Telcontar

ok. then your premise is, that there has to be a spiritual aspect in everything? Might be. But if everything has a spiritual aspect (which I think unlikely, as to the special status of humans, having a soul) then the spirit-level of anything not human is very very low. As the others have said, I think that the spirit level of Nalthisians is just lowered to a very low level. About drabs. Windrunner already pointed out, that drabs are (possibly) similar to people having lost their spirit by Hemalurgy. I'd like to point out similarities with Feruchemy. You see, there is at least four metals which allow you to store spirit: - chromium stores fortune - nicrosil stores Investiture - aluminium stores identity - duralumin stores connection From the AoL Ars Arcanum we know that at least identity and connection are spiritual. Now, when you are storing duralumin, it reduces "other people's awareness and friendship" with you. This sounds to me a lot like drabs. You can't sense them like you can people with Breath. So, to use the terms of the HoA annotation (chapter 49 part 2) I already mentioned, I suppose people with at least one Breath have a spirit level of around 50% (which is appearently enough for mistings). The more Breath you gain, the more you approach a level of 100% or maybe more. If you give your Breath away, it will lower you spirit level to something like 10%. Leaving you sentient but much less than any person with Breath.

one would think that, indeed. One would also think that a stone does not have a cognitive aspect. Yet in the Cosmere it does. I see a difference between the notions of sentience and intellect. This is mostly based upon the christian idea that the soul is what makes us human. (I can only guess, of course, that Brandon may be influenced by such ideas) In the cosmere that is the spirit which only made humans sentient, distinguishing them from animals etc. I do not really get why you think Power is necessary, could you please rephrase that?

This is going to be a huge post, I fear. I was already doing some research about Investiture in general, Investiture on Roshar, spren and Stormlight. Then I stumbled about this quote and I realized that I HAD to understand spren. I can't be sure that I do now, of course, but I think I have found a reasonable explanation about their nature. Again: I'm aware that probably most of what I am going to say has already been discussed, mentioned or discarded somewhere in these >30.000 posts. If you have a problem with that, I invite you to read the epilogue of tWoK, especially Wit's thoughts about what men value most. Like everything posted on these forums, ideas are based on some premises. The lack of one will completely undermine everything I say, that's sure. That's the premises I base my explanation upon: I will be open to discuss these with you, if you feel the need. Still, I think that I will give you enough to discuss anyway. 1 – The energy used in every magic system is basically the same: the power of creation (herafter referred to as 'Power'). Its use is influenced by the Shard who is responsible for the magic system. 2 – The Power is spiritual energy. It can manifest in solid, liquid or gaseous form, though. 2 – An Investiture is a transfer of the power of creation from subject to subject or from subject to object. 3 – There are two forms of Investiture: primary Investiture is the transfer of Power from a Shard to subject or object. Secondary Investitures are transfers from human to subject or object. 4 – For the sake of argumentation I will only refer to Honor as being the Shard involved with Surgebinding. If it's Cultivation instead, this won't change anything because of premise #1. The starting point of my argumentation is the bond between a spren and a human which gives the human access to magical abilities. I believe Nohadon called it the Nahel Bond. I will speak of the 'Bond'. (James' Bond. not funny, I know) The Bond is the best thing to give us some clues to understand spren. How the Bond works Any human living in the Cosmere needs to get invested before it can perform any magic. On Roshar people get invested because of how they act. The process of getting invested is in fact a Primary Investiture. Ie the transfer of the Power from Honor to a human. Which means that the Bond is a Primary Investiture. Primary Investiture in Allomancy is the swallowing of Lerasium. Learasium is Power in solid form. In other words, you get an amount of spiritual energy from Preservation directly. This rewrites one's spritual DNA (sDNA). In the terms of the author of the Ars Arcana, it rewrites your Spiritweb. The sDNA is thereafter transferred by genetics. In AonDor, Primary Investiture would be the Shaod. The Shaod being some surge of Dor coming upon you. The Dor is, of course, nothing else than the Power (premise #1). So you are invested with the Power, with spiritual energy. You even receive that much Power, that you start to glow and heal quickly. So somehow, through the Bond, Power is transferred from Honor to bondee. The bondee is a human of course. Humans have three parts: body, mind and spirit. In the cosmere however, spirit is nothing else than Power: Power is spiritual energy AonRao is the Aon for Spirit. If used, the Aon releases a burst of energy or 'power'. Also, the huge AonRao which is Elantris and the four outer cities, makes the Aons much more powerful. I say that the spiritual part of a human (the soul) is made from the Power. I also say, that humans in the Cosmere, in order to gain sentience, and become human, absolutely need to have a soul. That's why Preservation needed to put some part of his own Power (spiritual) in every human so that they could gain sentience. (This also is an Investiture, but not one sufficient for magical abilities, see below) So the human is made of his body (physical aspect), his mind (cognitive aspect) and his soul (spiritual aspect). The soul would be nothing else than some of the Power itself. From the HoA annotations to chapter 49 part 2, we know that even though every Scadrialian has a bit of Preservation in them, it is generally not enough for Allomancy. This means that you have not enough spirit. You can gain enough spirit by Lerasium, reaching the sufficient level of spirit required for magic. If you apply this to humans on Roshar, then I'd say that every human has a part of Honor in them ('creator of mankind'). This spiritual part, which is required for sentience, is not enough for Surgebinding though. That's where spren come to play their role. If you gain magical abilities through the Bond, then this means that the spren procures you enough spirit to reach the required level. A spren is able to do so, because it itself is spiritual energy. That's not new at all, I know. But. By forming the Bond the human gets the spirit he needs. The spren mingles itself with the human, becoming a part of him. While touching the human spirit, it also touches the human mind, thus gaining intelligence in return. So, in summary, as the result of the Bond, the human raises his spirit-level from like 30% to 100%. That's how he gains enough spirit, which is nothing else than the Power of creation. Because the human has a spirit-level of 100 from then on (until the Bond breaks), he will be able to perform Surgebindings. This is why Surgebinding is not genetic. About the nature of spren We'eve seen so far that Syl is spiritual energy which can gain sentience by bonding with a human and tapping into his mind. I say that this is the requirement for sentience in the Cosmere: cognitive and spiritual aspects bound together. While everything has a cognitive aspect, there is only some few things that have spiritual aspects. Humans, mainly. Which makes sentient beings. Now, a short excursion about Nightblood. Nightblood is an 'almost-sentient' object. It is made of steel. Steel has a cognitive aspect but no spirit. However, if you give enough spirit (in the form of Breath- yes, Breath is spiritual energy, a part of Endowment) to it, the mix of cognitive aspect and spirit will produce sentience. But why then does BS speak of an 'almost-sentient' object? I theorize that cognitive aspects can be big or small. While humans have very big cognitive aspects, objects have much smaller ones. The fewer life is in an object, the fewer cognitive aspect is there. That is not that hard to believe, I'd say. Now. In order to bring sentience to something with a very small cognitive aspect, you'd need to put much more spirit in it. On the other hand, humans, with a big cognitive aspect would only require a tiny amount of spirit to gain sentience. As steel or stone probably have the smallest cognitive aspects possible, even a huge amount of spirit (like 1000 Breaths) would not be enough to give them complete sentience. So they remain 'almost-sentient'. Dead people, corpses would keep their cognitive aspect, but the spirit left them (the soul is gone). But as they are super-cognitive, a single Breath is enough to awaken them. Organic things, like animals or rope need more Breath than a Lifeless but much less than Nightblood. Back to spren. If my theory is right so far, then whereever a cognitive aspect meets spirit, sentience would form. Now imagine what would happen if there is a huge storm carrying Power (Stormlight) all over the world. Yes, cognitive aspect would meet spirit. It would mingle and sentient beings would form. They would glow, because the Power glows. And because the cognitive aspects are so small, the little amount of Power coming with a Highstorm wouldn't be enough to form complete-sentient beings but would remain small things barely conscient enough to stay with whatever attracted them. This explains why there are no spren in Shinovar. So that's the nature of spren. They are cognitive aspects of things which came in contact with Stormlight forming an 'a-little-bit-sentient' being. Of course, spren can only show themselves, when the cognitive aspect is released, by destruction or change. That's why they appear when something changes (emotion, weather etc.) This would require that emotions have cognitive aspects on their own, as would music have, for example. I'm somewhat unsure about that. About honorspren I now try to figure out if honorspren are the same as normal spren or if they are something different. This quote also is useful to illustrate what I have said so far. Humans all act differently because they are sentient beings, nothing else is like that (like in: nothing else has a soul). Spren are all the same individual because they all are made from spirit. Of course there is something special in Syl and her presumed relatives. She acts not alike. But that's only because she has already formed a bond with Kaladin which made her very sentient. So she starts acting on her own, like humans. She had been bonded to a KR in the old days, when the Bond broke, she lost sentience to the low level of normal spren. She says that before the Bond she was only able to remember things for some minutes. So there was something left. Which brings me to the conclusion that she has a cognitive aspect on her own. This is the first possibility. Syl is a normal spren and any spren could Bond with a human The other possibility is that Syl is special and only spren of her type could Bond. One would think that a normal spren wouldn't have enough spirit to form a Bond, if only small cognitive aspects are bound with small amounts of spirit (Stormlight). So Syl would have much more spirit. About the Splinter-idea. This would make sense: If honorspren are Splinters of Honor, Surgebinding would be much more of his own magic system than if he only sent Highstorms every now and then. Honor would create Splinters so that they only Bond to special people, depending on how those act. (Of course this has been compromised. Maybe he wasn't accurate enough in his creation, like Vasher with his 'Destroy evil'-Command). As they are Splinters, naturally, they have a large amount of Power, ie they are large amounts of Power. Also, Brandon has said that we have seen Splinters on Roshar. The only things I can think of being Splinters apart from honorspren are Shardplate and -blade. But those are Invested objects. I don't know if there is a difference between an invested object and a Splinter, but we have this: and this: So I believe that Blade and Plate are not Splinters. So I'm going for honorspren being the Splinters we've seen on Roshar. EDIT: I found this quote. yeah, not the best quote, it could either mean "not all types of spren bonded in general" or "not all types of spren bonded to Radiants" But I don't believe every spren could bond, but merely those who are Splinters. Summary This was very long but I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just point out my conclusions. The soul as the spiritual aspect of a human is spirit which is the power of creation. Sentience is gained when cognitive aspect and spirit are joined. Spren are power of creation that has come into contact with a cognitive aspect. Stormlight is power of creation in the raw form. Honorspren are probably Splinters As to the first quote about similarities between spren and Nightblood, I think it's about gaining sentience when spirit meets cognitive aspects and about how much of either is required. The sentience part could prove useful in further Realmatic theory.

Isn't the whole point of this forum to argue about strange ideas without foundation?

just one thought. I'll eventually respond in a more constructive way later. Cold seems to be an indication of Stormlight actually being used (not only transferred). When Szeth puts much Stormlight in something the object gets cold. Kaladin puts his Stormlight into the shield to draw arrows to it. It gets cold. Dalinar is being healed by that Regrowth-woman, he feels cold. Then we have Shallan. Of course she gives the Stormlight to the cognitive aspect of the goblet. But does the Stormlight pass through her? And if yes: Would that make her a vessel or would she simply let it pass through her as a means of transfer.

This would not be the first time we argue about the meaning of terms . It's about your definition of creativity. Of course her drawings are very accurate. But the process of drawing itself is creative. You create something, even if it's an exact representation of the reality. Also she draws a sort of spren that are reffered to as Creative-spren. That doesn't prove anything of course, but I assume that creative-spren are also attracted by other women and those wouldn't be as good in drawing/painting/sculpturing as Shallan. Syl says herself that she was drawn to Kaladin because he protected the young recruits in Amaram's army. Also, we assume that Surgebinding existed before the KR came to life. I believe, that Nohadon only figured out a way of making the bond stronger. And he figured out how to restrict access to this stronger bond to those who followed his ideals. There is that quote from Brandon, I always use That's why primary-spren (like Syl) are those giving abilities in the first place. Syl being drawn to Kaladin when he protected, protecting being the primary attribute of the first order, orders being shaped after the Heralds ideals. What Nohadon did is still very mysterious. But I believe that secondary attributes will play a role in what he did. Absence of spren does not indicate the lack of a bond, if you take Szeth in account. I'd think it very very strange if we have seen Szeth in 5 or more POV, always Lashing stuff to the moon, and Brandon wouldn't give us a single mention of a spren. Szeth is Surgebinding, Brandon has only said that Szeth is not going to be a KR. Like the Surgebinders from before-Nohadon. Also Kaladin probably used Stormlight already when he was a squadleader (he was described as almost glowing) without having noticed Syl. I don't think it unlikely that a spren wouldn't show itself. Syl had appearently gained sentience from before her first talk to Kaladin. She then showed herself because he had stopped doing what attracted Syl to him. She tried to make him protect people again. If she wouldn't have had success in doing so, she probably would have broken the bond in the end. My interpretation of that was that Jasnah did not recognize the symbolheads because she herself had never SEEN them. She obviously knows what symbolheads do however. As you point out, she tells Shallan, that symbolheads are related to what Shallan does. That does not exclude (as I have mentioned earlier) that Jasnah does not use them herself. I say, Jasnah does interact with her own symbolhead (because she would have needed to bond one too) only by speech. No problem, that happens to me all the time.

Eh, I used that quote in my post before

yeah, that's why derailings are bad you got it right however, this thread was first about the importance of secondary attributes. This then discussed over the example of symbolheads, leading to a more general discussion about the nature of symbolheads. The thesis is the following: Secondary attributes don't have an impact on why anyone gets magical abilities. The Investiture happens because someone acts according to a primary attribute which are probably the same as the Herald's Ideals. What to make of the symbolheads then: Possibility nr.1: thesis is wrong, symbolheads are Shallan's primary spren. (Just made that term up: spren who are responsible for one's magical abilities) Argument: only the truth/honest-relation Possibility nr.2: symbolheads are indeed primary spren. But is her creativity that attracted them. Argument: they appear in her drawings Possibility nr.3: symbolheads are not primary spren but secondary spren, responsible for the development of a KR, making the bond more powerful or accessing more power. Argument: symbolheads demand truths and the secondary attribute of the 6th order: 'honest' would indicate a link Possibility nr.4: symbolheads are not primary spren. There are no secondary spren. Symbolheads are spren who can give a human access to Shadesmar by bonding with them. Anyone could form that bond. Soulcasters need it. Arguments: result of the aforementioned thesis that secondary attributes have no impact on gaining magical abilities. They appearently were sentient before bonding with Shallan in opposition to Syl. They seem to be around everywhere. Their unsprenly behaviour and appearance indicates that they are different from honorspren. Even if you haven't read this thread, you can probably guess that possibility nr.4 is my opinion about how things work, only by counting the arguments.

yeah, being bound to a symbolhead really sucks. you'll have to lie all the time while spending all your sparetime (being the time you won't spend swimming in an ocean of beads) searching for infused spheres... you're probably right about a special thread.

the thing is, there is three confirmed focuses: metal for the metallic arts, commands for awakening and aon for AonDor. As we have to work with what we have, they figured out common points between those focuses. I considered that the definition may be wrong, but as long as there is no better one, I'll work with this one. In addition, it covers my own idea about focuses, so I have no problem with it I believe I understood, I'll try to respond IIRC the process of burning the metal allows you to channel Preservation's power. So one could say that the shape of the metallic structure of pewter determines how Preservation's power is channeled through your body. Pewter makes the power enhance your strength, endurance and healing. Commands determine how Endowment's power is channeled into an object. I see Commands a little bit like Aons. You start with a simple one and the more complex it gets, the more difficult it is to create an effect, the more skill is required to use magic. The Aons determine how Devotion's (?) power is channeled, which effect it is going to produce. So in my own words the defintion of a focus is the following: The focus of a magic system determines in what particular way a Shard's power is channeled to produce a desired effect. One could about the process of focussing the Shard's power into producing an effect. This is of course only rambling because as you pointed out, the definition could be completely false. And because this has already been said, only in other words. About the spiritual focus. I don't like it, because it doesn't match the definition No, seriously. The shape of one's spirit, like you call it, only determines who gets power in the first place. People get Invested because of their spirit's shape (honorable). That's different even if you discard the made-up definition: in Allomancy and Feruchemy Investiture (meaning the process of getting Invested) is genetic. Your genes determine which metals you can use. In AonDor Investiture happens through the Shaod. It's makes you able to draw Aons. As to Awakening... If I understand it well enough, then if you have Breath you are Invested. But that only makes you able to speak Commands. Acting in a particular way, thus shaping you spirit only gives you magical abilities in the first place, it gets you Invested. Attracting a spren and forming a bond is only the process of Investiture as I understand it. About the triggers. Burning the metal is not the focus but metal itself. Speaking a Command is not the focus but the Command itself. Drawing an Aon is not he focus but the Aon itself. So what you call 'trigger' is the act of using the focus. Summarizing everything I've said in regard to Surgebinding. Acting in a particular way gets someone Invested. If someone is Invested he has access to two Surges. To channel the power of Honor (or Cultivation) someone needs to Bind a Surge in a particular way to produce an effect. The trigger would be the use of Stormlight: infusing objects or people, 'bribing' cognitive aspects of object.

yep. go ahead

thank you for helping out!

Actually I meant what I said. I have an (not very well-founded) idea that one could use Stormlight directly during a Highstorm. Not only because that would have potential for a pretty awesome scene later in the series but because of this: To me this is Stormlight passing through Kaladin. We have seen that use of Stormlight brings cold with it. Now, if Kaladin could breath the Light in directly instead of just letting it pass through him, that would bring an interesting twist to a fight outside during a Highstorm. A little like when Vin breathes in the mist.

One could also interpret that statement as a way of instruction. You do Soulcastings. Symbolheads are related with that. Like in "They are related to what you just did for the first time." Anyway, love your stupid joke-like sentences.

You are probably right. I have just done a quick overview of Szeth's chapters and the only time I found the identity of the stones he used was in the Prologue. Sapphires used for illumination. I don't know why, but I had a violet light in mind. My fault. But there is no proof either that they only draw stormlight from sapphire spheres. And I think it hard to believe that all Parshendi used sapphires to weave in their beards. But you're right that it isn't as obvious as I had thought it to be. What difference would it make, though? It's still the Stormlight which is used, not the stone. So for gemstones to be the focus, we would need different types of Stormlight per gemstone. I'll even come up with an explanation for that. While Stormlight itself is probably white (you'll find the quotes in the first post of my Ars Arcanum 2.0-thread on the Stormlight-Archive sub-forum) it could be bend by the stone. Much like light is bend by a prism, splitting into the whole spectrum of colour. So the gemstone would define which type of Stormlight is trapped. Then there is Navani's notebook. We know that the type and cut of gemstone determine which spren can be trapped in the stone. So there is probably something to that idea. But. I'll stick with my Bindings are the focus-theory. Because you'd need one gemstone (sapphire) for the manipulation of two Surges (gravity and pressure). You can't deny that Szeth used sapphires for Basic, Reverse and Full Lashings. Would a guy from the second order use sapphires for his one shared Surge (pressure OR gravity) or a smokestone? - If you have to use sapphires, then, as a result, you would need sapphires for Surge #3 which leads to the conclusion that any KR would only use sapphires for every Binding. - If you could use a smokestone to manipulate the same Surge (pressure OR gravity), then why could you manipulate f.ex. Pressure with sapphires and smokestones but not with any other stone? That doesn't make sense.

I don't really get with whom you're arguing (the idea just above?) Also a summary of my thesis for anyone who is not inclined to read every post we made. My idea about symbolhead still is that they don't have something do to with the Nahel-bond. So there is no problem at all for Jasnah or anybody else to get in touch with symbolheads and forming a bond with them by telling a truth. I believe the biggest problem people will have with this idea is that Shallan then will be bonded to two spren. The first being her personal 'honorspren' or Investiture-spren as I called them. This one is the spren granting her abilities to manipulate two surges by the use of Stormlight. The second bond being the bond with a symbolhead which will give her access to Shadesmar whenever she needs to go there. The secondary attribute for Shallan (honest) won't be of any importance in regard to her Investiture. (initial post of this thread) I took the point that her secondary attribute will play a role in her ascencion to a KR. Possibly her third Oath will be about honesty, the speaking of which will give her bigger power.

About Stormlight. depends on what it is exactly. Might be the power of Honor/Cultivation/Adonalsium. might also be just a fuel, like colour. If it's the power itself, then you just channel it, like you channel the power of Preservation by burning metal. It it's just the fuel, well, then it has to be omnipresently used because it's the fuel. About gems. You don't use gems for your Binding. You only use the Stormlight trapped in it. If there wouldn't be any means of trapping Stormlight, you only would be able to use Surgebinding during a Highstorm in the moment Stormlight swaps through everything on its path. The problem with gemstones is, that they don't fit the definition of focus as given by Chaos and Mad Scientist. The focus of a magic system is how you focus the power, how you determine the effect. While there is a connection with the Stormlight trappend in gemstones and the Essence which you can create by using the Light, Kaladin and Szeth obviously can use Stormlight trapped in ANY type of gemstone. And again, it's not gemstones that are used but the Stormlight trapped in it. If, however, we'll see in the future that it depends on which gemstone you use for every Binding, then I'll start to believe in gemstones being the focus of Surgebinding. For now I only see an association with gemstones and Essences (as I explained in my Ars Arcanum-analysis) yep, I would have pointed out that the Metallic Arts share the focus becaues of Ruin and Preservation completing each other. Maybe that's nonsense, I don't know. Voidbinding will be interesting. It also has ten levels, it (probably) also is about binding stuff. Which could indicate a proximity between the types of Investiture/magic systems. If the Ten Deaths are indeed creatures made of one of the Essences (thunderclasts-stone and Midnight Essence-smoke) and Voidbinding is how you summon them, this could be explained as 'Binding an Essence' to take shape and gain sentience.

This is why I believe that all KR-Investiture-spren will have to gain sentience as a result of the bond. Therefore excluding symbolheads.

wow, this gets pretty heavy. I belive your points would fit better over on General Theories. Especially that DNA and Hemalurgy-stuff. However about that quote. If you can steal a person's Preservation-soul-energy-stuff. Could you bring a dead person to life by spiking him with that spike? I only like this thought because it is so much like Awakening and gives us another similarity between magic-systems. I'm actually slowly gathering those. thanks Satsuoni for filling in with your Travel-through-stone idea. as to spren following bloodlines. If they indeed follow bloodlines (which I personally think unlikely) they could just do it because of normally a father raises his children according to his moral codes. Installing a sense of honor in his kids. Dalinar is a very good example for this. Back to Shallan and the symbolheads. I had another related thought, which supports my theory that symbolheads are not Investiture-spren. It's about bonding. While Shallan bounds a symbolhead by telling a truth, Kaladin never actively bonded with Syl. There has never been an understanding between them which made them bonded. Syl just bonded herself to Kal because of how he protected kids in Amaram's army. I think a simple telling of a truth (which can be done by anyone) not sufficient a foundation for an Investiture-bond. Looking forward to a theory about sub-conscience and cognitive aspects and Shadesmar. I'll make sure to discuss it with you. As far as I can tell this covers what I had to respond to. If I forgot something, please remind me.

You'll always be allowed to systematically deconstruct constructively. If only for the sake of that expression In order to clarify what I am saying, I'll use the word 'Surgebinding' as the name for the magic system and 'Binding' for the act of binding a Surge. I take you point about a focus being used up. Burned metal is gone, indeed. Also an Aon disappears often after having produced its effect (if not scratched into rock or metal). But you still have to actively use it. You have to determine the effect by the use you make of the fuel. The fuel of Surgebinding is Stormlight, I think you'll agree. So the question for a focus on Roshar is: how do you determine the effect of Surgebinding? it depends on which Surge you use and how you Bind it. For example: if you want to run up a wall (effect) then you have to use gravity by performing a Basic Lashing (which is a Binding), binding yourself to the wall. The wall becomes down for you, you run it up. The use of the word 'omnipresence' comes from Mad Scientist's post back on the first page of this thread. What he meant is that you always have to use the focus. Applied to Surgebinding this would only mean that you'll alwys have to perform a Binding to get the desired effect. Of course the Binding only lasts as long as Stormlight is not used up. So Bindings are not omnipresent because they are already present but because you'll always have to perform a Binding to produce an effect of Surgebinding. Again, for a better understanding of the criteria, you'll have to read the aforementioned post. He is just way better in explaining than I am. Variation of the focus 'metal' over on Scadrial is the type of metal. Variation of the focus 'Aon' is the different Aons. Variation of the Commands are lots of them. Variation of Surgebinding is the Bindings. There are only ten Surges, so you can only produce a limited amount of Bindings. So, when you say that the focus cannot be the act itself, I say, I never said that the Binding is the focus, the act is whatever it takes to perform it. The distinction is pretty small though. Performance would be: breath in Stormlight, touch object, will Stormlight into object (for Full Lashings). The focus is the Binding in the variation of a Pressure-Binding. I understand why you are struggling with the idea. Hope speaking of Binding and Surgebinding helped a little. It is the variation of the Binding which allows exclusive effects: Gravity-Binding, Pressure-Binding etc. The performance of a Gravity-Binding (Basic Lashing) and a Pressure-Binding (Full Lashing) is basically the same. You touch an object or person, you will Stormlight into it. In the case of a Gravity-Binding stuff will begin to fall to the ceiling, with a Pressure-Binding stuff will stick together. So it's not the Performance (the act) which is the variation but the Surge which you are Binding. I hope I could invalidate your major argument that the focus cannot be the act itself. But not by proving your statement wrong (it is a valid argument) but by proving that it's not what I were saying.

It has grown pretty long, you'll be forgiven for not having read our (essentially Odium's Shard and my) fantastic theories. I have not really thought about Travel through stones. As I said, it appearently was Satsuoni's idea. I only cited it because I like the logic in his posts in general. Would be interesting to know why has come up with that idea. Maybe just because the woman arrived and she probably is a Stonewarden, therefore connecting her arrival to stone... I don't know, sorry. What are Ley lines? (I'm no native speaker)

I didn't read this whole thread, but focused mostly on the first posts of Chaos and Mad Scientist. So if this has been discussed, I'm sorry for wasting your time. When I had first read the initial post I had stopped there. And when today I read Mad Scientist's ideas I thought "yeah, that's what I had come up with on my own, only explained in a much better way". That's why I'm using his criteria for my proposition of the focus on Roshar. Thanks to you, Mad Scientist. Also this is my first post over here on General Theories, please don't laugh at me too hard. My theory is quite funny, because if I'm right, then it has just been way too obvious. It's like not seeing the wood for the trees. (Not sure if this expression is the right one, in my own language it works pretty well) Focus on Roshar is the Surgebindings. Just to make myself clear. Surgebinding is how the magic system is called. But a Surgebinding also is, what the KR performed. 1. a focus is actively used in the magic system careful not to confuse the use of the focus with the use of the fuel, which gets used up. However you can't use UP a focus. Everytime Szeth or Kaladin uses magic, he performs a Surgebinding, their effects know as the Lashings (again, Ars Arcanum) Everytime Jasnah is Soulcasting, she uses the Surge of Transformation, thus performing a Surgebinding. 2. A focus is omnipresent in the magic system well, as Mad Scientist already pointed, this follows from nr.1. The focus is always used for magic. You always need to perform a Surgebinding to create a magic effect. 3. A focus has variations in it There are a lot of different Surgebindings. Lashings, Soulcasting, probably Regrowth, Travel 4. A focus variation is exclusive in its use in the magic system Each Surgebinding would need to produce an exclusive effect. Well, from what we've seen: it does. 5. A focus variant for a magic system is specific If I understand this criteria right, then it means that each focus variation is tied to one effect. I do not really see the difference with point nr.5 though. Maybe someone can help out here? Edit: saw this after posting. Question nr.52: I think this fits with: focus of Surgebinding is Surgebinding. To summarize I'll go back to my original thoughts before reading Mad Scientist: to me a focus was the means of HOW exactly you use the power of Adonalsium (because to me every Shardic power basically is the same, Adonalsium. You "channel" Adonalsium). On Roshar the power was stormlight (the fuel). So how do you determine its use? You perform a Surgebinding. Every other thing: touching, willing Stormlight into an object or person, blinking, going to Shadesmar is just what you need to do to perform the Surgebinding. Like you wouldn't say that drinking metal flakes is a focus, touching stuff is not a focus. You may now tear this into pieces.

It is funny how we agree in some things and are completely off in others The reason why I didn't put the healer and Taravangian together is because there is no need for Taravangian to have been there himself. Of course the king himself has helped out in his hidden hospital. So it might have been him. But also, it could have been a normal healer. Then there is much of what you say with which I agree. Later on, you're talking about Taravangian following the path of honesty. I have a problem in general with the use of the term honesty. Not only in this particular thread though. People only will see someone as honest, if they do interact with that person often enough to figure out that this person is honest when there is a situation one can be honest. Honest is not telling always the truth. I see it more like being sincere. Hiding a truth only makes someone dishonest when asked after the truth. So honesty needs interaction. And for that we just have not seen enough of Taravangian's interactions with people. And finally there is the thing about honesty being the secondary attribute. Those also are considered as divine. So honesty (as the attribute) would need to be interpreted as an ideal-like something. Well, I'm more babbling than saying anything here. I also agree with Taravangian not necessarily being an "evil" guy. Even if murdering all those people is not really very nice of him. But towards the end this gets funnier again Taravangian being behind Shallan's perception of symbolheads. Why did Elhokar see them then? Why didn't Shallan draw them anytime before? There is one thing about her, when she is drawing Taravangian. She doesn't pay attention to what she is drawing. That is very very unusual for her. Of course she does not need to pay attention, but she always does, drinking in the act to relax and all. When she is drawing Taravangian, her mind is completely occupied with other stuff (I don't remember exactly what, something about Jasnah having killed the street-toughs or the stealing of the Soulcaster or Kabsal telling her, he will quit being an ardent for her. All that stuff). Later she only draws symbolheads when not paying attention to her drawing. When she tries to draw them intentionally she takes a Memory, then draws without watching. It is not that hard to assume that she never drew without paying attention before. It's the first time she gets in a real internal conflict (stealing when she likes Jasnah, having to leave when she loves to study). Before her life had always been simple, everyday-routine. And when she killed her father that did not leave an internal conflict. The thing about her only drawing them when not paying attention indicates that she perceives the symbolhead through her sub-conscience, that being also where she stores her Memories. Also spren are cognitive aspects of things, Shadesmar is the cognitive realm. Maybe the cognitive aspect of a person is that sub-conscience. This needs further investigation. Anyway, that's the reason why she never saw smybolheads before. Edit: I forgot one related thought: the pre-death-quotes started about when Gavilar first explored the Shattered Plains, thus also being the time he first time he crossed the Parshendi. I always thought that the Parshendi came out of their hiding place at the SP at that particular moment (after hiding for centuries or millenaires) for a reason. If it's that they saw the Everstorm approaching, that would at least give a hint of why the pre-death-quotes started. An event announcing the Everstorm, having an impact on the coginitive or spiritual part of people.

Might be me, but I don't really get where you want to go with this. Appearently change is not what attracts "Investiture-spren" but your actions. If you go with the terminology used by zas in this post, then it's only Everyday-spren that are attracted by change. And I don't think that symbolheads can be qualified as Everyday-spren. In my opinion, and I believe that Odium's Shard does agree with me by now, it is Shallan's creativity that formed her "Investiture-bond". About honesty being honest with yourself: it seems to me that on Roshar everything is about actions. Not personal inner conflicts but what you do. Sorry if I get your post totally wrong.

two things that might help you: When the KR gave up their Blade and Plate in the Recreance vision, we see that not only the Plates glowed, but also the Blades did. However the glow fainted quickly, once the Blades were abandoned. When Amaram took the Blade Kaladin had won on the battlefield, there is a gemstone on the hilt of that Blade which flashes briefly, as if to acknowledge the new Bearer. You'll have to look for the quotes yourself, sorry.