Jace21

Hello Fellow Sharders! This is a dual purpose post, one part theory and one part information request. I know there has been a lot of discussion about who swapped out Taln's Honorblade for a regular Shardblade and we have yet to find out, but I had an idea. What if someone stole the Honorblade but the Shardblade already belonged to him? We know Nale says "as far as he knows" he is the only Herald to bond a spren, but that's ambiguous enough to give us something to work with. Now I know we, know essentially nothing about Stonewards and Taln's personality but the little we have indicates he would have been a perfect fit. In WoR one of the epigraphs says So if the Stonewards were like Taln, it stands to reason Taln could attract a Stoneward Spren. Now we don't know for sure, but an ideal Brandon has revealed looks like it could fit the Stonewards, which is Now, what if by breaking on Braize, returning from Damnation and failing to prepare people for the desolation he broke his Oaths and "killed" his own Spren. Could this have locked the hypothetical Spren in Blade form? If so, the Blade Dalinar takes could be the deadblade of Taln's Spren and the only mystery is who stole his Honorblade. This also fits with things such as Taln being the series' Stoneward and allows for a Blade revival story line where the knight is still alive (WoB says this would be really helpful), allowing it to happen even if Adolin/Maya doesn't happen. I am not the best with WoBs and suchlike, so any one want to come shoot this down?

Operative word being "if". I am not convinced, mainly because the idea that they had Taln for thousands of years and either didn't kill him or didn't figure out how until just after he left seems like a stretch. Seems more likely that they couldn't, at least while he was on Braize.

You're right, the Spiritual realm is independent of location, but it's difficult to figure out the mechanics since terminology doesn't work for it. Like Jasnah with "Shadesmar is not a place" and "the place (Shadesmar)". Brandon says the Spiritual is indeoendent of location, then says Endowment is "on" Nalthis. Its confusing. I think their "location" is simply where there attention is, but that investing in a place forces their attention there, which as their minds are limited blinds them to other planets, at least for the most part. Autonomy seems to be getting around this by not "investing" per se as she would be limited how much she could, but granting "Autonomy" to the pockets of her investiture she find. While a normal Shard can't be aware of all their power, she gets around it by making the excess power self-aware. I was responding to Bigmike's more on the basis of WoBs where shards are location based than the nature of the spiritual realm implies as thats the way the mechanics make the most sense to me.

No, know Odium is imprisoned and that the Oathpact imprisons the Fused. At best the relationship between the Heralds and Odium's imprisonment is indirect. I am almost positive he is talking Spren, especially larger ones like the Stornfather as you say. I don't even think Heralds are splinters, though I think their Blades are.

Do you have a source for this? Atium works as well as it does (well but imperfectly as we see with Vin and Zane) because it is only a few seconds in the future. While intervention by someone else will influence things (not always a Shard, ses Renarin), it doesn't mean Shardic future sight is otherwise perfect. Honor himslrf mentions how difficult it is to see any distance into the future and we are talking hundreds of years since Vasher and Nighblood were created. Even if you're right that only another Shard makes things uncertain, that is exactly what you're saying. You're saying that despite the involvement of 3 other Shards on Roshar, Endowment has somehow still seen the future with enough detail to know how and when to intervene and with which tools (Vasher and Nightblood) hundreds of years in advance? I don't buy it.

I am not convinced it will change the plan at all. It could even accelerate it now that they could lose the option if they don't ask fast. That said it seems likely that she won't kill any Heralds but I think that will be for reasons unrelated to the dagger. I fall in the camp that thinks he already agreed and can't back out now so this would be moot for me. What words are you thinking where Odium implies killing Heralds will directly lead to his freedom? I thought the relationship was indirect, that killing Heralds prevents the reimprisonment of the Fused which will speed up his escape.

@Bigmikey357, I guess we just disagree then. We know that previously Odium has specifically avoided investing anywhere precisely so he can defeat Shards, so investing would seem to weaken you in a Shard Battle, not strengthen you. We also know that your hypothetical of Endowment visiting Cultivation would be essentially impossible without withdrawing from and screwing up Nalthis, with the added chance that she would accidentally invest Roshar. It is something that happens automatically when Shards remain on a planet, they can't help it. Calderis already covered pretty well why it seems likely Stormlight existed pre-Honor and that investiture of each Shard is distributed unevenly so I wont go through that again.

That's fine, it can not seem a coincidence to you while possibly being one for me. Brandon qualifies the WoB saying Endowments involvement is more than using her investiture (breaths) but "not to the extent you're thinking", so it's still pretty vague. And while I agree that the creation of Vasher/Nightblood are unlikely to be coincidence, it could easily be conincidence that they are on Roshar, which is what I was saying. Even Shardic future sight is flawed and considering the Returned don't always do what they're supposed to anyway, she clearly isn't perfect and forseeing hundreds of years in the future will be even more difficult.

Sorry if I was unclear, that isn't what I was querying at all. I know that a Vessels mind is limited and they cannot use power until they are aware of it, which requires conscious effort. It is how you think a Shard invests a planet that I am unclear on. You have said "Investing in a planet means gaining access to the Investiture assigned to that Shard in that particular planet or solar system", which would seem to imply that a Shard can only "invest" by taking control of it's investiture that was already there. Do you think Shards are limited like that? It seems more likely that having investiture already there is helpful, but not necessary. It changed who it was assigned to, from Adonalsium to Honor/Cultivation, but I doubt it changed much more than that or the planet would be too different. You are obviously entitled to believe as you wish, but personally I see more evidence that Stormlight (in it's present form), is of Honor and Cultivation rather than just Honor.

Have you read OB? There definitely seem to be limits to how much NB can absorb.

It could definitely be a coincidence. Nightblood is more than just Endowment is likely only on Roshar because Vasher took him and Vasher himself just wanted more freely available investiture. Is it possible both were Endowment's plan? Yes. Are there perfectly reasonable alternate explanations, also yes.

I agree, that's how Autonomy pulls off her Avatar trick. Completely disagree that it is the only way to invest a planet. All Autonomy seems to be doing with her avatars is creating a personality so she can control the power already there that is assigned to her, she is not actively putting anything into the planet (outside of Taldain) like Honor and Cultivation did on Roshar. At least from what we've seen so far. Because the division of investiture was random, and that's how randomness works. If each Shard got 1/16 of Adonalsium's power but which 1/16 they got was random, it stands to reason it is distributed unevenly. So you believe that once a Shard becomes aware of certain investiture, they will invest more in that place over time? Why would there awareness make a difference if the power was there to begin with? Investing, while sometimes unconscious, is also clearly able to be a conscious act otherwise every Shard would be invested everywhere as there power is everywhere. Considering you have it backwards, this doesn't really help your case. Uli Da and Rayse had the big fight on/near Threnody then Uli Da fled and was splintered/killed elsewhere. Even if your order of events is correct, we have no particular evidence that her investiture was the "dominant flavor" there before chunks got ripped off during her fight. This is the WoB people are using to argue that Stormlight is purely Honor's investiture?! "comparable to Preservation's mist", "would it be like cultivationlight" and the response of "in the same sort of vein" combine to make it so vague as to be useless in saying Stormlight is pure Honor, that is speculation only. All that proves is she has her own investiture, which we could have guessed, and that Stormlight isn't just Cultivation, which no one thought anyway. But it doesn't give us anything to suggest Stormlight is only of Honor.

You seemed to have been implying it was corrupted by Odium, not humans. I dont think a human can corrupt a Spren and I think if Odium could corrupt Godspren he would have already and we wouldn't have any of them. I think the Sibling having been bonded during the Recreance and wounded by it seems more likely, but thats just theory too.

Certainly possible, I just disagree. There is no real evidence either way at this point, we'll have to wait and see. I said most investiture. An even distribution is unlikely as the evidence suggests it was assigned randomly which isnt the same as evenly. That said there is almost certainly some pre-shattering investiture on Roshar that is assigned to other shards, I just doubt it's a significant amount. Everything else you've said about the mechanics of investing in a planet and formation of magic systems has no bearing on what I said. The investiture akready present on Roshar could all belong to one Shard and it still wouldn't prevent another Shard investing there. Just that the pre-invested investiture belonged wasn't theirs. Odium and Endowment, your examples, could invest their by using their investiture without needing their own investiture to already be present.

Originally Roshar and Highstorms were created by Adonalsium and all investiture was his. Once he was shattered all investiture was assigned to one of the 16 shards and they could claim it once they became aware of it. It seems likely that most investiture on Roshar was assigned to Honor and Cultivation.

We know thay both Skai and Ambition fought back, I dont believe we have confirmation Odium was actually wounded but it makes sense. He is referred to as "scarred" or "the broken one" so some kind of wound could be implied, or it could refer to how he was forced to invest in Roshar/Braize.

My only issue with this is the Stornfather claims the Sibling was hurt by humans, which shouldn't have happened if the Sibling just upped and left voluntarily.

How are they designed to use it? The Honorblades are designed for their use, but Stormlight wasn't the fuel of the Honorblades. The Heralds were fueled directly by Honor, we don't if this changed the effect or efficiency of the investiture or not. But considering they were never supposed to "hold Stormlight", it seems likely (might be a WoB, I'm not 100%), that they are less efficient than a normal Knight. That and we don't know for sure that Stormlight is purely Honors investiture as has already been said. Nale is weird as he is also a 5th Ideal Radiant. We still haven't seen a non-Radiant Herald hold Stormlight.

Nightblood's sheath is referred to as silver on two worlds, Nalthis and Roshar. But it's still not made of silver. I just don't see any evidence that makes it more likely to be silver than any other silver colored metal. When you take into account silver's lack of suitability for a sword and limited usefulness magically, other options seem more likely. But I guess we'll have to wait and see if/when Brandon tell us.

That one paraphrased WoB is all the evidence we have and it could be read equally as the material sister or colored silver, hardly definitive either way. Nightbloods sheath is also repeatedly referred to as "silver" but we know it is not.

Hoid has a sword that look silver in color, I would be amazed if it was actually made of silver. They don't seem comparable, Wax, Heralds and Returned can all affect the physical because they have physical bodies. Shades seem different, at least from the little we know, by not having one. Do something to your cognitive aspect that changes you in the physical = a method of affecting the physical, so the point is moot. God metals don't carry investiture, they are investiture. Regular metal is a channel for investiture (consumed when doing so). If anything "carries" investiture it would be a full or partially full metalmind.

Oh absolutely, I love Kal. My point was that going into book 1 there is no emotional connection there, it is the writing that made us like him. Venli hasnt really had much page time yet so I am witholding judgement until she has. Valid interpretation, I read it more as being in the wholenseries outline. Either way though, I agree with Brandon thay Eshonai would have been too similar to other characters but that's just my opinion. Kalak is pure speculation on my part I admit. But he is the Herald of the Willshapers and he is in or has been in contact with Nale. Since Nale is now with the listeners and could easily meet Venli, Kalak showing up and meeting the newest member of his order doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility. But like I said, just speculation on my part. I think Listener culture will be hugely relevant, Venli teaching the normal singers about it was her last line in Oathbringer after all. If/when a non-Odium aligned group of Singers forms, their traditional culture should increase in importance. Even more if Thude and the others survived and show up with Rlain. I agree with you for the most part on everything, I guess I am just less worried in this case.

This a a fair point, but we didn't know Kaladin in WoK either and he turned out alright. Likewise I actively disliked Shallan in WoK put much preferred her after WoR so I don't see being unfamilar or her not having a place in my heart as something to really worry about. Kaladin and Dalinar didn't interact until the end of WoK though, but they had their own individual supporting cast. I can't see why Venli would be any different, she isn't just going to be left completely alone for an entire book. Venli has been the intended character since "fairly early on" in the outlining process for the series. This is not a recent development. Not liking the Eshonai/Venli twist is fine, but I wouldn't worry that Venli is being shoe-horned in at the last minute. Thude! Nailed it. You will see other character in book 4. Kaladin didn't disappear in book 2 and Shallan was still a main character in book 3. I agree it annoying that we won't get some flashbacks until the back half but we were always going to have to wait to see some of the stories. This book we will continue the story of the existing characters, admittedly with less page time, but we will also learn a bunch more stuff. What Venli will do, what Rlain is doing, what happened to the Listeners, Singer/Listener culture, info on the Fused/Unmade, Kalak and Willshapers etc. are all things we could learn about in this book, which are awesome. We are unlikely to focus purely on the "amnesiacs" when we have Venli, Listeners, Rlain, Fused etc, so hopefully that won't be an issue. And things like Rlains backstory are likely to be addressed too, if there is anything to learn, just not through flashbacks. I understand your concerns, but it does seem like you're looking at it very negatively. Brandon has done things I have disagreed with before but he always comes through.

I doubt they had a choice. Keeping bacteria and viruses alive and in a host isn't as easy as it sounds. Combine the usual difficulty with a world destroying cataclysm and a conpletely new planet/environment and I imagine all Ashyn bacteria/viruses on Roshar died shortly before or after the humans arrival.

I know Nightblood can kill fused, but unless Odium is going to take the Fused with him to Nalthis then it doesn't matter. Nightblood isn't dangerous to Odium, just his minions, and it seems likely that his usual splintering method doesn't require minions, limiting Nightbloods utility in a direct Shard v Shard conflict. I also thing the "ramifications" are Stormlight only ones when the Fused realise they can die, but its open for interpretation.