DrakeMarshall

You're all fake, I'm the real Kelsier, getting confirmed a villager by Kas is actually an advanced Kelsier strat you may not know about but it's part of the meta, trust So anyways now that we've established everybody and/or nobody is Kelsier: If we execute both the Kandra and a Ministry member, that's still a village win, right? The rules say the Kandra dying counts as a villager death, and the village wins if they hit an elim even if they also hit a villager. The actual logistics of getting a tied vote might be challenging cuz evils can tiebreak at the last second fairly easily, but it's worth keeping in mind. Technically, killing them all and letting CadCom sort them out is a valid answer to a Kandra problem, which may or may not give us leeway depending on if it's even a Kandra game Anyways! Can we take a minute to process that TUO has apparently retracted the Hemalurgic Troublemaker claim and is now claiming Hazekiller, which conflicts with Aeoryi's claim? Minimally, there is very likely 3 evil players that actually know they are evil. Minimally, Stick, Aeternum, and 1 in <TUO, Aeoryi> is evil. I think this is pretty much confirmed. I don't particularly think recent events have improved TUO's village equity, but you're welcome to disagree with me on that. So likely our 3 evil players who actually know that they are evil = Stick, Aeternum, and TUO. We just have to figure out which is which, while they try their hardest to mindgame us into getting it wrong.

I also voted TUO Hey what are people's thoughts about there being two jester type roles (both Kelsier and Kandra) in the game? Like, Kas has already reasoned we probably don't have all 4 of the evil roles (+conversion), as that'd mean the rebels don't really have voting majority. But if we suppose that it's a ministry member that's left out of the distro, isn't that honestly pretty cursed? It's the village's job to find and kill evils, and in this world, it's potentially the case that most of the evils are booby trapped to make the village lose. Is this really the world we're living in? The distro I would pick is likely 2 conventional elims and 1 jester, and if that's our situation then the amount of trolling and husky screaming happening rn is actually pretty weird, and basically requires that the actual elims premeditated it in their doc last night.

aaaaa you keep analyzing yourself in the third person and like I'm pretty sure I did exactly that when I was borderline outed and trolling in one of my games

oh I straight up forgor that the ministry leader can convert someone but I'm still an expert on the rules, trust

perhaps TUO and Coffeecat are both fake maybe the Hemalurgic Troublemaker is an NPC role and we've all been had

No it had like herbs and feta and literal just slices of lemon

ok I vaguely remember Aeternum maybe saying this yep, now you've got me curious

fun fact: I recently ate pizza with lemons on it. you won't be surprised to know that it was quite sour it kinda worked though tbh? anyways, I just wanna submit that just from page 1 of the thread, Stick is never a villager tbh unless anybody here wants to argue that joking about randing jester and then immediately going "hmmyes I'm actually not going to claim" is pro-village, or that Stick doesn't know what she's doing

I was reminded a bit of souls declining to claim until others had claimed in order to force people to commit to things that could be disproven. But I just looked back, and souls wasn't the troublemaker, the context was kinda different. Your mileage may vary I guess. Oh I see. I'm reluctant to read into small turns of phrase, but that literally reads like an evil slip tbh. For a villager claiming their actual role, getting it out there isn't majorly time-sensitive, since they likely shouldn't expect anyone else to try and claim it. Coffee should still elaborate, but, to be fair, I don't find either of those people villagery either. And didn't, at that point in my reading of the thread. ...at some point, I'm going to try and have a think about distro and which roles it would make sense to assign to the NPCs for balance reasons. I'm not going to bother with that now, because I don't feel like it and because it'll be better when we have everyone's claims anyhow.

could you spell that one out a bit more? I actually kinda think wanting the people to commit to a claim before you reveal you swapped them is just sensible, and I sorta see a progression wrt the claiming from here to here (note that those posts are only like, 10 minutes apart though lol)

guys, disregard the fact that Kas confirmed my role already, I'm actually the Hemalurgic Troublemaker and I swapped TUO and Coffeecat

well, if you're evil, then you're kind of in a similar situation where you need to pick a claim and push it if you're going to win, most likely

honestly I kinda saw that too that's part of why I'm not sure

Useful rules note #4 - From the phrasing, it kinda looks like the Hemalurgic Troublemaker is allowed to choose not to do anything, if they think that's the best thing to do. Unless our illustrious GM has clarified elsewise? I'm not going to call this indicative for the moment, but it does seem like an interesting topic of conversation.

Lily is largely apocryphal proverbial? both, really Lily is a person who likes fakeclaims a lot it's funny that Kas is implying I'm good at reading her because I actually have fallen for one of her fakeclaims before I've just gotten slightly wiser since then

see at the moment it kinda feels like you're more riled by me saying I don't believe you than you are at Coffee for claiming the same role as you allegedly have I'm running out of good fonts

I really feel I should note that this is a halfbaked Lily read, I don't feel very sure about it Do you agree on Stick/Aeternum being more likely Kandra/Kelsier territory? Regardless, I don't rate Stick disagreeing about TUO/Coffee as very indicative, because like, Stick's probably not trying to help us

honestly I kinda think coffee not sharing swap results right away is kind of a good look? like it doesn't read as someone who's invested in getting believed, whereas TUO is all eager to share who they targeted, maybe I'm being cursed here but I feel like an evil fakeclaimer would be more of a tryhard about it also something just felt off about how TUO said "tentatively" voting for coffee, like I'm sorry what's there to be tentative about coffee just took your role, you've got to decide if it's ministry or jester but it's definitely evil, it feels like there should be more clarity there I dunno to be clear I'm really not entrenched on this, but like, I'm sold enough that it's my current vote my train of thought was "bro wants to be a vanilla villager, let's make him a vanilla villager" sir the game started on a night turn there's not going to be a lot of deep reasons for these things, I spent like a minute on the decision tops

I will make this post in comic sans as tribute to neil

useful rules note #3 - Kasimir is a vanilla villager, even when he isn't I mean, you have to claim something. The way I see it, you have a couple of options. Claim late, when everybody else has claimed, to make sure you get an NPC role with no counterclaims. You are automatically suspect unless you have some role interaction mechanically clearing you. Claim early, and try to guess an NPC role by sheer dumb luck. It'll be great if you guess correctly, but the odds are iffy. Claim early, and make peace with the fact that you're probably going to be in a claim-off with someone, since there's only 1 day to make it or break it. If so, you might as well be the counterclaim, right? As I'm talking through this, I feel I should note that Aeo isn't actually confirmed village, I was wrong about that. Aeo likely didn't claim early enough for the claim to really be clearing.

Option 1: Stick started out as Kelsier (Stick does not know the other evil roles) - If Stick believes she's been swapped, it's in her best interests to claim truthfully, as it is a loss for her and everybody else if the new Kelsier gets executed. *However, Stick is vocally disbelieving in Coffeecat's claim to have swapped her with Aeternum, so this world is a weird one. However, "weird" doesn't disqualify it from being what happened. - If Stick doesn't believe she's been swapped, it probably doesn't hurt that much to claim truthfully, as mindgames ensue about whether Stick is actually Kelsier or a Ministry member. *However, if Stick believes that other people can also figure out she wasn't swapped (which, she probably should believe that in this situation?), then pretending to believe she was swapped actually makes more sense, probably. Because then she can claim "ex" Ministry, and get executed when people figure out that Coffeecat is fake, and win. Option 2: Stick started out as Kandra (Stick knows who the ministry members are, but the ministry members don't know Stick -- also, Stick probably just knows which of TUO/Coffeecat is real, bc the liar is either Kelsier, Ministry Member #1, or Ministry Member #2, and Stick knows 2/3 of those) - If Stick swapped with Ministry!Aeternum, she would likely claim to be ex-Ministry, get Aeternum executed, and then Stick & Aeternum both win gg. - If Stick swapped with non-ministry!Aeternum, well. Either Aeternum was village, in which case Stick is now village and Aeternum is now Kandra, so flagging Aeternum as a jester is pro-village and helps her win condition. Or Aeternum was Kelsier, in which case Stick is now Kelsier, and claiming to have started as Kelsier makes us more likely to believe that she now has a different role, which helps her win condition. Either way, I kinda feel it makes sense? - If Stick doesn't believe she was swapped, see option 1 Option 3: Stick started out as Ministry (Stick and the other Ministry member know each other) - If Stick swapped with Ministry!Aeternum, then claiming Kelsier makes a lot of sense from Stick. *Then again, by the same measure, it makes less sense that Aeternum would claim to have started as Kelsier in this situation. The point of this is for the 2 ministry members to keep each other alive, and that doesn't work as well if they're both huskying it out over who's the real jester. It works much better if only 1 of them is Kelsier. - If Stick swapped with non-Ministry!Aeternum, then claiming to have started as Kelsier is somewhat confusing, because in a village!Aeternum world, Stick only needs to execute Aeternum to win. But well, Aeternum isn't exactly trustworthy. Maybe she assumes Aeternum is Kelsier/Kandra, and plays accordingly. This feels less intuitive to me, though. - If Stick doesn't believes she was swapped, then claiming to have started as Kelsier while shading the person who purportedly swapped her is honestly loltastic, and a viable Ministry strategy for IKYK reasons. I'm not sure if it's the sort of thing Stick would gravitate towards, though, because there are definitely safer options for Ministry!Stick in this scenario. Conclusions: I think what we're witnessing here is just the Kandra and Kelsier getting swapped EDIT: To be clear, I'm willing to be convinced that Coffeecat is the one who's lying and not TUO. But I think looking in <Coffee, TUO> is probably a better shout right now than looking in <Stick, Aeternum>.

Useful rules note #2 - spiked are actually friends not food in this game I've just caught up So let's see, I know people have already done this but sshhshshs lemme do it myself Claims Kasimir - Lerasium Spiked -> Spiked Drake - Spiked -> Spiked Coffeecat - Hemalurgic Troublemaker, Stick<->Aeternum (CONFLICTS TUO) TUO - Hemalurgic Troublemaker, RBM<->Lightringer (CONFLICTS COFFEECAT) Lightringer - Matchmaker, RBM<->Aeternum Stick - Kelsier Aeoryi - Hazekiller Aeternum - ??? RBM - ??? Connectives In the absence of even more people claiming to be the Hemalurgic Troublemaker, exactly 1 of <Coffeecat, TKN> is a rebel, and the other one is evil. In the absence of anybody else claiming Matchmaker, Lightringer is confirmed to have started the game as a villager. If TUO is good, RBM is confirmed good. If TUO is evil, Lightringer is confirmed good. Reads Kas: confirmed village Aeoryi: confirmed village Lightringer: probably village? contingent on TUO/RBM shenanigans RBM: ??? Aeternum: probably some flavor of evil? Stick: Randed village 0%, randed evil who we must exe 50%, randed evil who we must not exe 50%, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I am pretty sure the recent Kelsier claim is actually indicative of what Stick started out as but I need to hash out what it means TUO/Coffeecat: I kinda think the claim is bogus and TUO is evil, I kinda think Coffeecat's claim feels legit. I kinda think it's more likely TUO is the flavor of evil we want to execute compared to say whatever Stick started out as, also nobody's claimed to have swapped TUO so at least that's not something to worry over, TUO

useful rules notes for people who didn't read the rules useful rules note #1 - using default font is for suckers (it's in the rules, trust)

Sure I'll bite. For y'all who didn't read the rules, don't worry about it, I've read them, just trust absolutely everything I say trust