Dreamstorm

Whoa, I totally missed this. I hope you find it! There was a mention in the winehouse date in WoR where Shallan muses on the color of their children's hair, so she's definitely thinking procreation at that early juncture @JoyBlu Still a mother means children! And it infers she's done a drawing of herself as a mother...

Reviving this thread because I ran across a WoB which I don't think has been mentioned. RAFO is certainly not shutting down the possibility...

Chapter 1 of Book Four: Shallan woke up and rolled over to smile at the small bundle in the crib next to the bed. Storms, she loved her child. How could have known that the only thing she needed to heal herself was a baby? She was whole and real and had no more issues with her multiple personas. The baby had solved it all. It was a true miracle.

I’m really hoping we get some Rlain backstory in the Eshonai flashbacks. I’d enjoy learning more about the Alethi infiltration efforts. And one of my number one wishes for SA4 is a reunion between Rlain and Thude. I’m surprisingly excited for these flashbacks considering how boring I found Eshonai (and the listeners in general) prior to OB.

@maxal I get your point, thanks for working through this with me! I disagree with regards to the writing and the intent, but I understand why you are coming down the way you are. I remain hopeful that there's a bit more thought put into things, but I agree that given a lot of reactions (i.e. to the Shalladin/Shadolin arc, like you mention) many readers are perfectly fine with a lack of things "hanging together." I will hold out hope, but if SA4 drops these dangling plot threads, you can tell me I told you so (or I'll just remember to give you a shout out )

Alright, to stay on my latest favorite topic (Plus some other reactions at the end.) I don't mind the disagreement at all! Can you point me to where the evidence is in other viewpoints besides Shallan's? (Shallan is very untrustworthy - she even finds herself untrustworthy! - plus it's not very convincing to me when only one character's viewpoint supports a conclusion.) I remember points where Kaladin finds them nauseating together (lol) and where there is touching, but I don't even remember from Kaladin's viewpoints the inference of strong emotions. I would love to see these though! This very neatly summarizes how I feel! I agree with the rest of your post too. For both Shallan and Adolin, there is a strong sense that this was what was expected for them - to find a suitable match which makes political sense. Adolin is even considered lucky (as noted in WoK) that he gets to have a choice in the matter! They are both in a better position than expected as they actually like the person they are marrying (well, maybe one persona of Shallan loves Adolin, who knows), but that doesn't mean strong feelings. But, strong feelings weren't something either of them were raised to expect. I've been thinking a bit about @DimChatz's alternate triangle theory lately, especially as I pulled the quote below regarding how Navani sees Dalinar's relationship with Evi. (Spoilered because it's really long.) Kaladin has said/thought very similar things about how he sees Adolin and Shallan's marriage; that Shallan and Adolin fit, that everyone loves Adolin, that it's impossible to hate Adolin, that Adolin isn't a fool but he isn't clever (Shallan thinks that last one explicitly.) I think this explains how Adolin was raised to see a marriage - fondness and a strong desire to make it work - as that is what his mother modeled. None of this is bad, but it's not strong romantic feelings. I can't tell if you (i) agree with me that there isn't proof of Adolin loving Shallan or (ii) you're telling me I'm not looking hard enough for the proof that Adolin loves Shallan. If it's (ii), show it to me! I'd love to see quotes where Dalinar or Renarin or Jasnah or Navani is either thinking in their own viewpoints or saying to someone else how Adolin is in love with Shallan. I see a lot of support from other characters for their marriage, but I don't see any discussion about their emotions outside of the quote by Dalinar about fondness (see a couple of posts back of mine.) If it's (i), then it's great we agree on that, we just disagree why Brandon decided not to include any proof that Adolin loves Shallan (outside of Shallan's viewpoints.) You think it's a narrative weakness, a mistake by Brandon. I think it means something because it's a very easy thing to include which is conspicuously absent (and I just can't get behind the argument that no one - out of many alpha readers, including professional ones from his publisher, and dozens of beta readers, including many which we know from posting on this board are huge Shadolin fans, didn't mention something about this.) And not only is it absent, but we get evidence (showing not telling evidence) to the contrary. Twice Adolin chooses to support/hang out with his buddy (Kaladin) instead of Shallan. (When escaping Kholinar in Shadesmar and when choosing what to do in Celebrant.) But the most convincing scene I quoted below. This is an interaction just between Adolin and Shallan. We see Adolin have thoughts/take actions which then directly contradict a "romantic line" he tells Shallan. (He does think the outfit is unflattering; the highstorm clouds could compete since they pulled him away before.) So Brandon decided to include a scene where we find out we can't trust Adolin actually believes his romantic lines to Shallan while also not including (in Adolin's PoV) any strong evidence about how Adolin feels about Shallan. To relate this to how you see Brandon writing Adolin (what you see is what you get), what I see is evidence in one direction (Adolin not having intense feelings about Shallan) but very little evidence (or unreliable evidence, i.e. Shallan) in another direction. I haven't read this book, but this sounds horrible. I would so much rather have a female-sex skewed narrative than to have to deal with this. Coercive sex is deeply, deeply troubling to me I LOL'd at the cigar This remains my favorite piece of foreshadowing on this arc. I was in a bad, bad place with Brandon when I realized this (because if I take the hand holding, eye gazing, choosing the "real" Shallan scene at face value it is very upsetting from a female agency perspective), and this was the moment where I decided, storm it, something isn't right and I'm Shalladin all the way. (And then I was back to loving the books.) This is an awesome find! There are so many clues that Veil is much closer to realShallan than maskShallan (the persona she created in order to survive her abusive household.)

@Subvisual Haze as additional support for this, note that Navani saw Dalinar and Evi has having a really solid relationship, one which she characterizes as “love.” (I think she’s wrong in that regard, but nevertheless that was her perception.) We also have a WoB that while Navani isn’t the most reliable, because good thoughts about Evi are against her interest, she’s being pretty truthful when she relates them. The “beast” that was the Blackthorn wasn’t what people saw in his marriage; he wasn’t a beast to his wife. (I think your point about how upset they both were about an argument with yelling and a slammed door is a really good one. That clearly wasn’t a common occurrence in their relationship.) Navani perspective: WoB:

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here... but safe to say, I don't find there to be ample clues. In fact, I don't find there to be much evidence outside of Shallan (who is our least reliable narrator and extremely biased in this regard) and sort of Kaladin (who is also biased due to his attraction to Shallan) that Adolin has much intense emotion for Shallan. (I'm not saying he isn't fond of her, just that he's not "in love" with her, like the love we see between other Brandon characters.) Regarding how Dalinar finds Adolin to be in love with Shallan, is there any point where he even mentions Adolin's emotions surrounding Shallan besides the below? He mentions her in relation to being a Knight Radiant and betrothed to Adolin later in WoR and mentions the fact a son is married at the end of OB, but I don't recall he comments on the strength of Adolin's affection at any other point in time. I know Adolin doesn't get the screen time that Shallan, Kaladin and Dalinar get, but he is the fourth most prominent viewpoint character in the series. We see a lot of other thoughts from him - on Sadeas, on his feelings of not fitting into the Knights Radiant, on Kaladin, on Dalinar (especially in WoK), and even on Shallan early on their relationship (he list a bunch of positive traits about her after the winehouse date and tells Navani she is quite wonderful before the 4v1 duel.) Adolin's thinking about plenty of things but he doesn't think much about his romantic relationship with our main female character? If Adolin is to be reduced to his interactions with our main trio, his main purposes are (i) his relationship with his father and a foil to his father's "madness" in WoK, (ii) his romantic relationship with Shallan and (iii) his friendship with Kaladin. We hear a lot from him emotion-wise about (i) and (iii) but barely anything from him on (ii)? I just don't buy it. Take Navani in contrast; she is in a similar position - her main purpose (so far) is her romantic relationship with one of our male leads - and in her two viewpoints (end of WoK and coalition meeting in OB - I don't think there are any others?), she is pretty overt in her feelings for Dalinar, and even when she's not gushing emotionally in her OB chapter, she starts and ends the chapter focused on Dalinar's feelings and her support of him. That's what I feel is lacking from Adolin. (Not completely lacking - in his first Kholinar viewpoint he mentions he spent much of the previous night fretting about Shallan's failure to return - but anything matching, let alone intensifying, those types of sentiments is lacking as we go along.) So, even if I agree with you that Brandon doesn't take Adolin as important or feel the need to develop Adolin more, we're talking about how Adolin feels about Shallan, our main female character (who got like a quarter of OB debating her own feelings for Adolin vs. Kaladin.) I really don't buy that Brandon doesn't think Shallan's romantic relationships are important; he's simply devoted way too much page time to developing them for that to be the case. Adolin's feelings in that relationship are vital to Shallan, even if Adolin himself is not important. Anyway, I know we aren't going to change each other's minds here, but I think when an author phones it in for a character and makes that character really simple, things about that character are really obvious. Like, as @Prelude mentions, you can just add a couple lines like "storms he loved that woman" or "he had never met anyone as incredible as Shallan." That's the easy thing for an author to do. The fact it's not really obvious (from Adolin's perspective, or from anyone's perspective other than our most unreliable narrator) to me seems like a red flag.

And then followed up immediately with Bridge Four appearing and: "Teft. Knight Radiant." I definitely teared up at that and had to pause the audiobook and take a moment. The Teft parts really worked for me, both on a continuity level to keep us in touch with what was going on at Urithiru and on an emotional level. @MonsterMetroid I completely agree with you that I'm enjoying the book more and more on reread!

I can't stop thinking about this Adolin/Kaladin moment - it just makes me smile. Their friendship is probably my favorite relationship in SA so far; they are just the cutest! (I also think this moment makes a nice contrast to Moash's salute a chapter later. Old friend who betrayed you contrasted new friend (who hopefully won't...))

I know we're coming at this from different sides, but to the outside observer, Adolin's life just got more perfect in OB - married to his dream girl (who happens to be one of the most important woman in the world), becoming highprince and finally stepping out of his father's shadow to be the amazing ruler he was destined to be. He's supposed to be happy, happy, happy. His life is great! But we know differently... Adolin doesn't want to be highprince. He's at some point soon going to find out his father killed his mother. He married his wife out of duty rather than love. (I know you disagree with that one - I'll discuss it below - but it comes into play in how I see possible character development.) He killed a highprince; something which isn't general knowledge and which he is constantly thinking about, even though everyone seems to be telling him its a good thing (either because they think it's a good thing Sadeas is dead in general or because they don't care Adolin did it, like Shallan), the one exception being Dalinar, and he doesn't care how Adolin feels, only the political repercussions. He is one of the only regular people in a family of Radiants. He's in love with his best friend. I think this leaves a lot of room for interpersonal development, in the contrast between how the world sees Adolin and how Adolin feels inside. I know you think Brandon just won't go there, but I will hold hope in these dark times between SA books.... So, I would agree with this, except I don't think Adolin is in love with Shallan. I actually assumed he was too, since Shallan certainly talk about their relationship like he does, until I read just Adolin's point of views back-to-back. He thinks shockingly little about Shallan, and besides a few mentions of her looking fetching (along with some of her not looking so fetching), his PoVs show scant emotion for her. One can interpret his viewpoints and his actions differently, but on a more basic level, Adolin never thinks that he loves Shallan or tells her that he loves her. Brandon isn't stingy about having his characters say they are in love romantically (Elend and Vin actually annoyed me with the amount it was said, ugh.) Dalinar and Navani say they love each other. Brandon on reddit said he was aiming for a part of Shallan to be in love with Adolin and a part of Shallan to be in love with Kaladin (he used love). We see on the page that Adolin-loving part of Shallan say twice that she loves Adolin. Adolin isn't an emotionally reticent guy. If he's in love with Shallan, why isn't he saying it? Why aren't we seeing him think it? It's not like Brandon to be coy with this if that's what he's trying to get across. This is what I would consider to be the most prominent pro-Shalladin opinion - they definitely shouldn't have gotten together at the end of OB (or anytime in the near future in-world), but this is where we're headed eventually (Also, long posts are standard on this thread. A number of us are very guilty of this (raises hand), so welcome to the club!) @wotbibliophile I loved the "thinking about sex" investigation! Gosh, I'm such a Brandon cheerleader these days, but maybe part of the reason is to (consciously or unconsciously) give the women more agency in their sexual actions? If the women are the ones who want to have sex, it lessens the possibility they are only doing so to satisfy their male partner. ******* I want to finish this with another WoB quote about the difficulty of long fantasy series's for a reader. I will continue to cheerlead!

As far as Shalladin vs. Shadolin, I think he meant it to be divisive - probably not the "I'm going to bite your head off for talking about it on the forums" kind of divisive, but he did mention in his reddit post that he expected the love triangle "resolution" to be a major source of fan discussion, so it seems as though he wanted it to be debated. On a more meta-level, Shalladin vs. Shadolin is divisive in-world to Shallan as a character, so it's actually good writing for it to come across as divisive; we in the fandom are personifying her inner struggle. (Part of why I think the fact it was rushed and jarring was intentional.) As far as Adolin, I do agree that Brandon seems to have missed the mark as far as what fans want to see. I'm guessing he felt that having Adolin have a nice book without major struggles and the yay! of the Maya arc would be satisfying for most fans. I think if he was asked why Adolin didn't get more development, he would likely say "wait and see what happens in the next books." But, I do think he missed the mark as far as expectations and what was delivered in this book for Adolin's character; he just didn't meet fan's expectations, because fans wanted to see something more from Adolin given the WoR ending. Brandon has said he knows the structure is complicated and would be off-putting - in fact the series wasn't started until he had established himself for that reason. (See WoB below. It's long so I excerpted the part about how when he wrote it he was purposely going against convention.) Does that mean it's going to work? Definitely not. But, I do think there is a plan. Whether that plan ends up working for any given reader, or even for a majority of fans, is a question, but I don't believe it's sloppiness (i.e. we can trust the foreshadowing, we can trust things mean things), it's just what he thinks is interesting and different might not resonate with fans. @Prelude here's the quote if you want it. A nice bit of introspection about being famous. Also could be read as a meta-reflection by Brandon himself, apropos to this discussion

First, happy new year everyone!! Just as a general point, I am extremely happy with OB, and I think a lot of it is because these things which rightfully bug everyone as dropped/unexplored plot points, I think will be picked back up in the next book. Off the top of my head this includes - Adolin killing Sadeas, Kaladin killing Heleran, Shallan not accepting her last truth, Kaladin's 4th oath, Shallan's multiple personality issues - and of course the romance issues - stilted wedding for Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin and Shallan abruptly pushing aside their feelings. I see OB as a book where we readers learn a lot about the world through the trio - Urithiru, Unmade, voidbringers and their army, Shadesmar, lots of spren lore - but the trio is a vector for learning these things without much character growth. But because of my (maybe misplaced!) faith that these will be picked back up, I don't see them as negatives. But I know others feel differently! This is a really good point. I hadn't thought about it this way, because when we do finally get Adolin again, he is engaged in distracting action (distracting for him emotionally), so it makes sense he isn't as emotive about the Sadeas murder. He does think about it often, but you are correct that it's a bit discordant with intensity of the emotion we see in those first two viewpoints. Now that you point it out, I can see how these viewpoints feel added after the fact. I have a very different view on Adolin's romantic relationship weakness, which is that I think he's engaging in the same behavior which would drive women away in the past, but Shallan is more dedicated to making it work (she needs Adolin after all - first for her own security then later as an emotional crutch) and so she is fine with that behavior/idealizes Adolin in her head to compensate for it. What were two cute moments in OB - Adolin teaching Shallan the sword and taking her to meet Ialai - echo when he took Janala on the strap cutting investigation. Shallan reacts differently (though note she really didn't want to learn the sword, but Adolin pushed for it), but it's still Adolin engaging a girl in things he likes, not vice versa. (Note I don't think anything is wrong with this, but it's presented as part of his "courting issue" in WoK.) In his own PoVs, he's not that thoughtful towards Shallan (more thoughtful about Kaladin for instance), and we're shown that's he's phoning in one of his cheesy lines of praise. The one thing which does seem to be dropped is Adolin's flirting, though since we mostly see Shallan's viewpoints, we can't rule out that he still is being flirty/looky but she chooses to shut that out. I think Adolin's "relationship issues" will come to the forefront next book as part of the disintegration of the Adolin/Shallan marriage. I realize you have a different perspective on this which is fine! But this is why what you see as a dropped character point, I see as a point which is simmering below the surface. Yup. Agreed. And I could absolutely understand Shallan's decision, if she and Adolin went through any emotional bonding whatsoever. They didn't. They feel comfortable around each other and like to cuddle and stuff, but I just don't see any real emotional investment. Just necessity. Nothing really naturally evolved, they are at a standstill. Even worse, they are trying so hard to be cute and so 'in love', when it just turns into a giant cringefest, which even brings Teshav to roll her eyes. It just feels so forced. Shallan and Kaladin don't really feel like that. I don't think, that them confiding in each other was out of desperation, since they were relatively save in the alcove at that point. They didn't have a real reason to do it, but they did. Natural evolution of their relationship with each other. So I'm going to disagree with you guys that Shallan and Kaladin didn't have any bonding moments besides the chasms. @Mistbornwithakitty (awesome name btw) I agree that being forced into a desperate situation can create a "false" sense of a bond. After this desperate situation, I think you can get a distancing between the two people or you can get an increased closeness. Even though it's not shoved in our face, I think we get the latter. (Note, I'm not looking at this from a romantic perspective, but instead just from interpersonal closeness.) Once Kaladin comes back from Alethkar, Shallan decides to have him take her flying to draw Urithiru, so she's choosing to spend time with him. Kaladin chooses Shallan to accompany him to Thaylen City although he had other options who made more sense, most notably Renarin. We also have hints of conversations they have in this part (discussing Gaz for instance.) These are not "soul baring" moments, but they are two people who are choosing to spend time and interact when prior to the chasms they did not do so. (And it's not just because they are Radiants; Shallan and Renarin don't get closer for instance.) By the time we get to Kholinar, Shallan and Kaladin are working well together and seem to understand each other well - there are multiple times when Kaladin will raise eyebrow or give Shallan a look, and she'll get what he's conveying and vice versa (we see this from Shallan's PoV, for example after she exposes her safehand and prior to going into the Kholinar palace, and from Kaladin's PoV, for example in the winehouse waiting out the Everstorm.) Again, these are not romantic moments, but we see two people who are getting to know each other better such that they are able to read each other's emotions and expressions. We get a little throwaway moment at the very end where Shallan notes, "She'd seen how envious he's been as he'd watched those Fused, with their flowing robes, moving like the winds." Again, it's not dramatic emotion, but she knows him well enough to recognize his emotions and understand how he's feeling. Bottom line, at the end of WoR they had just come out of the chasms after a forced bonding moment but didn't know each other beyond that moment. By the end of OB, I would call them very firmly friends. (In fact, Kaladin might be the closest human to Shallan other than Adolin by the end of OB? Her relationship with Jasnah is stilted and very much a wardship rather than a friendship, and while her relationship with her men develops, it also seems strongly an employee/employee relationship.) I saw this totally differently! I thought this was the moment where we see a Shallan who fully accepts herself and an idea of the power she could possess. If she could just be the girl who is willing to show her safehand (put aside her prim, Vorin upbringing) she would have the power to throw back monsters. (We know from WoB, that the fact it was the safehand didn't impact Shallan beating Re-Shephir, but I think the fact Shallan was willing to expose it is very symbolic for her character.) She does in fact repel Re-Shephir in the moment where she remembers the full her. But instead of embracing that whole, powerful self, she once again chooses to shove down her secrets, and we end up with a weak girl who takes a week of pampering and tea drinking to get off the couch. In his defense, he went off to a male-dominated army at 15, Tien died, became famous with the spear so Tarah pursued him (he muses he would never have met Tarah without his reputation), dated her for a year, then shortly afterwards killed Heleran and was made a slave, ran in a bridge crew and then lived with a bunch of dudes. He's only 20! He's had a year-long relationship which is more than a lot of 20 year olds can say. I don't think he's very proactive or smart with women, but I also don't think that's uncommon for young adult males; they are all a bit dunces when it comes to romance

And later I agree with this. My perspective is: Radiant is the persona who can accept her truth about killing her mother and thus manifest the plate. maskShallan can't accept her truth and doesn't have access to plate (or even awareness that she can have it.) The interesting one would be Veil, as she doesn't have a hangup (I don't think?) about her matricide, but she's also not "proper" enough to be a Knight Radiant (in Shallan's opinion), so maybe Shallan's subconscious will not give Veil plate. I was hoping OB would be when we would learn about plate, but that's obviously being pushed back, as both Dalinar and Kaladin are set for 4th oath next book (WR's get plate for sure at 4th oath, we'll see for BS) and Shallan will hopefully accept her truth and be fully level 4.

Hi - A long, varied post because such excellent activity to finish out the year! I totally agree with what I've seen online (though I don't read reddit because I find is horrible to navigate due to that upvote/downvote thing which means things aren't chronological ), but oddly everyone who I know in real life who has read the books (these are people who are not involved in fan communities) thinks the romantic arc is in mid-swing and eventually the choice will be Kaladin. We're not dealing with a huge sample size here, but these were people I purposely didn't influence (given my disappointment in the arc so I was looking for independent viewpoints) who came down this way. I'm sure you've elaborated on this before, but what did you see in OB which was inconsistent with Adolin's character in the prior books? I definitely agree with you on the lack of development point. In general, I think all of Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin stagnated (or regressed) in this book, and I think that was intentional as their "growth" will occur in later books. If that growth never happens, I will be disappointed, but since I generally enjoyed the story we did see (even if it did lack character growth), I am happy with OB. Of course, both Shallan and Kaladin got plenty of page time (Shallan especially), and Adolin didn't, so that would be disappointing for an Adolin fan. I also think that Shallan and Kaladin had increased depth added to their characters even if no concrete growth occurred, whereas Adolin didn't really (in my opinion), so that is another thing to be disappointed about. But I'm curious to hear what inconsistencies you see! I feel like people tend to fall into three groups: (i) likes Shadolin (or Adolin) so are happy with the ending of OB (one side of this is dislikes Shalladin, so therefore likes Shadolin better), (ii) does not want to see any more romance in the books than absolutely necessary, so therefore are happy with the ending of OB so any possible future romantic development is eliminated (this one actually seems the most aggressive on this board) and (iii) maybe emotionally feels either (i) or (ii) or even pro-Shalladin but doesn't trust/believe in the literary foreshadowing. I think with (iii) it doesn't matter how much you put in front of someone, but until the overt storyline shows Shallan and Kaladin in an explicit relationship, no amount of evidence will matter. For (i) and (ii), I do feel like some of the hostility or lack of desire to engage is because those groups do not want to see any evidence which goes against their strong feelings. So it's hard to get an explanation with that dynamic! I so agree with your second point; I'm on a second full read (after a full reread of WoK and WoR post-OB), and I am loving OB on redo more than WoR! There's so much to dig into. We do get a lot of info dumping to resolve some of the mysteries, but much, much more is teased and left hanging for future resolution. I do trust that there will be future resolution, so I don't see this as a bad thing. Other may vary on this! I will (as you know!) object to your cigar is just a cigar analogy. I think it's one thing to stretch to try and find evidence to support a position. (We've all been there.) But here, it's just below the surface, and I feel like it smacks you in the face upon a reread. So I would say... cigar paper covering a firework is not a cigar; it's a firework which will explode in your face if you try to light it Since this is my favorite exercise... passages which jump out to me upon a reread (currently towards the beginning of part 3.) First, just a note about how much Kaladin and Shallan interact in Part 2 which is not shown - flight to Thaylen City (that one is the most obvious), flying to the surrounding mountains to sketch Urithiru (per Shallan's sketch which has Kaladin in it), mentions by Shallan of conversations she had with Kaladin (flying to TC, how many people he could bring to Kholinar), mentions by Kaladin of conversations he had with Shallan (hilariously his "pointed suggestion" that she not bring Gaz to Kholinar, lol.) There's a striking contrast between the one scene in part 2 we see of Shallan and Kaladin together (where she draws him after his spat with Jasnah) and the little hints we get that a lot more interaction occurred. Once we see them interacting in Kholinar, there's a certain level of familiarity which follows from this part 2 interaction. Before OB, their only one-on-one interaction was the chasm scenes (which was interaction forced by circumstance), so the amount of interaction afterwards is a definite contrast. In particular, why did Kaladin ask Shallan to go to TC? She says (to Elhokar) it's because she has stormlight and could survive a fall, but so does Renarin and he's technically one of Kaladin's men. Renarin seems like the much more logical choice. Second, below is from the flight to Kholinar. Just look at this independently... which boy is Shallan flirting with here?? Third, Shallan's justification of making Kaladin hideous for their entrance to Kholinar is interesting. She makes Adolin a handsome older man (see Kaladin's impression below - if we needed any Kadolin evidence on Kaladin's side, this is a rather flattering description ) and then tells Kaladin she had to make him grotesque since he "has a way of sticking in people's heads", hmmmmmm. Anyways, I know you're solidly in group (iii) that I set out above (won't be convinced until Shallan and Kaladin are explicitly together) so we can definitely agree to disagree, but while I absolutely agree that in WoR and OB part 1 there was a love story between Adolin and Shallan with Kaladin occasionally inserted, after that, to me it is reading like a love story between Kaladin and Shallan with Adolin occasionally inserted. My current thinking is that is why the ending felt so jarring; it's not like we had two equal romances going on. We had one developing romance (not like it was perfect, I agree the "I wish I could hide my feelings" scene was bad) and one romance which stopped developing a quarter of the way through the book (even the "big" Shallan/Adolin scene after part one, their talk on Honor's Path, is interrupted by Kaladin.) So, a very, very long way of saying that even absent the literary foreshadowing, I don't see a cigar. I saw a cigar in WoR. I saw a cigar in the preview chapters. But after that, it disintegrated. As @SLNC notes (thank for the shoutout!), I have come to believe Adolin doesn't have that strong of feelings for Shallan. Or if he does, Brandon has gone out of his way to make it seem like he doesn't in Adolin's PoVs. So I see Shalladin as actually the pro-Adolin ship. I really like Adolin, and I'm hoping he gets some better development and has some emotional struggles which he emerges from all the stronger. (I think there is some evidence for Dark Adolin, but that wouldn't be my preferred path.) And as part of this, since I am an incurable romantic in literature, I really want Adolin to have a romance that rocks his world and makes him feel strong emotions. We know this is possible for Brandon to show even for secondary characters (look at all of the strong romantic emotions in Mistborn Era 1 outside of Vin/Elend), and I want to see him feel those things! Navani has drastically less viewpoints than Adolin, and in her PoVs, we can feel her emotions for Dalinar. (Her "Justice" chapter in WoR is heartbreaking and then exhilarating.) I want Adolin to get that treatment, and right now, the romance with Shallan is just not giving that to him.

You just gotta just give into the Shalladin! Not even kidding though, once I came around to Shalladin being the end goal, all of my issues around this romantic plot went away. It's fake and rushed, because it actually is a fake and rushed (bad) decision for the character. But once I gave in, I could then appreciate these pretty adorbs little moments like the below. Not only do we have a bubbly enthusiastic Shallan, but also a mention of this delightful contrast that Brandon (through Wit and Shallan) so loves... Contrast quotes:

I think our MC Radiants (who are quite broken) would have interesting reactions to the idea of having children, both for internal and external reasons. (I can imagine this being particularly tortuous for Shallan given she killed her own mother and had a childhood filled with paternal abusive behavior. Eeesh.) For Jasnah in particular, we won’t get her book and her as a true MC until she’s at least 45-50 (depending on the length of the time skip) so we would miss out on much internal discourse that she would likely have (as you note) surrounding whether or not to even have children. (Or if we got any internal discourse it wouldn’t have much space to develop given Jasnah’s place as an occasional viewpoint character now.) I’m guessing purely from a book logistics perspective, having a child will not be in Jasnah’s future and any romance we get (if there is any) will occur in the back half of the series. It just doesn’t make sense for Jasnah to go through something which would be character upheaving (romance or motherhood) unless we were able to really get into her head about it. Or at least I hope that doesn’t make sense to Brandon, as I wouldn’t want to miss out on it!

While I don’t think Shallan is corrupted per se, I think there’s a good chance she’s being influenced by a force connected to Odium. (I think it’s hard to rule that out for any of our characters absent a WoB to the contrary.) With respect to at least one Davar brother, however, we know he is subject to some sort of negative force per the WoB below. Whether he’s considered corrupted or not, who knows (and I’m not sure the line between corrupted, a la Yelig-nar, and influenced, a la the Thrill, is clearly drawn, since I don’t see Young Dalinar as corrupted, but I bet others do), but it seems logical to surmise a magical enhancement that causes him to brutally kill animals is in some way of Odium.

Shallan’s desire to draw is a fundamental part of her character. As far as drawing being a compulsion or “need”, this seems to be associated with things which intensely fascinate her (e.g. arriving stormwall and face of the Stormfather - see quotes below) and I wouldn’t say it is necessarily sexual unless you read into the “Shallan in a highstorm” scenes as being sexual metaphors. (There’s an argument for that though. That argument follows through that Adolin “pull her back from the brink” and Kaladin “rides through it with her” if you want to go down that path )

This is my slam dunk symbolism (here and when Adolin chooses maskShallan and then she stands when Kaladin lands on the wall) that truly converted me to Shalladin I do not see how one can get past this unless you feel Brandon is a truly sloppy writer...

@Varion I agree all three of those are possible options, though with 3a and 3b, Odium is running scared with a hammer poised to fall on him. Can he run forever? (Fleet!) In 3c, I agree with @Greywatch that this would likely be more dangerous for Odium; even if he is forced to pick a subpar champion all he stands to lose is time, but I would think if Rayse fights directly, a loss (even if it’s unlikely) could cause Odium to actually shatter or have some other permanent impairment which he fears even more than the loss of time. On loss of time being the repercussion for losing the champion fight, this could be a potential way to account for our book 5-6 time skip, though 10-15 years isn’t that much time. I just prefer that to the gruesome MCs forge a new oathpact and go to Braize option. Though it’ll likely be neither!

I find the debate over whether or not Odium can choose another champion to be far from clear-cut. To break it down: Did Odium agree to a contest of champions? - We all seem to agree yes and the text supports this. What was the outcome of the contest? - Option 1: Odium won. I don’t think anyone is arguing this. - Option 2: Odium lost. Since there was no fight, this could be a loss through forfeiture (his champion refused to fight.) We don’t know what benefits humanity should get from a victory in the contest (Stormfather told Dalinar it was “time” but that’s not very specific), though perhaps the one-year time skip is the victory benefit? The other potential consequence for Odium post-loss (if one considers him to have lost) is that he may need to work through agents (as suggested by the Diagram) instead of directly. However he appears to Vargo, so it’s not like he’s banished from Roshar. Overall, there wasn’t much gain to humanity if this was an Odium loss so I find it unlikely Odium is considered to have lost the contest. - Option 3: The contest never started/is on pause. This seems to be what Vargo via the Diagram thinks at least. From the Diagram’s perspective, the contest is still open and Odium can be forced into the contest at any time, and since Odium doesn’t have another groomed champion this is a very risky proposition which Odium should avoid. Now is the Diagram correct in this assertion? Who knows. But with this option, it does seem like another champion can be chosen since otherwise the possibility of a contest would be closed. - Option 4: The contest is null and void because Odium’s selected champion refused to fight for him. I think this is what those who are arguing another champion cannot be selected are primarily advocating? I think this is a logical possibility, but I personally find it a little suspect because (a) this isn’t mentioned in the text anywhere and so seems like if we drop the champion possibility in the next book, it will be difficult for readers to figure out why it was dropped and (b) if Odium didn’t have a suitable champion this gives him an easy out - just choose the guy least likely to support him and the contest is null and void. (b) Seems like a large loophole that removes most of the drama of the situation (Odium can easily avoid losing even if he agrees to the contest), doesn’t align with what Stormfather says about how it will be hard to get Odium to agree to the contest and also wasn’t a possibility presented to the reader (either before or after the contest.) So, the way I see it, for the selection of another champion to be off the table, you have to believe either option 2 (Odium lost) or option 4 (contest null and void due to champion’s refusal to fight) occurred. Both of these seem a rather Odium-friendly and anti-climatic way of resolving the “Odium’s champion” plot; in one the consequences of Odium’s loss are very minor and in the other Odium can easily wiggle out of the contest, so his acceptance really meant nothing (and doesn’t align with the fact it was supposedly hard to get Odium to agree to a contest in the first place.) I personally see it as option 3 and the situation right now it like when Adolin chose a duel with Sadeas as his boon but Kaladin’s play for Amaram caused Elhokar to lose the plot; Adolin’s right to the duel was still alive and well but good luck pining Sadeas down to a time and place to get it done. I agree with those (and the Diagram) that say it will be tricky to pin Odium down, but not because the contest is dead, but because it will be hard to find Odium and force him to go through with it.

That post does a great job of explaining with quotes Jasnah's dislike/hatred of marriage, of which I totally agree. But after laying that out, the poster says the dislike of marriage stems from not wanting to conform to societal expectations (agreed on that), and that nonconformism stems from a disinterest in romance/sex overall. That seems like a big logical leap: Jasnah doesn't like romance and sex and that's the reason she's resistant to society's forced roles for women related to romance and sex? I could see a multitude of other reasons for Jasnah to dislike society's forced roles for women other than being asexual/aromantic, and could even see a past romance which didn't fit into society's mandate (so a situation where Jasnah was or wanted to be sexual/romantic) being the genesis of her dislike of marriage. So many fans think Jasnah is asexual/aromantic though (to the extent of being upset that people talk about her in a romantic context), that I feel I must be missing something in the books. At some point I'll motivate to start a thread on this, because it has nothing to do with Kaladin (no one seems to talk about Jasnah's sexuality except in relation to a potential relationship with Kaladin.)

A deviation from Jasnah and Kaladin... but why do people think Jasnah is so opposed to romance? Jasnah seems to find marriage distasteful, but marriage and romantic attachment are not synonymous; a marriage can be devoid of romantic attachment and a relationship can have romantic attachment even if outside of a marriage. Is there any evidence that Jasnah finds romance itself distasteful? I know some people think Jasnah may be asexual, and I wonder what evidence we have of this other than the fact she's above the age Alethi women are normally married off and has resisted getting married. (The institution of marriage in Alethkar and Jah Kaved seems designed to rob women of agency, so I don't blame her for feeling this way regardless of her sexual or romantic inclinations! She is explicitly all about female agency in her writings.) I find this quote below interesting, as this is Jasnah showing an intense fondness for a male. Who could this be? I believe the only plausible man we know of would be Gavilar, but Shallan knows of Gavilar and is in fact researching him, so why wouldn't Jasnah use his name? Why would Jasnah be portrayed as reacting to Gavilar in such a manner when Shallan and her have discussed him extensively in the past? If you ascribe to the "Brandon doesn't write something unless it means something" mindset this seems to point to an unknown man in Jasnah's past. Could be romantic, could be not, but I don't know why it would be presumed not to be romantic absent evidence to the contrary, especially as "dear to me," "fond" and "precious" are pretty strong descriptors used in relation to Jasnah.

I don’t know if it’s an assessment technique, but Jasnah seems to enjoy people who will challenge her. We see this in Shallan’s viewpoint when Jasnah is displeased when Shallan refuses to engage and then smiles when Shallan acts snarky towards her. I suspect a lot of people will wilt before Jasnah’s assertions, so it’s rare someone will confront her, let alone with wit (which occurs in each of these situations.) As far as romantic, as I mentioned previously, I think it would be incredibly fun to read (maybe someone could fanfic it??), and the age difference doesn’t bother me one bit, but I don’t think we have much to support it. As @Harbour says, Kaladin doesn’t mention Jasnah a single time in his viewpoints. Besides this one scene of dialogue, Jasnah asks about “the Windrunner” once in Shallan’s prior chapter and I think that’s it? (Someone let me know if there’s any other interaction between the two of them or if Jasnah mentions Kaladin or thinks about him another time - I don’t recall anything off the top of my head.)