Telcontar

As you helped developping my theory (if only by pointing out flaws), you deserve of course a proper response. I saw that you also posted it over on General theories, for my response I'd rather stay here because my response will of course be influenced by my interpretation of symbolheads. I'll use the term "Investiture-spren" to refer to the spren forming the initial bond which gives a person magical abilities. I agree with you about the sample is of particular note. My first question however was: of particular note to whom? As Taravangian is collecting the samples the obvious answer would be: to him. We don't know who is going through the samples of course, but I believe it will be Taravangian himself, as he seems to have an understanding of what is happening on Roshar. If it's some servant of his, that that one will need to have acces to Taravangian's knowledge to be able to register the samples good enough. So, if the sample is of particular note to Taravangian, then he should at least have some perception of what symbolheads and the description of Shadesmar mean. Either by having seen it himself (1) or by having found out thanks to his Palaneum (2). Appearently knowledge of Shadesmar is not restricted on Roshar, so there should be books about it. (1) If he has indeed seen symbolheads and Shadesmar himself, then there is even more to him than we thought. (2) then he was just looking out for references to Shadesmar. Further interpretation of the epigraph. I believe that the chull trainer actually was talking to the healer who was talking his blood. Then seeing a symbolhead because he was dying. In that I agree with you, Odium. The phrase "I'm dying" could be the truth permitting him to see Shadesmar. If you understood my statement the way that I said, the chull trainer attracted it, then I didn't phrase it good enough. My intention was to show that he SAW a symbolhead. Not necessarily that he attracted it. That maybe they are indeed around everywhere, like I theorized. I don't agree, but you could have guessed that before In WoK so far we have met only three people who have perceived the symbolheads in a visual way. Shallan through her Memories, the dying chull-trainer and Elhokar in the mirror. We don't know about nr.1 concerning the chull-trainer, the great knowledge part of Elhokar has to be proven. As a king he is likely to have the potential to perform great feats but for now he is a pretty weak king, whatever Dalinar says. About the secrets, again, we only know about Shallan. As to nr.3 I still don't see where Shallan followed the path of honesty. Elhokar does not appear to be known for honesty. and the chull-trainer, he proves nothing, in either way. The only other person, symbolheads have been sneaking up to, could be Taravangian. He surely fits nr.1 and 2. But not nr.3. I don't see any common base for those 3 or 4 permitting to say how we are going to find symbolheads around people. I have problems to spren being able to perceive secrets. Spren are attracted to how one acts. They are also attracted by changes which can be perceived by others. And finally they are attracted to emotions. But one also could say that even emotions get to the outside, showing in your face and posture and your smell. Do you have an example maybe proving me wrong? I'm not very learned yet in general spren-theory. When Shallan was in the hospit she saw more than one symbolspren, waiting in the corners. If a symbolhead is a spren with potential to form the "Investiture-bond" (independent of which ideal attracts it) so why are they always around, more than one? I understand the "Investiture-bond" as a bond between one single spren with a single person. The person gaining abilities, the spren gaining sentience. If we say that the symbolhead who "bonded" with Shallan at the end while confronting Jasnah is her "Investiture-spren" then why was it sentient before? Yes, she is probably the most learned person on Roshar. However, we have no confirmation that Jasnah is sought out by symbolheads. She didn't even know the symbolheads by sight. While this dialogue is pretty mysterious, I think it shows us, that Jasnah knew about symbolheads but has not seen one herself. If Jasnah is sought out by symbolheads because she is learned, AND Shallan is sought out because she is creative, then according to your theory (if I understand it right), symbolheads are "Investiture-spren" for at least two orders. I have problems with that: Either every "Investiture-spren" is honorspren like Syl, or each order has a different one. But one spren for two orders... If symbolheads are related to Surgebinding (and not just to Shadesmar as in my theory), then they have something to do with the Surge of Transformation, explaining why people from different, but adjacent orders, make use of them. I'm sorry, but you'll have to explain to me further your idea, I don't believe I really get it. IMO when you first get Invested then you already get access to two Surges. Kaladin used a Full Lashing before he spoke the second oath. I assume that you speak of the Nahel bond as being the "Investiture-bond". We agree, seemingly, that this bond forms because you attracted a spren by acting according to an ideal/primary attribute. But the whole concept of Investiture is that once you are Invested, you have acces to magic abilites. Maybe you don't know how to use them, but in theory you can tap into the magic. So access to Surges is free once the "Investiture-bond" has formed. Hope this helps to shape your idea like your comments did to shape mine. Weird though, that your post convinced me even more about symbolheads being spren who are "always around" and attracted to people who can perceive them. As explained in the beginning of this post, Taravangian obviously has an idea of symbolheads and Shadesmar. So maybe he does not see them, but it is enough, that he is looking for them to attract them. Another idea. We don't know much about what you can do in Shadesmar. But if you can use it to travel between different worlds, maybe it is also possible to Travel (capital T this time) by going to Shadesmar physically (to Soulcast your body stays in the physical realm) willing yourself to another place, then stepping out of Shadesmar. A concept very much like Travel using Tel'aran'rhiod in WoT. (Which speaks against the idea, because it's just too similar). But then, there would be other orders as well with access to Shadesmar. As mentioned above, the existence of Shadesmar is no secret on Roshar. Surely because the KR used it and the knowledge has survived until today. Shadesmar probably will have too many functions to be only means of Soulcasting. But then you'll need either symbolheads to acces Shadesmar or another way to access it. Have fun responding

I know I was wrong

Szeth and Kaladin command the Surgelight into objects or people. Soulcasting surely requires the command to Transform once you know how to do it and don't do it by accident like Shallan does with the goblet.

It's in the epigrapgh to chapter 4:

I thought about how to describe their function. Failing to find a better word I went with "guardian". My idea was more someone who acts as a gatekeeper, only opening the gates for special people. Those who may give you acces to Shadesmar. Jasnah doesn't recognize them because she has never seen them herself. I only supposed that she had read about Soulcasting in some ancient book where it was described that you needed to interact with spren to acces Shadesmar. In that book would also be written that symbolheads are always around, so they can here you when you ask for them. So while never having seen them, Jasnah interacted with them via speech. By forming that bond of course her symbolhead would then follow her. This is wild assumption of course. We probably won't know before we'll get the Jasnah-book. yep, as I said, that is as likely an explanation as mine. It sure is two persons hiding big secrets. You didn't even mention the (probably) only female Shardbearer of Roshar. Which makes those two even more secretive. But if they're attracted to secrets or anything else is not essential for my theories. It will be sad though, that we'll never find out what secret attracted the symbolhead to the dying chull-trainer. (if not the hidden hospital itself.) I wouldn't say it was their curiosity that caused them to wish to bond. We don't know if they have any decision in whether they give someone access to Shadesmar or not. If someone demands it, maybe they have to comply, the truth being but the prize required. We'll see if the symbolhead gains anything by bonding with Shallan.

I'm totally with you, Inevitable. And you express every objection I have to life being a Surge and more. Good job! I'd like to throw in another possible Surge: light. I'm absolutely no physicist but I believe light is both particles and waves. of course wikipedia could help, but I wouldn't understand it... Light is essential for the development of life on Earth, making photosynthesis possible, which is of course the production of oxygen which we need to live. The only backup though for light is Teft's comment that KR could command the sunlight. That is of course how the manipulation of a Surge would appear to normal people. Also there is those comments about "lightweaving". I think there is a quote from Brandon that says that lightweaving is going to be in the SA. Finally, I'm again referring to another brandonquote that the magic systems are basically all the same. (I was talking about time back then.) That's why I think that other magic systems can give us clues about Surgebinding. We've seen manipulation of light in Elantris with the Aon which gives light. And with the illusion Raoden creates. What are your thoughts on this?

That is almost what I have become to believe about secondary attributes. The second ideal for Kaladin is "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" There is a good chance we'll see leading in the three remaining KR-oaths. While Kaladin's issue in tWoK was to protect and save his bridgecrew, starting with the second book he will have to lead Dalinar's guard, as there is no more need to protect the bridgemen. As a leader of a thousand soldiers. Knowing Kaladin he will have problems with leadership, then accepting his role when he needs to fight of Szeth coming to kill Dalinar thus gaining the recquired power to win against Szeth who until then had the upperhand because of his skill with the Lashings.

Further evidence for symbolheads not being Shallan's ability-spren: Those only gain sentience (at least for KR) by bonding with people. Symbolheads however are already sentient when Shallan draws them for the first time. I think that is safe to assume. And if we assume that there is only one spren forming the Nahel-bond, then it's not going to be a symbolhead for Shallan. I admit that Taravangian does keep a big secret. But does it change something about what I said, whether they are attracted by secrets or by someone who is able to perceive them? I think it more likely that those guys are around everywhere, invisible. You can attract them by doing whatever it takes to attract them, that also is safe to assume. As to point 2 of my "How-Soulcasting-works"-list. You're right of course by saying that you won't need to tell a big secret everytime you want to go to Shadesmar. It's still valable for your first (and maybe second) visit there. If symbolheads are just stalking everywhere, strolling around, the bond it mentions could be a bond which makes that particular symbolhead always stay in proximity to Shallan so whenever she needs to go to Shadesmar in order to Soulcast, a symbolhead will be there. Maybe the symbolhead needs the truth about a person to be able to form a bond with that particular mind. Like an individualization. After all we don't know if they can see or how the physical world appears to them. Oh, and I like your idea about Shallan creating honest representations. It's a nice description of what she's doing. But I still think the secondary attribute irrelevant for Investiture. My formulation in the original post regarding secondary attributes certainly was quite harsh, but that's to make myself more clear. Secondary attributes will probably be needed to shape your KR-abilities. In that I acknowledge your point about Kaladin nearly always being a leader.

I probably shouldn't spend time on the 17th Shard before going to sleep. Couldn't do that last night, had to think about what I just had produced about Shallan. Also, while I should spend my time studying (in the academic way) I had to bring to paper my night's thoughts this morning. I see potential in this to deserve an own thread, but already in the past I may have overstated the potential of my thoughts and since the first post in this thread is the foundation of what I'm producing next, it fits pretty good in here. Also I expressed myself that the symbolheads represented a flaw in my reasoning. So here you get an addition to that. Shallan and the symbolheads First, let's remember how Investiture works on Roshar. It depends on how one acts. While I exposed this in post #1, I'll use Shallan as an example. If I didn't completely misunderstand something, Investiture is the process of gaining magical abilities in the cosmere. So that's how you gain abilities in the first place. It depends on how one acts. Shallan acted way more creatively than honestly. She sketched since she was young and does it all the time. And she is incredibly good at it. On the other side, it has been argued, that her hiding the truth attracted the symbolheads who then bonded to her. This cannot be how she got Invested. Because hiding a truth is not acting honestly. But you have to act in a specific way to get Invested. Also: if the theory, that Shallans Memories are a form of Surgebinding is correct, that she did that a very long time before killing her father and then hiding that fact. The lack of a spren is not evidence against it, because Syl distinguished herself from windspren very late, and for Szeth we haven't seen any spren at all. Also we have this wonderful quote from Brandonthology: So I think it likely that spren only gain sentience by a bond with Radiants. (By something Nohadon did for example) So you'll have to be beyond the ground-level of honor for a spren to show itself. => Shallan got Invested because she acts creatively. What's the symbolheads then? My theory is, that those are a sort of guardians of Shadesmar. It's those who can give you access to Shadesmar. Not only Soulcasters can go to Shadesmar, there is at least Hoid who uses it, and probably other members of the 17th Shard as well. But if others can go to Shadesmar either they also use the symbolheads or they know of another way. We'll have to RAFO. It is possible that symbolheads are not attracted by secrets: Shallan first drew the symbolhead while drawing Taravangian, we don't know anything about why it was there. Maybe the symbolhead got attracted to Shallan then, because Shallan was able to perceive it. Normally they are invisible to people, so it would just seem normal that you would be interested by someone who is able to see you, wouldn't you? That is also why the first time a symbolhead speaks to Shallan is why he asks her: "What are you?". When she later drawy more of them they are even more attracted by her. When Shallan shows Jasnah the drawing of a symbolhead, Jasnah doesn't seem to recognize them from her own experience. Because she doesn't see them herself. Jasnah probably found an old book explaining about Soulcasting and acces to Shadesmar. Which told her that she had to tell a truth. So the access to Shadesmar can very well work without having seen the symbolheads. Jasnah still recognizes them from the description in her book. => symbolheads are "portal-spren" giving you acces to Shadesmar. So we have two spren who are important to Shallan. The first being the one to give her Surgebinding, the second being the symbolhead giving her acces to Shadesmar. Based on this my theory on how Soulcasting (without the Jasnah-lightning) works: 1 - you touch an object, because if you didn't you wouldn't find its cognitive aspect in an ocean of beads. 2 - you tell the guardian of Shadesmar (symbolhead) a truth so it can get you to Shadesmar. Edit: you do that to form a bond with a symbolhead once, so it stays with you afterwards. 3 - Once there, you have the cognitive aspect of the object you were touching in your hand (of course that's problematic when Casting air to anything else) 4 - you command Stormlight into the bead you're holding, bribing it to Transform. While giving the command you need to be precise, if not, you'll just get a lake of blood. 5 - in the physical realm, the object Transforms. 6 - you get back to the physical realm I think this matches far better than symbolheads being truthspren etc. Of course if I wouldn't think this way, I wouldn't post it. But Brandons magic systems always make sense, once you understand them and to me this makes much more sense than other explanations I've read so far. I am probably far from the truth, of course.

Dalinar has won two sets of Shardplate and Blade on plateau-runs. The first he gave to Elhokar, the second, IIRC was Adolin. I'm pretty sure about the first one, because when I reread that part, I wondered about where Gavilar's stuff went.

ok, I see I have to rephrase my idea. You're right of course, that the secondary attributes are somewhat of importance. But I still believe that ONLY the primary one (which would be the ideal represented by the Herald) is the one who attracts the spren in the first place. Thus being the only one to help figure out ones order. Of course there is that Shallan/truthspren problem, no reason to point it out to me The secondary ones seem much more to be attributes who gained importance once the KR were formed. I also still believe, that those secondary attributes will have much to do with Vorinism. Related questions: Who or what was/is Vorin? When did it first appear? The Recreance is said to be the first failure of Vorinism, so there clearly was a link between the KR and Vorinism. This, as long with the religious nature of the attributes contributed to my above-stated theory. To that Shallan-problem. So far we haven't seen any spren attached to Szeth or Jasnah. Of course Syl is only visible to Kaladin, so, as we haven't yet got a Jasnah POV, there wouldn't be reason to see one. Szeth instead... And yet he is able to use Stormlight. As Kaladin was way before Syl gained conscience, if we see him glowing on the battlefield as the use of Stormlight. All I'm saying is that there has not to be a manifested spren for one to perform a Surgebinding. As Syl was mistaken for a windspren, a creativespren could become an "honorspren". In that case the symbolheads (who always seemed to me to be very strange spren) would just have something to do with how Soulcasting works. Just consider that possibility. Yeah, you'll bring the argument of the symbolhead talking about a bond etc. No need. But we're all so fixed on the idea that the symbolheads gave Shallan the ability in the first place. What do we really know about that? Personally, I am not convinced that there is proof. Also no need to discuss it here, just my own interpretation of things. However this probably won't stop you to so. (Which is one of the reasons, I like it here )

it actually did, thank you. That could explain the body focus part. I'll still have my problems with "hair" but I didn't pay attention to that feeling of Kaladin or Shallan. It will be interesting to see more about this in the future. I'm aware that most of what I've been saying has already been discussed. I intended to clarify some things which from what I've read in this forum are often mistaken. Maybe it will help newcomers...

It's been a while since I opened my last thread, just spamming others waiting and working on this one. I wanted to do an analysis of the Ars Arcanum, to see what we can really learn of it and how we can use it in the future. So far IMO it has been pretty much misunderstood. We have too keep in mind that the Ars Arcanum as it appears at the end of tWoK is an "in-world" creation which is mainly influenced by religion, Vorinism. While interpreting the Ars Arcanum we have to consider these things. It only shows what the author could gather at one moment about the magic system. In this post I want to argue in favor of the following theses: 1 - The Soulcasting properties only determine which Essences you can Cast with the Stormlight captured in a specific gemstone 2 – The Essences are the religious denomination of what you can Soulcast. 3 – The attributes are not related to which surges you can manipulate 4 – One's order is only determined by how you act. Content: I – The numbers II – The gemstones III – Soulcasting properties IV – Essences V – Body Focus VI – Attributes VI - Conclusion I - The numbers Well, the numbers are quite simple. There were ten Heralds who are worshipped by Vorinism. During the millenaires names changed, maybe they were reduced to part of a name right from the start. Anyway the numbers correspond to a Herald. Calling numbers after gods is not that curious an idea if you only think of the Romans calling months after their gods (January is from Janus, March is from Mars) or of the origin of our day's names (Thursday comes from Thor, Friday from Frija). II - The gemstones Gemstones are essential for Surgebinding because you have to capture and store Stormlight to be able to use it whenever you want. It appears that these gemstones are the most common or the only ones on Roshar. It would be interesting to know if there is other gemstones that can capture stormlight. A safer guess is to assume that these are just those chosen by Honor or whoever (Cultivation) to be those who capture stormlight. After all Preservation chose 16 (?) metals that can be used for Allomancy. Do they teach us something? Well, they were useful to determine the meaning of the "Magic-chart". And we have seen that the Shardplates of the KR glow in the colour their order is associated with. It seems to me that stormlight itself is white: BTW, your eyes get really bright, almost white when you have a lot of Stormlight in yourself. But if Stormlight is white, then why does Shardplate glow in different colours? Spheres glow in different colours because the Stormlight is trapped in gemstones. Shardplate is no gemstone and still it glows in different colours. Maybe the glyphs have something to do with that. Or the link between a KR and his Shardplate. The obvious link between the order, the gemstone with which they are associated and the colour of that gemstone points to the conclusion that the KR made the Plate somehow glow in a colour according to their order because it's way cooler than if everyone would glow white. The reason why gemstones are listed on the Ars Arcanum is obvious. They are needed for Surgebinding, needed by the KR. Today they are still needed by the ardents for Soulcasting, which gives us the religious link. What else? Gemstones are used in fabrials. From Navani's notes we know that the type and cut of gemstones determine their use: Gemstones are omnipresent on Roshar (maybe not in Shinovar) and essential for survival (Soulcasting protection and food). From there on it is not surprising that they got associated with the gods (Heralds). III – Soulcasting properties I continue with this column becaue these two belong together. I am convinced that the "properties" are those of the gemstones or to be more precise of the Stormlight captured in the gemstones. Evidence: (sorry I don't have the quotes, if you insist I'll get them, but I think they are not really needed) Jasnah uses smokestones to Cast things into smoke. She uses a ruby to Cast things into fire She uses a diamond to Cast things into crystal She and Shallan use garnets to Cast things into blood Emeralds are most valubale because they are used to Cast food (plants). It's not the person who Casts but the stone used in Casting which determines what you'll get from your Soulcasting. It is possible to Cast other things than stuff-which-can-be-soulcast (SWCBS – the honor for this wonderful acronym goes to treblkickd ) but IMO this requires a combination of stones and skill than Casting something into SWCBS. Anyway, Soulcasting properties do not have an influence in determining the order of a person. The reason why Soulcasting properties are enlisted is because the list is religious and Soulcasting is just so very important to people and the ardents in particular. In pretending they are the only ones to know how to use Soulcasters (the fabrials), they make themselves indispensable. IV – The Essences The Essences seem to be quite unimportant compared to the "Soulcasting properties". Still, they are the basics of that list. After all it's entitled: "The Ten Essences and their historical associations". (I have to admit that I also don't really understand the meaning of some of those words, hopefully you native speakers will be able to help out) There is at least one helpful quote: I believe there hasn't been paid much attention to the Essences yet. Btw I just researched lucentia, it comes from latin "lucere" which means "to glow". Lucentia means "glowing". However, the Essences seem to correspond more or less to the SWCBS. I include the meaning of the Essence as I understand it, correct me please: zephyr – sort of wind – translucent gas, air vapor – smoke spark – beginnung of a fire – fire Lucentia – "glowing" – quartz, crystal, glass = translucent solid stuff pulp – organic mixture – wood, plants, moss blood – blood tallow – used to tallow – oil foil – a thin peace of metal – metal talus – some mound of brocken rock – rock and stone sinew – meat and flesh I wonder if the Essences can teach us more than different meanings of SWCBS. Connerjade came up with an interesting thought HERE that Windrunners are called so, because they seem to manipulate wind. The first Essence is zephyr/air. The Stonewarden's Essence is talus/stone. So there seems to be a relation between Essences and order's names. Also, Taln calls himself "Stonesinew" before collapsing in Kholinar. Jezrien is often reffered to as "Stormfather". Essences could be a clue to order's names and thus to what they appear to be able to do. I put the emphasis on "appear" because Windrunners aren't manipulating wind but gravity and pressure. Following this logic, Stonewardens would appear to be able to do something related to stone. I believe Satsuoni came up with the idea that Travel functions via stone. Still following the logic and assuming that Dustbringers were an order of the KR, they would be order nr.2. And finally, even if the Worldsingers may have been founded by the Heralds, they are not an order, there is no Essence in the word "Worldsinger". And we don't know if the KRs themselves were founded by the Heralds, probably they weren't and Nohadon was the one doing it. I think that is just what we have to know about Essences. It's the religious names for SWCBS and they could give a clue about the order's names. Please understand that Essences do NOT give a clue about Surges but about what you POSSIBLY can do by manipulating Surges. V – Body Focus Well this is the column I don't really get. At first sight it just seems to be another religous thing. At one point Shallan is thinking about the eyes of the people she is sketching. This tells us that Shallan has another perception of the Ten Essences than the author of the Ars Arcanum. According to this quote the Essence blood is actually the Essence liquid. And pulp would be wood. Lucentia is crystal and glass. Which just points to my conclusion that Essences are just another name for SWCBS. The different perceptions can very well be due to different ardents talking or different Devotaries or such. The question is: do we gain any knowledge of body focus? Of course Kaladin has to inhale Stormlight to be able to use it.But I have problems to see how "hair" could be used to Surgebind. Or "oil". And Shallan would have needed to do something with her blood if the body focus were somehow connected to the use of Stormlight. IMO the body focus is just another part of Vorin theology. Demonstrating how every human is made of the ten divine Essences, thus being a creation of the Almighty... VI – The Attributes Finally we come to the most interesting column. The divine attributes. There is problems how to interpretate these: 1 – there is always two attributes but Heralds represented a sole ideal. 2 – how can we use the attributes to gain information about the characters in the book 1 – Two attributes vs. one ideal Each Herald represented an ideal. These ideals were adopted by the KR My thesis is that the primary attribute corresponds to the Heraldic ideal. The second attribute is an addition given to them by ardents, though not of essential importance. Why? Well, first because Heralds only represented an ideal. And if the attributes are considered divine, it's the primary ones, not the secondary ones. Secondly because the primary attributes are all really ideals. This doesn't fit for the secondary ones. The first ones are: protecting, just, brave, loving, learned, creative, wise, resolute, dependable, pious. The second ones: leading, confident, obediant, healing, giving, honest, careful, builder, ressourceful, guiding. Leading can be both positive or negative, obediant just sucks as an ideal, healing can be a purpose but not an ideal, builder just doesn't fit... Those secondary attributes often complete in some way the primary ones but that's not always the case (creative-honest?). This only teaches us that Vorinism didn't pick the secondary attributes completely at random. We don't know much about devotaries, maybe the secondary attributes have something to do with those. Conclusion: in order to use the attributes, we should only use the primary ones. Maybe one day we'll get information about why there are the second ones though. 2 – How to use the attribute The attributes give us information about how one gains magical abilities on Roshar. So Investiture on Roshar happens through acting in a specific way. Actions attract spren. However, if you act according to an ideal, your actions attract a specific spren which will be able to confer you the powers of the KR. However a bond can be formed without acting in such an "honorable" way. This implies that there has been Surgebinding before there were KR. The latter would just be more powerful through their special bond with special spren. These spren were those attracted to the actions. So. In order to determine ones order, we have to watch if the person has been acting according to an ideal/primary attribute. This has happened to the three people who we think are on their way to become KRs: Kaladin protects Shallan is creative Jasnah is learned That's also why Szeth isn't on his way to become a KR. Just which ideal would he follow? The other suspected KR-to-be is Dalinar. There we will have the choice between just (nr.2), resolute (nr.8), dependable (nr.9). Maybe wise (nr.7) but I think that is unlikely despite his reading Nohadon. Personally I believe him to become a nr.2. There has been the idea, that the attribute also gives you information about which Surges you can manipulate. Like the order nr.4 should be able to manipulate a Surge used for Healing. Of course I have said that the secondary attribute is irrelevant. But also there is no link between Protecting and Gravity/Pressure. If someone can prove to me that link, I'll begin considering it. VII – Conclusion Of course there is lots of consequences if my conclusions approach the truth. What first comes to my mind is the whole truthspren theory. If acting according to an ideal attracts spren, Shallan attracts because she is creative. Not because she is honest. After all I don't see where she acted very honestly. So the reason why the symbolhead wanted a truth would be another. I'll let you rip my post to pieces. But if you've made to the end, it should at least have interested you. Thank you for reading this huge post and sharing your thoughts.

I would be very surprised if Brandon did not use the different names on purpose. Doesn't he teach creative writing? I believe that the Heralds were just normal people (as normal as a king can be) who took the burden. Not gods, not angelic beings. Just people. So of course they're flawed, as everyone else. In Vorinism though, they are gods. so if symmetry is divinity, symmetric names would be very useful for ardents to make their points.

Thank you, I've alway had trouble with what the goblets spirit/spren said to Shallan. It has so much the feel of wanting to change, to get free. this gives a good explanation for it.

I believe Soulcasters (the fabrials) are the only fabrials who survived this long (if there ever had been others) because how essential they are for surviving on Roshar. Of course you can survive without them, but it's hard. And most important, they are besides Shardplates and -blades the only means to really wield power. If you have Soulcasters at hand, you can provide armies with food, create barracks for soldiers, all this stuff. @Connerjade Surges 4 - the idea about time being the Surge used to heal someone is to speed up the natural healing process of your body. By the description given by Dalinar, the KR puts Stormlight into him, which he feels all over his body. (the cold feeling. so if you heal one leg you automatically heal the fatigue away. After all the human body heals best when sleeping, so the feel as if Dalinar had awakened from a good night's sleep could be explained this way. As I said, I don't reject the possibility of life being a Surge, but I don't think it likely. Life is just too much a complex process to be an elemental force. Also: how do you heal by using life? do you create the missing flesh? Against time being the Surge used for Regrowth: if you only speed up a healing process, then you could not regrow missing members. The name Regrowth seems to imply exactly this... Feel free to convince me 5 - As long as Brandon doesn't say explicitly that Travel is a Surge and not just an "ability", I'll still believe that it's the name given to the Surge (being the elemental force). I don't say it's not the Surge, but that we still have to find the elemental force. Same for Transformation. It very possible though, that I overstate the importance of the Surges being elemental forces. attributes If you presume that Nohadon did indeed have his say in forming the KR after the ideals of the Heralds, I see, why there could be a link between Surges and attributes. Still I reject this idea. I'm actually working on a post explaining why. However, you have a point with the names of the KR's orders. Wind or Air (zephyr) is the first Essence. And the first order is called Windrunners. I think the name comes from them flying around. Either jumping with only 45% of your weight Lashed downwards, which makes you very very light and you can jump these impressive jumps. Or by Lashing half your weight downwards, which makes you weightless and you use atmospheric pressure to create wind which will blow you whereever you want. (This being a sort of Stormriding). Either way, to a normal person, it would seem as using Wind. So, again, there may be some link between Essences and Surges. But not with attributes. But you made me think more closely about my ideas, thank you.

They're the same person, I agree. I thought Kelek is the Vorin name for Kalak. Like Jezerezeh for Jezrien etc. For now we don't know when Vorinism did appear or why. Maybe it wasn't but after the Heralds departed. So the ardents would never actually have met the Heralds and take their names how they sound. Plus, they love symmetry, so Heralds will even be more divine when their names are symmetric. (Of course Kalak already is symmetric)

Hey and welcome if this is still adequate if you have been around for a while (probably longer than I have myself ) there is something about Surges we have to keep in mind. Actually there's two things. 1. Surges are elemental forces which can be manipulated. For the two confirmed Surges (gravity and atmospheric pressure (=adhesion) this is no problem. Also Brandon has referred to atomic or electromagnetic forces. 2. Surges may have common names. We don't know if Rosharians have enough understanding of physics to really understand the elemental forces, so they gave them names. To tell those apart from the forces Brandon seems to use capitals. Based on this I'll review your list. Nr. 3 - could very well be temperature. After all if you heat up a stone just to some thousand degrees it will begin to smolder eventually. I think this is what you are referring to. (Side-thought. The use Stormlight cools things down. We meet this phenomena with Szeth and Kaladin while putting Stormlight into an object, Shallan while Soulcasting and Dalinar being healed.) Nr.4 - you're reffering to Regrowth I believe. It has been argued that the Surge could be life indeed. I am not really convinced if that is an elemental force (which seem to me to be much more physical) but it could be. We don't know enough yet. Nr.5 - I believe it has been confirmed that Travel was a Surge or at least a power of the KR. I think that Travel is but the use of a Surge, Travel being the name (like in WoT). Ideas of how to travel using an elemental force could include time or some wormhole-like stuff, dissolving matter and fitting it back together at another place making it manipulation of atomic forces. Nr.6 - As Nr.5 this is confirmed as being a Surge. It's Soulcasting but whether Soulcasting is the power using Transformation or just another name, I don't know. My guess is, that Transformation is yet another Rosharian name for a Surge. It would be manipulation of atoms, like I proposed for Travel, only brining the atoms back together in a different configuration. Nr. 7-10 - Well, there is much we still have to know. However I do believe that time is a Surge. I remeber having read somewhere that Brandon once said that the magic systems all share a common base (Adonalsium...) and that the Shards just use them differently. This brings me to the conclusion that what is possible in one magic system can be an indication of what is possible in another. We've seen that time can be manipulated on Scadrial, so, why not here. It has been proposed for both Regrowth and Travel. As to other elemental forces, as I said above, electromagnetism is probably in it. What about light? Surges are what determine our lives. Gravity holds us down, pressure makes that we don't dissolve like our lungs would do in space, electromagnetic forces make atoms cling together, that kind of stuff. Shallan cannot do it, because she does not share the Surge used for Travel with Jasnah (they're not in the same order). They share the Surge used for Transformation, that excludes that they share another one. While you are a strong beliver in the attributes of an order being important, I am convinced they are not in the least important to what Surges they can manipulate. I believe that the attributes are simply what attracts the spren. The Surges which come along being independent. I just don't know how manipulation of gravity and pressure are connected to Protecting and Leading. And: living along the attributes is simply what can make you a KR. Surgebinding existed before the KR. There were probably people who could use Regrowth well before the KR were formed along the Heraldic attributes. I myself are more inclined to the woman using Regrowth being of the Stonewardens (nr.9 actually) according to her amber Shardplate which matches the colour of Topaz and in the Recreance vision we see that Stonewardens do have amber-glowing Shardplates. I agree with her appearing being Travel. In my opinion Windrunners and Stonewardens constituted the KR's task-force because they were the KR who were most apt to appear somewhere fast enough to protect. I agree with point 1 I disagree with point 2 (as told before because Essences just don't have anything to do with which Surges you can manipulate) As to point 3: The only mention of Dustbringers is indeed in the Prelude. If temperature is a Surge, than I hope the ones who can use it have something to do it at a safe distance. Because if you heat a rock until it smolders, you should better not touch it in the process. If those could launch Stormlight as Jasnah does with the murderers, that would help a lot. I think you're confusing order 8 and 9. Nr.9 is the Stonewardens. They were installed conforming to the image of Talenel. Their plate glows amber, according to the colour of a topaz, their associated stone. The wiki has them having Regrowth because the woman using Regrowth had a plate glowing amber. Also Stonewardens seem to like to appear with Windrunners. OK, hope this helps a little

Szeth is Surgebinding, you're right. What fiveAM was talking about is that Szeth is not on his way to become a KR (who also do Surgebindings but way better that those Surgebinders not bound by their oaths.) There were Surgebinders even before the KR existed. They're just a sort of Elite-Surgebinders.

the freedom of art... the "not-radiant" chart is much more colorful, it would make a great window IMO. If the artist thought that the connections would spoil the result, well, he just omitted them. Of course that's just a theory, as I tried to explain

I had always thought the "Not-Radiant" chart to be an artistic version of the Radiant chart. I believe that the surge-symbols are no more than glyphs. We know that glyphs are often adapted to what they describe and can thus be written in a lot of different forms. As you pointed out, the surges are the same, you find the caracteristic glyph in both. So to me it's just in-world glyphs depicted in different styles. Also, if that Shadesmar-map is an in-world window, the fact that the map and the chart have the same frame could mean that this one also is an in-world window somewhere. Following this idea, the lack of connections between "Not-orders" and surges could just be due to the articstic interpretation. Nevertheless, you brought me to consider that the "not-radiant" chart could very well be something different than an artistic interpretation. After all I haven't found any similarities between the swordglyphs and those on the "not-radiant" chart yet. But again. Maybe the radiant-chart was the original version of the KR. The not-radiant a Vorin one. One more thought. If I'm right about the surges being glyphs, than they have meaning (like the Alethi script from Navani's notebook, which has been deciphered). It would be very interesting to see if someone will be able to decipher the glyphs. (We would get to know the surges... )

yep, that's what I was saying. As to Jasnah, I stated my opinion in this thread posts #77 and #80.

Edited. structuring the post, correcting some typos. Changed my mind about thunderclasts and tried to depict the controversy about thunderclasts and chasmfiends. Excluded Shardwielding because I don't really have an idea what it is and it's really not in the Prelude (as if that would have kept me from inserting other stuff, I know ) Finally I added a funny theory about Honorblades.

thanks treblkickd, I was already writing when you posted, that's why we're saying the same thing.

ok, please forgive my inability to express myself, I'm working on it I'll try again. I think that the interpretation of the Ars Arcanum should be different. Jasnah is not good at Soulcasting organics. But I don't think that the ability to Soulcast stuff into organics depends on your order. That's why her lack of ability in that domain cannot be an argument against or in favor of her belonging to any order. My interpretation of the Ars Arcanum is indeed that the Soulcasting properties refer to gems used in the process. I don't know whether it is possible that they can be used to create different things, but Soulcasting works best when you have the gems with the proper abilites. That's why emerald spheres are the most valuable, because they are used to create food. We have seen that Jasnah is very good at Soulcasting stuff into one of the Essences, mostly smoke, crystal and fire (smokestone, diamond and ruby). Maybe she is just not good at combining Essences (because she never had the proper training?). Why should she be good at creating organics (wood, plants, moss) when belonging to order nr.5? 1. as those belong to the Essences, they should be pretty easy to Cast if you have an emerald. 2. Jasnah says herself that she isn't good at creating organics. Strawberry jam or bread is not simply an Essence but a mixture of it. So Jasnah simply lacks skill. And she didn't even have an emerald to Cast the basics of organics. 3. there is next to noone on Roshar (except for Jasnah and Shallan) who does have inherent Soulcasting abilites. Noone belongs to an order yet. Still Soulcasting works pretty well to create barracks, food, wood etc. So the Soulcasting properties are not about KR-orders but about gemstones used in the process. 4. If you say that Jasnah should be good at Casting organics provided she is indeed in order nr.5, then you say that a member of another order should be good at Casting their respective Essences. (so Kaladin is very good at Casting gas/air? I have serious problems to believe in that interpretation of the Ars Arcanum) Summary: You are good at creating Essences when you posses the fitting infused gemstones. Casting stuff out of different Essences requires skill and knowledge. Belonging to an order defines in no way in which Castings you are good or bad. So Jasnah being bad at Casting strawberry jam cannot be an argument against her being in order nr.5 Well, I hope you will be able to understand what I'm trying to say.