Shaukan-son-Hasweth

He doesn't get a new name. Remember the whole symetry thing is not something integral to the heralds. It's a feature of Vorinism. The actual heralds and their names exist before this religion and have nothing to do with how Vorinism names them. We are biased towards vorin doctrine because most of our characters are from this religion. But remember. This Religion is wrong about many things. It's not closer to the truth than all the other takes on the heralds across roshar. So I think just the same way the vorin church claimed it heresy that the almighty is dead, they wouldn't accept Kaladin becoming a herald. They wouldn't name him

Taravangian airing Jasnahs dirty laundry, bringing up stuff from book 1.

Okay. So some feedback from my side. Generally you did well phrasong your postion respektfully. I'm glad you will read these stories if they are well done. That's what it's for. The thing with the ones that are done badly is, they are just done badly. There's so many weird straight plot lines that don't get picked apart as much. I just want to say something about the tactfullness in general. I don’t think having tact is enough to be honest. I don’t really care if people approve of homosexuality or similar issues. There is no real point in arguing with someones religious believes anyway. These believed don't come from a point of reasoning but a point of faith. Even non religious people have opinions based on faith not reason, we all do. They are often not easily changed. Being tolerant and polite is one thing. But if it's only a front and in secret they vote our rights away is useless. I'd rather people be openly hostile then. What I want any person to understand is, that a society that is truly just and free, has to allow gay people to live freely and openly. A society that feels justified in discrimitating against us, can justify anything. You have values and faith. But so do other people. Protect the world where everyone can live their own. I have a question about the approach of american christians to works like Sandersons books. I've noticed that it's a culture that is extremely sensitive and judgemental to LGBTQ issues and anything to overtly sexual in general. And having been raised christian as well, I do understand where these values come from. What I don’t get is: Books like the stormlight archive are so exzessively violent. It's constantly depicted in detail, sometimes to stories even revels a little in the gore. Violence is not only depicted, it is, in certain instances even condoned. Stormlight as a series explicitly justifies the use of violence. The devout Christians from my former comunity would condem the violence way more than any of the sexual aspects. Sure both not seen as good. But it's pretty clear that killing someone, whatever the circumstances is wrong and a way bigger sin than homosexuality. Also reading about violent things for enjoyment, would also not be seen as great. Where doyou think that diffrence comes from?

I always find it very odd how people accuse any depiction of gay people as indoctrination or a try to make something political. If there were no gay people on Roshar, it would actually be because someone removed a part of the human experience from the Rosharans. It would have be taken as a sign that there is something diffrent about them from our humanity, just like the weird hair genetics. Gay people exist. And always have. No matter what people think about us, we have always been here. There would be no statments against homosexuality in religious texts if we weren't around back then. And so gay people also exist on Roshar. This is true for all marginalised people. Not matter how much people try to condem the inclusion of us as unnecessary, not including us would actually be the active political choice.

Yes! Exactly. These books explicitly deal with colonialism, and the extermination of a native people. What happend to the parshmen is unspeakable. I was really interested in what Brandon would make of that in the coming books. Especially since he's a white American, so firmly one of the ashynites in this analogy. I liked that the injustice that happend to them is treated like a tragedy. I worried it would be portrayed as them somehow deserving it for serving odium. I never knew how I felt about the singers/natives being portrayed as less human and more in tune with nature. Which plays into some stereotypes. But the story explicitly shows them as having had their own culture technology civilisation and also importantly flaws. The singers having injustices among them should not make them less deserving of preservation. I think not getting into the parshmen more is a huge oversight for this theme. It's the damn autocorrect. Yes. And that is done well. But why don't any part of the story revolve around the parshmen. If and how the singers make peace should focus more on them. Not just the listeners and fused.

Sometimes despite it's noble intentions, a work of fiction can unintentionally agree with the points it tries to fight Very minor spoiler for A Song of Ice and fire: I feel something similar is happening to the former parshmen in SA. If there is anyone who suffered the most in this conflict, it's them. We get a lot of emphasis on how the war affected the heralds even the unmade. But the parchment were not only lobotomised and enslaved, but bread like animals for millenia. Now even adult parshmen awaken to a world they never had any agency in, only to immediately be ruled by the voidbringers and forced into battle. They are still treated as a commodity. And I feel how the story is told kind of agrees in some way. Even if the text doesn't. The most prominent role a parshman has in this story is either slave, dead body to accommodate a fused or faceless warrior in scary form that the heroes have to overcome. We never really get a viewpoint from them. Except for that group Kaladin finds in Oathbringer. And there they exist to help his story. They have no agency at all. It fits their them well. I generally think we get to few singer viewpoints, considering this is a story about the conflict between singers and humans. But even when we do, we get the listeners. That the story is more interested in telling their story than that of a parshmen really drives this home for me. This is weird, because dealing with what happened to the parchment could be such an interesting character arc. I really hope the story of the last 5 books changes this. While it is a fantasy book, the analogy of the parshmen to real world issues is really important to what will be the message of this story in the end. I think the reveal that the parchment are the voidbringers in book one was a stroke of genius. Because we at some point come to accept them like the furniture around. The reveal that they are the true natives of roshar was kind of obvious to me because of their biology. But it's also a good part of the story. But after that I think the story kind of failed to make the former parshmen key characters and players in this story, in a way that makes sense for them. I'm interested in their experiences, thoughts and actions. We have characters who are former slaves. We have the theme of radiants coming from anywhere. I really hope this changes in the second arc.

Well, I think stormlight/fantasy is a little diffrent for me than reality or hard scifi. Humans and Singers are diffrent species? Sure. But they are also literally created by the same God. As far as we know, neither evolved in this universe. They were just made. Singers and humans were created so closely in resemblance they can interbreed. So I feel like Adonalsium condoned them getting it on l Would I find it odd to date a warform? Sure. But if others don't they are welcome to it. So long as the consent angle is clear I'm okay with it. In high fantasy humans dating elves is a thing even though the age and power gaps are often insane. The dating a Kandra thing was a little more icky to me. Because you're in some ways dating a corpse. And there was definitely dubious consent going on. On that note. Technically humans on scadrial are as closely related to rosharans as singers are. They to were made from scratch independently from other humans. And come on, what's wrong with Thaylens. They just have long eyebrows, and are definitely human, just not a type that exists on roshar.

Yes I agree so hard! Jasnah is one of my favourite characters ever, because of her unique flaws. Flaws female characters are not often allowed to have. With every physical fight scene we have I never feel any tension in the stakes. I feel I always know beforehand how this is going to play out. But when Taravangian came to argue I felt like "Oh crap, this might go badly. And in unexpected ways no less"

After finishing WaT recently it really hit me how long I’ve been following Stormlight now. Despite my feelings on this last book, the series has become pretty dear to me. Partially because it's been with me for that long, partially because of the story itself. I first discovered stormlight 13 years ago at 17 during the summer break. I was taking driving lessons at the time and my instructor was an incredibly awful and mean person. I’m not good at driving either so on the days when he would pick me up I was super nervous and looking for ways to distract myself. I found the german audiobook version of Way of Kings on my brothers old Ipod. I started listening thankful for a source of escapism and quickly got lost in the world. It felt unique and new. The magic, ecology, cultures and religions of each of Sandersons work is so cool. This is the aspect in which I think, with all of the flaws his writing can have, his creativity is one of a kind and not often matched by others I've read. It maybe the part that will keep me following until the end. In the following years I listend to everything Brandon had to offer. I had plenty of time while doing monotone labor on the farm I grew up on or on my hour long commutes to school everyday. I especially remember that Brandon was once having a book signing in a city I was also hanging out in, and I only learned about it a month later. Man was I bummed out... While I enjoyed all of the works that were later revealed to be part of the cosmere, the stormlight books in particular have been a point of reflection for me. I distinctively remember the phases of my life I was in when each book came out. It’s crazy to think about where and who I was at each instance. So much had changed between each of them. And because of this this series is quite meaningful to me. Maybe any media could have taken that place. But I’m glad it was this one because I do think I took a few valuable lessons away from the themes. Consciously or unconsciously. Now, at almost 30, the themes and messages in Brandons works seem a little bit blunt for me, but back when I was a teenager I really appreciated that. These books have definitely been a huge source of comfort for me to come back to in the past years. Even if it was just for escapism when everything was just a lot. People trying to do the right thing and staying true to their ideals even and especially when it’s not the easy comfortable or convenient thing to do was a very inspiring topic. As cringy as it may sound, but I do think it inspired me to intentionally become a better person, or at least someone with integrity. Also, the characters dealing with their dark pasts and mental state was deeply relatable to me. I still sometimes find myself coming back to Shallans conversation with wit in “The girl who stood up” in oathbringer, or Eshnonais conversation with the Stormfather before she goes beyond. Sometimes these books just said things I really needed to hear at that moment. And nobody else was saying them. With WaT I’m not sure if I haven’t in some ways outgrown the story in this aspect. I still love the world and am thankful and happy that they exist, and I know I will be looking forward to how it ends. For example, I don’t know what it would have meant to me years ago to have a scene with two gay men openly discussing navigating their attraction with each other. Maybe a decade ago it really would have helped to sort things out or give the courage to have these conversations in real life. But now, I can only see it from the other side. In this scenario I’m not Renarin or Rlain. I am Drehy. And maybe it’s like that with the other themes as well. That alone shows what a journey these stormlight infused years have been. I just felt like sharing this. And I'm especially interested to hear from you guys as well.

Yeah that makes sense. And I think what happend to Roshar, while painful, is brilliant. It really is going somewhere new. I think I just mostly understood him implying that while the story of Roshar is only halfway, the arcs of the characters that we followed would mostly be satisfyingly concluded. Opening the stage for the other 5 characters to step from the sidelines and take over. And I think that's only really the case for Kaladin, Szeth and well... Dalinar. For everyone else it feels like the post credit scene in finding Nemo, where they are all stuck in plastic bags swimming in the ocean Yeah. A lot of things are definitely down to taste. These books are huge and I've seen people hate everything I love about them and vice versa. For the visions I do agree with the other argument. The visions were neither cool reveals or epic moments, nor was there much to do for the characters. Mostly I'd say I generally liked what happened in the book. I think the story is going somewhere interesting. The themes work for me and the messages are generally good ones. I just don't really like the how. Idk. Every book so far had moments that I genuinely like coming back to. And parts that I think are pretty good writing. I think this book is lacking something that was so present for me in works like the emperors soul. Let's see.

I get you completely. Maybe it's because I started reading stormlight when I was 17 and now have a lot more to compare it to. Maybe it's because it's actually changed. But the prose in this book really took me out of it. The prose was never what drew me into his books. But there were always scenes that I really liked and genuinely enjoy reading each time. Eshonai returning with stormform. Shallan being comforted by wit in Kholinar. Eshonais death. But this time. None.

I finished it today and Im coming out of it unsatisfied. Because while I like a lot of it's parts, I do not like the whole thing. First of all the ending. Of all the books on this arc it had the least conclusive ending. It felt like we left mid action. Before while there would still be stuff I'd be waiting for, we always ended at a point where the immediate action was taken care of. Now it feels like we're in the middle of the trouble. I had hoped for a more conclusive ending, in case the next 5 books never come. Then there are the visions. There were so many moments that I would have liked to see and that I imagined would turn out to be nice to finally see on screen. The arrival of humans on roshar, the founding of the oathpact, the capture of mishram. All of these could have been amazing but they felt completely flat to me. The choice of having the characters interfere with the events because they are just so used to this stuff by now ruined it for me. All the mystery and awe this should have had after being hidden in the deep past was completely gone. Mostly because of the prose. It was never Brandons strong suit but this time I was constantly thinking "show don't tell". It felt like he was spelling everything out for us. Kaladin becoming a herald and in that combining the healer and the warrior in him is really cool. But did a book that calls every bird a chicken for immersions sake really have to call him a therapist? So many storylines felt needlessly long and embelished. I like Adolin and Sigzil as characters for example. But the stories were so uninteresting I wished they were as short as Jasnahs. The Wind as a character felt like it came out of nowhere. Which is weird because I think this could have been easily implemented in the earlier books. I feel frustrated because there were many things/plotpoints in this book I really like. Dalinar not taking up honor and basically breaking the cycle by making everything worse in the moment felt like the only appropriate choice for the theme. I love that Mishram and Sja'Anat were in the end genuinely not completely evil. I had suspected their story would end by them being corrupted by honor and cultivation. Freeing them from Odium. I really liked Szeths backstory. Not every beat of it. But it explained his character so well. I like where the listeners are at. In general I like that there are a lot of diffrent people approaching the situation differently. Every other book I loved for what it was. Even if it might not have been perfect. This is the first time I wish he had taken more time with, or really done a different approach.

Where are Rhyshadium?

Sel is the major part of the Cosmere I have the most mixed feelings about. It simultainiously contains my least favorite Cosmere book (Elantris) and my absolute favorite (the emperor Soul) There are some really cool ideas present, but at the same time I don't really vibe with the execution sometimes. This applies to many of the aspects of that world but especially the magic system and even more specifically Aon Dor. I like the concept of a simple shape dictated by the form of the land will form the basis of the symbols that essentially become a magical programming language if combined well. It's such a cool Idea. Especially the fact that the symbol in itself will gradually change with the landscape itself. But on the other hand I don't really like how Aon Dor is executed. In a way it's the closest we come to feeling like a standard random fantasy magic system in all of sandersons worlds. It can basically do anything and doesn't have any real limits we know of. You can draw them in the air to get an effect. Inscribe objects to get an effect, shape objects to get an effect. But theres no real insight into how these things take effekt. It just works. Somehow. (Spoiler TotES) Which is fine, it's a fantasy story and magic isn't real after all. But It laks the typical Sanderson feel of "wow this almost feels like a real thing". It doesn't feel like we just don't understand it, it feels like there's not much more to it than that. This is also represented with the diffrent Aons we get. I like the simple ones. The ones that are diffrent combinations of Aon Aon. That's a cool concept. But a lot of them look way to overcrowded and convoluted to be used in the way they are described. They are supposedly also the basis of the alphabet. But the time it takes to draw e.g. Aon Reo you'd be done writing an entire letter in any other script. It's hard to imagine someone drawing a shape this accurately to get the effect in the air as well. I would like the aspect that they are really complicated, if that learning curve was the main/only entry barrier to Aon Dor. But we still have the concept of an Elantrian. Only special people can do it. I think the Emperors soul does almost all of the aspects better. (We don't know how the stamp shapes look in canon) The magic feels deeper and more meaningful. Like you have to be an actual sholar and craftsman to practice it. it has a more limited use and stricter rules. And the vague nature of these rules adds to the feeling of there being a deeper knowledge that we don't understand. What are your thought's on the wordbuilding of Sel?

I'm a little suprised nobody has replied to this. I haven't done the math but had a similar feeling. Even though I liked the story, the worldbuilding of this book streches my suspension of disbelieve the hardest. Most other worlds while also not really possible feel way more coherent in how they work. But there is something about Canticle that just seems like the society depicted would never hold up at all. Somehow they are always at the brink of running out of energy needing to sacrifice people. But on the other hand there is also elderly people around. Because not every person that dies is sacrificed to the sun. There has to be a decent part of the popluation dying in accidents, childbirth, desease etc. So all their souls are lost. Also the general way in which they live seems a little to fast paced to maintain any sort of culture at all.

From the interactions in the book we can assume that Scadrial and Roshar are not on the best terms. So the answer is propably that they don't have access to Stormlight since their opponent controls it

Thank you guys! Rathalas was one of the instances, that I had in mind as well. And the burning pitch is an interesting one. I don't think Jasnah could have cast Petroleum ore something. Since it likely isn't someting she understands that well, since it's not in wide use on Roshar.

I know from Khriss-essay and WOBs in general that the Oxigen levels on Roshar are higher than "cosmere Standard". She warns that it causes Fires on Roshar to be resond unusually. From what I recall, even though spheres are more wide spread, people use fire quite normally in torches, cookfires etc. But are there any instances within the Stormlight books that actually refrence or depict the effects of fire on Roshar. Or was this aspect of the worldbuilding only considered later?

I think it is mentioned that the he can turn into something that has multible diffrent pieces as long as they are touching.

Okay. But I don't really understand why it would be so hard for them to find out they were siblings. Do we know that all of them were raised in the cult of the returned? Or that they were given over to them immediately? I mean. even if me and my brother both died at the same time and returned without our memories. The fact that we are brothers would be one of the first things to come up. We would presumably be in the precence of people who knew us. Or at least be contacted by our family. The few people we would have met and interacted with in the first few moments of our new lives would overlap significantly. And besides. We look alike. And maybe someone just told them. The cult of the returned the five sholars knew does not seem to function like the court of gods. The retruned we see are not scolars or anything. They are basically just displayfigures. So why do we assume that it was forbidden to tell them who they were?

It looks really cool. But I wonder why they interviewed this man in particular. I feel like they couldn't have found anyone less impressed by his own hobby

I don't think "awakening" has to mean using Biochromatic Breath here. It could very well be through Hemalurgy or something. I think in a WoB about SP3 Brandon said that

Since Rythm of war we know that Spren can be killed permanently with the use of anti-Investiture. My theory is that Sigzils original spren might be killed off. And on his way to dealing with that he bonds a highspren. When he's given a dawnshard in the process I don't know

In the book we get very little information about how the ecosystem works on the planet. All that we know is that the Plants grow rapidly in the time between darkness and just before the sunrise and use the light reflected by the rings. Theres everything from Grasses to small trees. And the crops the people plant ahead of the growing wave. All the fauna we know of are “Gazelle like creatures”. These don’t seem to be livestock since they are hunted. But I want to know how this works. Where do the organisms come from? Do the plants drop seeds that endure the sunrise? That seems unlikely since the sun also completely annihilates entire mountains. And this doesn’t explain the existence of animals either. Humans cannot really outrun the sunrise. So I guess the animals can’t either. They also need to stop feed. (I love how this book is so cosmere there are literally no unpinned threads in the non-spoiler section )

I know there is a WOB that states that Singers/Parshmen were created as a part of the Rosharan Ecosystem. But I'm wondering if there is a chance that they have been created from humans not from scratch. Because even though they fit the world well they don't blend in completely. Simply because Singers seem like the human version of a Ryshadium. They are clearly not crustacean like most rosharan lifeforms, even though they have carapace that seems to be mostly granted by their forms. Ryshadium have stone hooves like the shells of chulls now, and are capable of bonding spren. Singers also seem to be mammals by the precence of hair and breasts. And they are capable of interbreeding with humans. If that WOB didn't exist. I would have guessed that the singers were the first humans to ever reach roshar a very long time ago and completely adapted to the ecosystem over time while still having an overtly human origin. If they have been made from scratch instead, why aren't they more like the rest of the native fauna of roshar? I feel like this could also be an interesting point in the narrative if the two fractions find out they are actually related. And that the Ashynite Rosharans would in the long run become more and more singer like. What is your opinion on this?