Nyali

Just a quick point of fact - check the end of WoR again. We last see her arriving back in Roshar from Shadesmar and being harassed by Hoid, who catches her up on what's going on.

... I can totally see that xD She cares so much about appearances and how people see her, but not for the usual or expected reasons. She isn't trying to attract the attentions of men (or women). She isn't trying to be something she's not, nor is she trying to make all people respect her or love her or whatever. She wouldn't be an avowed atheist if she wanted that. She wants people to see her as who she is. It's like what Shallan does to other people, she does to herself - she projects an ideal version of herself for all to see, and by doing so, becomes that idealized version of herself. If she had a relationship like you say, she'd probably make sure people know exactly what she's doing and why. It's only logical, after all xD

I wonder if the "pupating" is actually them generating more voidspren or something, and they don't actually transform at all?

I thought the WoB was that there are only three shards that have been to Roshar, Honor, Cultivation, and Odium?

So, here's a question I have never seen an answer to regarding the Chasmfiends: If they're pupating, that means they're transforming into something new, doesn't it? What happens to a Chasmfiend that completes the pupating without having its heart torn out?

Brandon isn't just translating Alethi into English, he's localizing. That's why the songs of the Listeners have English rhymes, and why Lift uses the word "awesomeness" (a very modern word in English) and how there can be so much wordplay that relies on the sound or structure of English words. When you localize, like for a TV series or video game, you don't just translate the words, or even the meanings, into the language of the region you're localizing for; you translate the intent. You make it so your audience has the same reactions (or as close as possible) to the content as the people for whom the content was originally created. If "awesomeness" sounded jarring to you, well, the Azish word (or whatever language she thinks in) that she actually uses would sound just as jarring to Gawx. And yeah, there's plenty of word play in Warbreaker. Vasher on Roshar illustrates the difference between translation and localization - none of the idioms he uses make any sense to the people around him, despite having perfectly translated the words from Idrian to Alethi.

Jasnah definitely doesn't come across as gay to me (not that I'm an authority on the subject, but I am married to another woman...). If anything, as someone said above, if I had to say how her romantic tendencies might lean from what we've seen so far, I'd have to say she most comes across as demisexual. She's not very expressive of her emotions. It's part of the mask she wears at all times. Occasionally, it slips through, and I think that shows that she does have strong emotions but doesn't see a need to express them all the time. I have a feeling that, somewhere down the line, she will find someone who makes sense, logically, for her to fall in love with, and she will fall in love with that person. And, to everyone else, it'll look like she's just with them because it rationally makes sense, but in truth, it will be real. I just can't see her being attracted to men because they're men, or women because they're women. I can see her being attracted to someone because they're brilliant in some way, and the union makes rational sense and provides concrete benefits to everyone involved. And yeah, she implied that she was abused in some way as a child (and, since she can Surgebind, she has to have had a traumatic experience in her past by definition). But, as far as I know, that doesn't generally influence one's sexuality, just their expression of it.

Oh! Something I just noticed, though others have probably already noticed this, is that the Essences (and thus the Fabrial "surges") are grouped into five distinct groupings. Four of these groupings roughly correspond to the classical elements, while the last one represents life. This fifth, different category is the one with the special glyphs in the middle of the gem in the diagram, set apart from the rest: Air: Sapphire and Smokestone (inhalation and exhalation, air and smoke) Fire: Ruby and Diamond (soul and eyes, fire and glass) Water: Garnet and Zircon (blood and oil, non-oil liquid and oil) Earth: Amethyst and Topaz (nails and bone, metal and stone) Life: Emerald and Heliodor (hair and flesh, plants and flesh) All glyphs are connected to the other one in their pair. Each of the "air" glyphs are also connected to one of the "fire" and one of the "water" glyphs, but neither are connected to any of the "earth" glyphs (Air and Earth are generally seen as opposites in the classical elements). Similarly, each of the "earth" glyphs are connected to one of the "water" and one of the "fire" glyphs but no "air" glyphs. In the same vein, Water and Fire are generally seen as opposites, and each of the "water" and "fire" glyphs are connected to one "earth" and one "air" glyph, but neither to any of each other. One of each set connects to a "life" glyph - "air" ("air") and "earth" ("stone") to flesh, and "water" (blood) and "fire" (glass) to plants. I do not have any suggestions for what the significance of that is. EDIT: I can't figure out how to do a real table in this editor, so here's my best approximate: Connection Table _________________________________________________________________________ | Gemstone | Connections | | Gem Element| Air Fire Water Earth Life | | Sapphire Air | Smokestone Diamond Garnet Heliodor | | Smokestone Air | Sapphire Ruby Zircon | | Ruby Fire | Smokestone Diamond Amethyst | | Diamond Fire | Sapphire Ruby Topaz Emerald | | Emerald Life | Diamond Garnet Heliodor | | Garnet Water | Sapphire Zircon Topaz Emerald | | Zircon Water | Smokestone Garnet Amethyst | | Amethyst Earth | Ruby Zircon Topaz | | Topaz Earth | Diamond Garnet Amethyst Heliodor | | Heliodor Life | Smokestone Topaz Emerald | EDIT 2: Expanding on this, look at the Forces ("surges," but I don't want to call them that) and their links. There are three distinct categories of Forces if you divide them based on what they link to. First, there are what I'm going to call the Elemental Forces. These are the four Forces that are linked exclusively to one element (both gems of that element and no gems of another element, though they all do also link to one Force, but I'll get to that later): Air: Gravitation Fire: Abrasion Water: Transformation Earth: Cohesion I feel like all of these fit their "element" really well. There are two Forces are shared between two elements. I guess I'll call these the Independant Forces: Air (Smokesmoke) + Fire (Ruby): Division Water (Zircon) + Earth (Amethyst): Transportation These don't fit their elemental pairs as well, or at least don't seem to. I guess you could say that air and fire are discrete and disconnected and temporary, all qualities that could be associated with division? And maybe you could say that water and earth are tangible elements in that you can gather them up and carry them away, but you can't do that with air and fire? I know it's weak. The last four are odd. They each link to one gem of one element and two Forces. I'll call these the Complex Forces: Air (Sapphire) + Gravitation + Tension: Adhesion Fire (Diamond) + Abrasion + Illumination: Progression Water (Garnet) + Transformation + Progression: Illumination Earth (Topaz) + Cohesion + Adhesion: Tension Maybe you can say stuff like: gravitation and tension both work for and against adhesion, both either pulling an object away from another object, or pushing it into another object? I dunno, it feels weak as well. Also, if you don't like the idea of classical elements, then what about seeing them as states of matter? Air = gas, Fire = fire?, Water = liquid, Earth = solid, Life = organic. I know "fire" isn't really a state of matter, and "plasma" wouldn't work because fires aren't made out of plasma (nor is glass), but fire can certainly be seen as a different state of matter through the beautiful lens of pseudoscience ("organic" too!) EDIT 3: And if someone else already pointed some of this stuff out elsewhere on another thread and I just missed it in a quick skim of the forums (sorry, I'm new here!), then I guess Hoid was right in saying that timeliness is of most worth, not ingenuity <.< Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure Brandon has RAFOed the origin of the safehand/freehand thing. He's said that there's a thing that led to it, or a thing that inspired it, or something, but he hasn't ever said why to my knowledge. My understanding is that when we find out more about the history of Roshar, we'll see something and go "Oh! That's why Vorin women started covering one hand!" but he doesn't want us to not have that moment of epiphany. EDIT: Aha, found it: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=697#2. In summary, he says that there are several reasons why the tradition started, and ONE of them was the book. But, there's more to it than that.

I totally agree that this end-sheet has to do with Fabrial Science. As mentioned in another thread, I feel that the fact that the background is reminiscent of Shadesmar supports the idea, as well as the use of lightning bolts between glyphs (which, to me, suggest current and circuitry) and the large cut gem in the middle containing glyphs within it strongly suggests fabrials like you said. Now, that said, some questions: Why does a flamespren trapped in an emerald cause pain? (Navani's notebook, first page: http://coppermind.net/wiki/File:Navani1.jpg)Emeralds are not linked to either Abrasion or the "Dustbringer" glyph. Can any spren be trapped in any gemstone with the right cut, or can you only trap "associated" spren? Which determines the effect of the Fabrial, the spren's type or the gem's type? In other words, which modifies which? Do specific spren lend specific qualities to the fabrial? Like, flamespren generate heat/abrasion, groundspren alter gravity/direction/orientation? Do specific gems lend specific qualities to the fabrial? Like, Ruby binds things together (weird that Ruby would, but conjoiners...) and Diamonds allow for viewscreens or something? How do the properties of the spren and the properties of the gem combine? Would a groundspren trapped in a diamond allow you to make a moving viewscreen? Who does that make the woman at the edges of the diagram? Navani? (I don't think she has blond hair though) Does it mean anything that the ten main glyphs are in three groupings? Sapphire, Smokestone, Ruby, Diamond (mirror of 3) Heliodor, Emerald Garnet, Zircon, Amethyst, Topaz (mirror of 1) Does it mean anything that the ten sub-glyphs are in four groupings? Gravitation, Division, Abrasion (mirror of 3) Progression, Illumination (mirror of 4) Transformation, Transportation, Cohesion (mirror of 1) Tension, Adhesion (mirror of 2) What do the links between the sub-glyphs represent?

I feel like character preference is really not a good indicator of anything. Kaladin doesn't have any sort of love of windspren, nor does Syl really. Shallan doesn't think anything of windspren either. Kaladin hates rain because it's depressing and reminds him of horrible days in his past where it happened to be raining. Someone's like or dislike of a type of spren says far more about how they feel about the natural force or emotion that attracts that type of spren than how they feel about the actual spren themselves.

But there aren't eight metals. There are sixteen. Well, unless you mean non-alloys only, but I still think that's just coincidence. There aren't ten types of breath on Nalthis or only ten Aons on Sel or anything like that.

I'm thinking more and more that the diagram is actually about Fabrial Science, or whatever it's called, not Voidbringing. The lightning bolts connecting the glyphs suggest, to me, current flowing along a circuit. The background suggests Shadesmar, and Fabrial Science is all about trapping the right spren in the right gems. The middle two are mirrors of Truthwatcher and Bondsmith, and they are of special note. Maybe those two aspects of Fabrial Science are special, like metapowers that are not actually part of Fabrials. Maybe the Truthwatcher mirror has to do with observing spren, and the Bondsmith mirror has to do with trapping spren? And the other eight are different ways to tap into the energy of a spren (or they trap different spren)? I don't think it's right to see these glyphs as representing "opposites" - the glyphs aren't inverted, upside down, colors reversed, etc. They are half flipped and half left alone, making them all more connected with more lines spanning the graph. It's like each one has a line through the middle from one end to the other, like the surge has been converted from something individual to something that can link with other surges, something you might see in a circuit diagram.

I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed that there have never been any shards on Roshar other than the three we know about, and only one of them has a female vessel (or whatever the right term is for someone who takes up a Shard of Adonalsium) - Cultivation. That's been WoBed.

You clearly don't watch much Anime xD

But if they're spren, CAN they change with their measurements observed and recorded? EDIT: Pattern was fixed when Shallan drew him, right? Does that mean if someone (like, say, Shallan) draws Syl, she'll be stuck in whatever form she's in at the time? The implications for Fabrial Science (aka Direct Spren Manipulation) are super interesting! I really want to know how the Fabrial Science system works. I'm betting it'll involve circuit diagrams. If the image in the back of WoR is a diagram for the Fabrial Science system (and not Voidbringing), then the lightning bolts between the glyphs could represent magical current and how it flows

You know, I've been wondering. Are the Shardblades unable to change size because they're dead, or because their measurements, shape, and appearance are all perfectly described in tons of books?

Not only that, those two glyphs are octagons, not circles like the rest. If you consider the center region as a "river" and the two areas on either side as the "shore," then the other major glyphs are all carefully placed on "land." Not only that, if you see the lines on the "land" as elevation lines, then the glyphs are all either at the top of mountains or the bottom of valleys. These two octagons, however, are located on the ruby in the center. Maybe there's something there, some connection between them being octagons (a more "gem-like" shape than a circle) and being located on a gem. Or, maybe the circles represent uncut gems, and the octagons represent cut gems? Another interesting thing about the smaller circles - not only are the top two and bottom two not attached to the central glyphs like they are in the Surgebinding diagram, the middle left and middle right sub circles are not linked to the sub-circles above and below them. On the Surgebinding diagram, Transportation is linked to Transformation and Cohesion, and Division is linked to Abrasion and Gravitation. But, that is not true for Anti-Division (which I shall name Multiplication!) and Anti-Transportation (maybe that's the power of Staying Home?). Also, the background for the image reminds me a LOT of the map of Shadesmar. (Sorry if there's another topic discussing the diagram itself!) Regarding the woman, we know that the custom for hiding one hand came from somewhere. The woman could be Cultivation, who for whatever reason (even maybe just aesthetics) always hid one hand, and the memory of her is the source of the Vorin custom of women hiding one hand. Maybe this isn't a Voidbringing diagram, but a diagram of some magic that comes from Cultivation. ... or it could still be an image of Odium. Nothing says that person is female, the feminine features just strongly suggest it. Maybe Odium just happens to be a really pretty man? You guys can be pretty too! It's allowed! Especially if you happen to be a god.

I actually really love how speaking the oaths works. I felt the same way when I first started reading, but then I thought about it, and was like, oh! I get it! Honor + Cultivation = cultivating a specific virtue within you and speaking vows when you reach new levels of understanding. You strengthen your conduit to the two shards (Honor and Cultivation) linked to your investiture source (Stormlight) at each step. This allows you to more easily channel that investiture (Stormlight). It's so appropriate, it's beautiful. I also really love the reason why Surgebinders have to be under extreme stress in order for bondspren to bond them - they need cracks in their soul (their protrusion into the spiritual realm) so the spren can fill in the holes and hold their soul together, forging the bond through those cracks. As long as the soul they bond to is similar to them, the bond gets stronger, but if the soul changes to be different, the bond can break. The vows keep their souls similar to the spren such that they can only change their soul to differ from the spren by breaking those vows. It works so well. From re-reading chapter 60 of The Way of Kings (the vision about Nohadon), I wonder if there were vows before the Knights Radiant, or if the bond was just strengthened by the surgebinder becoming more similar to the spren's ideals (the spren's protrusion into the spiritual realm) without it being codified.

Ah, I missed that. Or haven't gotten back to it in my re-read. Skimming ahead, I see that it's like, two chapters from where I am. Oops! Thanks for the clarification ^.^ I wonder how non-Radiant Surgebinders worked compared to the Radiants. Did they have the same Oaths, without the First Ideal? They had to have Oaths in order to Invest, so I guess they'd be like the main characters are, each discovering things for themselves with no one to guide them, and their actions in life attracting their bondspren independently of anyone or anything else.

So, while re-reading The Way of Kings, something seriously confused me about the timing of the founding of the Knights Radiant and the writing of the in-universe book "The Way of Kings." I looked through this forum, but couldn't find an answer, so I'm sorry if it's out there and I just missed it. The text states that the Knights Radiant based their First Ideal off of Nohadon's book, "The Way of Kings." But, a key part of Nohadon's book was writing about his journey by foot from Abamar to Urithiru. I could be misremembering or misunderstanding, but I thought Urithiru was built to be the seat of the Knights Radiant, built specifically to not be part of any of the Silver Kingdoms, but a place linked to all of them via the Oathgates. If the Knights Radiant based their oaths on "The Way of Kings," then "The Way of Kings" had to have been written before they were founded. But, if they built the city of Urithiru after they were founded, using Surgebinding to construct the Oathgates, then how does that work? I feel like I'm missing or misunderstanding some key point, like the Oathgates pre-dated the Knights Radiant, or that non-Herald Surgebinders existed prior to the creation of the Knights Radiant as an order and simply didn't have the First Ideal (it's not like Radiants had to actually speak the First Ideal to gain power like the other Immortal Words). Or maybe the city of Urithiru was not built to be the home base of the Knights Radiant, but was built to be a city that linked all of the kingdoms together, and the Knights Radiant just decided to use it as the location for their base of operations when they were founded. I dunno. Could anyone please point out the detail that I have wrong or am missing here?

Regarding Honorspren and gravity, gravity can be seen as an object being bound to the ground. Honorspren manipulate bonds, so to me it makes sense that they can manipulate an object's bond with the ground and change it to another surface or direction. I really like Cultivationspren/lifespren for Edgedancers. I think it really fits their caring, growth, and healing natures. The only tie I see between Truthwatchers and lifespren is that the related gemstone is particularly good at soulcasting wood and plants. For Dustbringers, what about Decayspren for their bondspren? Syl mentions Decayspren at one point in passing, but no one calls the spren attracted by decaying matter "decayspren." People call that spren "rotspren." If we assume that these are two distinct types of spren and not two names for the same spren, then Decayspren would make total sense for the Dustbringers - a spren tied to destructive change that is not one anyone knows about. That would make their associated lesser spren rotspren most likely, though I can see the argument for flamespren or deathspren. For Elsecallers, they're the prime liaisons between humans and spren. Sure, Jasnah is really into learning and logic, but those aren't qualities associated with the Order of Elsecallers. Elsecallers are associated with the properties Wise and Careful (Truthwatchers are the ones associated with Learning). If we look at what Ivory is like, Ivory is extremely careful around others and first appears as a shadow pointing in the wrong direction. If Syl first appeared looking like a Windspren and Pattern forms various shapes before he regained consciousness kinda like a creationspren, I'd think Ivory's spren-type's linked spren would be something to do with shadows. Perhaps shadespren or darknessspren if such things exist? (Definitely not Nightspren though; we all know those are voidspren!) So, shadowy, wise, careful, ambassadorial... maybe Ivory's spren type is something like Intriguespren? Seems like it'll be something to do with the shadier areas of politics. For Skybreakers, if Highspren have something to do with law and order, like some kind of high judge, then I'd think their associated spren would be similarly inclined. But, I'm not seeing any spren in the list of mentioned spren that are associated with law and order, except possibly captivationspren. Maybe there's some kind of judgmentspren that come out when someone is proclaiming judgment on another? I want the Willshapers' bondspren to be Adventurespren But it's more likely something like what you said, Discoveryspren or Freespren or Wildspren. I do agree that it's likely many of these spren will be more naturey and we keep suggesting more emotiony spren, but emotion spren are just easier to link to abstract concepts than nature spren. For all we know, the spren for Willshapers will be some wild force of nature, like Hurricanespren or Catspren.