WhiteLeeopard

Both are good points. Maybe Amaram just needed more page time. Moash...yeah no, Moash was doomed to the dark side. I'm not really sure he was planning to fight against the Fused. Even before he saw the lighteyes put in charge what did he enjoy the most? Seeing a lighteyes carrying water (pettiness, revenge, hatred). He wandered around the camp miffed he was a slave instead of been questioned (he wanted to be important/have attention/not be forgotten). I just think he wanted always to walk the mentally easier path. He didn't shy from physical labor, but he just refused to ever tread mentally complex ideas. He just wanted the world to be white and black.

The way I see it, Shallan said the 4th ideal before she was ready because it was either say it or all the alethi army died. I think when a KR is close enough to their next ideal but not quite ready they can say it, but they can have a bad backlash from an Oath said before they are ready for it. I think Kaladin could have said the 4th ideal, because he knew the words, it was just very hard for him as he wasn't quite ready. If Dalinar hadn't made the perpendicularity then Kaladin would have likely said the 4th Oath, saved the day, then been a mess for a few months as he came to terms with having said an Ideal a bit too early. I understand why Shallan regressed, but I still hated it. Shallan was so boring for me, even more than in TWoK. I'll probably skip her chapters on re-reads same as I do in WoK and first part of WoR. It was interesting when she spoke with Hoid, but the rest of her was yawn-worthy. Moash wasn't a 180. You can dessert, you can betray your country, you can lie, cheat, steal, but if you betray your friends you are rotten to the core and there is nothing that can fix you. It was obvious from the end of WoR he'd walk the most vile path imaginable. Main character that was tossed to the wind was Amaram. Teft also caught me by surprise. Nale's reasoning still seems bogus for me. I'm a bit surprised Szeth swore to Dalinar and not Kaladin, as Kaladin made more sense simply because he is a Windrunner, and Szeth shouldn't know much of Dalinar. Those were my main surprises that I wouldn't have predicted characterwise based on their personality and past actions.

Thing is, most of the first pages of this thread were made by people that had been dissecting the first part of the book in the weekly releases we got before OB. Since we got 3 chapters every Tuesday we looked even into the color of the clothes each person was wearing, so we had already gotten out our laughs and memes from the first 2 moments you mention. I absolutely recommend going to the meme page of OB, as I wouldn't be surprised if Pattern is this book's mvp in memes made. I also loved that someone suggested the first issue you talk about was the real reason for the Recreance .

I just think his original spren was his current highspren. It could be there was no great conspiracy with the Shamans to name Szeth Truthless, they just wanted to protect themselves. Its even possible no-one knew he was a potential Surgebinder, and just assumed his abilities came from the Honorblade. His spren was obviously hurt on the intervening years, but bounced back once he swore the right Oaths. We've seen Syl revive unharmed once Kaladn spoke the next Oaths. Of course its been years with Szeth's spren comatose, so it may be why s/he is so shy and hasn't appeared to him yet. Of course, its just as likely that Szeth bonded a new spren who is just terrified of manifesting, as a spren really needs to be brave to even bond a guy already bonded to an investiture eating/spren killing/always hungry sword. Still...the idea of a third spren around Szeth seems too much, as we could easily be talking of 4-6 surges. Only thing I know is I'm sorry Szeth's book won't be next, as there are so many mysteries surrounding him.

Thats the theory, but if there are spren in Shinovar they are probably very, very few. And there is no reason I can thnk of for that, as the only thing different in Shinovar that might affect spren are no highstorms. Random question, do highstorms reach Aimia?

I think we should be careful of assuming spren all behave the same way because they are from one group. The way I see it each spren type has some characteristics, and tend to have similar views, but thats not a rule, as at the end of the day they are individuals with their own ideas. Syl was obviously a rebel, Timbre was also obviously unique in her decision to bond parsh instead of humans and even spren of her species were decided not to bond anyone. Spark is probably not the norm for Dustbringer spren in been a traitor, and I bet there is a highspren that could disagree with Nale's belief and go its own way. On how Szeth knew he could swear the Third Oath, maybe it was a bit of arrogance. Szeth tends not to undersell, or oversell himself, he knew he was amazing with the Surges, and he knew he had followed the law to perfection for 7+ years. What more could a highspren want? I'm still not convinced the spren he has bonded isn't his original spren though. P.s. I can totally imagine a scene either on book 4 or on the intervening year where Szeth is begging Nightblood not to be jaleous of his bond with the spren, and promising that using his normal Shardblade does not mean Szeth doesn't value and appreciate Nightblood .

I somehow doubt this because the spren that he bonds on OB seemed to be really easy to bond with, so I assume its the same spren from long ago. Szeth is just perfect for the Skybreakers, as he has always followed laws to a psychotic level. It would be unusual at the very least if someone so obsessed with the rules could also be a good match for the Truthwatchers (or any other order, since Skybreakers don't mesh too well with any other order I've seen so far). Final point... Szeth already has access to too many powers. Nightblood, highspren he has bonded, we add a third spren to the mix and things get very very unlikely. Your post was very nice .

And since you are Unhinged does that mean you are one of the creepy, dun sphere minds Fused?

Reading The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance before Oathbringer came out: After Oathbringer

Actually, in my opinion the most important piece of information from that time was that spren bonding humans created KR, and that Shardblades were spren. We saw all over TWoK and WoR how scholars had been trying for centuries to make Sharblades. And yes, the truth was once commonly known and it was totally lost. The reason for the Recreance is the most important piece now, but for centuries there was another very important bit of knowledge scholars and countries wanted, and they got zip on it. In WoR we see people didn't even fully believe KR had powers, and just had those ideas as myths and stories. Its not even convenient that all knowledge of KR is so muddled/gone, when that is specifically the knowledg the Hierocracy wanted to bury.

Maybe they talked, but Roshar is a wonderful place for knowledge to become lost. Humans didn't even know Shardblades were spren once by the time TWoK starts, and that was surely common knowledge back at the Recreance. And they still don't know for sure how Plate works. I'm always happy to assume any past knowledge missing was destroyed in the chaos of the Recreance, then whipped out by the Hierocracy, then any tidbits left removed by Vorinism.

Its possible spren did not purposefully hide what they were planning, but rather that all (or most) of the unbonded spren were still children and too young to understand. If that were the case they wouldn't know why humans broke their Oaths and they wouldn't care, all they would see was all their parents were dead because of humans. At the same time, I personally find the spren to be remarkably nice to KR and open to the idea of bonding humans again. Honorspren didn't come only because the Stormfather forbade it, but as soon as Syl bonded Kaladin many of them started bonding his squires or flitting around considering the bond at least. Captain Ico was not thrilled with the party in Shadesmar at first, but by the end of the trip he had mellowed a lot and was rather friendly with them. The spren they meet at customs that distracts the Voidspren while they run was almost crying in happiness that humans were bonding spren again. Even Notum started off angry and treating them like prisioners but was quite happy with Kaladin and company and willing to fight Voidspren for them while they ran at the end.

I think that there is more to the Recreance. Additionally, the Recreance fell flat for many here because we had already guessed humans were the invaders and parsh the original people of Roshar, so it wasn't as much a reveal as a confirmation. On the Adolin arc, I don't get why people keep saying it was messed up. I found it quite logical and fell within my expectations. Simply put, politics, conspiracies and social issues are for peace times when you got nothing more serious to worry about, so what spoon you eat with is a huge social topic. In times of war, people's priorities straighten out remarkably fast. As a real life example, before WWII britain was doing sincerely dumb things, when the war started they removed the politicians and put the country on the hands of a militant without a second thought. On standard Roshar Sadeas was a great topic, and a man with a lot of influence. He got murdered while the Desolation started? He got the attention worthy of the topic, he was forgotten. The real consequences were Amaram was promoted, and Sadeas soldiers lost what little discipline they had so were easily taken over by Odium in Thaylen.

While I could see that happening, it would be hard to pull off. Keep in mind the Shin have (had) 9 Honorblades, and they had people training with them. They probably took ocassional trips to Shadesmar, and the Unmade deception would fall appart the moment the Shin Elsecaller Honorblade holder saw its real form. And Szeth seemed to say they worshipped spren in general, but no particular one. Although he wasn't too specific.

Its entirely possible the Shin truly believe they won and there will be no more Desolations. Maybe they don't stockpile Shards (assuming this part of the theory is right) to use them on the next Desolation. However, maybe they stockpile Shards so no-one can use them to destroy as they are pacifistic (apparently) and want creation rather than destruction to occur at a large scale. Basically follow your theory without the final conclusion of preparing for the Desolation, and just take the Shards our of circulation.

Nice theory. I've always been very interested on the Shin, and off the top of my head the timeline works relatively well (give or take a few centuries). Thing is, people tend to remember the names of conquerors and generals while they forget the timing of scientific advances. If you asked someone "Ever heard of Julius Caesar?" They would talk for a while. Yet if you asked, "Do you know when mortar was invented?" They would stare at you blankly (usually). Advances are important and recorded by scholars and scientists, but that kind of information is more fragile than the legends and stories of emperors and kings of old. Also...there are so many purges of information in Roshar that their historical records are always very recent. Humans basically started off zero knowledge after Aharietam. Then the False Desolation, the Recreance, the Hierocracy and Vorinism and its million lies and errors taken as fact mean that their current knowledge of the past (even recent past) is beyond warped. Szeth was a respected member of Shin society before becoming Truthless. Its likely they didn't want him to go out with he Honorblade, but their customs and society dictated he must keep the Honorblade all his life or something along those lines. You may be on to something .

I suspected since long before OB that Szeth was a Stone Shaman, so the circumstances for him were very unique.

Thats a very good point. Mainly because its very hard Kaladin would forgive Szeth. Szeth killed several of Bridge 4, and we all know what Kaladin thinks of that. But if its the only way to survival...people will do incredible things to survive.

While it is a nice theory I am unconvinced. Mainly because Jezrien was saying he recognized an Unmade's touch on Dalinar, but wasn't sure which. Secondly because Jezrien seemed a lot more together on the prologue of TWoK. He was broken, but compared to his state as Ahu he was stunningly lucid, and by that point in the story the 9 known Unmade were already running around. I'm sure there are more reasons, but at a simple glance it looked like Jezrien was killed because he was the most vulnerable (and handy?) of the Heralds. The others are bonkers, but they still are dangerous, often stirring up a huge ruckus (Ishtar for example). Jezrien was the most lost of the heralds we had seen. Then again, I also suspect the fact that they had Jezrien's Honorblade passing around also influenced the decision to kill him, for some reason.

Thing is, when something like identity theft is going on there are clues, little details that make one go -wait a second-. With Ash absolutely everything is pointed at her been Shalash. Shalash is the Herald of beauty, and every single time Ash appears its pointed out she is so beautiful its almost impossible. When Jezrien dies, and Ash goes through one of the most shocking and experiences of her thousands of years she cried out father. And I think there is a Death Rattle saying Daughter of kings, scratching out her own eyes. I guess Ash could be Chana, but it seems hard. My main problem with Lyss as Chana is that she owned Szeth and gave him away. Seems...strange to sell him, or to buy him in the first place, as she should have recognized an Honorblade holder in a heartbeat.

Maybe. We haven't met Moelach so I wasn't sure what state would he be in. But if Re-shephir is considered sentient maybe the ideas of sentient or mindless Unmade should be slightly revised...

I'm not 100% sure Gavilar meant the Parshendi when he said "Don't let them take it". He could have meant the GB, the other SoH, Sadeas, etc, etc.

Thats because Kaladin's bond was intact for the 4v1 duel. He made the promise to help Moash kill Elhokar just after the duel. His powers immediately started malfunctioning from there on and Syl regressed to mid TWoK state.

Honestly I think the Coalition's biggest achievement so far is bringing Lift in with the rest of the cast. Its entirely possible the coalition's main purpose will be to bring the KR together. If they can refound the order fast enough while allowing free passing through each other's oathgates it may be enough for humanity to keep their edge. Being perfectly fair, the coalition is not bad. They are having a lot of attacks both from outside (Odium, Unmade, Fused, Everstorm) and from within (Taravangian). It is somewhat alike to the problem in Kholinar. If Kholinar had been united and strong they could have held practically forever. However they had Unmade inside, Fused and humans that had switched sides all weakening the city from within. And as we saw in Kholinar the Coaltion needs to shore up their weakness inside or there is no way they will be able to suceed.

Szeth and Nightblood are definetely a match made in the Tranquilline Halls, as I bet Szeth would be touched by the Valentine and think he has the best sword ever .