cometaryorbit

Hmm, right. But I mean - is there a way that the Sibling would accept to make the kinds of fabrials that require non-sapient spren?

I think Syl's special status among the honorspren - as "the Ancient Daughter" - may be a hint at this (ie Kaladin's Tanavast-like qualities attracted her). Yeah it could just be "same author". But I think there might be a real connection. It's not just being really good at it the way, say, Adolin is really good at dueling or Vasher is really good at Awakening - its the way they both instinctively do complex stuff with the magic system, including stuff that's otherwise unknown but seems natural to them (Vin's horseshoe flight trick, Kaladin protecting people from the storm). I don't think any of the other main Stormlight characters, or Raoden in Elantris, or Vivenna in Warbreaker, or Wax and Wayne in Era 2 Mistborn work like this.

Hmm. Maybe. In a stone age situation I don't know how much rebuilding infrastructure/public order stuff would really be workable. I'm sure they'd try, but all the Radiants of all orders? Even the Skybreakers, Dustbringers, Elsecallers? (If Jasnah was faced with that situation, I think she'd see the long-term problem of increasingly frequent Desolations as more important than immediate issues. And she seems pretty willing to suggest things like this- e.g. let's kill all the Heralds, in OB. So I don't think Elsecaller oaths would prevent it.) And if it were tried by even a few Radiants it would probably succeed... eventually. If you started a Desolation with only 5,000 or 10,000 singers left, they'd most all become Forms of Power or Fused and be killed... would enough make it through to preserve the species? Warform has very real advantages ... but they don't really help with the things you need to fight flying Radiants - mobility, a way to get past Radiant healing, and a way to block or survive Shardblades. Vs normal soldiers, the advantages are major- warform strength is significantly better than un-boosted human, and they have better armor ... but armor is useless against a Shardblade. No Forms of Power between Desolations (until Ba-ado-Mishram changed things for the False Desolation).

I'm skeptical that "Child of Tanavast" means literal biological descent -- its been so many generations that if there were any biological descendants they'd be a significant fraction of the population, maybe basically everyone. I think it's likely an Identity or Connection type thing, Kaladin being an incredibly Tanavast-like personality which has some kind of Spiritual Realm effect. (The Stormfather is Tanavast's *Cognitive* Shadow, besides being a spren... but time is not really a thing in the *Spiritual*. Could Kaladin be connecting to some Spiritual aspect of Tanavast-as-he-was?) I think this might explain Kaladin being super good with limited practice, just as (Mistborn Era 1)

Yep, pretty much!

I think a lot of the Intents, if not all, are incomplete -- they are after all Shards of a whole. I would tend to expect Ambition to be more like "increase my own power/significance/importance" rather than simply "pursue goals" ... especially given the corruptive/contagious nature of Shades on Threnody, which I think might be influenced by an Odium/Ambition mix (expanding hatred/spreading corruption). Whimsy might be a Change type Shard, not controlled growth like Cultivation or destruction/decay like Ruin, but change for the sake of being different.

Perhaps I read that too literally/pedantically, sorry. A lot of people do kind of talk like evolution is only happening when there is an obvious major change... like it's the exception rather than the rule.

Bizarrely I got Edgedancer second, which is weird, I dont see myself as nice, thoughtful, or graceful enough for that. (Truthwatcher first was obvious for me, but I would have guessed Elsecaller or Lightweaver second, going the other way on the chart...) I'd argue that there is an ethical difference between truth (in the Truthwatcher-ish sense implying understanding) and information. Truth per se is probably always good, but information even if factual can be used to deceive (out of context information being misleading, etc), partial but factual knowledge can be dangerous (we know how to do X but don't know the full consequences of doing X, eg environmental problems), as can knowledge without wisdom (not using technology wisely).

I don't think Stormlight runs out *that* fast, that you'd use up large gems (not just spheres) Lashing some rocks around. As for strength of buildings... hmm. I was figuring that since the humans were repeatedly knocked back to stone age and they *won*, the Singers between desolations must also have been stone age and thus probably at least semi-nomadic... thus no large/sturdy buildings. But that could be a totally wrong assumption. OTOH I don't know how much stone fortifications would help. Mistborn Era 1 At 3rd ideal, a Skybreaker is I think better in a fight than a Mistborn, though much less capable in other situations (no Mental or sensory powers). I don't think giving the defending soldiers Warform abilities helps that much. Oh surely there were significant times of peace... certainly post Last Desolation, and likely between the early Desolations centuries apart.. But it's more a question of, when the Desolations were coming closer and closer together toward the end, the Radiants must have been getting desperate, seeing civilization falling & humanity probably doomed.. what kept the Orders with more flexible concepts of honor, or even a relatively small number of members of those Orders, from trying something like this?

Technically speaking, every living population evolves, all the time. A state of zero evolution (Hardy Weinberg equilibrium) involves conditions impossible to meet in the real world (infinite population size, zero mutations, etc.) That doesn't mean that obvious change is necessarily happening (stabilizing selection is a thing, where mutations are selected against to maintain the current high fitness state). Even if hypothetically every individual survived and reproduced equally -- thus no natural selection occurred -- mutations would still accumulate over time. And genetic drift is still possible (thus the "infinite population size" criterion). Natural selection is the *primary* driver / mechanism for evolution but not the *only* one. At least that's a population genetics perspective, where evolution is about changes in allele frequencies over time. A paleontologist, who can only see fairly overt changes in physiology, might talk about it differently.

Yes, and Szeth is not a Cognitive Shadow- unlike Kelsier and Fused. His soul is kind of messed up since he was close to the time limit, but not a Shadow.

I think it is. Hemalurgy primarily changes the Spiritual aspect/spiritweb, the Physical changes as a result. Often in odd ways- the iron spikes used to make koloss steal human physical strength; continuing growth, turning blue, and weird non-size-matching skin are not direct attributes transferred, but some kind of side effect of the spiritweb change. I don't see what any external Investiture would be doing, though. Except maybe to allow the spike to interact with the spiritweb? But I don't think that kind of thing actually involves pulling investiture from the Spiritual/a Shard, any more than a Feruchemist needs to pull Investiture to start storing.

Sure they could potentially be run out of stormlight by many wounds. But I don't see a fight like this lasting long enough to allow that. Surprise aerial attack with Lashed rocks, set stuff on fire with Division, then attack with Shardblade while flying around with Gravitation. Sure a 3rd ideal skybreaker wouldn't have Plate or Reverse Lashing, but their mobility is good enough that hitting a ton of times is not going to happen. (They certainly won't have much time to try.) And nothing keeps them from wearing normal armor (and since Lashing flight is gravity based, and they can do a partial Lashing upwards to lighten themselves on land, it wouldn't even reduce their mobility). I think you are really underestimating how huge an advantage Surges plus a Shardblade plus Stormlight enhancement/healing give over non-powered opponents. BTW. I am not arguing this should have been done (it obviously shouldn't, morally). What I am arguing is that given how helpless non-powered individuals are against Radiants, the Radiants probably as part of their honor made sure nothing like this happened. Because the thought *is* obvious, and given that any singer can become Fused there probably would not be a strong idea of "civilians" in this kind of war.

Why is that, though? I really can't see Honor (bonds and oaths) + Cultivation (controlled/directed/shaped growth) combining to make something like "Science". Science sounds more like Cultivation of Knowledge, not Cultivation of Honor. These might just be in-world names not based on particularly deep understanding of the Intent. "Warlight" may just be called that because Honor's and Odium's forces are currently at war. An actual War Intent would probably involve Valor as well. And I think Honor being about natural laws is also an in-world understanding trying to fit everything into a framework of just Honor/Cultivation/Odium, without a wider cosmere awareness. Honor didn't actually create natural laws, as human/singer/etc life existed pre-Shattering, so physics must have worked basically the same before. The Intent of Honor is really more about oaths, bonds in the sense of choosing to be bound by your intentions/words etc. That's a good fit... though I've suggested Evolution for Harmony+Cultivation before (preserving continuity/elements of the past, destroying what does not survive, growing).

It seems very similar to the Fused, yes. But perhaps the mechanism would be a bit different, since I think Fused use the singer body's gemheart, and humans don't have that. Kelsier on Scadrial found a way to get a new body, but that seems to have used Hemalurgy. The end of Bands of Mourning suggests there's some other kind of body-possessing thing on Scadrial now... but since it seems to be of off-world origin, perhaps that's the same kind of being that inspired the Svrakiss stories.

Yeah, I get that the "ancient" fabrials like Soulcasters and Regrowth fabrials are sapient spren choosing to manifest in the Physical Realm - I guess like living Shardblades - but it's not totally clear to me how that would carry over to non-sapient spren like the flamespren used in heating fabrials or whatever.

I disagree, Shallan doesn't have her Plate when she survives crossbow bolt through the head. Radiant Stormlight healing is really powerful. 3rd ideal is enough to be basically invulnerable to ordinary mundane attacks unless completely overwhelmed and run out of Stormlight... and Gravitation means they're not getting overwhelmed by non-flyers, their mobility is way too good. (And that's assuming the non-powered singers even get to fight the Skybreaker, as opposed to just being crushed under a rain of stones Lashed from the sky or incinerated in some kind of Division attack setting the whole village on fire.) Sure, they'd need to carry gems - but large gems aren't that unheard of, and it appears they were significantly more common historically (before greatshells were overhunted). Yes, they'd be reliant on Highstorms to periodically recharge, but those are pretty common on Roshar. And fighting one village shouldn't even be that hard for a highly-combative Radiant like a Skybreaker; I doubt they'd run out mid-fight. I am not necessarily talking about immediately after a Desolation. Just some random Radiant between Desolations who decides, "well, if there are no living singers there will be no way for the Fused to return -> no more Desolations ever*. And now they have no Fused and no Forms of Power, so they basically can't fight me remotely effectively." *I am not sure this would actually work, since thunderclasts appear to be Fused spirits animating rock; there might be other similar ways for Fused to animate things other than singer bodies. But it's a plausible enough idea that I think someone would probably have thought of it.

I'm also a Truthwatcher. (I think that personality type is disproportionately represented among serious Cosmere fans, people who want to dig into the mechanics etc. and thus join this forum.)

That's true, but their powers would probably make skill a lot less necessary when fighting non-powered opponents. Especially if they had reliable access to the level of super speed/reflexes we see from Taln... but it must have been limited or unreliable in some way (only usable in short bursts???), since we know from the Prologue thunderclasts killed Heralds, with super speed dodging them should have been trivial. And maybe the singers had Forms of Power before they had Surges. I don't think it's quite that simple; flying makes a big difference in terms of patrolling things. No, a Skybreaker on Crusade couldn't literally find and kill every single individual; but given say ten years to work on it, they probably could find and destroy every settlement or significant encampment. I think you could see a village from several miles up, so a search grid over the whole continent would probably be workable. Without Forms of Power or surges, the actual fighting would be a non-issue. Some individuals and small groups would survive, of course (some of those who fled, and small non-settled bands not found, maybe a village or two hidden by persistent clouds or something). But if there was a Desolation within, say, the next two generations, that would probably be the end of the singer species. (As the surviving population would be so small that most would become Fused and die in battle, others would die fighting alongside the Fused, etc.) And that's one individual Skybreaker going for his Crusade. I think the Radiants had to actively protect the singers between Desolations; if even a small number of Radiants decided to kill them off, the species would not have survived.

I don't know. If they were basically newly born as consciousnesses, and they didn't experience it as suffering/oppression then, why would they be angry about those past events so immediately after gaining sapience? If the memories themselves weren't traumatic/of suffering, and they haven't had a chance to learn (as sapient beings) why they should be angry about it... a large proportion of them would probably start out as sapients accepting "we do what humans order us to do", and only after some time and experience of mistreatment learn to be angry about it. There's not enough time for that learning process. They also adopt behavioral traits of their human culture - Alethi fight, Azish ones write petitions, Thaylen ones sail away. That could be some magical trick of their Connection being restored, but it could also suggest they had significant ability to observe & learn from what they observed while in the "parshman" state. I think what is really absent (or suppressed to the point that it's effectively absent) is volition, not consciousness. (Their thoughts are clouded, yes, but not absent.) In the "parshman" state they probably do genuinely have the intelligence to understand human language and act on orders*; what they lack is the volition/self-direction/initiative to decide whether they want to follow those orders, or to initiate complex actions without orders. But since Rosharan humans aren't telepathic, they have no way to know that there is a consciousness "in there", since parshmen really do act like zombies. *as opposed to it being a magical Command/Intent based process like Awakening

Do we know if other Selish systems like ChayShan or Bloodsealing need an equivalent? I am not sure about Dakhor sacrifices. Are they a Snapping/Shaod equivalent (you need them to make the symbols magically effective) or more like a catalyst (anybody from the right country can do the magic but it needs human lives to work)? I was thinking Elantrians were originally more like Forgers (much lower power, no glowing or extended life, etc.) but the city of Elantris made them way more powerful but limited the number of people via the Shaod (where before anyone in the region could learn how).

Maybe I am just being obtuse, but I still don't see that as confirmation. The highstorms absolutely predate the Shards, granted. And the Stormfather is critical to the Highstorm cycle now, granted. But I still think it's likely that Honor and/or Cultivation significantly changed how the highstorm cycle worked when they Invested the planet. Stormlight is Honor's Investiture, after all. And I think the three bondsmith spren being "siblings" implies a common origin, which kind of would have to be Honor/Cultivation creating splinters voluntarily, since Nightwatcher is Cultivation, Stormfather is Honor, Sibling is both. But I guess there's a middle ground, where Honor "created" the Stormfather (as a sapient being and a Radiant spren) by massively Investing a pre-existing, originally non-sapient spren of the highstorm.

Cultivation is controlled or directed growth. Odium is hatred, but perhaps a bit broader. So I don't think any of the options quite fit. Combining them would imo give either aggressive growth/expansion that pushes out others, or aggressive 'pruning' to reshape a thing/person/society. But I don't really know a good single word for either. *Cancer is specifically uncontrolled growth, so I don't think that quite fits. Conquest perhaps, but that feels a bit too close to Dominion. And the idea would be less ruling others, more expanding to fill everything at everyone else's expense. OTOH I am not sure we really understand how combined Intents work anyway. Is War really the Intent of Honor+Odium? Sure, there's Warlight, but Honor+Cultivation light is Towerlight and "Tower" isn't an Intent.

That's definitely a possibility. But a time gap of centuries might not be required. If most of the Radiants died shortly after the Recreance -- and even they probably did not fully understand what had happened (clearly it was not the intended result) -- the regular people might just have interpreted the events as the Singers being basically turned into zombies. That does seem to be their apparent behavior - they just kind of obey orders "blindly". The fact that there seems to be a consciousness "in there somewhere" still (since post-Everstorm they remember their previous lives as parshmen as being 'in continuity' with their current existence, rather than being newly-born consciousnesses) doesn't seem to have been visible from their externally observable behavior. I wonder how long it took for all of the newly formless singers to be "captured"* by humans? In WOK era there don't seem to be 'free' parshmen unassociated with humans. Were they slowly all 'captured' over centuries as people encountered roaming bands of parshmen, or was it an organized thing immediately after the Recreance, or did the ones unassociated with humans die off? (They do seem to be able to do basic life functions like eating without orders - but could they find shelter from highstorms, food sources, etc. reliably enough to survive over generations?) *though as they seem to automatically obey orders it was probably as simple as saying "follow me home".

See, given that they remember how they were treated in pretty clear detail, I think there has to have been much more there than either we the readers or the Rosharan humans realized. Post Everstorm they don't seem to be being "born" as totally new individuals, never before sapient (which is what I expected post WoR). But this might not have been detectable to ordinary means. I think their state was probably like a Radiant spren newly entered into the Physical Realm, sort of disconnected from their own sapience... except they didn't have the ability to form the bond they'd need to regain it. (Kal mistook Syl as an ordinary windspren at first.) I think this is also analogous to dead Shardblades/deadeyes, and (Mistborn Era 1 spoilers) Now you could totally argue that the Rosharan humans pre Oathbringer weren't personally at fault for treating them this way, as they couldn't have known any better - and I'd probably agree, unless there was evidence of sapience they should have seen but missed. Those immediately post Recreance who set up the system are much more likely to have been at fault... otoh they may not have understood what was happening either.