Dreamstorm

Ah, got it, I thought the disengenuous was tied to people saying, sure, Adolin's not that bad, but really I just want her to end up with Kaladin. (A continuation of what you said quoted below, I'm not fancy enough to know how to properly quote this, sorry.) But I do stand by the rest of my post!

Ok, so you called my position (liking Adolin although I don't like the resolution of Shallan's romantic arc in OB) disengenuous... I will edit accordingly. But my point still stands that's it's not a disingenuous position for the reasons I stated (and which you ignored to clarify a technicality.)

I'm probably one of the people you are referring to. On an emotional level (as in - if these peeps were my friends, who would I want them to end up with), I think there are arguments for both and am fairly neutral. Frankly, I didn't realize I was kind of meh on Kaladin until I realized I like him so much more after this book (it seemed like his character was either depressed or saving to day, and as awesome as the moments were when he saved everyone, I didn't see him as really human until seeing more of his faults through other (i.e. B4) viewpoints and having him fail to save others.) From a literary perspective, however, I find it hard to believe Kaladin isn't part of Shallan's end game due to excessive amount of foreshadowing and page time spent developing a Kaladin/Shallan romantic connection. Why waste so much page space where your main character could be developing in other ways in order to have a romantic connection that goes nowhere? The consistent complaint I see about this book is that there wasn't enough page space for certain character development scenes (what people want to see more of varies, but posters have expressed various discontent over not "seeing" key moments first hand.) Spending so much page time and pulling a bait and switch on the foreshadowing isn't good writing for me, and so far what I've read of Sanderson shows a more skilled writer than that. But I could be wrong. Basically, please don't call my position on the issue "disengenuous" just because you want to put me into a certain "shipping" box. It is completely possible to dislike a romantic storyline not because of who the girl chooses, but because of why and how. As I've also said before, I would also have been unhappy if Shallan took Adolin's out and ran into Kaladin's arms in a passionate embrace. That would have also felt false to me. This is a Shallan issue, and I'm getting very frustrated that our main female fantasy character is getting diminished in the discourse into just a point of contention over which man a poster prefers. (Sorry if this sounds aggressive, but the way this topic and the opinions around it are being misinterpreted is majorly raising my feminist hackles.)

And don’t forget, Adolin refuses to be intimate with Veil. If Veil becomes the dominant aspect of Shallan’s personality split, there may not be many chances to conceive. Alethi must either be fairly infertile or have access to birth control, as all of the Alethi families I can remember off the top of my head have two children or less (I’m sure there are some which don’t align with this, but Gavilar/Navani, Dalinar/Evi, Kaladin’s parents (until Tien dies), Aladar (one), Sadeas (none) do.)

Hmmmm... I just re-read when Bridge Four left TC, and they do say those were their goals, but I don’t see it stated (or implied) they were returning. Teft does say they are lost without Kaladin, so that’s something of note. It still seems mildly off to me (I mean not a big issue like the Shallan romantic arc, but a small annoyance) because it seems to serve to set up tension and a dramatic moment with B4 returning rather than an action with a solid character foundation. Re. Skybreakers, good point re Nale being at the 5th ideal. I didn’t know about the special circumstances there! I still find that there’s too much flexibility in any Radiant oath to sweep aside the issue of Szeth’s immediate acceptance by our heros in the book though. Enough people have made reasonable points, though, so I’ll accept it! But THIS, I cannot accept, haha! I’ve decided I will trust the author that it will be resolved in, like you said, a manner which is coherent for the characters. I’ve seen enough feedback on this forum (I don’t even go on Reddit) that people are A-OK with the resolution of Shallan’s romantic arc that I’m worried Sanderson thinks it was a coherent conclusion... I will choose to live in our bubble however, hoping to be proven correct in 3 or 6 or 9 or 20 years

So, I REALLY like Adolin. I don’t want him to die. I want him to succeed. I’m indifferent on him becoming Radiant or not - I think it could be interesting either way. There are so many Adolin moments I love on all of the books. I didn’t mind him and Shallan in WoR; I thought the emotional set-up for Kaladin was better, but I could have been persuaded either way by the author. The thing that @Starla notes worries me intensely though - that Sanderson is OK with Shallan’s lack of agency and falling back on a strong, powerful man to solve her issues, and therefore this was his conclusion to her romantic arc. After all our discussion, I’m now hopeful that isn’t the case (whether or not Kaladin is the endgame - though if he’s not, I don’t understand why he was used as a side character in Shallan’s romantic arc, but that doesn’t morally offend me like the girl finding redemption in a strong worldly man rather than being able to stand on her own two feet.) We won’t know for a while, though, so I’ll reserve judgment until the next book (or two...) Btw, it also aggravates me to no end that some people think this is all about shipping. It’s not at all. It’s disppointment in how romance is used in relation to a female character’s development.

When I first looked at this ending, I laid out what character development benefits the conclusion had for Adolin, Kaladin and Shallan. Adolin I saw significant development (mainly acceptance of not being the top dog in every situation), and Kaladin some (like you mentioned in being his own happiness and also just presenting him in a “romance” context in order to set up future romances), but for Shallan... that is the real problem. Totally outside of the guy she chose, how and why she makes that choice struck me as sloppy writing and plotting - it did not hang together in a believable way. The main thing is how Shallan’s character interacted in the situation. I think it has been set up throughout OB for Shallan to have a significant amount of ongoing conflict around her fractured personality and how that led to her making an emotionally flawed marriage decision. Maybe she can work through this with Adolin? I’m skeptical based on how we’ve seen him work through her problems before (blindly accept and ignore seems to be the theme) and also skeptical based on the Kaladin set-up (not enough payoff for his character after 1.5 books of involvement.) But I’m not discounting that possibility. What I can’t get behind after all this analysis is the idea that the Shallan who made the marriage decision was acting in an emotionally healthy manner. Her decision itself was very, very flawed - maybe she can resurrect a healthy marriage from that flawed decision, but I am personally doubtful.

Yes! Things like this are why I’m becoming more convinced there is some Odium influence in Shallan’s actions by the end of the book. “Momentum” throughout this book is hinted to be of Odium (upthread as you said.) I feel like we won’t get a lot of mainstream traction for this idea (see the other thread @SLNC started were there is definitely animosity for the idea) because people will see it as coming from “shipping wars” posters, but it’s really lining up in many ways to what we see in the book. (People who care about the love triangle are the darkeyes of the 17th shard! Joke, joke. Ok maybe not total joke )

That is a good point (Odium would know where Wit is if he could read Shallan’s memories), but I don’t necesarily agree there was any reading of Shallan’s past interactions. She’s actually fracturing at that time (“a thousand people in a moment”), so whomever is in her mind (the Unmade immediately prior) could feasibly see that. She asks in her mind “which one is [me]?”. Conversely, if this IS the real Wit, what is the explanation that he can speak into Shallan’s mind at this moment? Or otherwise what is the rationalization that Shallan is having this conversation and with whom? For me, I saw the random Wit speaking into Shallan’s mind as a big “we have no in-world explanation” moment, and I like how this theory aligns with how we have seen Odium manipulate our other characters.

@SLNC and @Harbour building on your prior comments re the “Odium spoke to Shallan” theory, not only does she not follow the real Wit’s advice, but she does follow “Wit”’s advice by ruling her personalities, i.e. forcing her personalities to fall into line... @Greywatch I really liked your post about shipping and entrenchment on positions. Good analysis of how people react when discussing in the fandom. The only response I will say is that my disappointment is not that Shallan chose Adolin over Kaladin - yes, I don’t get why the author would drag his main protagonist into a love triangle without a major character development payoff, but that’s not the big thing - the big thing is that something seems to wrong about the conclusion of the plotline. And I do feel after it being dissected a lot on this thread, that it was intentional that I had that feeling.

Odium is not the root nor the driving force behind Shallan's issues, absolutely. But I am convinced it was not Wit speaking to her (either actually or via a delusion of hers) in the second scene above with the Unmade, and that the speaker was likely Odium (not as sure about the second prong, though, so open to other interpretations of who/what it may be.)

The nuance isn't about which "Wit" is telling her to run free versus which isn't. Both are telling her how to "manage" her franctured personalities. But they are giving her very different advice about HOW to do this. The first Wit is telling her to deal with the pain that causes her to fracture and thus come to terms with her whole self. The second "Wit" is telling her to accept the fact she is fractured and "rule" her personalities. I think we agree that "Wit" in both cases is telling her to manage her personalities. But I don't think you are looking closely enough at how he's telling her to manage them.

But this is fundamentally different advice. In the conversation with Wit, he's telling her that there is just one Shallan, she just needs to accept that she is one (even though that will cause her pain because it will make her acknowledge the painful parts of her self.) The second set of advice from "Wit" is telling her to remain fractured, because why must there be one emotion, one sensation (one passion... give into your passions...) "Wit" is telling her to command and rule her "personalities", and I think implied to use them. Which is the complete opposite of Wit (who we know to be Wit) telling her to accept that she is only one person.

It’s more than I don’t trust anyone from any order as completely espousing an ideal. Take Windrunners... many of Bridge Four have already taken the second oath and yet they still abandon Theylan City. How does that align at all with protecting those who cannot protect themselves? Pulling back to (supposedly - they don’t know the oathgate will be breached) well-defended Urithiru and letting countless citizens of TC die all because eons ago humans invaded Roshar does not seem to embody that ideal in any way or shape. More specifically to Skybreakers, I think anyone who “strictly” follows any law can twist that law for their own good, i.e. Nale killing Radiants. He “justified” that by saying he was punishing them for past crimes, but he was actually guided solely by an ulterior motive. I can’t imagine there are not other ways to twist the Skybreaker principles.

I guess I see that if you trust that Skybreakers are unfailingly loyal to who they choose to follow... I personally don’t and I have more information than our main characters on the order, so that doesn’t get me there. (Not saying that’s not Brandon’s reasoning though.) On Dalinar, I was going to say no he doesn’t, Sadeas!, but the Rift tragedy helps explain Dalinar’s blind spot in that regard.

What I didn’t notice until @SLNC put it side by side was the mention of “emotion” and “sensation” (passion!) and making the other personalities “bow”, which has a negative connotation. On a completely different note, I’m now 100% convinced Kaladin and Shallan is the end game. I’m doing a complete re-read and in Shallan’s first chapter in WoK, Captain Tozbek says: Am I crazy to think this is foreshadowing?? (Maybe crazy.)

Ahhhh this is great and also solves one of the jarring things in OB (since when can Wit speak into someone’s mind?!?) Now if someone can also explain two of the things which people have noted and that also bother me... the complete acceptance of Szeth (our big bad just a book before!) with no discussion and Bridge Four abandoning Dalinar in Theylan City...

For whatever reason, I’m thinking Syl will have a leading role in helping Shallan find healing. I need to re-read, but I remember thinking they were forming a bond in Shadesmar (including Syl wanting to go with Shallan when they split up in Celebrant. Syl is very pro-Shallan in this book in general.) Syl is becoming increasingly adept at emotional empathy; her comfort of Kaladin when he couldn’t say the fourth oath was very touching. Syl also notes she likes Pattern (which she says is strange given he’s a Cryptic.)

I’m of the opinion that her bond with Pattern is very close to fully breaking at the end of OB. They used to talk all the time about everything, yet she interacts very little with him in part 4 and 5 and he seems almost catatonic at times. After her big moment of choosing Adolin through the end of the book, we have one line from Pattern (“This is a good you Shallan”) in the last chapter. We have an extended scene about Shallan’s supposedly ecstatic thoughts on getting married and her brothers’ return and we get one line from Pattern (emphasizing her fractured nature)? He used be a very chatty, curious spren. I’m of the opinion their bond is very, very frayed due to Shallan not being honest with herself...

Navani also wasn’t the catalyst for the end of the Dalinar/Evi marriage, so I like this symmetry as we won’t have to read too much more of the “triangle” part. I’m very much hoping Kaladin does his own thing, and Shallan(/Dalinar) can cause the destruction of her own marriage. Oh, I also am fervently hoping Adolin doesn’t die. I would also be extremely disappointed if the reason for his death is even partly to break up his relationship with Shallan...

I highly doubt he can change big plot points since it's all outlined (and I think Shallan getting divorced or not would be something essential to her character development and unable to be changed?), but I think he would process feedback on how those plot points are presented? The general sense here is not that the destination was the problem, but instead the journey On another note, when I finished the book I felt insane about how let down I felt and like I was wayyyyy too attached to the romance subplot. Being able to process that on this forum has been very helpful, especially since I know I'm not alone! It's helping me appreciate all the good things about the book.

I thought it was very interesting that during the Amaram fight, Kaladin refers to the shardblade as "Helaran's sword".

This WoB makes me worry this is exactly what Brandon thinks.... however, as @Harbour points out, it could be the opposite (Adolin is the conflict not Kaladin.) I have read only about half of the Cosmere books (the rest will come once I get over OB!), but unfortunately I feel like what I've seen so far (Mistborn era 1...) does not show a lot of nuance in the romance department... (Note I liked Vin/Elend together, I just thought the emotions behind their relationship could have been better developed.) THIS. I like Adolin and Shallan together. I think her and Kaladin have more potential, but I went into OB with an open mind between the two. I left... just hating the whole storyline and putting it on my (unfortunately long) failed love triangle list.

Part of me definitely thinks that Sanderson feels like he did that... and that it was so poorly done such that some of us just wish it wasn't the case.

Why do you think that? I had the impression from Adolin's monologue there was more than just the one. (Changed from speech to monologue. He thinks this to himself I believe.) @SLNC ha, you're faster than me. I was still searching trying to find those portions!