Jace21

That pretty much sums it up The 3rd point is basically related to the definition of identity and the influence it has over investiture use. I dont think we have enough hard and fast info either way to be sure right now, but the debate is fun! This is my understanding of Identity as well, it's so fundamental to the Cosmere you can't easily ignore it. I don't know exactly how it works with investiture that is in and of itself sentient but I think it is likely it works the same as any other investiture keyed to someones identity.

We are at an impasse it seems I agree deadblades have a mind, albeit switched off. I just think that a switched off mind would prevent them permitting investiture to effect them, I dont think subconscious would be enough. Good point, I think size would definitely work. I am sure there's another way too though, otherwise the WoBs we have about certain possible but inefficient forgeries don't work. What I wouldnt give for an interview with Shai. I think Identity is what lets any investiture be linked to a mind. If investiture is sentient of its own accord then it's own investiture is keyed to it's own identity. If I'm right then a Sprens power to permit investiture on its own body would be the same as a Radiant with his Plate. If I'm wrong then investiture resists investiture as a natural property, which can't be overcome through will. I cant change the way physical matter effect me just because I have a mind, I dont see why investiture would be different.

1. I think Maya proves my point, unless I have forgotten something. When do we see any conscious kr subconscious thought from her before sge begins waking/ forming a bond with Adolin? 2. Thats a fair point, I am not sure how you could increase the investiture used though, I doubt every forgery uses the whole power of the Dor. 3. Sure it would! Identity is significant for this kind of thing, it's why your own investiture doesnt interfere with itself. If the investiture itself resists, "permission" shouldn't matter. If I throw a rock at a wall it will bounce off, the same as I will if I run at it. The fact I am alive and permit myself to pass through the wall doesnt matter.

We can be reasonably sure he is opposed to Odium at least for now in SA. I am more sure of that than a lot of things that are outrighted stated. That said, I could totally see Hoid as a future antagonist. Not that he is secretly evil, or even that what he wants is bad, just that his goals will be in opposition to one or more future protagonists. After all, we have been warned.

Sorry, do you mean Azir? I apologise if I sound picky, it's just a little confusing since their is a character named Azure. I could definitely see a huge improvement in gender equality in the military. Between the example of the Radiants and the desperate circumstances I think we have enough of a catalyst there. I dont think it will spread to all parts of society though, it would be odd for non-military gender roles to change so quickly.

I see what you're getting at, but I see it differently. We are talking about Deadblades here, which without a bond are, for all intents and purposes, mindless. They scream yes, but they don't seem to be conscious enough to permit themselves Forged, putting them in the same camp as Plate. Likewise for the purposes of this debate, Forgery and Lashing work the same. Both are attempts by someone external to change the (spiritual) properties of an object. In forgeries case it is to rewrite it's past, for a Lashing it is a change to how it is effected by gravity. The end result is irrelevant, both are changes forced on an object by a 3rd party using investiture. Even if the Blade was aware enough to give "permission" how is it different to a person giving "permission" for an invested object keyed to their identity (Plate) which is clearly impossible?

I dont think it does. Remember in Dalinar's vision in order for one Radiant to be lashed they had to remove their Shardplate. Their obvious willingness to be lashed didn't make a difference. Investiture resists investiture, itseems to be a hard and fast rule even if we dont know all the details yet.

I think you hit the nail in the head here. While Brandon could be forshadowing her personality issues or a case of mistaken identity, it seems more likely it is just the natural reaction of an inexperienced teenage girl being approached by a handsome, high ranking young man.

But you can also be Devoted to someone, which is much harder to seperate, as it would usually include Compassion for them. The dark side thing is very true though.

No worries I get what you're saying, i just disagree. Personally when I think of something as weak, I dont see it as relative to anything else, I see it as whether or not an arbitrary bench mark has been met. At the end of the day though, I still dont think Weakness fits with the rest of the Shards as one of Adonalsium's traits, but i could be wrong. Guess we'll have to RAFO

Sure, much like how any argument can be taken to an extreme and made to seem ridiculous, Reductio Ad Absurdam. But the definitions, relative or not, of Weakness, Honour and Devotion are hardly in the same league as "Doorways". Either way this is a tangent that doesn't change anything either way, I don't think Weakness is Shard for previously stated reasons.

Which is itself dependent on how you define weak. All Shards, including Weakness if it were one, require a frame of reference for context. Weakness with regards to physical strength is only relative if you want to compare. Otherwise you could define "weak" as "can't do 100 push ups" and you the term is no longer relative. Devotion is no more or less relatice than "Weakness" and we already know thats a Shard. It is the definition of the intent that is important, as much for Weakness as for Honour. Like I said I have other issues with Weakness as a Shard, this isn't one of them.

I'll give you that, I am struggling to describe what I mean when have to use quite ambiguous terms. I suppose what I mean is that they are forces in as much as they are incredibly powerful and driven to do a certain thing obsessively (preserve, ruin, cultivate) they are not just passive forces such as usually exist in our universe. Ruin has been described as the embodiment of entropy, for example. But entropy in our universe is a gradual movement toward disorder, or randomness, almost always involving breaking things down. But entropy isn't actively trying to destroy the world, it is just something that happens by itself. There is no specific "preservation" force in our universe but Ruin himself says that the Shard pushed back even when not directed by a mind. It wasn't just natural tendencies or molecular bonds resisting Ruin, it was active opposition by power that needs/desires/is compelled to Preserve. Ado definitely wasn't human I agree. He may have been at some point but not by the time he was shattered. Likewise I wouldn't classify the Vessels as human anymore, they have been too changed by the power they wield. But whether he was a relatable being or something more, the intents came from him. And I think that since the current intents are an active will to do/achieve something, it must be because a part of Adonalsium had the will to do/achieve that thing. What makes them now able be considered forces is the lack of context surrounding that singular drive. This WoB is weird, he says they can have a big effect on how it is interpreted, but at the same time the intent is always the same. The interpretation I like, admittedly my opinion is like having 10 possible interpretations of the word "Honor". Pre-shattering Adonalsium subscribed to 5 of those so the intent of Honor focuses on those 5. As the vessel Tanavast could then filter it through any combination of 1 or more of those 5 interpretations. But he couldn't decide that he preferred interpretation 7 and use that because it was never a part of the intent to begin with, even if it a meaning most people could accept. That way it accounts for the huge variation in possible meanings of a word while accepting that in many ways Ado invented the concepts (as related to the Shards). Hopefully I did a better job explaining myself that time, though I doubt I will convince anyone Fun conversation though! This I actually don't have an issue with. All of the Shards are relative terms, Honor, Autonomy, Odium etc. all have multiple possible meanings when viewed by us, it all depends how Ado and the Vessels interpret it.

Ruin as the comination of Ati holding the Shard of Ruin is seen to be a force by non-cosmere aware people, sure. But Ruon as formed when Adonalsium first shattered? I still maintain it is the desire to destroy. After all, all the shards are all capable of the same things, it is only the intent (desire/compulsion) that changes. Impact? Yes. Big impact? Debatable. But even so, all the vessel can do is guide the intent already there (Adonalsium's view) so my point still stands.

Except as I said earlier in the thread, I don't believe they are forces of nature. After all Odium/Hatred is independent of amy single being, but is defined as "God's own divine hatred". The Shards of Ruin, Preservation and Cultivation then are not forces of nature in themselves, but Adonalsium's desire to Ruin/Preserve/Cultivate assigned to 1/16th of his power. Autonomy and Weakness could both have multiple meanings, true, as you say they mean different things to diffferent people. But whatever meaning(s) apply will be because they applied to Adonalsium, other peoples opinion doesnt matter. So while I agree that the concept of weakness depends on definition, it is for that reason I think any "weaknesses" Adonalsium has would fall under another trait. Eg. He was weak because he wouldnt kill his attackers (preservation). I see weakness more as a consequence than as a fundamental trait or belief by itself.

Literal vulnerability to death is not the same as weakness as a personality trait that could be assigned as a Shard. The Shards currently known seem to be more like aspects of a personality not literal things like "killable". An unwillingness to defend himself could have contributed to his death, sure, but it would be the unwillingness that got a Shard named after it, not the fact he can die itself. As you say several shards could be interpreted as part of Adonalsiums willingness to die, Devotion (love for attackers), Preservation (of his attackers), Ruin (self-directed), Odium (self-loathing), Autonomy (allow attackers their freedom).

I disagree. The shattering could have gone other ways =/= shards are not what Adonalsium was. You are making a lot of assumption here. We don't know if Rayse wanted to be Odium specifically. He could have just wanted power that left his mind intact and Odium matched the best. We don't know why Ati got Ruin, we know Ati believed that all things must end and was a generous man, but as far as I know the idea that he wanted to contain the damage is only theory. What we do know is the Rayse "bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context". Regardless of how shards were assigned this heavily implies the traits they embody were all part of Adonalsium. Not his only traits(could have shattered differently), but they were still present, making a shard of weakness unlikely. I think a Vessel-to-be having doubts (if that is what influenced the way Adonalsium split, also unknown) would have received something like "Caution" rather than Weakness.

Knowing what I do of Brandon's personal beliefs, I doubt he would make a defining trait of Adonalsium be weakness. For the most the Shards seem to be based on personality traits and weakness doesn't really fit.

For the most part my imaginings match the descriptions. The main exception being Kelsier amd Marsh who I had forgotten were blonde until this thread. I always picture Kelsier as having slicked back brown hair, like Neil Caffrey from White Collar.

She has already accepted it. Dalinar already decided this is not the time for a regency so that isn't an option. She may abdicate and pass the throne back to Gavinor (I believe she will) but until then she will be queen, not regent.

Dalinar's visions repeat, so even if it had been 3 months since the first vision he could have been on his twelfth, depends if he is counting the repeats or not.

I don't think we have any hard and fast proof, but I can talk you through my reasoning: 1. I don't think the closeness to or ability to see into the cognitive realm makes any difference. If it was that simple, Adolin would have heard his blade screaming when he was in Shadesmar and he didn't. 2. Singers bond with spren in their gemhearts to control their form. This doesn't seem to overly affect their interactions with other spren. The bond with a blade is completely different, relying on the more Spiritual bond between blade and wielder, completely unrelated to Listener forms. Since the two bonds work on different mechanics I doubt the one would change the other. I DO think that Eshonai should have heard screaming though, I am just not sure if she was close enough to Radiancy before she bonded the Voidspren.

To the best of our knowledge, Chromium would be just as effective a scabbard for Nightblood as any other metal, Aluminum and Godmetals excluded. Which is to say not very. Aside from the similarity of Allomantic effects, which have nothing to do with the actual physical properties of the metals, there is nothing odd about Chromium that would suggest if could resist investiture in the same way. While you are right that most Shardworlds probably don't have Chromium, Scadrial certainly does and I am sure they would have noticed if it interacted with allomancy outside of its own effect.

Ati thought Leras broke his promise but I dont think he did. As Calderis said, in MB:SH he tells Kelsier that he deliberately left a loophole in the agreement. If anything the fact that he needed to create the loophole supports the fact that he couldnt just break his promise. He says that "Even before the Fused learned to command the surges, men could not fight them." A little bit of wiggle room there. I thonk there had to have been something special about the fused or they wouldnt have been any more dangerous tham the Singer they replaced. But even if you're right it doesnt make muche difference, it was their inability to die that forced the Oathpact. @Calderis, I should have known it would be you. The one quote I found that pokes a hole. There a lot of options that still let the theory work, such as: 1. It is due to Honor and Cultivation that Odium is bound by his promise. 2. The Stormfather is referring the effect of the Oathpact itself. 3. Stormfather believes 1 is true, being ignorant of the greater Cosmere. 4. Stormfather is just wrong. The only one I think has a reasonable chance of being right is 3. And I am still not sold. So while I like the elegance and simplicity of the theory, I don't have a good answer to that one, even though I still feel like I'm onto something.

Given your timeline: SA 6 - 340 years after catacendre Current SA - 320 years after catacendre Vasher trains Adolin - 305 years after Catacendre Warbreaker - ???? Manywar - about 300 years before Warbreaker, say min 285. That would give us at about 20 years from the End of Warbreaker until Vasher train Adolin, during which Nightblood happens, he moves to Roshar and becomes an Ardent. Incredibly unlikely yes, but all I claimed was that it was possible. That said, I think Nightblood was made pre-Catacendre too, even ignoring tge timing issue, I dont think Sazed is Cosmere aware enough to have worked with another shard in another solar system to create a sword that mixes both Shards investiture.