Bigmikey357

I don't think I've ever really questioned the motive for his actions, though I acknowledge that others might. What I always call into question are his methods. If a supervillian wanted to change his stripes and seek to do good but ran the same playbook he did when he was evil, the results would look remarkably like our favorite fearless crew leader.

Kelsier does heroic things in the most Lex Luthor-ish way possible. Remorseless. There are some characters that hold great power and have a dark past. But when the rubber meets the road you can't truly see them playing on Team Evil for a given value of evil. Harry Dresden is an example of that kind of guy. If Butcher wrote a narrative where Dresden took the heel turn I think that would look like a betrayal of his character. Meanwhile if Brandon wrote Kelsier as a Big Bad character in Era 3 or 4 would anyone really be surprised? As far as giving hope to a downtrodden populace, is making yourself into a God-like figure the only method to do so? It would be different if his followers propped him up to be a God-like figure and he reluctantly went along with it. It's quite another to go in with the express purpose of making a population worship you. That's some David Koresh type stuff to me.

The fact that he's establishing religions that worship him is the problematic thing. It would be worse if he actually began wielding that power but nothing says he could not do so later. It's like Survivorism and the beliefs of SoScad are like metalminds. He's storing Faith. At any time he could come back and tap that Faith if he so chose, wrecking a great many things. As far as the killing of nobles, he's kinda anti-hero in that. Frank Castle with superpowers. Look, I love Kelsier but I understand he could flip the switch at any time. If he went evil or insane the catastrophic destruction he could invoke is frightening to contemplate. And his ruthlessness and megalomaniac tendencies make that flip quite plausible.

Then there's the whole founding Religion and getting people to worship him thing. He's founded one in each Era so far. I mean isn't it strange that that's his go-to? He does good things but the darkness isn't very far down.

I think you may be on to something, and fortunately soon we should see some evidence that may provide some insight. I'm not so sure the number of plate sections is significant, but I do like the idea that the glyphs on the Blades correlate with Plate. Maybe the Glyphs are an outward symbol of progression. When a Knight has spoken enough Oaths to gain Shardplate, his/her spren undergoes a change, they are drawn in even further into the Physical Realm and can draw their cousin spren into the PR with them to form Plate. That process changes the Spren; the glyphs are an expression of that change. I'm willing to bet that there are more blank blades than there are ones with glyphs. The test is to observe the spren we've seen as Blades so far. Did Pattern, Syl, Ivory, Windle or Glys have any Glyph patterns when we first saw them in weapon form? As we see their Knight raise the level of their Ideals, will we see that outward change occur?

Fire is going to be a dangerous tool on Roshar. The oxygen content there is significantly higher than here on earth. It's partly why they rely so much on gems and Stormlight for illumination, glowing money instead of say, candles.

I was just pointing out that a fight against Jasnah will cost Kaladin a lot in terms of Stormlight. He may be able to mitigate this somewhat with practice and experience (in fact that's exactly what I believe he'll do), his strengths lie in incredible movement through Lashings. That means he's going to have to spend a lot to win. To beat Jasnah he's going to have to force her to burn through her stockpile as rapidly as he's burning through his own. Since I don't see a way a Jasnah filled with Stormlight loses to any one opponent that isn't a Shard, Sliver or Splinter, Kaladin only wins once he forces her to go empty. And if she's empty then it doesn't matter if Kaladin has run dry as well. Jasnah wins most battles imo because Kaladin won't be able to reliably force her to burn through her reserves before he does. Either that or she fools him into thinking that she's empty when she isn't. Punching through a wall made of Aluminum a foot thick would probably be easier than punching through a wall made of steel or granite with Shardplate. Unless it's being alloyed with something else to strengthen its integrity, similar to what Aluminum guns and bullets are made of in Mistborn Era 2, pure aluminum is going to be pretty weak. Do the inhabitants of Roshar know enough of metallurgy to be able to reliably explain the concept, so that Jasnah can reproduce it? And how well does an aluminum alloy block kinetic Investiture as compared to pure aluminum? Lastly, there's a WOB out there that I believe says it's easier to soulcast pure metals than their alloys. It's presumably why when Heralds prepared humans for Desolations, they set the Soulcasters to casting bronze weapons instead of steel ones. Is it harder because it uses more Stormlight to produce or does it take longer or is it difficult to conceptualize in a coherent enough way for a caster to understand?

Quite scary if it turns out to be true. But that begs the question, who holds the knife? Moash is a pissant. I can't see him ascending high enough to become Odium's champ. Maybe we haven't been introduced to Odium's backup candidate yet.

I'm picking Allomancy. I can use it anywhere, I don't have any behavior requirements, I won't have much of a problem refueling, and I won't have to suffer any crazy body modifications.

@Pathfinder Realising one has a problem is often the first step to fixing it. Kaladin's alarming Stormlight usage can be curtailed with practice and understanding. However, looking at a contest between the two while taking into account their Surges, Jasnah's greatest advantage is versatility. It would be movement too but it seems the mechanics of Transportation isn't like say, Nightcrawler. Almost anything in her range can be changed provided she sees it coming and has time to overcome its initial Investiture. She can mostly rely on Plate for defense and if she gets overwhelmed she has a nearly fullproof escape route. Kaladin's big advantage, perhaps his only one against Jasnah, is movement in the Physical Realm. In addition to the enhanced movement Plate provides every Radiant he can fly. Unfortunately, everything he does when it comes to his advantage takes Stormlight to accomplish. The nature of his powers mean that he will use a lot of his Stormlight evading whatever Jasnah can cook up. The balance is that Kaladin doesn't use as much Stormlight to lash as Jasnah uses to soulcast. The way I envision it, Kaladin and Jasnah each have a conveyer belt where a rock appears in front of them once every second. If Jasnah is Soulcasting her rock while Kal is lashing his, Jasnah runs out faster because she has to overcome the Investiture of each rock she affects. Jasnah's Stormlight usage is therefore likely a learned behavior. The nature of her Surges allows this behavior to not be fatal. I don't see Stormlight conservation as an incredibly difficult skill to learn, nor one particularly granted to only certain Surgebinders. What is it about Surges that makes it so you don't believe Kaladin will ever get the hang of it? Yes he's shown little evidence of it so far but the last scenes show his awareness of the issues he faces. Again I think you downplay the role experience has in interpreting Kaladin's magical actions to date. Kaladin will use more Stormlight than Jasnah in a given battle. He has the luxury to be able to do so and he depends on his Surges more. In most battles he will run out before Jasnah will. But his abilities can press her. And if he can run her dry even as he runs dry himself he wins. Unless you think an unpowered Jasnah beats an unpowered Kaladin. Last, why couldn't Kaladin just punch through the aluminum box Jasnah would Soulcast around him with his Shardplate or cut through it with Syl? It stops magic but not momentum. It's going to act like a Faraday cage but if someone is holding a wrench and hitting it from the inside the cage will break. And Soulcasting something big enough to encase Kaladin in while he's moving is likely to take a very significant portion of her reserves. The aluminum dust to me is the better option.

2 things with this. Familiarity with powers and effeciency of Stormlight usage. The very first instances you mentioned, Kaladin was just learning that he could use Stormlight for these things he was doing. Without a guide he was pretty much fumbling along. I haven't read WoK in awhile but he hadn't even spoken Ideal 1 until the middle of his fight with the Parshendi if I recall correctly. Afterwards he was sneaking in practice sessions in between his other time-consuming duties. He was only on Ideal 2 at the time he first fought Szeth, and that's with his bond weakened. Everything up until the end of WoR was him operating on the 2nd Ideal. The Hearthstone one almost doesn't count as he flew on Stormlight for approximately 2 days. This was before he learned the highstorm Flight trick, you know, since they were in the middle of a Weeping. The Shadesmar incident shouldn't count for much either since it wasn't a fighting situation 1 and 2 he had already expended much in the castle assault. He'd never been to Shadesmar, how would he know he'd need Stormlight there? When he nearly ran out at Thaylen Field, that's the first time he had enough understanding of his powers to realize that he really should try to be more conservative. That's the first time I see in the narrative that he actually pays attention to his fuel gauge. That's the encouraging sign to me. And I still don't think you're taking into account the amount of time he's actually had access to his powers. He's knocking down these oaths pretty quickly but using the powers well isn't always intuitive, especially when you have a spren who isn't allowed to tell you what your capabilities are. To put this into perspective, Jasnah has held her powers for 6 years, yet it took until she was nearly assassinated before she got even a moderate level of proficiency with her Transportation surge, 5 or so years in. If you think she didn't fumble a little her first year with access to Soulcasting then I think you're holding to unrealistic expectations. I haven't even mentioned the Stormlight efficiency increase with additional Oaths. On Oath 3 Kaladin was able to transverse nearly half of Alethkar. On Oath 5 Kaladin would probably be able to make that trip and back to Urithiru several times before running out, even without flying on the edge of a Highstorm. It either takes him less Stormlight to perform an action or his fuel tank is bigger.

Initial momentum. If you lash something you must use Stormlight, more Stormlight for multiple lashings and greater speed, enough speed so that Jasnah cannot easily dodge something incoming. Meanwhile a Shardplate-assisted throw uses no Stormlight and can be imparted with a greater initial velocity. And let's face it kiddies, movement in the Physical Realm is probably Kal's only real advantage in a fight with Jasnah. He needs Stormlight to fly. Tossing rocks with it is a waste.

We can discuss based on conjecture. Yes we have narrative proof that as it stands Jasnah has been shown to be way more conservative with her stormlight usage. But let's put that into context. How long has Jasnah had the use of her Surges? At least 6 years. Kaladin has had his probably just short of 1 year. At this point in the narrative Jasnah has a great understanding of her capabilities, Kaladin leans on instincts. It's not worth discussing the possibility that Kaladin can grow in his understanding? Kaladin already has the impetus to do better, Thaylen City taught him that just flinging Stormlight around isn't going to be enough. He'd have died without Rock's timely use of a Shardbow. We've also seen in the narrative how hard Kaladin trains, both with the spear and defense against Shardbearers. Why would he give any less effort to learning how to manage his Surges? It's no different than projecting how Lyft will develop when she gets older. I'm sure that I've already stated that if they fought today Jasnah would wipe the floor with our favorite bridgeman. That's why I proposed to make the contest more even. It's why I set the conditions as both being full Radiants with an equal amount of initial Stormlight and both have Blade and Plate. Even with all things being equal I see Jasnah winning more than she loses. I'm going to leave dodging alone as I'm not sure I'd be able to convince you of how devastating a thrown projectile in the hands of a Radiant wearing Plate could potentially be. I think that even with enhanced reflexes dancing past everything is unrealistic but obviously you and others think differently. Let me ask you something. I took Kaladin's side as sort of a thought exercise as to how he could potentially win a powered fight with Jasnah. I saw a path to victory for Kaladin. Can you picture a scenario where Kaladin has a chance or is it 100% Jasnah for you? Curious.

When I said Jasnah is using less Stormlight at Thaylen City, it isn't exactly a contradiction. Yes of course Jasnah is using a bunch of Stormlight, but it's not constant. Each instance you name is just that, an instance. Compare that to Shallan and Kaladin in the same battle. They are on constant burn. I look at it like a pitcher of water. Jasnah pours her water in a glass, then another glass, then another glass, each time representing a soulcasting. Kaladin and Shallan are tipping their pitcher over non-stop until the pitcher is empty. Jasnah with her experience knows how to pace herself and make whatever amount of Stormlight she has last for as long as possible. Is it out of the realm of possibility that Kaladin learns this as he becomes more familiar with his surges? I mean Kaladin is no dumb brute. Right now he is using his powers instinctively but he can study. As for dodging, I'll make one more attempt to state my case before conceding the argument. Say Kaladin is throwing fist sized rocks at Jasnah. Say he's doing it in Shardplate. The fastest an unenhanced human can throw something like that is maybe 100 mph give or take. At the lowest estimate given Shardplate strength magnification, Kaladin would be able to toss said rock twice as fast. Stormlight magnifies reaction time but not that much. Now if Kaladin is tossing from 100 yards away, sure it would be doable to dodge something screaming at you that fast. How about from 10 yards? One would almost have to be moving before the throw is completed to dodge something moving that fast from that close in. Jasnah ain't burning Atium after all. I'm sure you've seen a baseball in flight on TV. Even with a pitcher clocking triple digits on a speedgun it doesn't look all that fast. I mean you can track it by eye as it leaves the pitcher's hand and all. Being on the other end of that pitch, trying to watch it as it comes towards you, is an entirely different can of worms. Much harder to dodge I assure you. If Kaladin is tossing rocks, Jasnah isn't dodging all of them. She will take some hits on her plate. Kaladin has a much higher chance to dodge because he can fly, but if Jasnah tosses rocks back, Kaladin ain't dodging em all either.

Not many native birds either. Maybe in Shin. But do actual chickens have enough niter in their feces to duplicate what bat guano does? I don't know. As far as the Ozone Generater, I don't believe it will be on the list of priorities for a civ just discovering electric power. I actually don't think they're all that far away from electricity with fabrial tech as a shortcut. But fabrials make the eventual discovery of gunpowder both incredibly difficult to evolve naturally and incredibly easy to mass produce with a sample and a demonstration. Have Hoid steal one of Wax's guns, visit Jasnah, show her the effectiveness of it and within 10 years Alethkar is the center for gunpowder and weaponry for the entire planet.

I think guns would actually work, well, cannons. Someone would have to invent or discover gunpowder though. That will likely have to be an offworld import though, at least until a soulcaster understands the properties enough to mass produce it. I don't see many native bats on Roshar.

There's a potential faster way to cruise the Cosmere if they can get it figured out. Travel through the Spiritual Realm in an improbability drive ship.

I like the theory in principle but there are a couple potential problems that I can see. The first kinda informs the second. A person in Shardplate is much more maneuverable than one would think an armored man should be. We've seen Dalinar jump across 40 foot chasms, climb spires, ect. You're almost going to have to pin him with a fairly large group of Calvary. One or even 2 dudes with lances aren't gonna get him except by surprise. Good luck hiding the distinct sound of horse hooves traveling at killing speed. So you need a large force, which runs right up against the second point. Supply. Horses are not only expensive but fairly rare on Roshar. Going against a Shardbearer one could expect to lose upwards of 40 horses by that method. Frankly,the horse population will be exhausted far faster than Shardbearers. Ryshidium are more maneuverable and stronger than regular horses, but far more rare as well. And Ryshidium riders aren't exactly abundant either.

Remember Kaladin cracked Plate with a Stormlight-assisted drop kick in the 4 v 1 duel. I think with a Shardhammer squad the strategy along with strike and dodge is focus. Whatever piece one hits, every strike should be designed to focus on that one section of Plate.

I appreciate everyone getting into the spirit of this. You guys are awesome.

I'm sure Taravanginan would love to get his hands on a Moelach Fabrial to tweak his mighty Diagram. A Yelig-Nar Fabrial could make someone the Rosharan version of a Fullborn. Overuse turns you into a Thunderclast.

I don't know how well this will go over but here goes. There's been a lot of frustration over the boards in regards to character discussions. People bag on a character they hate and then are upset when the fans of the characters rebutt their statements. So I decided to post this as a sort of release valve. So bag on any character you want. Agreement accepted but no rebuttals allowed. If you think Wax is a total git, speak on it! If you hate Evi, spit it out! Farcical complaints are allowed as well. Maybe you wanna say you disliked the way Vin wore her hair or something. Whatever. This isn't a debate space, this is a venting space. I'll start with Dalinar. Murderer. Terrible husband. Awful father. Control freak. Drunk. Bully. He was an honorable dude we thought, but his past is a nightmare he created. He hates himself almost as much as everyone else on Roshar. The bum has much to answer for and I hope he gets what he deserves.

If he's as sexually inexperienced as I think he is, Shallan on their wedding night will likely ruin him for other non-powered women.

I had a different interpretation of the Oath pattern. Here goes. 1st Ideal: Overall Mission Statement. This Ideal is universal to all Knights regardless of Order. The rest exclude Lightweavers since they are structured differently than everyone else. 2nd Ideal: Order Mission Statement This Ideal is the first unique Oath. It will roughly be the same for all Knights of that Order and my guess is that it ties in to the first of the Divine Attributes associated with the Order. For example, Windrunner is Protecting/Leading. This Oath and all the others will be about Protection. The other Attribute is what the Knight is all about. Their Oaths center on protection. They will be leaders. Since strength of squires is a Windrunner thing it makes sense to me. This also works for Skybreakers and Edgedancers. Skybreakers are Just/Confident and all their Oaths are about justice. They're a pretty confident bunch. Edgedancers (Loving/Healing) have Oaths that deal with love, and they're natural healers. 3rd Ideal: Personalized Expansion of Mission Statement On this Oath the Knight takes ownership of their Oath, signifying what the Order means to them in the context of their Divine Attributes. It serves to narrow the focus and the words will be accepted as long as it's in the same theme as the Oaths. Compare and contrast Kaladin's and Teft's 3rd Ideal. 4th Ideal: Refining Personalized Mission Statement This Ideal is often the hardest to achieve because this Oath is the proving ground for one's beliefs. Skybreakers call this Ideal the Ideal of Crusade and it seems logical that the other Orders follow this pattern in a similar way. It deals with exceptions to the rules set and many will find it hard to achieve the proper equilibrium. Jasnah sparing Renarin, choosing compassion over logic, is what I believe is the impetus for her 4th Ideal. Kaladin could not say it because he couldn't come to terms with the fact that he cannot protect everyone. And although Lightweavers don't necessarily follow this pattern, if they have progressed this far then they are dealing with the hardest Truths they can come to grips with. 5th Ideal: Embodiment The final Ideal is the one where a Knight internalizes everything that Order represents. I mostly got this from Nale's 5th. I am Law. You gotta be pretty confident to believe you are worthy to be an ultimate judge of mankind. And I believe people that can say Ideal 5 are those that most resemble their patron Herald pre-Last Desolation. Kaladin upon saying Oath 5 will be like Jezrian used to be before a dozen Desolations scrambled his brain. Knights are broken when they enter their Nahel Bond. Spren fill the cracks more completely with every Oath spoken. By the time they can speak their final Ideal they will have been made whole with the soul merge between them and their Spren. To me, that's the same as emotional healing.

Jasnah at that point in the story is 1. Higher in Oaths than Kaladin in his scenes and more experienced in Stormlight usage than either of them. Shallan was recreating an army when she ran dry, Kaladin at the end of OB was fighting someone who posessed all Surges and was Invested to the hilt. From what we've seen, Jasnah has yet to encounter a situation where she'd have to use a ruinous amount of Stormlight. Even in Thaylen City she wasn't using it as much as the others had to. She repaired a wall and fought Fused. Stormlight doesn't make anyone experience time differently. Just because they have the same enhancements is no guarantee that Jasnah will be able to track an object traveling at a ridiculous speed, just that she can throw objects comparably hard. If Jasnah throws a rock at Kaladin he will have the same problem dodging as she would. But Kal's surge allows him to throw even faster if he applies lashings. But ok. Let's say both Jasnah and Kaladin are both at 5th Ideal. We know Stormlight usage is more efficient the higher the Oath. I suspect that Jasnah will be more conservative in her usage of Stormlight because she has to be, because she knows that everytime she uses it's going to eat heavily into her stockpile. Kaladin will burn without much regard both because he can't be stingy if he wants to survive v Jasnah and because his usages take up less of his stockpile than his opponent. @Calderis brings up a good point also regarding Soulcasting at distance. If she has to close her eyes and concentrate when doing so unless she has the power of a nearby Perpendicularity to work with its gonna be real hard to deal with fast moving objects flying towards her head.