions. No public chastisement was given. This is not an anomaly; it's been quite clear that biased treatment is to be expected. I disagree with almost every one a IronBars opinions. (I can't think of any I agree with actually?) But, I certainly understand and sympathize with his frustration over dealing with elitist, condescending posters and a moderating staff that appears to be blatantly biased. I give IronBars a lot of credit for sticking with their opinions on this thread. I wouldn't have been able to do it. I essentially stopped posting on threads other than the shipping thread in order to avoid interacting with many of the frequent posters here, who I saw were condescending of others and who treated me the same in my limited interactions with them. I had no faith the moderators here would respond to my reports even if I made them, let alone treat my concerns fairly. This forum is of course a private enterprise. You can censor certain views all you want. You have zero obligation to act in a manner that is not arbitrary and capricious. It is disappointing as someone who truly loves the author's work (and even more disappointing that this an official fan site, and thus carries with it the implication of being endorsed by the author), but people like myself and IronBars can choose not to participate, take our offending views elsewhere. And in the end, that may be the whole point.

@Alderant Loved the first chapter. I especially loved the foreshadowing about cracked pottery; absolutely brilliant how that gets picked up 2.5 books later! I'll be curious to see how you tie later things in as you get to them. On this, because I think some of your thoughts on later chapters may influence how you think about items in earlier chapters, maybe easier to put in one document and highlight what is new in an earlier chapter? But honestly whatever is easiest for you. This is a big project, and thank you for sharing with all of us. Can't wait to read!

I completely agree with this. I actually really really like OB (it wasn't WoR, but that was an extraordinary reading experience), but being a lover of romances, I was very disappointed in the Adolin-Kaladin-Shallan romantic arc. After a lot of discourse, I'm pretty sure it's not over, so I'm in "waiting for something to come it" mode instead of "disappointed" mode. And even if I'm wrong, at least it's made me enjoy OB more for now! I have also thought this is a good intro plot line for Kaladin in SA4 (finding his family and relocating them to Urithiru), but I'm not sure how that jives with the one year gap. I'm pretty certain we'll see Kaladin away from Shallan and Adolin for the first bit of SA4 for some reason or another (and finding his family/Hearthstone townspeople would be a very satisfying one from my perspective), because there needs to be chance for the Shallan/Adolin marriage to crumple without it being directly related to Kaladin. (I can't imagine it's going to be Kaladin who drives them apart, doesn't seem Brandon's style.) In this respect, OB to me was a mixed bag. Dalinar got a very nice, complete character arc. Shallan had a lot of development (not growth, but expanding her character), but there wasn't a conclusion to her arc in the book; that's definitely a story arrested in development at the moment. Kaladin is much the same as Shallan. (They are almost always mirroring each other in this series.) We had some nice minor character arcs, including Venli and Timbre, Skar becoming Radiant and the reveal of Renarin's void-ish spren. But mostly it was Dalinar, and if you weren't into that arc, I can definitely see how the book would fall flat.

I can understand the normalcy point, though I don't know if I agree with it (normal would have been a uniform for Adolin, as that is what he's been wearing for the past six years. Fancy clothes would be a novelty at this point.) Even if we take the normalcy point, that is along the same lines as Adolin's focus was elsewhere besides on the task at hand, on making himself comfortable, on feeling normal. A perfectly natural feeling, but also different than the other three who were pushing their personal boundaries in order to accomplish the task (Kal being a lighteyes, Shallan risking her life to feed beggars (a misguided attempt, but that was her intent), Elhokar actually being a leader (lol at that last one)). I like your point about that quote on "fit" a lot more. It's something I had forgotten about. I'll quote it below for reference: Putting aside the fact this is a really stupid question by Shallan (they had been oathgate-napped from a battle. Why would Adolin wear a party suit to a battle? That's like me being kidnapped from the gym and someone asking why I was in gym clothes instead of a party dress), as I actually think the fact the question was so moronic means it was definitely only inserted so that Adolin could say his line using an alternate meaning of "fit." He's obviously not talking about physical fit (he didn't change size in the past day), but instead figurative fit. This aligns with Adolin's reflection on "feeling taller" when he puts back on the uniform prior to the battle. This shows great personal growth for Adolin IMO. The way I read it is that Adolin was able to indulge himself, for the first time in years, in the frivolous vanity of fancy clothes. He did so (much like a college student gorges themselves on bad food when they move out of their parent's house), and he realized he actually felt better, stronger in the uniform, and that frivolity didn't fit him anymore. Good, subtle character growth, so excellent point. Now, what is really interesting is that later on in Shadesmar (Ch. 101, Deadeye), there is an Adolin chapter which starts with Adolin sewing and having much thought over his Celebrant disguise clothes (and later critiquing everyone else's.) This is also the chapter where Adolin has conversations with both Ico and Azure about his concern with being king now that Elhokar is dead. I don't think this is a coincidence considering the above. Adolin had previously decided he didn't need fashion, as the utilitarian uniform suited him and made him feel better, yet the next time we see him fussing over fashion, he has a conversation (with Azure) that becomes one of the turning points in his decision to refuse to be king. So he's coming back to the frivolity of fashion at the same time he starts going down the path of abdicating his duty (or what his family would see as his duty), essentially turning away from the uniform and what it represents. [ETA: I think this does tie into the last part of the quote above - about not being worthy to wear the uniform due to his killing Sadeas. That is a huge factor in why he abdicates being king, and in fact his justification to his father, so it's as though Adolin is deciding he doesn't deserve to wear the uniform anymore, so in fact the frivolous clothes actually fit him better in the end due to his perceived lack of worthiness.] I'm spoilering this next part as it's long and only sort of on point. The codes were kept by the whole Kholin army. Adolin was playing Meleran Khal, youngest son of General Khal (see Ch. 69 and 77 for mention of this), who is a member of the Kholin army. Meleran would be subject to the same codes as Adolin. You can't argue that the fashion interest isn't Adolin being Adolin; it's mentioned in WoK (complaining about following the codes) and WoR (looking at folios) and then of course emphasized in OB (even outside of when he's playing Meleran, such as in Shadesmar.) Whether in the mind of Brandon this is comic relief/a personality quirk or symbolizes something deeper (which is why I like Maxal's point) is what remains to be seen. But Adolin isn't interested in fashion because he's playing a part; it's something which is part of his character. Another spoiler, because I digress into a discussion on sexuality stereotypes.

The morality of Adolin's killing of Sadeas aside, I don't know if either of the four murders (one by Adolin and three by Shallan) would actually be outside of Kaladin's oaths. Shallan was protecting herself in two out of the three (mother and Tyn), which is self-defense and not a violation of protecting others (Kaladin's oaths so far.) There is a strong argument that Shallan's killing of her father was protecting others - her brothers and future servants/wives of Lin. With Adolin, one of the main arguments for its morality is that Adolin had to do it to protect his father/men from future harm which could be caused by Sadeas. Kaladin knows about Shallan's murder of her father, and actually thinks better of her for it, which argues it doesn't contradict his own sensibilities. (Contra the way he reacts to Jasnah in OB and her thought process.) That being said, "Shadolin works because they are both murderers" may be one of my favorite reasons for liking the pairing ever! You do realize Shadolin is the opposing ship in this triangle, right? And the one you're currently shipping? But Adolin didn't need to "play" the part of a lighteyes; he is one. If anything, he was "playing" a slightly lower dahn lighteyes - General Kahl's son - so it would make more sense had he been in uniform or something more practical. (Kahl, being a Kholin solder, I am assuming dressed in uniform due to the codes like all the rest of Dalinar's men.) It remains to be seen whether Adolin's love of fashion is just an amusing quirk, or if there's something deeper regarding frivolity, outward appearance, or some other connection, but even stalwart Adolin fans have noted his obsession with fashion while in Kholinar (and Shadesmar) seems at odds with what was happening. (Btw, Kaladin wasn't playing a soldier (he is one), but he was playing a lighteyes.) This is one of the more frustrating aspects of the triangle for me; why introduce it at all and then not even allow it to be explored? (I get for some people they liked that aspect though, because it was different than a typical romantic arc.) It will always make Shadolin feel like a false choice to me though. I don't feel like one discussion (which had maybe one line of mild flirtation?) is taking a chance though. Kaladin never voices his feelings for Shallan to her. Shallan does seem to take it for granted that she could have Kaladin if she wanted to, though I've mentioned before the fact I'm not convinced she's actually sure about his feelings. At least I find it hard to think she would be sure given the fact he doesn't act on anything. It's been pointed out before that Kaladin and Shallan have opposing ways of dealing with their suffering, so in that respect they could help balance out each other's reactions. (We actually see Shallan do this by telling Kaladin to snap out of his gloom in the chasms, as you mention.) Kaladin though definitely drops the ball in this respect in OB. Again it's potential that was teased... and then came to nothing. Well... if you read just Adolin's viewpoints, there is a decided lack of emotion towards/thinking about Shallan, so maybe his taking a step back is more indicative of his feelings for her... I agree that it's not the usual reaction to your fiance showing some interest in another man (if you indeed want to marry them.) Fighting for your own relationship is definitely different than deciding not to insert yourself in an existing relationship. This is by far the most popular human ship for Kaladin (Jasnadin), so plenty of people have gone way down this path before! (I don't know where it ranks in terms of Syl/Kaladin (Syladin), another extremely popular ship.) Considering we know from Brandon that Veil is just Shallan with a mask on (all of her masks are just this, including her prim Vorin princess one), this is actually Adolin treating Shallan herself as a drinking buddy. Here's Brandon talking about Shallan's masks on reddit, if that's of interest to you.

That would have been wayyyy too much effort for a Monday night