Telcontar

I'm back! But only for this post, I just don't feel very much like studying right now... Not sure to post it here or in your ongoing new theory or in your vessel-theory. Anyway, you'll find it here, I'm sure of it. Jasnah shatters a smokestone while Soulcasting the boulder, she shatters another smokestone when attacking the burglars. About her Soulcasting at a distance. I believe that a Soulcaster has to touch an object in the physical realm in order to find the corresponding cognitive aspect in Shadesmar. That's why the goblet's cognitive aspect (CA) ie the bead, was found in Shallan's hand. If you wouldn't touch the object in the physical realm, you would have to search for the CA in an ocean of beads. Pretty complicated, I'd say. Now. What about people. When you actually acces Shadesmar via symbolhead, you appear as yourself over there. However there is no sign of other people. It has been theorized that the flames we've seen in Shadesmar are people. Or to be more accurate, the flames are the cognitive representation of people. But if this is true doesn't really matter. All that I'm trying to say is that people might not have a bead. This is because people are sentient, their CA is much bigger than the CA of a goblet. Or at least, one couldn't say that there is an isolated CA but one linked with a spiritual aspect, the soul of the person. So, if you'd want to Soulcast a person into an Essence, you would not look out for a bead but something different, for the sake of simplicity I will use the flame. While there is a whole ocean of beads, there is not barely that much flames. So it would be much easier to find those without touching people in the physical realm. What Jasnah would then appear like this: eliminate two of the present flames in the usual Soulcasting-way. Then Soulcast the remaining two flames. The realmatic explanation: A Binding can be done in the physical or the cognitive realm. Gravity-Bindings and Pressure-Bindings (ie the Lashings) take place in the physical realm. Szeth and Kaladin infuse objects/subjects with Stormlight, manipulating the gravitational force, which is physical. I know that the author of the WoK Ars Arcanum talks about the spiritual link, but I'd say that even in the Cosmere, gravity is a physical thing. Btw, that author does not need to have an academic degree in physics... A Soulcasting takes place in the cognitive realm, obviously. What a Soulcaster does is creating a link between the CA of the gem and the CA of the object/subject you want to Transform. This link/Binding will permit Stormlight to pass from the gem to the object/subject. Everything in the cosmere has a CA. So gems have one. The CA of a rosharian gem is special in that it is linked with an Essence. So when the Soulcaster Binds the gem to the object/subject, the CA of the gem determines the outcome of the Casting because the Stormlight is filtered through the CA of the gem when it comes from the physical realm to Shadesmar. Back to the origin of the discussion, "gems break when they get cold". Bindings that take place in the physical realm don't need a gem directly. Kaladin and Szeth withdraw the Stormlight. That is because the Stormlight is already in the physical realm, and you need a way to get it into stuff. That's why it has to pass through a person. If you Soulcast something, you Bind the gem to a CA. The Stormlight is used directly out of the gem, causing the gem to get cold.

yeah, just to RUIN his plans

When I read AoL and Wax was thinking about the kidnapped ladies, they came to the conclusion that the ladies were probably kidnapped to breed Allomancers. My first thought however was to get these ladies to steal their powers, as we've seen with the Inquisitors searching for Allomancers and steal their powers. Think about it. When you have some Allomancers, some of them won't be of any use, others might oppose themselves to be used. And it would take much longer to use them, as they have to grow up before anything else. So just wait, find out if they have powers, steal them and make yourself powerful.

Thank you! That part of Vin's sister had escaped my attention appearently. I had forgotten the other part about spiking the thug to get to Spook.

I have a question for you experts of the mistborn-trilogy and AoL. (Does this sound insulting for a native-speaker? I'm not sure...) It is said that Hemalurgy steals abilities from people, giving them to others. So a spike always has to get charged, before it can be of use, right? Was Vin's earring charged? It's been a while since I've read the books, so I honestly don't remember. It must have been, since she's better with detecting Allomancy when wearing the ring. IIRC Spook got spiked with a broken sword which had been directed to the right place by Ruin (?). But that spike made him a Thug, didn't it? So it too, must've been charged before. Which is unlikely, since, being used as a sword, the sword (as a spike) would have lost all it's power in the process. But if both (the ring and the sword-part) had not been charged, how could they grant powers? Plus, when Vin is taking her earring off, the ring should continue to lose Power. Also. What about Wax's earring? Or any earring the members of that church use? Hope you can enlighten me.

Does the gem get cold? Do you have any proof for that? (either of you ) I only recall the objects/subjects in which you put Stormlight getting cold. The stone Szeth Lashes lots of times, his clothes, Kaladin's shield. Dalinar when he is healed, Shallan when Soulcasting. I'd associate the cold with the use of Stormlight, not with the mere storage in gems. Of course, as you say in your vessel-theory, Odium, Soulcasting may use the gem directly, so that could indicate why it breaks. Still, gems in Shardplate break when the Plate is over-used. But there also, gems might be used directly.

Also, assuming that Roshar is a round world, the sky is pretty much everywhere (and not just above). It's hard to Lash something to something different that's everywhere, I'd say. Flying. I would say that the flying ability is the jumping we see in Dalinar's first vision. To normal people that looks like flying. I see Stormriding/Stormsurfing/Windrunning as Lashing half your weight up, making yourself weightless, then flying with the wind during Highstorms. Mabye using your Pressure-Surge to not get beaten up. Which would make the ability as something "on their own".

I'd always thought of the Highstorm as a sort of transportation of the Power of Creation/Stormlight/Honor's power. Highstorm are always the same, they come from the same point, called the Origin in-world. As Stormlight is essential to Surgebinding (which probably is Honor's magic system), he had to find a way so that Surgebinders could have Stormlight at hand, when they needed it. This had to come regularly. A Storm that comes regularly works pretty well appearently. And the Storm is only that powerful because it has to go all over Roshar. It weakens more and more, the further it gets. My guess is some manifestation of Honor (a Shardpool or something alike) at the Origin, which is transported by the Highstorms. I don't believe the Storm (ie rain and wind) are part of a Shard. Also, we know from Kaladin's POV when he is tied to the roof, that Stormlight only comes at one point of the Storm, charging the sphere and passing through Kaladin. Anyway, pretty good idea for a newcomer!

Yeah, that's what Brandon said. I wrote a theory on this: About the nature of spren

the symbolhead-discussion starts not in the OP but later with post #17. Basically I am saying that Shallan needed to tell a truth so that her personal smybolhead can bond with her. BUT that bond would not be the Nahel bond. Sorry if I don't explain everything here, it just took me very long posts to explain my theories. your first question. Odium's Shard has opened a topic about this. His "vessel-theory" on General Theories. So far it's the best explanation I've seen. your second question. it's theology. Theology by definition does not need to be logical. as to your quote, there is a huge thread about focuses on Roshar on General Theories. Also, I'm with CrazyRioter that Brandon's answer could mean anything...

I see now. My theory is obviously flawed as I have completely forgotten about the realmatic implications of iron-shaped cakes. I'll try to put things together. Okay, this may not save my theory but ardents who - through years of practice and thorough research concerning the complements of a cake known as "waffle" (brought to them by Hoid from Scadrial, of course) - are able to Soulcast stuff into waffles are secretely known as Wafflemasters and lead their respective devotary. About spren then. As we know that everything has a spren, these Soulcasted waffles have a cognitive aspect, which is freed in the process of consuming these delicious wonders. However, there has not been any waffle-spren yet. I esteem that even Axis has not heard of them yet. And that is solely because noone has yet eaten a waffle outside during a Highstorm, permitting the cognitive aspect of the waffle to become waffle-spren.

wow, you noticed my absence? I'm pretty occupied with preparations for some very important exams, that's why I'm not that active anymore. To really appreciate yours and Windrunner's work I'd have to spend way too much time here This topic is one I'm already pretty familiar with, so it does not take that much time to respond. I'll be back eventually. (Yeah, that's a threat ) Then why does Szeth think of himself as a Surgebinder, given his obvious knowledge about what he's doing? Okay I may be interpretating that, but he definitely implies that he is not a Voidbinder. When you say that he is given the same surges but granted in a different way, you say yourself that Szeth is Surgebinding, only that his powers come from another source. Let's make the connection with Inquisitors. They used Allomancy (and Feruchemy IIRC) but were granted these powers by Hemalurgy. Still they became Allomancers, they did what an Allomancer did. So even if they were granted their powers in a different way, they still used Allomancy. Szeth uses Stormlight in the same way as Kaladin does. Kaladin is Surgebinding. So maybe you're right, and Szeth is granted his powers in a different way, he is still Surgebinding. It's in my Ars Arcanum-post under the "body-focus" point. I'm trying to say that the body focus cannot be used as a clue in order to determine what order a Surgebinder is going to end up in. Odium's Shard came up with a different approach as to why the body focus could be important in that same thread. Also about Shallan accessing her powers. I don't know whether you have noticed my opinion about symbolheads, see the link in my signature. One of my favorite arguments in this forums yet

EDIT: I found this quote. yeah, not the best quote, it could either mean "not all types of spren bonded in general" or "not all types of spren bonded to Radiants" But I don't believe every spren could bond, but merely those who are Splinters.

yet another thread discussing the same stuff, as you say. no offense intended, I'm good at picking up stuff that has been discussed over and over again. I must step in here. Szeth is a Surgebinder. That's pretty sure. I'll remind you of the original BS-quote, found in the Interview Database. The only thing BS is saying is that Szeth is not in an order of KR. Szeth uses the same powerset. the SURGES. He performs Lashings, which are types of Surgebinding (Ars Arcanum). Again: not all Surgebinders are Knights Radiant.. I could explain this using a whole bunch of quotes, but do I really need to? There was a mistake in the first editions of tWoK, Learned/Giving belongs to order nr.5, just/confident is associated with order nr.2. The discussion regarding Jasnah has taken place in here. That's also where I explained why Jasnah is in nr.5. It is greater consensus that Shallan is of order nr.6, as you say. From what I've seen there isn't really anyone out there who questions that conclusion. I posted an interpretation of the Ars Arcanum and how to read it here My main intention in that initial post was to determine how to determine KR-orders for Surgebinders. I personally don't believe that the body focus plays a role in determining one's order.

I'd like to point out that my idea was pure speculation, far from anything I'd consider a theory. Just a possible application of the original theory. So before we get too much off-topic, let's just start another parshmen-thread to discuss how one could make them like they are. But as I'm not a very good example myself... Maybe it was not humans but Odium who punished the Parshendi for taking sides with Honor during Desolations. As a Shard it should be possible to affect beings like this. Again, just rambling.

ok, thank you, I get your idea now. My problem was that I don't even consider the possibility that Jasnah may be right in her conclusion that parshmen are the Voidbringers. But you bring up an interesting point. If humans are indeed responsible for Parshendi becoming parshmen by blowing away their spirit, then that is a nice version of enslavement. Also, that would explain how every parshmen on Roshar can become wild at once. Because their spirit will be restored in some way. intriguing

If that's true, I have not noticed that part. could you back that up? it would surely be interesting. My belief is that they are indeed the natives of Roshar (at least the Parshendi) as they seem more adapted to a Highstorm-determined life with their body-carapace.

More ideas for you Odium. (Yeeha ) I'll let you fit them in with you theory as you clearly are more into this topic. Let's start with Navani. "The cut and type of a gemstone determines what kind of spren can be attracted to it and imprisoned in it." Why does the type of the gemstone matter? Brandon has referred to the molecular structure before (with metals). Here it is the molecular structure of the gem that matters. Now: in Allomancy it is the molecular structure that determines how the Power is filtered through your body. So the molecular structure of a gemstone would also determine how the Power is filtered. Only that the Power is not in your body (as with Allomancy) and your Bond(or sDNA) can't determine the outlet of the Power. Anyway, I would propose to speak from now on of the molecular structure of the gem being responsbile for different effects, because after all, the colour of the gem is determined of the molecular structure itself. The cut of the gemstone. Clearly, for Surgebinding, the cut does not matter, one can use Stormlight captured in raw stones, spheres or cut stones. Also I have thought about how you capture a spren in a stone. I originally thought that by cutting a stone, you would automatically have a spren inside. That's obviously wrong, like I could see after one look at Navani's notebook. So you actually capture a spren. Which is interesting because spren are not really physical and should be able to flee easily. Then we have: Patterns of stormlight filtered through the fabrial determine the power of the gem. this seems to go in the direction of the 'bending through a prism'-idea, which I admit I brougt up myself but didn't really believe in. Another question, not related to Navani a gemstone should have a cognitive aspect itself. could this play a role? I try to summarize to see if I understood what you're saying: the cognitive aspect of the object you are going to Transform is drawing itself from the gem. At this level the Stormlight is filtered through the molecular structure of the gem, permitting only to produce certain effects. the basic effect, the Essence is the easiest product, because it is directly related to the type of gemstone. I would think that one stone has limited effects, permitting only to create stuff related to the Essence. So instead of blood you could Cast any liquid. To Cast more complex stuff, one would need diferent stones. A human who is withdrawing Stormlight from a stone is really withdrawing the Stormlight. It is liberated during the brief moment outside the gemstone and the human. So it is not filtered anymore. That's why you'd need to filter it yourself through your thoughts. I have a feeling that we are still missing something important though

A related thought. If sentience comes indeed from the combination of enough cognitive aspect and spirit. I wondered if parshmen aren't something like 'super-drabs' The only time where they show a sign of sentience is when you touch their dead fellows. they don't care about themselves, would just stand around until someone tells them what to do. It's like they lack anything that makes them 'human'. And what makes beings human is the soul ie the spirit. Parshendi would be the same with a lot of spirit, making them super-guys. Random speculation without foundation (sometimes I like to do that ) When creating humans Honor first tried out the natives he found on Roshar: parshmen. He gave them a tiny amount of spirit, but that didn't work as he wanted. Maybe Odium interfered, unimportant. Parshendi are those where Honor did a good job. Because Honor sucked with making parshmen sentient, he created humans. There was mention that people on Scadrial had been there before Preservation came to give them sentience. Something along this idea.

Yes, I think someone could 'fake' his way into becoming a Surgebinder. Szeth could be an indication to that. There is that difference between Surgebinders and Knights Radiants. It could still be possible, that acting according to the ten Ideals is not the only way to bind a spren. We also don't know if the honorable interpretation of the attribute is the only one that attracts spren. Protecting: you can protect one person at all cost (bodyguard) and causing a lot of damage in the process. Or you can be very creative in inventing different forms of torture. Just random thoughts. What made the KR special is the honorable interpretation of the Ideal: I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. There is also the quote fron Nohadon that Alakavish, a Surgebinder did bad things, and not all spren were as discerning as honorspren. I say that Surgebinding does not necessarily come along with being a good guy. It's like you could do very bad things using Preservation. Shalland ending up with a truthspren: it is my belief (even if I may be the only one to support it) that symbolheads are not responsible for Shallan's Surgebinding. they are in fact what I have called 'Guardians' of Shadesmar. that term may be misleading, I admit. I believe their function is to permit people access to Shadesmar. the bonding just makes the symbolhead follow you, so that you have always one at hand, when you need one. The telling of the truth would then be needed so that the symbolhead may recognize your cognitive aspect (or something like that). About Surgebinding returning. We would have to know when the Recreance took place. We've seen in Mistborn that a Shard's power regenerates (every 1024 years), maybe something like this happened. We don't know, this is pure speculation. The speaking of the Oath... There is a theory which treats this exact problem. 'An Amendment' I haven't really thought about it yet. The only thing I found very intriguing is that just before Kaladin spoke his Oath, there was someone speaking in capitals to him (THE WORDS). The only other time we have someone speaking in capitals to someone is during Kaladin's dream. Whoever that is would probably give us clues about where the words came from. I believe Syl appeared because she didn't want to go back to being dumb. If Kaladin had stopped acting like a protector, she probably would have broken the Bond. But she doesn't want to. So she tries to keep Kaladin being a protector. and I don't see the symbolheads as spren responsible for Shallan's abilities, so... Hope I was clear. And I'd really like to read that interview with a possible answer about 'truthspren'.

About your first thougts: I invite you to read my spren-theory which I posted on General Theories: "Theory: the nature of spren". I have come to very similar conclusions to yours. About Shallan and truth. Shallan my very well care aout being honest and truthful. If you support the idea that her Primary Investiture (the process by which a human gains magical abilities) may be caused by acting according to a secondary attribute, then, yeah, could be. About the only one sphere-thing. I believe the bigger truth had to be told to get the bond between Shallan and her symbolhead in place. The problem with only having one sphere in Shadesmar is that your power in Shadesmar is related to how much Stormlight you bring. If you have but one sphere, you'll probably get yourself killed.

Yeah, you probably now that I'm one of those guys you mention What you are missing, in my opinion, is that spren are not attracted by the defining attributes of a person but by actions If it were only your attributes, and if Kaladin has always been a protective person (that's what you say, isn't it?) then why did Syl only arrive when he started ACTING as a protector by saving the young Tien-ressembling recruits. It's all about actions. That's one of my problems with that truthspren-interpretation. Because one may be honest, but you would have to act honestly. I don't believe that's the same as never speaking a lie. I don't know if you've followed this thread. That's where I try to explain why spren are only attracted by actions in accordance with the primary attribute, which happens to be the Heraldic ideal after which the order is formed. So I refuse the idea that the spren responsible for the Primary Investiture (the Bond ('Nahel Bond') which grants you abilities.) could be attracted by actions according to a secondary attribute. Still, you're right about saying that one sole action would not be sufficient to attract a spren. It is, of course, the repeated actions. Btw, spren can only be attracted by actions and not by the attributes themselves, otherwise one would say that they could read your mind. And I don't think that's possible. If they could, why would the symbolhead want Shallan to tell a truth? Anyway, we've had the discussion over on that other thread, you can read my opinion and my arguments over there. Syl doesn't leave because she is already bonded to Kaladin. Remember that Kaladin escaped like ten times in eight months, always trying to save his co-slaves? That's protecting in a way. Syl manifested herself when Kaladin had finally given up (after eight months of trying) to struggle against his situation. About Dalinar. We'll have to analyse how he acted to know in which order he will end up. The problem is, he would fit into more than one category. The reason why he came to the SP in the first place was to protect Elhokar. He manipulated other Highprinces in order to protect Elhokar as a king and as his nephew. He protected a whole company of bridgemen by trading his Shardblade. He protected Elhokar from the chasmfiend. Did anyone else ever consider that maybe Dalinar could become a Windrunner himself? The fact that Kaladin is going to be one does not necessarily exclude Dalinar becoming one. In the Dalinar chapters you will often find Jezrien-heads in the archway, pointing to that conclusion. However, later there is also Nalan who appears often. We've seen with Kaladin that there can be a change in the Herald-heads associated with a character. The surgeon-Kaladin was always accompanied with Vedeledev-heads (loving-healing). The squadleader-Kaladin is accompanied with Talenelat-heads (dependable-ressourceful). It's only in his Windrunner-chapters, that Jezrien appears. So: Nalan (just/confident). Dalinar would need to have acted just. "Never demand something of your men that you wouldn't do in their place". Following the Codes is just. Also trading a Shardblade for the lives of that much bridgemen coud be seen as just. then there is the Herald-heads of course. third order: Brave/obedient. Not much clues there. You could say that he is brave in combat, but he did not fight often before his alliance with Sadeas. It's probably not brave. Seventh order: Wise/careful: is following the Codes and showing it openly, enforcing them in his camp wise? certainly, those are the most honorable soldiers of the army. Those who are the most likely to be prepared for the Everstorm. Eight order: Resolute/builder: enforcing the Codes certainly is resolute. He also sticks with his decision to protect Elhokar, no matter what it takes. This is the favorite choice for many of you, so I won't say more. Ninth order: Dependable/ressourceful: he keeps his word. especially about saving the bridgemen. Again: it's not Dalinar's inner thoughts that will attract his spren, but his actions. If we assume that Dalinar has already attracted a spren, then his actions must have taken place for some months back. I'm going for Just or Protecting.

that is what I said, actually. Syl taps into Kaladin's mind to increase her cognitive aspect, thus gaining more and more personality. But we have seen a full Nahel Bond. Remember when Nohadon spoke about the Nahel Bond? When that vision of Dalinar's took place, there were no KRs yet. So no Bond with 5 oaths. However, if you say that we have not seen a fully enhanced Nahel Bond, yes, you're right. I'd say that speaking the Oaths gives you a greater access to the Power, you increase your spirit level to over 100. This grants you that much more magical abilities. Remember the description of Radiants? Their eyes glowing, being almost white. That's because they are so full of spirit.

ok. now that I've done my first big realmatic work, I will be able to contribute to your theory. I will base my thoughts upon my understanding of Surgebinding as laid out in my "about the nature of spren"-post. firstly, I think that once you have the spirit level required for Surgebinding, there won't be a need for another check to verify if you can actually do what you want to do. The Primary Investiture defines what you will be able to do as a Secondary Investiture. I believe that your higher level of spirit allows you to manipulate the Power yourself. You are a tiny Shard in some way. I found one interesting thing about Gravity-Lashings. When you perform that Binding, you are (first revoking then) imitating the spiritual link of an object/subject/yourself. In other words: you use the Stormlight (which is spirit) to manipulate a spiritual link. Now, this could mean that every one of the Surges has a spiritual element which can be manipulated. It could mean something completely different. We'll have to RAFO in later books. But this convinces me further that magic is manipulation of the Power, of spirit. Either by your or my defnition of Investiture. (Movement of Power from the spiritual to the physical or transfer of power from subject to subject/object) Your theory makes sense as to why Jasnah doesn't glow. However, what you'll still need to explain is WHY Kaladin needs to become a vessel himself while Soulcasters don't. (Yeah, there sure are people who don't want to know. But I do ) I don't have an explanation yet which convinces me, so I'll just give you my thoughts, maybe you can figure out a better idea. Kaladin infuses objects directly with Stormlight, making these objects vessels themselves. As long as those vessels contain Stormlight, their spiritual Gravity-link is changed. I think, Soulcasting may be different because one has to interact with the cognitive aspct of the object. You see, if you infuse something, you just do it, if the object's cognitive aspect wants it or not. But if you want it to change, you'd need the participation of the cognitive aspect. So maybe the cognitive aspect needs to pick the Stormlight up itself. By going to Shadesmar you are able to interact with the cognitive aspect and you can give the Stormlight directly to it (without making yourself a vessel). Depending on the type of gem the Stormlight will interact with the cognitive aspect in some way, changing into one of the Essences. (Also, just to prevent questions: there is no spren forming because the cognitive aspect is still bound to its object. spren only form from 'liberated' cognitive aspects.) This still does not explain why a specific gem needs to be used in order to produce a specific Essence. Hope this helps

hey, thanks for the cookie. Sorry I didn't see this earlier, I spent most of my time formulating strange ideas about tWoK. I'm german, but I have only read the Mistborn trilogy in german, for all the others I did not want to wait for the translation, or the translated book would be way too expensive (you see, they split TWoK in two parts, each one costing about 25€, which is about 30$, depending of the currency rate, of course.) So I prefered to get my english paperback copy of tWoK for 6 euros instead.