Jofwu

It will be interesting to see. I didn't get that impression from OB. I actually have one memory where she did something religious amidst Dalinar doing or saying something blasphemous. It stood out to me as notable that she was doing this while still acknowledging (to some extent) the truth of what Dalinar was saying. (unlike the ardentia, who just deny everything) OBs also a little weird considering she spends so much time as Veil, who is basically an atheist. But it's entirely possible I'm superimposing my view from previous books on her and missed a change that is indeed present. And I don't mean to steer conversation away from the present. Sorry.

I'm highly skeptical that this experience is directly associated with Ivory. In the WoR prologue, Jasnah was never reacting to some kind of deep inner fear. Everything about it reads as an experience with the unknown. The shadows seem new. Ivory is alien. Shadesmar isn't in any way familiar. I understand the idea that it could be some kind of repressed memory... But I highly doubt Brandon is going to do that twice to the same extent, and even Shallan gave hints of familiarity with what had happened in her past. If Jasnah was experiencing anything she had seen before, it would have come with hints to that effect. The overall timing doesn't work great either. Jasnah was apparently "recovering" from whatever happened 23 years ago. Other than Jasnah, the earliest nahel bond we know of is Shallan with Pattern and that was about 7 years ago. Maaaybe a few more if it was going on for quite a while before her mother noticed and did something about it, though that seems unlikely to me. Everything I can think of hints that spren seeking out humans again is a very recent development. So placing Ivory's first appearance at roughly 15 years before the next instance makes the idea difficult for me to accept without more evidence (either for this particular case or even just evidence that other spren were looking for bonds that long ago). Just because the experience "broke" Jasnah doesn't mean that Ivory showed up on the spot. Spren probably weren't bonding humans at the time. I'm sure a LOT of humans broke over the last 2000-some years without ending up in a bond. That's not to say this same experience isn't what let Ivory come in. It just means Ivory wasn't standing there waiting when it happened. The same cracks were just there 17ish years later when he showed up for the first time on the night Gavilar died. I also don't think there's any reason to think a family member was abusing Jasnah. The fact that they refer to it as "lunacy" makes me doubt whatever it was involved abuse in general, because the only way I can see that working is that she was adamantly accusing someone of abuse/rape/whatever and nobody believed her. That also doesn't fit with the true pain of the whole experience came from "people she loved". There's a lot of holes and missing gaps in our knowledge... But my best guess is that she simply had some kind of bizarre but totally natural mental condition that they didn't know how to deal with. So they locked her up until things started looking better, which left her feeling super betrayed. Logical as she is, she would understand why they did it and not let it ruin her future relationships... But the emotional scars would still be there. My next best guess is that she witnessed/discovered/learned something that nobody else would believe. Could be something fantastical (magic of some kind), a discovery she made and insisted on but nobody believed, something religious-related (refusing to accept Vorinism, so they labeled her a lunatic), etc.

I'd love to know if they're planning to switch to the new artist for volume 3 or if they'll do some of both again. Or if it's a really weird, super-awkward, one-time thing.

Yes and no, and I'm expecting to really get into this in WoR, but I'm reading chapters 7 & 8 right now, and there's an indication that she lies to herself on this point, but that will be in the analysis of those two chapters. Oh, I didn't mean in the sense that she's lying to herself. I just think she has really low self-esteem. I guess on my first read of TWoK I just assumed she simply didn't think very highly of herself. Now I'd say it's probably the abuse that made her this way rather than the nature she was born with.

Yeah, I'm not sure this says a whole lot. The first two are, respectively, the princess of a powerful nation whose wardship she is trying to gain and the king of the nation she's currently standing in. Most people are going to treat them differently. I think this becomes really important later on with Kaladin. There are a lot of times that Kaladin thinks she can be downright mean, and maybe she is. But I don't think she intends to be. There's just a communication disconnect between them. Probably more Shallan's fault in my opinion. She doesn't seem to have the awareness to see when her "humor" is doing more harm than good. Or perhaps the self control to put a lid on it unless someone calls her out on it like Jasnah does here. Not an expert on abuse, but I imagine this is a direct result of identity issues having lived under an abusive father. I want to say there are several other examples of this in chapter 8. Shallan's devotion to her religion is really interesting to me, though Sanderson never seems to really dig into it. It's just sort of part of who she is. She comes across as more religious than most people we know in Stormlight. She frequently prays, often as a first instinct to things both bad and good. And it doesn't seem to be rote, as we see later. Her defense of Vorinism in part 3, for example, doesn't strike me as memorized rhetoric. It's personal to her. Which is not what I'd imagine given her upbringing. I'm really curious how she got that way, and how it played into her childhood. It was mostly glossed over in her flashbacks. I'm also really curious to see how her faith evolves in books 4/5 now that she clearly sees some holes in Vorin theology. I am more inclined to think her faith will evolve rather than fizzle out. Perhaps she will be an important link in bringing together Vorin leaders and the new Radiants, or perhaps she'll play an interesting role in a new offshoot of traditional Vorinism. But we're in TWoK chapter 5 still. I'm getting way ahead of myself now.

Wanted to post my own opinion concerning "character discussion" forum/subforum(s)... I can see the appeal for a separate space, but I'd MUCH rather combat the idea that these discussions aren't welcome and eliminate the problem entirely. As someone who primarily looks at theories, character discussions (shipping or otherwise) should feel welcome. Maybe there's a benefit that I don't see... But otherwise I'd prefer to at least try making this work before going down that road.

DimChatz, we're all busy people. This is the first time you've spoken yourself in here if I'm not mistaken. We've got lives, babies, jobs, and this takes time. We didn't make this to pretend we're listening and then call it a day. We've been talking about some of the points from this discussion privately and will probably change some things. We're just still decide what that looks like. We're still trying to process this conversation, which is barely a day old. And to that end, it would be really helpful to me personally if you could explain exactly and concisely what you think has been done poorly. Your general dissatisfaction is noted, but it's hard for me to pull specifics out of that. One thing I gather is that you feel like we're moderating different people in different ways. Thanks for expressing that. If you ever try to start a character discussion and somebody makes you feel unwelcome posting such a topic, I definitely want to know about it. That's not okay, if I understand right.

BraidedRose, if you're ever in a character or relationship (or any other) discussion and feel like somebody is dismissing the very value of that discussion, we'd definitely like to know about it. Personally, I was under the impression that the issues in ASK were more about people wanting to talk but being unable to get a word in--not people dismissing the value of those conversations.

@Stormwatcher This is incredible! Thank you for doing it and sharing.

Yep! Sorry if that wasn't clear. We felt Dreamstorm's warranted discussion... but that such discussion would totally derail @IronBars's topic.

Guys, I'm pretty sure we all agree opinions are subjective. I don't think anybody meant to imply otherwise. Correct me if I'm wrong @IronBars, but I think the problem you had was with people stating an opinion and then not supporting that opinion? (or, to be fair to them perhaps I should say you didn't feel like they supported it) I agree that can be frustrating. If you want to have a discussion and say, "I think X because A, B and C," it's frustrating when someone else comes along and says, "Well those are silly reasons. I think Y." That doesn't add much to the discussion and can appear dismissive. Granted, that sort of thing is just going to happen in this setting. I've done it before, I'm sure. It's not against some kind of rule or anything, it's just lazy. Or sometimes a person posting simply isn't as clear as they thought they were. Maybe they thought their logic was more apparent than it was. Where was the discussion at before all of this...?

It's amusing several people can all look at a thing and still fail to word it just right. I guess when you talk about something too much it's easy to leave out certain context and not realize it.

Really good stuff Alderant! Would you also mind posting in the forum each time? Would be easier to quote that way, for discussion. Maybe behind spoiler tag so the length is removed.

Maybe we're just talking on two different wavelengths. I'm not sure we agree on what "dismissive" means. If I post a theory about how Bob is going to become an Allomancer and 5 people respond that they disagree (with good reasons or dumb ones)... That's okay for them to say. They're dismissing my theory for one reason or another. That's okay. If someone says, "That theory is dumb. You should just leave." THAT is not okay. Huh... I think that's something that we're just going to fundamentally disagree on. Would be curious if others feel that way. We are part of the community, and I don't think many people would expect us to just give that up.

This took forever to write. Sorry if some of these things have already been addressed by others. Absolutely. I mean, I'm not saying we will agree with you, but no way to know unless someone raises a hand. If you think something isn't okay we want to know about it. We're certainly not going to remove somebody's post just because they disagree with you, whether they do so with a baseless, fluffy argument or a strong, logical argument. We do put more concern towards personal attacks. Generally dismissive people become a problem when it's stifling discussion. If somebody is interfering with a conversation and making people feel unwelcome then we want to know about it, so that we can determine if they're crossing a line. That's my opinion anyways. I can't speak for every moderator. Just be glad we removed the negative rep. Reputation is incredibly valuable in certain contexts... But yeah, it can be frustrating in topics that are both subjective and controversial. Those are rare though, I think. There's been some talk of removing the system, but I'm not sure what the state of that discussion is. Maybe Chaos can say more. I've made posts before that I thought deserved more votes than they got. At the end of the day, I think you've got to tell yourself its okay. Just internet points. Nothing wrong with having a minority opinion and thus getting less votes. Heck, in some ways those are more valuable. But there's a distinction there. This sounds like you feel censored just by the general community. I'm specifically asking about the statement that moderators are doing the censoring. Maybe the implication is just that we're subtly censoring via the community, by encouraging/discouraging certain opinions? We certainly have our own individual opinions. Sometimes those may line up. I don't think we ever abuse moderation powers to encourage those opinions, though we can certainly talk about it if people think we do. I definitely don't think it's our job to protect minority opinions from the general community. We're not okay with personal attacks or harassment, and we want discussion to be open. But otherwise we're not going to like... limit the number of popular opinions that can be shared per minority opinion? I'm not even sure what to do with that idea. It's okay to share something controversial, knowing it won't be popular. You should do so because you think someone else might like to read your thoughts, and realize that maybe nobody will. You should absolutely never feel the need to respond to someone in a heated way. If you're angry, it's probably time to take a step back. Maybe return later. Maybe not. If you ever feel like the only way to make your point is with anger, sarcasm, or any kind of aggression then I would want to know about it. As far as I know, we haven't removed or discouraged any posts simply because they are minority opinions (that we don't agree with).

Can you or anyone else explain the censorship complaint? I've been struggling to understand why some people think their opinions are being censored. Nobody tried to bury IronBars' opinions so far as I can see. This whole conversation began simply because Chaos took offense at him using the term "fanboy" in a negative way. Nothing was covered or hidden. None of the actual content of his argument was disputed. It was just a simple "hey, please don't say it like that." Sounds like you're saying you'd prefer such comments to be made in private?

I like this theory a lot! Does a much better job fitting with the usual notion that Trelagism existed in its own right before Shard-Trell co-opted it. It's odd that Trell (a Daysider) would be associated with the night rather than Nalt. Then again, this is assuming he left Dayside. Maybe he got sick of the sun.

If Brandon didn't want us to make that connection, he surely would have changed the guy's name or at least made his introduction less dramatic. Peter and Isaac are involved enough with the graphic novel to know how this will be perceived. I feel pretty confident assuming that he's connected to the Trell that's near Scadrial somehow. Exactly how he's connected is anyone's guess... Best explanation I can think of is that Autonomy used him when making an avatar of herself. That she either used his physical and/or cognitive being. We don't know how these things are made, but I can imagine it works by her handing a massive chunk of her power over to a secondary vessel of sorts.

So, I had some thoughts about the future of cosmere/Sanderson graphic novels and we had a brief conversation about it on Discord this morning... It occurred to me that an unpublished book like White Sand was actually a perfect way to test the waters on this. I'm sure that this has been a VERY new experience for Team Dragonsteel. I think Dynamite specifically wanted something new and not previously published, but this actually works really well for Sanderson. If they were to attempt something published we would all have higher expectations and more of us would have our eyes on the project. White Sand is able to slip under the radar a little bit in a way that a Mistborn graphic novel could not. Imagine how rough it would be if Dragonsteel's first attempt at a graphic novel was something with HIGH levels of attention and hype? I'm sure it's also nice that they have the ability to adapt White Sand slightly as needed. Probably makes their lives easier as they navigate these waters. That's something they can't do with a book that's already been published. All that to say... While I'm hopeful we eventually get graphic novels of things that have been published, it was probably for the best that they used White Sand to test the waters.

In Volume 1, chapter 5, page 5 (I think) Khriss makes a reference to "Irarians". In Volume 2, chapter 5, five pages from the end of the chapter we learn that Baon is from "Iiaria". The prose refers to "Iiaria" and "Iiarians", but no mention of an "Iraria" or "Irarians". My BEST guess is that in the revisions to writing Volume 1 it was decided to change Iiaria/Iiarian to Iraria/Irarian, but this was lost and forgotten while writing Volume 2. My second best guess is that the instance of "Irarians" in Volume 1 is a typo there. Other possibilities are that these refer to separate nations or that for the graphic novels they decided to keep Iiaria but change the adjective to Irarian. But both of these seem awkward and highly unlikely to me.

I haven't read the prose, but the recent White Sand Shardcast mentioned some points that got me wondering... What technology level does Dayside seem to be at in the prose? Both Kerzta and the other small nations. From the podcast I got the sense that nations like Lossand aren't very advanced... The 2nd volume graphic novel did a bit more worldbuilding for Lossand (specifically Kezare) and seems to suggest a much higher tech level than I'd have expected. They seem to have electric lights and radios, if nothing else. Sounds like this is something that changed from the prose to the graphic novel?

Well.... Volume 2 stuff:

Definitely better than the first. Definitely still has some issues. In general, I really enjoyed this volume. The story was more interesting to me. A thing that came up once or twice in the recent WS volume 1 Shardcast was that all of the politics here might not work very well as a graphic novel. I thought they handled it very well. The characters and interactions were interesting, and somehow I actually felt like there was MORE action than in volume 1. The story is getting more complex, which I also liked. Volume 1 was pretty straight forward from one chapter to the next. Here we had characters juggling multiple things on their to-do lists, and I think that kept me engaged. I definitely think we got a lot more worldbuilding... at least for Kezare and Lossand. That was much appreciated. The sand mastery was much more visually striking, which was also nice. As for issues... I still felt several cases where the artwork was sloppy, or even where it didn't match what I read very well. I'll see Kenton's sword flip from one hip to the other between panels. I'll see Kenton complain about Ais/Khriss doing something, and yet have no visual clues. I'll read a conversation about how sand ribbons work while the artwork does nothing to aid in comprehension. Things like this are all over the place. (granted I don't think it was as bad as volume 1 in this regard) The artwork change in chapter 6 was very jarring. The original/main art doesn't seem to get much love, so I suspect most people will like the chapter 6 art. Personally, I felt like it was a bit lacking in detail. In any case, I thought it was really odd for them to give us a totally different artist for JUST the final chapter of the book. Makes the book feel... unpolished. Like the first artist ran out of time and they needed someone to help get the art done. Would prefer if they had given us the last two chapters that way. Or the last 3. Or perhaps every other chapter? Just something to make it feel like there's not one random oddbal chapter.

Very much this. Definitely not Skathan. I feel very strongly that it's the guy indicated in @teknopathetic's post above. Random dude with a musical instrument who seems to be around when something interesting happens? Very Hoid-like. Brandon didn't say that he would be playing a big role in the graphic novels--just that he would have a bigger spot. And considering his spot in the prose is practically non-existent, that's not saying much. But anyways...

These graphic novels are somewhat controversial among 17th Shard members... First, realize that the graphic novel is being adapted into 3 volumes from a single novel. And you can tell. Volume 1 doesn't tell a complete story and volume 2 will probably be no different. And for that reason it's hard to say how much White Sand adds to the cosmere at this point. We've only got one (well, now two) parts of the story. White Sand doesn't get a lot of attention in the fandom. The unpublished prose novel probably gets more attention, honestly. So you won't be missing anything huge if you want to skip it or wait for volume 3 to be released. It IS expensive for the amount of content you're getting. From what I hear, it's not an outrageous price compared to the industry standard for graphic novels. But as somebody who's not much of a graphic novel reader, you'll probably find yourself comparing the price to what you get out of a full Sanderson novel. You're dealing with something very different here, so you have to realize you're comparing apples and oranges. I'm the kind of person who wants to get everything cosmere-related no matter what, and I've enjoyed White Sand so far. Can't wait to open up volume 2 when I get home today. The first one had problems, for sure. I'm curious to see if volume 2 will improve on those or not. Either way, I'll probably preorder volume 3 as soon as I hear about it. IF you love the cosmere, don't mind the cost, and are able to keep your expectations in check then I'd definitely recommend White Sand.