Dreamstorm

I am incredibly conflicted about my feelings towards the Parshendi in general. I wish I could get into them... but I just can't. (And I judge myself for this, because I know it's because they aren't enough "like me", and I hate that I need a character to be "like me" in order to enjoy them.) Self-judging rant over... I'm pretty sure that Eshonai dying and Venli becoming the main Parshendi was always planned. In order to have one of our "protagonists" deep inside Odium's camp, we needed someone who was fully aligned with him at the start. Eshonai could never have filled this role. (This is the mirror of the ever-hated Moash (@mariapapadia ) who is our antagonist who was aligned with our heroes at the start.) We couldn't start with Venli as our "Parshendi introduction" character because then we would know she was aligned with Odium which would have colored the whole introduction experience even further. I'm assuming Eshonai has a much bigger role to play (given the flashbacks - I hope it's not just learning about Parshendi culture, as the best flashback sequence IMO was Dalinar where it really enhanced the present-day story), and I'm hopeful I'll get over my Parshendi problem as we dive deeper into Eshonai and Venli's characters! Agreed that Venli has grabbed me more than Eshonai ever did, and it also helps that Venli has directly overlapped with our main characters more than Eshonai did. (I know Eshonai met with Adolin, but that was just a small moment in her WoR story.) BTW @Ookla the Toasted, I really enjoy these single character analysis threads. If you're taking suggestions and so inclined, I would love a thread on Moash. I see him as pretty one-note at the moment, and I'd love to have people point out things I missed which would flesh him out a bit more!

This makes complete sense. When group consensus is leading one way, I think it's natural to either get on board and agree with the group or (especially when you just can't quite get on board) search out the things that make you feel off about the person/situation/plot and then have those elements really stand out because it seems like everyone else is ignoring them/explaining them away. Also, there are a group of characters who we see a lot of/see other characters talk a lot about but don't have too many viewpoints of and/or viewpoints with introspection. This means there are a lot of gaps in that character for each person to fill in as they wish. For me with Jasnah, I'm definitely putting her into the "independent woman who is bucking patriarchal institutions" bucket which is (obviously if you've read basically any post of mine ever) extremely appealing to me. For others, it might be "Jasnah knows the most about realmatics", for others "Jasnah has mastered surges better than any other Radiant" or what not (not an exhaustive list at all btw.) And since we have seen enough of the character to support the portrayal we find attractive, but not too much to be able to knock it down or find other negative traits, we can get rather attached. (I think this is similar to the honeymoon phase when you first start dating someone.) The true test will come when that character is more fully fleshed out and we have to face the good and bad things, just like you have to do with a real person. For some reason (without knowing you at all, lol), I have a feeling that when Jasnah's faults come to light more and others are starting to feel she's losing her shine, you just might be jumping on board

@kaellok great points! This definitely ventures off the topic, but I'm so intrigued by fandom dynamics I was just saying to a friend of mine that I'm sure many people have written sociology theses on fandoms which I need to search out. A couple comments: This intrigues me, because I see myself (and this thread in general) as pro-Shallan. What makes you see it as anti-Shallan? I think (maybe) I know what you're getting at, but I'd rather not put words in your mouth. I wasn't around to hear your WoR Shallan arguments, so I'd love to hear them here. (Or PM me if you don't want to add that to the wider discussion.) This is a really good point. I'm probably different than your typical fantasy fan, as this is the first "high" fantasy series I've really invested in (and Sanderson the first high fantasy author), mainly because what gets me is the characters and not the magic. I'm also a romance fan. So (like I know some have felt) part of the reason I started contributing to the thread is to help me work through why I felt so disappointed. So it did start (for me) as a "didn't like the romance" thing (not who was chosen but how), and though discussion, I realized I didn't like the romance because I didn't like what the romance implied about Shallan's character development. So anyways, my feelings on this tie into your anti-Shallan point (I think), so again very curious on your point of view there! Btw, I think a big reason there seems to be a cohesive viewpoint is because if you're happy about the outcome or don't care too much one way or another, you're not going to have the impetus to contribute. (Like me with the Maya thread - obviously quite popular, but I'm happy with spren revival or non-spren revival, so I don't have strong feelings one way or another.) Obviously this does lead to entrenchment on viewpoint (the other way that happens is being the lone warrior on the other side of the debate), which seems to me, for better or for worse, one of the primary outcomes of fandoms in the internet age.

I didn't mean that query as at all an attack on the Adolin character (though I can see why the Disney prince bit could be taken negatively), but more I don't understand the, um, intensity of the Adolin fanbase. I read this WoB (from reddit I believe) before OB came out where an Adolin fan was berating Brandon over the lack of Adolin in the book outline (that excel spreadsheet thing), and Brandon's first response was along the lines of, he's been a secondary character with limited viewpoints to this point and you seem to like him very much anyway, so why don't you see how this goes. The Adolin fan then started saying how they would be incredibly disappointed if Adolin didn't get more screen time and let down by the book, etc., etc., and Brandon's response was (because where else can you go), well, not everyone can be happy. I've read a lot of WoB's, and I've never seen that level of intensity about any of the other characters. (I don't see that level of intensity about anyone but Adolin on this forum too. I think part of the reason this thread isn't actually going to pieces is because people are disappointed, but still rational about their disappointment. I can't imagine the response it it was the other way around!) Anyway, long way of saying that my question wasn't to knock Adolin, but just addressing an long-standing puzzlement of mine. (My first substantive post on this forum was about my confusion for the hatred of Shalladin, and my number one thought about that was that Adolin was by far the more popular character than Kaladin. Apparently multiple polls disagree with that, but you wouldn't know it by a general read!) I think this a good analysis - he definitely makes me feel this way. His supporting Kaladin in Shadesmar and his realizing Renarin could fight are two of my favorite moments in OB. He definitely does make me feel good. Sometimes, it is good to have an uncomplicated character so it's not SO angsty. His lack of angst is probably part of his popularity (but, see above for my on the intensity of that popularity.) No line crossed, and I totally get where you're coming from. I really enjoy when people like @Stormlightning are willing to come on and explain their position. (And thank you for that!) I think many people don't really care about the romance, and they see this topic as solely a romance thread, rather than what I bolded - about the state of Shallan. I also think there is (at least here) a sense of being "in" the community or "out", and I notice that posters with thousands of posts seem to shoot down the ideas of newer posters with one line answers that don't address the original post. I definitely get a feeling of, I've been here longer and so I know better. But I don't think this is unique about any community, and probably definitely all fan communities where many of the mega-fans see these as "their" books and Sanderson as "their" author. Anyways, not to excuse anyone's behavior, but there a lot of (fascinating!) fandom dynamics at play that make the atmosphere more hostile. And I don't even look on reddit and tumblr, lol (mainly because I don't know how to work them.) This! You are able to express things so well, I almost always agree with how you express things even if I'm not always agreeing with your underlying point!

I'm on a WoK re-read, and this stuff is everywhere. Subtle, but almost so prevalent is makes you feel like us readers are being trolled. I wonder why this is... Not to take this a place we don't want to go... but I wonder if it's mostly women who are like that. When I told my non-forum friend about this Adolin obsession (and sent her screenshots of some choice posts), her reaction was along the lines of, I didn't realize SA was so popular with teenage girls. (Nothing against teenage girls! But as Brandon said in that video, they do have intense sometimes disproportionate passions ) It seems like major wish fulfillment going on... like, I wish I had a man like Adolin <heart> <heart> <heart> I don't want to cheapen Adolin, I think he's a great character, but he is also a well-written Disney prince. But I guess there is a reason the princess always wants the Disney prince! ETA @mariapapadia and @DeployParachute already were addressing this while I was typing!

Sidetrack (and @PhineasGage when back may have an opinion), but do these "shipping wars" tend to end up with some people hating the book because their ship doesn't win or does everyone tend to come together in the end? Or maybe it's actually only a small fraction of readers that actually care so it become a non-issue.

This was me. In fact I sort of became an un-fan for a second. And then I listened to what @mariapapadia posted, and when he (nicely) says the Twilight romance was ridiculously unbelievable, I felt a little better. I will be incredibly impressed if this happens. On the Shalladin side, there's just so much foreshadowing, that if what we have now is all that comes of the love triangle, I can't imagine this crew being satisfied. On the Shadolin side, I feel like there is SO MUCH hate for Shalladin. (I actually only got involved on these forums in the first place after I read the books for the first time this summer, and in googling around I didn't understand the animosity towards the Kaladin/Shallan pairing, which seemed to be set up in WoR as the end game. Still don't get it the extreme hatred.) So yeah, I'm finding it hard to think only a few readers will be disappointed. But I haven't been involved in other "shipping wars" to see how they resolve themselves.... [I'm quoting @mariapapadia here since I don't know how to add a proper quote to a post I'm editing.] This is where I'm at to, and at this point, I'm just praying the bolded part is what will come to pass. Otherwise, I will likely always have serious issues with Shallan's plotline. I hope we get some more payoff (in some manner) for the Kaladin stuff as well, but I will accept that as a romantic plotline misstep if not.

Do you have a source for that? Or did you take one of his writing classes so you heard it first hand? This would be incredibly disappointing as Twilight is, well, basically a caricature of a good romance plot. Also, Sanderson definitely failed in this goal of making readers not deep down truly believe she'd be with anyone besides Adolin given the discord on the topic. I actually (like literally) use Twilight as a litmus test for whether or not a person has good taste in books. As in, if someone says they like Twilight (unless they are like... well, it's poorly written, but I still found it entertaining and kind of amusing), I don't listen to their book recommendations. This more than anything else... is really impacting how I think about Sanderson. Oh dear. If Twilight is our gold standard, no wonder I'm dissatisfied.

I think the one thing we all can agree on is that at the end, "Shallan" is still split into three personas - Shallan, Veil and Radiant. So I guess the answer to the first question hinges on whether Wit's advice is telling her to maintain that fractured personality. Note that "Wit" in Shallan's confrontation with the unmade definitely is telling her to maintain that fractured personality. If you believe "Wit" is Wit speaking into her mind, then yes, Wit thinks maintaining these separate identities is good. If you think it's Shallan twisting Wit's word, then Shallan clearly thinks maintaining this fracture is good (which is not dispositive in any way for our discussion. Shallan does not equal reliable narrator!) If you think "Wit" was the unmade or Odium or any force of evil, then the answer seems clearly no, maintaining this fracture is bad. As far as what the real Wit says, I'm inclined to believe he did not want her to maintain the fracture, and one of the main reasons why I believe that, is because Wit clearly says Shallan needs to accept pain, and it doesn't appear she has done that. (Contrast this to Dalinar, on the field in front of TC and the agony we see him go through. We certainly had no moment like that for Shallan.) I think when/if Shallan confronts her pain, it will include her stopping pushing down the painful memories (killing her mother and Kaladin killing Heleran are the big ones we see her consciously push down repeatedly in the book) and accept them explicitly. If anything, immediately after Shallan's "moment" when Adolin causes her to choose her dominant persona (or however you want to characterize it), we see her push down Radiant and Veil (she actually "stuffed them into the back part of her brain"). While she's still repressing and stuffing memories/personalities into the back part of her brain, I don't think she's accepting the pain like Wit tells her to do. So, no I don't think she's taking the correct steps (because she's remaining fractured, and I think Wit wants her to integrate), and no, I don't think she achieved what she needed and is definitely still on a journey! (Note that unlike Dalinar, Shallan has no power-up in this book. I hope her true acceptance of her pain will be accompanied by a huge "moment" for Shallan, like Dalinar's was. So, from a pure reader-enjoyment standpoint, I want to see that big Shallan moment! If this was her "healing" and all we got was... wanting to get married (when look what we got for Dalinar and Kaladin in the past) well my feminist sensibilities are incredibly offended.) As far as Adolin... even if we assume fracture = bad, we haven't seen enough to know where Adolin stands on this issue. He does say her switching into other people is bad and that he just wants to be with her (implying the actual consolidated her IMO), so in that sense he seems to support reintegration. But then when Shallan mentions he acts differently around her different personalities (refusing to be intimate with Veil), this leans towards him actually increasing the fracture by treating each personality as a different "Shallan". I'll withhold judgment on his actions until I see more. For me personally, however (and I realize this is about what I want and not what anyone else would or should want from a story), I HATE the idea of Adolin "choosing" the real Shallan (the "That's the one" moment when he grips her hand) as being Shallan's moment of healing/self-actualization. I cringe when I think that Kaladin (coping with Tien's death prior to assisting at the Tower; fighting his depression and lighteyes hatred prior to saving Elhokar) and Dalinar (alone on his knees in front of Odium before becoming Unity) had such incredible, spine-tingling moments of actualization which were so empowering, and our lead female character... relies on a man and gets married. I would find that so offensive!! I totally, totally get that. I don't think anyone (or not many of us, haha) want to see Shallan agonizing over her fractured personalities again. But... they are still there. So I guess we either accept them as OK and the issue is done or else we have to explore them more? I'm with you, though, if this was a big "moment" for Shallan, it was underwhelming (and for me as a feminist, infuriating.) [As an aside, how does one split up one post into multiple quotes? I have seen others do it, but I can't figure out how.]

I meant to respond to this. The way I read this, is that she lets Adolin choose which persona is "her" ("There, she thought. That's the one. That's the one I am."), which is the opposite of actually accepting her true self, as her true self would incorporate all of her personas. On the next page, we see Radiant and Veil as still very active parts of her internal dialogue. ("She shoved Radiant and Veil aside, and when they resisted, she stuffed them into the back part of her brain. They were not her. She was occasionally them. But they were not her.") Unless one believes that this is actually accurate and healthy (that these alternate personas are subjects to sometimes morph into but otherwise not really part of "actual" Shallan), I don't see how this can be interpreted as Adolin actually choosing the "real" Shallan; Shallan's not integrated with her personalities, so there is no "real" Shallan for Adolin to choose. I agree that Adolin very much wants to love all of Shallan, but at the moment, there is not a full Shallan for Adolin to love. (Something she is open about when she tells him she wants to be with him - that she is "Three betrotheds instead of one".) He says wants the real her, and she says, "That might be the hardest one. But I think I can do it, Adolin. With some help, maybe?" So we're back to the fact Shallan is still fractured, and the best case scenario is she's asking Adolin to help find the real her... (More likely, given what she said earlier, she's asking Adolin to help identify the Shallan persona she should be/wants to be most of the time.) Later on, in the last chapter, she says the much maligned "Without you, I fade." line, which doesn't cut against the fact that she's relying on Adolin for, I guess, her existence and feels like she can't independently support herself/her personas. Of course, the three personas are still there in her very last viewpoint, so either this is the permanent state for Shallan (can we at least agree that isn't healthy??) or she has a lot more work to do... I don't think it's at all impossible for Adolin to help her work through her issues (though I think most of this will be a struggle for Shallan to work through on her own, but Adolin is very good at being a supportive partner), but I can't see the reading that at the end of OB there is even a "real" Shallan for anyone (either Shallan herself or Adolin) to know and love.

Very well thought out! The one thing I will say, is that while Jasnah definitely seems to find marriage the equivalent to shackles, that doesn't necessarily mean she is aromantic/asexual. One can be opposed to marriage without being opposed to romance. (I know others find her to be asexual or at least not attracted to men. It's one of the things I'm looking out for in my reread of the series I'm doing now.) I agree with you about Kaladin not being a good romantic match. I do find it hilarious to consider, especially as Jasnah would school Kaladin intellectually (IMO) which he is not used to (love him, but he does think he's sooo smart ) and the prospect of them fighting side-by-side and really learning to play their powers off each other is tantalizing. (The idea of any Radiant couple who learns how to really sync their powers in battle is on my SA bucket list!) I second @FuzzyWordsmith that a counterargument on the ASK thread that has this level of in-depth analysis would be so much appreciated!

I guess I can't really see why you dislike Jasnah so much... I don't think Amaram is an easy character to defend, but here you pull out the best parts out of him and flesh out his character really well. It's not easy to see the good side (and understand) a character which is fairly despicable and who our main characters hate. I know you mentioned upthread that you find Jasnah cold and the opposite of you, but I imagine (hopefully?) that Amaram is pretty different from you as well. I guess I don't see why it is hard to find the good parts of her as well, like you did for Amaram. Or is it just that you don't understand why everyone likes her so much and you aren't a huge fan?

So much YES to this, especially how this gets characterized as a "shipping" discussion. You articulated the way I feel so much better than I have been able to. My only point of disagreement is that in the Sanderson books I have read so far (which is definitely not all!), I have not been disappointed in the romance plotlines. I have thought the romances could be better developed (often with more time, different dialogue, different timing for a declaration of "love"), but I've never felt like Sanderson pulled a bait and switch. (You mention Siri. I get that the setup is a unpleasant if broken down like you did, but it at least hung together plot wise.) Here, if this is the happy conclusion many people seem to think it is, he definitely betrayed the reader. I will personally take much less enjoyment from his books if, like you said, I can't trust that obvious foreshadowing will come to mean anything. If you are correct, and we can't trust Sanderson on how he builds romance plotlines, that makes me way less invested, as although I enjoy the magic and world building and all that, my favorite thing to read about is personal relationships (and romance is the most intimate of personal relationships.) So yes to this. But also a sad analysis.

Oh, sorry, maybe my point in writing that wasn't clear. I was trying to craft what I would consider a satisfactory "happy ever after" for Adolin and Shallan (to follow up on trying to point out the connection they do have in the book.) I don't think this could have happened in the book we have. I don't think it could have happened after WoR (mainly because of all of the Kaladin stuff), but I do think there is enough Adolin/Shallan foundation in the books that if it was shifted around there could be a solid foundation for a healthy relationship. Not at all saying the book should have had this plot, but just as a thought exercise pointing out how I would have been happy getting to a Shallan/Adolin marriage conclusion. Does this make sense at all? Oh, good catch!!

I can't answer your questions in the first bit I quoted (but would also love to see someone take them on! If Brandon is taking this route, I really would love to be behind it), but I can offer textual support for the Shallan/Adolin relationship. In thinking about this, I also see an alternate plot line where this relationship could be incredibly satisfying. For purposes of this, I am ignoring all of the Kaladin stuff and focusing just on Shallan and Adolin: They both state they are committed to making the relationship work. Both want to be set up with someone, and wanting to try in a relationship is half the battle. The initial interactions show a good camaraderie and banter, plus the fact Adolin is thrown off balance in a very refreshing way (the poop in shardplate scene is one of my favorite humor scenes in all of the three books.) Shallan is interested in things in a way Adolin hasn't seen before in girls he courts. I'm doing a WoK re-read, and I was imaging how much she would have liked the strap-cutting investigation. As a mirror, we see her actively involved in the Sadeas investigation. Adolin listens to Shallan. He expresses over-protective feelings for her post-chasms, and he seems to internalize this, such as letting her do her own thing in the Battle of Narak. He generally lets her do her thing in OB, though he is obviously protective of her (not a bad thing!) They work well together in stressful situations. Kholinar and Shadesmar are good examples of this. They seem to be a good team. Adolin wants to spend time with Shallan and introduce her to new things (spicy food, sword fighting), and she is generally receptive to this. This is a good dynamic in any relationship (involving your partner in your interests.) Note I don't think Adolin can be held responsible for Shallan fracturing into Radiant at the sword fighting. I think personally think Shallan likes feeling smarter than people; Adolin allows her to do this (even though I think he is smarter than her in many ways, and more book smart than she gives him credit for, but she definitely feels like she has the intellectual upper hand.) We see in OB that they both express more inner secrets to each other. Shallan tells Adolin about Kabsal; Adolin tells Shallan about Sadeas. I think they open up to each other appropriately, esp. given that most people don't have Shallan's, ummm, past murder issues. I can actually see a wonderful way this could have gone... Shallan could have taken Wit's advice in Kholinar, and that could have been her breaking point. Instead of seeing increased switching between personalities and reliance on that fracturing, she worked to coalesce her personalities. Adolin is Adolin and supportive as always. In the Battle of TC, Shallan speaks a truth (maybe "I am one person and I accept my past actions"?, ok that's more an oath than a truth, but I'm sure Brandon could find something) and gets her shardplate (man, I would love for a woman to be first to shardplate!), being our first Radiant to level 5. Afterwards, Adolin has his same crisis of conscious about not being a Radiant, Shallan gives a version of her "don't be silly, I love you" speech, and then they get married. I'm actually getting rather attached to this storyline! ETA: I think Shallan having a child and exploring motherhood in this option is fantastic, too. Of course, as anyone who has read this thread knows I feel... this isn't what happened. Instead a still incredibly fractured Shallan is looking to Adolin to identify her real self, and while still in explicit internal conflict with what she wants, she grasps onto Adolin (and partly because she thinks she will lose him.) So instead of making her decision from a healthy place (per my alternate universe), we get this split second decision which feels like Shallan grasping at straws. I think the big consternation on this thread is that Brandon thinks he did what you see... "solve" Shallan's fractured personality issues by making Adolin the glue which holds her together. If that's the case, it clearly was done in a way which left many people unconvinced (/extremely concerned with how that portrays a female character/character with mental health issues). (This is not even taking into account how this would make all of the page time and foreshadowing spent on Shallan/Kaladin a waste, which would be not great writing in my opinion, especially considering the consistent complaint I see about OB is that scenes were left out. Brandon should have cut all of the Shallan/Kaladin romantic stuff in WoR and OB and spent it elsewhere if it had no and very little payoff. I would have much rather read about Shallan and Adolin's relationship! Or Jasnah and Navani! Or Dalinar and Szeth! Or really anything else...) I'd love to see you, or another person who finds that Shallan's fractured personality arc was satisfactorily concluded, answer @PhineasGage's questions above. I can support the Shallan/Adolin relationship, and think it really could have been good, but I can't support how it was presented and what was presented around it (all of the Kaladin foreshadowing.)

Uttterly wild stab in the dark, but could Vorinism/the Heirocracy somehow be related to Odium? Dividing useful skills by sex seems like a handy way to inhibit a society. (There's probably a WoB or something else which completely discredits this idea though!)

So far, we see Jasnah suggest drastic action, but we don't see her act on it. The one drastic action she tries to take (killing Renarin) she couldn't follow through on. I think it remains to be seen how cold and calculating she actually is, whereas we know Mr T and Amaram will commit to horrible acts. As far as how Jasnah comes across, as someone mentioned up thread, she is a woman in a patriarchal society who is majorly bucking social constructs. She is going to be viewed in a different way than a man who is engaging in the same actions, and this will likewise cause her to naturally become defensive because she always has to defend herself. You see this with powerful women in our society today; they are characterized differently than powerful men. A woman is always told to be warmer, more sympathetic, more "womanly", "motherly", and I find it a very natural reaction to become hardened to such critique which will actually make one less warm and sympathetic. We haven't seen what Jasnah went through to get to the place she is now, but bucking expected convention is never easy.

Jasnah is confident bordering on arrogant about her intelligence. From what we’ve heard from others in the books, this does not seem unwarranted on her part. Does she need to hide this fact to make others feel better? I say it’s not a fatal character flaw, just like Adolin doesn’t need to hide the fact he is better at dueling than anyone else (he’s confident bordering on arrogant regarding his skill in that.) I also think Jasnah is a bit hot-headed and it can be easy to get under her skin in the right context; we see this in both her conversation with Kaladin and with Amaram. With Amaram she admits he got to her and she went for the lowest common denominator - calling his mother promiscuous. She knows this is bad, but she can’t help herself, so she seems to be aware of this flaw. Regarding the two specific instances you mentioned... Putting yourself in Jasnah’s shoes, she gets parachuted back into a world which has been drastically changed. She’s a princess and a powerful lighteyes, and she gets challenged by a darkeye who is essentially the leading Radiant in many people’s eyes, while she likely sees herself as the “founder” of the Radiants. (She likely has had her powers longer than anyone else, and is certainly the most skilled at her powers.) Kaladin also gets under a lot of people’s skin (Adolin, Shallan, almost every lighteyes ever); he’s incredibly assertive about his opinions and often in a caustic manner. Like Jasnah, he’s used to being obeyed. I was fine with how that interaction panned out, because they both seems to have a mutual understanding of respect at the end of it. With Shallan, Jasnah doesn’t know the character growth we’ve seen - when last she saw Shallan, she WAS Jasnah’s ward and scribe who was very defirential. Shallan doesn’t want to go back into that box (understandably), but I don’t judge Jasnah for thinking of her that way. We also see the negativity of these interactions mostly from Shallan’s perspective, and clearly she’s chafing at the suppression of her new found freedom. She did whatever she felt like in WoR, and she really liked that. Of course she’s not going to want a minder again. Jasnah isn’t perfect, and she isn’t always mature. If she didn’t have flaws, she wouldn’t be interesting! She is incredibly badass and no-nonsense. She’s brilliant, and as we saw in OB, she is not without humanity (Renarin!) I love having a strong, unapologetic female character, so I love Jasnah! ETA: I think had Jasnah killed Renarin I could see more strongly the Amaram/Mr T comparison, but in the end she’s not willing to go through will any means to justify an end. This is a huge difference between her and them.

I think breaking a spren bond will be different based on the type of spren and also based on the person we are seeing the break through. Kaladin feels different things than Shallan, and for all we know, she is suppressing any issues Pattern may be having. It would certainly fit into her overall character (suppressing painful things.) That being said, it’s definitely not overt, but I also didn’t pick up on the break in Syl and Kaladin’s bond until he couldn’t draw in stormlight on the bridge expedition. I also think Shallan is engaging in behavior which goes against her order’s ideals of admitting truths, as numerous times on the book we see her actively pushing down painful thoughts (killing her mother with Pattern and Kaladin killing Heleran, for example.) Of course, I also think something is Very Wrong with Shallan, and I interpret things through that lense, so I can’t look past the things you mention like Pattern being less chatty and barely involved in Shallan’s post-TC viewpoints.

I don't see it as Adolin vs Kaladin (and I think many people have moved away from that on here, though I know others have strong preferences one way of another.) Putting aside one's thoughts on the Shallan/Kaladin foreshadowing (a large reason why many people, myself included, think Kaladin will be the end game), the general sentiment is that it would also be quite bad for Shallan to have chosen to start a relationship with Kaladin. My concern is not that Shallan chose Adolin - he's a great guy and they have a decent relationship which I do think gets significant growth in OB, it's why she chose him. She "resolved" her fractured personality issues by choosing the version which Adolin saw/she wanted him to see, which is fundamentally unhealthy in my opinion (no one should rely on an outside person to define who they are.) Not to mention immediately after that moment, she goes back to gawking at Kaladin and then having to have an interpersonal conversation over which one to choose. This does not feel like a healthy decision (and her scene where she tells Adolin she chooses him is no better.) It's not about her choice of man, but about why she made that choice that is causing so much consternation here.

I fall somewhere between you and @PhineasGage. I think there is a big distinction between a fiction story and real life - in real life, there are many hanging “plot threads” which will never be concluded. Real life (in my belief, ha) doesn’t have a moderator shaping our actions and creating coherent plot arcs. I expect more of fiction. An author is the all-knowing creator of his characters, he knows EVERYTHING about them and has absolute power over what we, as the reader, see. I think there is an implicit promise when you read fiction that plotlines will go somewhere, and we will get some sort of conclusion. I think the sign of a bad, usually bloated, book is many extraneous storylines that don’t serve in any way the main narrative(s). So, why I wouldn’t feel as betrayed as @PhineasGage should Kaladin’s involvement in Shallan’s romantic arc go nowhere else, I would see it as a poor writing decision. No author is perfect though! Just want to note that this doesn’t necessarily mean Shallan and Kaladin have a romantic relationship - but I think there needs to be something more for me to feel it was worth the tons of page time. Just to weigh in on the discussion between @SLNC @Darvys and @straits, I think this is a hard issue. Yes, I totally agree that we do not want to stifle artistic creativity by allowing authors to only create plotlines where the characters make healthy decisions the reader population would want to emulate. But on the other hand, media and artistic portrayals definitely effect social norms. If you have enough books where the girls/women find salvation in a strong man who solves their issues, then this will become something that influences how women are seen/behave in society. So, I do think writers have some responsibility to their readers (and women in my example) in how those decisions are portrayed. I have a different touch point here than @SLNC (women agency vs mental health), but you can’t completely absolve any artist of responsibility to help shape social norms in a positive manner. (Another example is Hollywood’s lack of portrayal of people of color and trying to fit those characters into side roles, like the funny sidekick.) Just a small note, @PhineasGage if you are talking about me being offended by @Greywatch, we worked it out as they were not referring to the point I thought in the particular comment which upset me. But I do hope this isn’t perceived as an Adolin-bashing thread (though I know some people who post aren’t the hugest Adolin fans.) I see it as an “ending of Shallan’s romantic arc in OB”-bashing thread, and I think (sorry if I’m wrong) @Greywatch is on board with that, lol.

And yet in this very same interview we get this quote from Brandon below about avoiding making female characters people to be saved or lusted after. (This quote is part of a larger discourse on the issue.) And yet... at the end of OB, Shallan has been saved by a man and a huge part of their connection is because they lust after one another... it’s just sad on so many levels.

I agree this is massively worrisome - even if it is reversed in a future book, we have years with many people (including some impressionable people, like you note) thinking Shallan’s solution is a healthy solution. I think that’s dangerous, even if rectified in a later book.

I agree with all of it, and I’m realizing Shallan’s romantic arc, if it is concluded like you note, primarily bothers me for two (very different) reasons: (1) Morally/emotionally: Our lead female character, who has been built up as being on a journey of independence and self-sufficiency becoming a women who needs a man to discover her real self and prop her up. Beyond being unsatisfying, it actually makes me a little ill. In Mistborn, Vin didn’t lose herself and her identity in her marriage, so while I don’t think that romance was particularly well-written, it was not completely anti-feminist. When it comes to the fans who are totally OK with this being Shallan’s romantic conclusion, what is that saying - women should look for a man to prop them up rather than solving their problems on their own? Men should be that role for women (and it goes hand in hand with causally subjugating women because they are too “weak” to stand on their own)? The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. I knew fantasy literature had a sexism problem, and I guess this is that problem smacking me in the head. (2) Literary plotting: I’m not worked up over this one, but unlike in Mistborn where our “bad guy” was a side character who existed for one book, we are talking about uselessly involving our main character. That seems like really poor writing and character development for our main character. (Not to mention a waste of page time.) I want to think there is some bigger payoff for Kaladin around the arc (whether romantic with Shallan or not) or else it is a big writing misstep. Also, Mistborn bad guy was, well, actually bad. Not so in our case, and weird to reduce our main character to that role in the triangle. (2) I will absolutely be able to overlook. (1) I’m really not sure.

I totally get that. I’m very much a “I think the author is leading us in ‘x’ direction and this is why” type of person. (These are all fictional constructs of one person’s (incredible) imagination, so I feel like what he chooses to show us trumps all!) But I know others are more into emotional extrapolation and the like. And if I’m honest, I’m also misdirecting my feelings regarding other posts I have seen on this forum (and not responded to though I’ve debated it - I don’t tend to be confrontational) regarding how anyone concerned with Shallan’s romantic resolution is just upset that Kaladin didn’t “win” the ship. The general sentiment I see (outside of this thread) is this is a “shipping war” issue rather than a “Shallan character development” issue, which frustrates me to no end, especially since I’ve come to view being satisfied with how Shallan “resolved” her fractured personality issues in OB as deeply anti-feminist (no worries, a female character can rely on a male character to sort out her issues and that’s totally cool.) So that is what is pushing my buttons and making me extra reactive! Lol, I’m sorry to drag you into this @Stormlightning though I’m doing it anyway, but this is exactly the attitude I’m talking about. It’s not about shipping but being unsatisfied with the character development of your lead female character. (Extra reactively, check.)