hoser

What an amazing creative concept! I do have trouble reconciling it with my understanding of the book however, so please help me reconcile it with my understanding of the book. It sounds like you are suggesting that there is one base honorspren that can adapt to ten different concepts of honor, depending on which they see exemplified first. Nohadon, referring to binding spren, said something like "not all spren are as discerning as honorspren". This suggests that honorspren are inherently different from other binding spren. Is he wrong or am I misinterpreting? I think we are seeing two types of binding spren: Syl and Cryptics. Syl, a year into being bonded, is still figuring out what she is doing. The Cryptics seem to understand the bonding process from the start. Chapter 14 has the following sequence: I read this as implying that without the bond and associated memories, Syl would regress to windspren behavior. An interpretation of this is that there are spren with long memories. Spren with the additional Shardic investment to create the Nahel bond seem like candidates for spren with memories. The Cryptics seem like prime candidates to be spren w/long memories and hence inherently different from Syl. Windrunner (an authority second only to Zas, in my estimation) quoted word of Brandon to the effect that Syl is similar to windspren. I don't see the Cryptics being similar to windspren, so, if true, this seems further evidence that not all bonding spren are inherently the same. At the Recreance vision, there seemed to be almost exactly 150 of each of the two orders of Radiants. I can see Honor and/or Cultivation investing 150 of each of 10 types of spren. If they just invested 1500 spren and the characteristics of who the spren saw determined Radiantness, I think the orders would have different numbers of members. Maybe. I basically agree, but, in my view, some of the spren could have ideals from Cultivation. Syl's way of selecting Kal seems very honor-based. Other bonding spren could choose differently, particularly if some are more Cultivation-based.

<snarky sarcasm>I don't know what we are forgetting. Clearly you hadn't forgotten, or you wouldn't be reminding us . I hadn't forgotten and I wrote one of the posts you seem to be responding to . Who is left?</snarky sarcasm> All kidding and snarkiness (I apologize if I hurt your feelings) aside, Syl behaves much like a windspren even with the bond. Without the bond, presumably even more so. It is not through forgetting Kaladin's mistake, but remembering Syl's behavior that I speculate that she may have been a windspren before taking on her Shardic investment. To what do you attribute her windspren-like behavior? I doubt the Cryptics frolic around in highstorms. Further, it doesn't seem coincidental that the abilities Syl imparts to Kaladin involve moving around through the air, as windspren and Syl do.

I am not sure what you want, Gloom, so I don't know what constitutes a positive contribution to your thread. Here goes nothing. Syl's ability to bond w/Kaladin and give him powers, personality and communication seem extraordinary. So I deduce she has a Shardic investment. She dislikes lying and wants Kaladin to save people, so I deduce she is an honorspren as she says, particularly since Nohadon claims they exist. Her shardic investment is presumably from Honor or both Honor and Cultivation. The shardic investment means she could have a splinter associated with her. Nohadon referred to honorspren and he predated the heralds quitting. There is WOB that the almighty was still around when the heralds quit. Thus if she has a splinter of Honor, it is a voluntary splinter provided by Honor. Since I believe the Cryptics are also bonding spren, it is interesting to contrast her to them. She seems to have a physical and spiritual side, but is lacking cognitively without the bond. Where they seem to be cognitively strong with or without the bond, but don't manipulate their physical and gravitational (part of spiritual) sides like she does. Given the contrast with the Cryptics and her behavior, one type of honorspren could be windspren given particular Shardic investment. Following this pattern, maybe all bonding spren are mundane spren enhanced with Shardic investment. Interesting follow-on questions What is the base spren of the Cryptics? Apparently not creationspren, because they don't change their appearance freely. Assuming that there are 10 different bonding spren types, which consider themselves/are considered honorspren?

In the context of their conversation, if Syl hates the armor as much as the sword and for the same reason, I think she would speak differently. Alternate version

I'm sorry Gloom, I don't see it. They are discussing whether Dalinar could be trusted (the title of the chapter). Syl bringing up her antipathy toward the sword was almost a non-sequitur. If Syl felt the same way about the armor as the sword, she could have spoken of the sword and armor together just as easily. She clearly feels strongly about the sword and only the sword. The context of whether he can be trusted would make it more important to relate misgivings she had about the armor, since he still has that. From chapter 73:

I feel somewhat confused as Syl seems to have no problem with Dalinar wearing the armor, the part that could decay. Syl objects to the sword, which is apparently indestructible (although I wonder what would happen if you hit it with another shardblade right where the handle meets the blade).

No problem for me. Dalinar disapproves of my speculation because it's not in uniform. Sadeas disapproves of my speculation because it's not in fashion. Most disapprove because it's naked and not Speedo-ready. I know, I know, a typo. But funny to me. Seriously, this line of speculation seems excellent. It seems like it deserves it's own thread if someone wants to create an OP. I remember the Recreance vision as involving 300 knights and two full orders, likely 150 of each. This I can provide non-uniformed speculation about. Dalinar talks about almost hearing screams. I believe the Radiants are abandoning their oaths and the spren bonds could be breaking also.

Isomere, fantastic post! I don't necessarily agree across the board, but the writing, the imagination and the thoughtfulness really appeal to me. I believe there is a reference to voidbringers using possession in tWoK, perhaps a bridgeman says it. It just seems properly Odious. Don't create your own, corrupt the other guys magic and take over their people. You hate your tools and they hate you because they are being compelled to serve. In Mistborn, consider Marsh. Ruin and Odium have certain compatibiliities.

I'm guessing that's where Hoid comes in. I think that Hoid will escort Taln to the Shattered Plains rather quickly. Taln himself better be able to do some amazing stuff. After all the fuss about the Heralds, it would be disappointing if they couldn't do much.

I don't have quotes, but I have a sense that holding a Shard over time changes a body such that one cannot live without it. I don't think it would have been possible for Tanavast to see Odium coming, make himself immortal like the Heralds, drop Honor and skive off.

Okay. I stand corrected. I guess it's a matter of definition. Is a windrunner a Radiant with the gravity and pressure surges, or just a surgebinder with those surges? Jasnah could probably tell us. "Hey Jasnah, I have a question for you." Musical note. Fire, smoke or statue?

But none of her family seem to have died mysteriously ... What did happen to Dalinar's wife? Just a nitpick, but while Szeth knows he has windrunner abilities,I don't think he thinks of himself as a Windrunner. For me, one of millions of interesting question is how he came by the knowledge of what he can do and was trained. You do bring up an amusing possibility. Jasnah is faking using one fabrial to cover up the use of a different fabrial. I'd bet against it, though. But wait, aren't all spren as discerning as honorspren?

With the Spokane reading from the WoR prologue, we have a Jasnah POV for the night of Gavilar's assassination. This thread is to discuss what we have learned and what hints we can find. Here's what I noticed: The reference to a creepy slave seems like it could well be Szeth, in which case we get some more backstory for him. If true, it still doesn't explain how/why the Parshendi had him and why they thought they could entrust the assassination to him. Jasnah hiring assassins is a new side of her. It seems to hint that she is not unwilling to use them as assassins, an interesting activity for a budding Radiant. Does she develop her Radiant abilities later or is assassination compatible? When considering the party, she thinks of her uncle's activities, but not her brother, mother or father. While it could be a personal connection to one of many getting smashed at the party, it seems a bit odd. When combined with her not-close interactions with her mother in tWoK, it suggests to me that there is a story that may predate her father's death. Shallan doesn't seem to have witnessed any spymaster activities, so either she stopped at some point or she has been hiding it from Shallan. If Jasnah can arrange for a maid to be released and another hired, Jasnah presumably already has a highly placed agent in her sister-in-law's entourage. Are some of these whiffs? What else is there?

No! Not complaining 'bout nuffink. I feel very grateful for all of your efforts. I posted for those not aware of the readings and to make the information available to those less in the know until Windrunner adds the new reading(s) to the OP.

Thanks to Shardlet, Chaos, theofficetroll and WeiryWriter there is a reading from the WOR prologue (Jasnah POV) and an interlude with a sentient vine, both taken in Spokane around 8/8/13. The interlude doesn't seem to be available yet. Edit: made non-superscript font. (don't ask)

Excellent! Devotion+Dominion: Codependence Devotion+Ruin: Decay Devotion+Preservation: Stagnation Honor+Dominion: Hierarchy Honor+Odium: Hypocrisy Odium+Preservation: Resentment Odium+Ruin: Horror Odium+Endowment: Revenge Cultivation+Endowment: Evolution

So you had the name Andrea Digney until you briefly held the Shard named ATHEISTCANUCK before you became the sliver known as CrazyRioter? But by reputation you are a Shard. I'm so confused... Seriously, though, good job with the questions!

There is word of Brandon here that Honor is splintered. My understanding is that Tanavast (holder of Honor) would have died somewhere in the process. I'll see if I can find a quote. Edit: This is the best I found. I think it implies that Tanavast is dead. Interview: 2011 Twitter 2011 (Cosmere) (Verbatim) BTW, the interviews database is a good resource.

I generally agree with this post, but would like to make a possibly pedantic distinction. I think the Nahel Bond and the oaths are both part of the inherent magic system. So the oaths are not part of the Nahel Bond, but they are both part of something larger. The choice to fight at the Tower was one of the acts that qualified him for the power-up. Is a Radiant a Radiant because of the oaths and abilities or because they are part of an organization, or both? I don't really care about the official definition. Kaladin and maybe Jasnah are proto-radiants and that's enough for me. Well, I know nothing. But I tend to agree with your point here. While apparently the armor does make up for a lot of physical infirmity, there must come a point where one can't fight. If you are a retired knight, are you still a Radiant? Would Syl would abandon Kaladin just because he got old? Consider if you were a surgebinder and just used your power without doing harm, but weren't interested in doing good, like, say, going from town to town barnstorming and showing off your powers to make a living. From Kaladins highstorm dream, maybe the Radiants can detect when powers are being used, but as long as you are not doing harm, they might not force you to stop. This actually bears on Nohadon's speech where he wishes that all spren were as discerning as honorspren. For windrunners, there probably isn't an option. Kaladin won't attract an honorspren like Syl unless he acts honorably. But consider Shallan in the case where she is forming a bond with a cryptic. Her outstanding attributes are her art and her budding scholarship. Both strong intellectual accomplishments, but not particularly honorable or good (not to say that Shallan won't be heroic, just that the cryptic might bond with her regardless). So maybe the cryptics are one of the less discerning types of spren. I could imagine a choice for such a oerson where they could just do art or scholarship and soulcast a bit, but not want to commit to being a Radiant. Unless such a person was doing harm, I doubt the Radiants would imprison them (although they might hire them).

This is a really interesting theory. I find it somewhat jarring. The book back also says: I believe that Brandon has said that the series involves the return of magic. If magic doesn't end up being involved significantly, then much of the first book is a non-sequitur. Once the Radiants exist, they are much more powerful than ordinary Surgebinders because of the oaths. The Radiants would suppress any surgebinders who were not honorable. Kaladin is sworn to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Is he going to just ignore unethical surgebinders using their powers to oppress people? If you are ethical, why wouldn't you oath up and become more powerful?

Yeah, in Shallan's flashback, it's long before Amaram got it. But neither of us think it's a Shardblade anyway. Shardblades are boring anyway. This could be something new and interesting.

We don't know that Helaran had a Shardblade unless he was the Shardbearer Kaladin killed, do we? If he was the Shardbearer Kaladin killed, then it is bound to Amaram.

It seems I've offended. It was not my intention to be offensive. I can see where it may have seemed to you that I was piling on. I actually admired your phrasing and flattered it in the sincerest way later in my post. I had not seen your latest post at the time I was writing (looking up Taravangian's exact words took a little time). And, technically, no, you didn't admit your error. You acknowledged a fair point and said that you stood behind it not being a spren, but you did not admit to having made a mistake in the post that I had not read. I "personally" agree that there was a Shardblade present. I "personally" think that it is "currently (at the end of book 1)" bound to Shallan. Although I suppose it might be bound to Amaram also. Why would someone put a Shardblade in a safe? Just pick it up and drop it. Can't be stolen, ten heartbeats away, so I agree that it is probably not a Shardblade. Ah, the Honorblades. I doubt they are buried under a mountain of crem on the Shattered Plains. But why haven't we heard about them. They are powerful and provide evidence of the Heralds' duplicity. I am sure that Brandon is doing something interesting with them. The Radiants could have found them and put them somewhere safe, I suppose, but that seems kinda boring. The Ghostbloods could have them, but I doubt they would give one to Shallan's father. Really, I think if any Vorin entity had had them for 4500 years, we would have heard of it. The theological implications are tremendous, and Shardblades are really the foundation of the nobility. If some were more powerful and behaved differently, it would be known. I don't see how they can be active in Vorin society. Really, I thought your phrasing was perfect and was praising it. You had a theory that you hadn't fully examined and were attaching a disclaimer. I will apologize explicitly if you want. Possibly a Dawnshard, but what do you think of the idea that it should be active to be called a monster? I think the Dawnshards require an active entity to be used, not unlike the Shards of Adnauseum.

Is personal disagreement when we disagree, but don't have strong evidence ? This! And the use of the word "monster". I think a monster is a being with activity. Taravangian calls Szeth's sword a monstrosity, not a monster. If we think the young Shallan doesn't use the big word monstrosity, she could still think "monstrous thing". Occam's razor says that it is the soulcaster or gems, because they we know they glow and they'd fit in a safe. But for me personally there are too many discrepancies. My question is: what glows, is active and fits in a safe? The only thing we've seen are people infused, but I doubt the safe is that big. I think it is something new.

Ideally, we are just trying to puzzle it out together. Your theory raised questions for me and I thought I could give you some more data to work with. The parshendi, like Szeth, are a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. I admire your willingness to try to pierce the veil. The questions you are trying to answer are puzzling. Who are the Parshendi gods? Odium is the obvious heavy. But he is singular and I can't imagine him creating a race. I can imagine Cultivation creating the Parshendi. But she is singular and I don't see her using them to try to wipe out everyone in desolations. Maybe the gods are the Voidbringers corrupting Cultivation's Parshendi, maybe with corrupted spren? But why do the Alethi think the Parshendi refer to the chasmfiends as gods? Why wouldn't they want them back? Where have they been? What happened to them for all this time? What role did they play way back when? Edit: punctuation