hoser

I think the Radiants were hugely important. Before the Radiants: Entire nations were annihilated. After: ten stable kingdoms. persisting across multiple desolations. Current technology: primitive compared to that of the Radiants. Humans w/Shards << Radiants w/Shards (reread Kaladin vs Moash and the other Alethi traitor (who both had armor) if you are in doubt) Taravangian's plan: assisted by Odium (unmade support w/Szeth, prophecy and the Thrill in the civil war in Jah Keved). Even if Mr. T is not entirely misguided, his goal is not to win, but to survive. Nale's behavior makes no sense given what we know, so interpreting it can lead wherever we want.

Good catch on Szeth. Thanks! Lift and Shallan could become fighters, as anyone w/a Shardblade could, but they have shown no real interest. Shallan had the perfect opportunity to learn self defense skills from Tyn and did everything else. In the warcamps, she maybe could have used learning self-defense as her pretense for spending time on the fighting grounds rather than sketching armor sets (not sure about the strength of Alethi social mores, so this might not have been workable). I believe she could also have learned the rudiments of self-defense from her brothers, had she wanted to. Had Lift wanted to become a fighter, I have to believe that growing up as an orphan in Ral Elorim afforded her many opportunities. Further, an order with the attributes loving/healing doesn't seem to make the likeliest combatants, Combat medic is not what I see as dedicated to battle. It is interesting that Nale ignored the battle against the Voidbringers, when his intervention might have prevented the Everstorm. I think if he had led in the battle against the Voidbringers on Roion's flank it would have made a difference. But Nale could be crazy or serve Odium, so we can't read too much into his reluctance to fight. I'll call Szeth dedicated to battle for now, but I'm really not sure. The orders we have seen fighting in the flashbacks (Windrunner, Stoneward and order 3 (forgot the name)) seem correct based on their attributes. While individual inclination must play a part, we have seen w/Kaladin that his powers desert him when he runs counter to his order's attributes. In addition, I could easily see Eshonai (leadership, exploration), Adolin (leadership) and Szeth (law enforcement, scholarly pursuits) evolving away from combat roles. So I see: Adolin: dedicated Kaladin: dedicated to battle Szeth: dedicated Eshonai: dedicated Unknown stoneward: dedicated Dalinar: no longer dedicated to battle Jasnah: not (while the Alethi warred on the voidbringers, where was she?) Lift: not Navani: not Renarin: not (maybe eventually, but maybe not) Shallan: not Ym: not So, gratuitously overestimating the combatant numbers, we still have only 5 of 12. The statistics of such small numbers are ludicrous, of course, but I can easily see that over half the "Knights" might not be focused (though not incapable) on combat.

One of four dedicated to battle? Both "capable" and dedicated. Let's look at what we've seen. Kaladin: dedicated to battle Dalinar: no longer dedicated to battle Jasnah: not (while the Alethi warred on the voidbringers, where was she?) Lift: not Renarin: not (maybe eventually, but maybe not) Shallan: not Ym: not 1 of 7 Assuming Navani (not dedicated to battle), Eshonai (dedicated), the unknown Stoneward (dedicated) and Adolin (dedicated) become Radiants: 4 of 11. It doesn't seem too far off.

One minor nitpick. IIRC, they walked off together and joined another group, presumably their squires.

This is really interesting. I can't believe I missed it. I do see some problems w/it, however. The Heralds lied about having won. We have WoB that Honor was still around after the Heralds packed it in. So the first four assumptions are: The Radiants believe the lies of the Heralds. Honor does not let the Radiants know that the Heralds have lied. But wait. We know from the visions that Honor thinks the only hope for people is the return of the Radiants. Why would he not clue the Radiants in about their future necessity? The Radiants' prophetic abilities don't let them know that the Heralds lied. The spren either don't know or don't tell the Radiants that the Heralds lied. This is the premise and it seems farfetched to me. In the Starfalls vision, the Radiant tells Dalinar that their purpose is to ward against Desolations. The fact that they stayed together long after the Heralds quit indicates that they knew the Heralds were lying. The Radiants are a supranational organization that maintains the ten Silver Kingdoms with stable borders. These kingdoms did not fight each other. The kings do not have Radiants like the Alethi princes own ardents. The Radiants are coherent orders until the end, as we can see from the Recreance. Sure there may have been individual traitors and disagreements between the orders, but there is no support that I know of to suggest that some members of one order would try to kill a force including Radiants from the same order without discussing the matter. The Radiants had knowledge and technology that they didn't share w/the muggle kings. That indicates that the Radiants were more loyal to their orders than the kings. Another assumption is that the Radiants didn't care about the artifacts left behind. But why would they leave only certain artifacts around? Why soulcasters, but not the healing fabrials? The fact that the Radiants deliberately left only certain fabrials behind suggests that there was a purpose. It is an interesting theory, but for me it raises more questions than it answers.

Maybe it's impossible, but it's not clear to me. I think his actions have failed because his intention is to preserve and he is operating from a sense of entitlement. To act properly, he needs a positive vision. Preserving is not really positive. If only there were a book that could help kings rule in a positive manner. As it stands, he has essentially abdicated to Dalinar, who has had more of a positive vision due to the in-world WoK and his visions. But Dalinar now has responsibilities for the Radiants and the whole world. I could see Elhokar having the book read to him and taking guidance from Kaladin and Dalinar to become a better leader and possibly even a Radiant. Kaladin's next challenges are likely to revolve around leadership, so if he is in contact w/Elhokar, it would fit his further development as a Windrunner. While Kaladin is likely to spend the next book in Alethkar, the Oathgate could be opened and Elhokar could (and probably should) travel there. In an odd way, Elhokar knows that he can absolutely trust Kaladin. If Elhokar starts shaping up, Kaladin could more easily support him.

A truly superior nobility has been a part of this genre going back at least to Tolkien. While Tolkien (IMO) was nostalgic for the heydey of the english aristocracy, consider Brandon's creations. In Mistborn, while Vin may have been a commoner, Elend was the heir of one of the foremost noble houses. In Elantris, we saw a crown prince and a princess. In Warbreaker, we have two princess sisters. Now we have the Kholins, who just happen to have started in Nohadon's capital city. The Kholin's could conceivably be the linear descendants of Nohadon.

The below all seem possible, and I see some other possibilities. It could have been part of a plan that included the Radiants re-arising and needing the shards to be around. They could have done it due to a realization that their continued operation was a worse threat. They could have realized that their Oaths or the spren were inherently flawed. Their actions were dishonorable, as you point out. I can see them doing it as a choice between dishonorable actions (lesser of two weevils), but I have trouble seeing them doing it in response to an atrocity done to them. It is interesting that they were apparently very deliberate about which magical items they left behind that were usable: Soulcasters and Shards, but not Oathgates (with 1 exception) or the healing fabrial that Nale uses. Why those exact ones?

In tWoK, Syl claims to have helped men kill before. I don't see how she could not have been a pre-recreance honorspren that had had a bond. I assume that she was just not bonded at the time of the Recreance. I think that's why she saw the need to bond despite the Stormfather's prohibition.

I like this idea. And yet, Szeth was named Truthless for suggesting that the Voidbringers were returning (or something similar). When he thinks that the Radiants are back he considers it the "end of all truth." So I think the Stone Shamans believe the lies of the Heralds that remained. Doubting those lies seems to be their greatest heresy.

I think the extra piece in Syl's case is that she pushed stormlight to Kaladin when the bond was too weak. She was OK, but cognitively weaker and he couldn't draw stormlight when she wasn't right with him. When he fell, she forced stormlight to him and then went into a worse state.

This would be very interesting. I've thought of it, but ... The following quote suggests that the Oathpact is not over for the existing Heralds. With no-one holding the Shard of Honor, it may also make altering the Oathpact difficult. If someone were to reassemble Honor, it seems more likely. OTOH, the speculation about Taln or not-Taln suggests that heraldry may be transferable. {offtopic}I have never seriously downvoted a post. Am I the only one tempted every time they see an irrelevant post using the word "stick?"{/offtopic}

I love both the developing spren bond and awakening the Shardblade ideas. I hope either or both works out. However, I read the scene as his confidence being shaken and him being distracted by the way he was handled by Szeth the night before. Given his antipathy toward Kaladin at this point, Kaladin's greater effectiveness probably didn't help. He is used to being a complete badass, and he was useless. He also took a beating and, IIRC, didn't sleep the night before. While the above could be contributing, they don't seem necessary to explain his difficulty.

The Lightweavers don't have oaths after the first, but that doesn't mean their "truths" can't be categorized. We know Shallan's fourth truth, but a single sample makes it hard to generalize. We know two other truths, but they presumably were to recover her relationship w/Pattern so they may not have been like the original truths she used. On the nearly baseless speculation side, I will go with: Lightweaver #2: strong emotional truth Lightweaver #3: strong factual truth Lightweaver #4: strong truth about past Lightweaver #5: strong truth about future/purpose

Sorry maxal, accidentally down voted the above on my mobile phone. Could someone please correct my mess up. Thanks

Snap-upvote: welcome new poster and "plains-shattering" But, yeah, it's been discussed and the chapter title for when they emerge is something like: "True Glory."

Yeah, I can see what you're saying. OTOH, Vasher and now Nale apparently have handled Nightblood successfully. Assuming Nale has had Nightblood for most of the time that Vasher has not had him, Nale has had Nightblood for a long time. If Nale wanted Szeth dead, all he had to do was not resurrect him. Szeth doesn't seem greedy or undisciplined, so I could imagine him working well with Nightblood. Much like Syl lightens up Kal's viewpoints, I can see Nightblood's cold-unblooded "banter" making Szeth's POV much more enjoyable. {off topic}What does Odium think of Nightblood?{/off topic}

In the Goodreads interview discussed here, Brandon provided the following answer: The quote from the interview database says that there were three different kinds of Shardblades in tWoK. Did we see Nightblood in tWok? Are kinds different from types? If not, then have we learned anything about the three kinds, or were we just totally trolled? I realize that much of the interest in the original quote was about figuring out whether Szeth had Jezrien's Honorblade, but here are the possibilities we've come up with for the meaning of the original quote: Live sprenblade, dead sprenblade, Honorblade; pro: fits what we know; con: his answer at Goodreads is misleading or uncomprehending of the original quote. Sprenblade, Honorblade, Awakened blade; pro: Goodreads quote works with original hint. If Wit's sword is an awakened blade like Nightblood or yet another kind of Shardblade we are getting actual information. con: Since Nale is not described as having a blade, then we haven't "seen" Nightblood (as Moogle suggests) and there is no evidence to support the notion that Wit's sword is special except Wit's magical acquisitiveness. Honorblade in muggle hands, Honorblade in Herald hands, sprenblade; pro: fits what we know; con: Goodreads answer is not helpful, Is a blade a different kind if wielded by a different person? Edit: Original quote says kinds, not types, list possibilities from thread

I think he is basically there, and just has to walk to the hills he already sees. The next city he sees will be Hearthstone. Consider the following excerpt (SA3 spoiler):

If we assume that Urithiru is in the mountains near the Nightwatcher's valley, the distance from Urithiru looks further on the map of Roshar and involves crossing a mountain range. The recharging from the storm would have helped as you point out. He doesn't have that much experience that he could calculate precisely, I suspect. What is interesting is that his route from the Shattered Plains to Hearthstone passed nearly over Kholinar. They could have set up a Stormlight refill for him there using spanreeds (or he could have just tried to negotiate it himself). During his trip, he could get a sense of how far an infused gem would take him. With a refill anywhere along the way, he should have been able to make it before the Everstorm. But who am I kidding? He is meant to fail and arrive after the Everstorm for the plot. Shutting up now ...

He already failed to save Tien. If there is a consequence for the bond, it has already occurred. In a sense, his commitment to protecting kids like Tien is what drew Syl to Kal in the first place (she said the gratitude of his squadmembers was a distinguishing factor). IIRC, he wrote to his parents, telling them that Tien was dead and that he would not be returning, so they already know that Tien is dead. His parents, if they are still there, will likely be overjoyed to see him. SA3 Spoilers:

I like the idea, but am not convinced. My issues concern investiture and quantities thereof. We have WoB that Syl (and I assume all Nahel bond spren) are "splinters", which represents a significant amount of investiture. I have trouble imagining Odium giving even one of his Unmade the power to dispense significant amounts of his investiture in order to create splinters from simple spren. So I conceive of these changed spren as having less investiture than Syl. Corrupting, changing or possessing seems to fit perfectly with Odium's intent. Influencing people to feel the thrill, creating simple deadly Midnight Essence that are nowhere near a Radiant, corrupting a spren don't seem as significant as turning minor investiture into splinters. I imagine the Unmade at a comparable investiture/power level to the Heralds. While the Heralds seem powerful, I don't see them able to do something as powerful as converting a windspren to an honorspren. So what makes the Nahel-bond spren? I see them as arising from the combination of H&C's investiture, Roshar's nature, the patterns established by the Heralds (hence no spren that grant Pressure and Soulcasting) and the thoughts of the beings on Roshar. Beings think about the patterns in nature and a significant amount of investiture coalesces into a Cryptic. I can imagine Tanavast or Cultivation choosing to create an honorspren or a Cryptic, but not the Stormfather. I don't have a clear enough picture of the Nightwatcher and her relation to Cultivation to say anything coherent about her capabilities.

Why do you say this? I know of no connection between the shattering of the plains and the Oathgate. What have I missed? Please enlighten me.

I want this to be a contribution to an interesting (to me!) discussion, not a stubborn defense of a previously held belief. Another possible interpretation is that the quote from Chapter 60 is referring to the time between the end of tWoK and when Shallan "draws" him into the physical. It fits with what Wyndle and Syl describe about the transition to the physical and the effects on memory. Shallan interprets it this way, as I read it. The text immediately following the above quote: On this interpretation, the quote you offer is the answer to the question you ask above (Why doesn't Pattern talk to her at all in the days between her second Soulcasting (end of tWoK) and summoning him near the beginning of WoR?). As he says: "I could not speak." Although Shallan interprets him as referring to the more recent, shorter time just preceding the sinking of the ship, that doesn't prove that Pattern isn't referring to a longer time encompassing the events of tWoK. Thank you also! These quotes seem very relevant. The idea that he was mostly in the cognitive and that "the bonding was started again" seem more compatible with the thought that Shallan interacted with Pattern in tWoK to me.

Thanks again. When you explain it more thoroughly, I can see it. The quote seems really relevant also. Now I can see it both ways. Darn you for popping the fragile bubble of my simple certainty with more information!