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@Whispsy Ah, my bad, it's been a while since i last read WoK. But still, the highstorms are not nearly as bad at the Calm Lake than at Alethkar. ]quote] The Way of Kings, Hardcover, page 267 The storms weren't so bad out here as they were in the East

Ah. good point dj25792. I just checked the other thread i mention in my previous post and it DOES say etched. From what i recall though, all the description of Dalinar's Plate glow is mentioned with like "almost" or "seems". Considering the full out bright glowing from of the Radiants from the visions I would say Dalinar has only achieved partial glow. Here's an interesting observation the glyphs are ETCHED and not something that just shows up... Isn't it interesting that none of the current day Plates have glyphs etched on them? The vision of the Recreance (Hardcover page 731) shows the Plates discarded there had glyphs on them. So it's not as if some of the Plates didn't have glyphs and those were the ones abandoned

Should we include Taln to the list? I believe he has been confirmed to be a POV in the 2nd book and he IS a herald...

I'm not sure if i'm reading this right but could you clarify on what makes the Blades and Plates different? You start by saying that it seems as of the Blades AND Plates have some Spiritual connection to the wearer, which I agree with, as supported by the summoning of the Blades and helms. Then you go on to say, "Thus". You mention how they are similar then say because of this similarity they are different? It's a bit confusing.. Also, I don't know if I'd say that the Plates cannot form a new spiritual bond with someone. If you say the Radiants had a proper bond with the Plates, the differences we see between the Plates then and now is that (1) they glow with glyphs and (2) the helm can be summoned/banished. However, there is evidence of this sort of 'proper' Plate wearing in current times, Dalinar. Here's a thread with some citations on the matter: So it appears that Dalinar is/was creating this spiritual bond, although he just gave his Plate away to his son so who knows what we'll see on that. So I think it's more that people have forgotten how to bond with the Plate then it not being possible at all.

I don't think it's so simple that the highstorms go around the world. If you look at the interludes in WoK, you can see that the western countries suffer much less than the eastern countries, not just Shinovar. Sorry i don't have the book with me right now so i can't quote but the Calm Lake is smack in the middle of Roshar (well slightly north, but east-west wise) and they don't have to find shelter at every highstorm, you can actually just float in a boat through it. There's also the interlude with the spren researcher who can manipulate his body. I can't recall specifically but i know he's in a city in the northwestern part of Roshar, and i believe there is mention of calmer weather (not sure). Anyways it appears the highstorms diminish in strength as they move westward significantly enough that it's not just going around. Also, the fact that highstorms ONLY come from the east is very unusual to be the case for the entire planet, and is definitely supernatural. This to me says that there is some sort of Origin of Storms to the east that's producing the highstorms, and i doubt the highstorms go all the way around the world.

So we know that Hoid hops around the different worlds like all the time. And he seems to, to varying extents, put himself in the middle of the action, albeit usually briefly. So my question is... Do you think the Shards can detect Hoid? Wouldn't it be weird for the Shards to see some dude hopping around entering their territory, do random stuff and leave? I feel that could seriously piss some of the Shards off (like Odium or Ruin before he died) seeing it as some sort of interference and maybe even attack him. So i'm thinking maybe he has a way of hiding himself from a Shard's notice. I got the idea from reading a recent thread on Hoid But, if I follow my logic here, members of the Seventeenth Shard would also have a way of hiding their presence since they can hop around too.

Interesting... It definitely would provide some insight into Hoid's objectives in the scheme of things. We've seen him everywhere involved to some degree with events in the books but don't know why he's actually doing.. I like it!

Hmm.. I always thought the spren had something to do with the Spiritual Realm? I kind of saw them as the spiritual manifestations of things in the world. As to why they're only on Roshar... i kind of thought it was had to do with one of the Shards, most likely Cultivation. Hm..

Do you think they might also have some connection to the Seventeenth Shard? I mean considering Hoid's connection with them. If Hoid did indeed create them, he definitely could have some sort of ulterior motive in establishing those groups (then again, i could see it not be too =p), but still. If Hoid did NOT create them, taking into account Mi'ch's report of BS's words, the Seventeenth Shard could have established them instead. Okay just thought of some wild ideas but what if the Worldbringers and Worldsingers are like training grounds for members of the Seventeenth Shard? I mean the SS are an organization, not a planet, so members must come from somewhere, and since they're worldhoppers, it makes sense that they recruit from multiple worlds. Maybe they choose outstanding members from the World- groups and recruit them. I guess this becomes a bit convoluted if you then think about Hoid's connection to the SS (the Letter) and the Worldsingers (was one and mentored one). I forget but was Hoid ever a part of the SS or has he always been separate? answer/clues might be in the answer to that question? hmmmm

I like your idea on the connections between the Ghostbloods and Oldbloods. LIke you said, Oldbloods are known, but Ghostbloods are obviously much more secretive. Their name itself makes that apparent too "ghost". Now, though we don't know exactly what the Oldbloods are, and whether they do have a connection Vorinism, but it seems very possible, it brings up interesting ideas. Like BS has said, its not about having traditional evil people but people with different ways of doing things that end up conflicting, even if the goal is the same. From Kabsal's conversation with Shallan, it would appear that they're purpose isn't simply to cause chaos and destabilize, but like Taravangian says to Szeth in the end, they're trying to organize humanity to fight the Voidbringers in their own way. I don't know if Taravangian is a part of the Ghostbloods, he seems to be of a leadership person, a person in charge, but Thaidakar seems to be the leader of the Ghostbloods. However, I could totally see Taravangian being a part of the Ghostbloods in order to manipulate them, just as he's fooling everyone else with his sporadic intelligence, my bet is that if Taravangian is in the Ghostbloods, the Ghostbloods don't know about Szeth. So, so far it seems like, Dalinar, Ghostbloods, and Taravangian are 3 forces who seem to have the same goal: organize humanity to fight the Voidbringers, but are obviously doing it each in their own ways, which seem to foreshadow major conflicts between them. This is just guessing but i have a feeling that Elhokar's wife is going to become a bigger character in the next books, i mean she's keeping Alethkar together (possible connection to Amaran) not to mention Taln is (last seen) there. So possibly 4 difference forces. *note I don't know how the Envisagers are going to play into this, but i don't think (or rather i hope) they are separate from the Ghostbloods and Vorinism (as a religion) groups. I've always though them to be a secret society made by the Radiants. Maybe the last Radiants saw their powers disappearing/going whack, and created a little group sort of like the Society of the Second Dawn from The Night Angel Trilogy (sort of), and their mission was to teach the new Surgebinders how to use their powers with the knowledge that was passed down. But i do think the Engisagers aren't completely wiped out and they'll slowly come into play

I'm of the opinion that the Dawnshard and Honorblades are different. First is simply the fact that they are both written as with a capital letter. This makes it a name, not simply what its called. A blade and a Blade have very different connotations, and other than titles, objects don't usually have multiple names, and especially for a group of objects. Why have 2 words for the same thing? Also, Dawnshards and Honorblades are both mentioned sparingly throughout tWoK. It's easy to think of them as the same thing because they are established to be different from Shardblades and much more powerful, but i don't see any evidence of them being used interchangeably. Saying that they are the same seems to be pure conjecture. Also, in the quote from Tanavast about choosing a Champion but the absence of Dawnshards. The language, "without the Dawnshards..." seems to imply that the Dawnshards are lost or destroyed, ie. Tanavast does not know where they are or cannot gain access to them. The Honorblades however are shown to be accessible. At the end of the book, Taln shows up carrying his Honorblade. Also, the rest of the Heralds left their Honorblades all together. I know Brandon has mentioned that we have seen some of the Heralds in the book, and some others have been talked about, so the Heralds are still alive! They know where the Honorblades are, so they are not lost or destroyed, the Dawnshards however are. It seems to me that little as there is, there is some evidence that the Dawnshards and Honorblades are different. On the other hand, there isn't any evidence that they are actually the one and the same. Believing that they are the same is pure conjecture, and the believer's own jump in logic.

Yay for parshman not necessarily being voidbringers, or at least not that simple. But hot sauce makes it easier. It would be truly miserable to eat a shoe WITHOUT hot sauce.

Mmm very interesting. Shard Obsessed makes some really good points. I agree on that I think Odium can't create, Odium is hate, he hates everything, life, creation, existence? Haha, random thought, what if Odium's ultimate goal is to Splinter all the Shards and then Splinter himself? Sort of like a killing spree ending with suicide? Splinter since I don't think Shards can't be destroyed?

The similarities of Roshar to the map of Shadesmar makes me think that the map is specific to Roshar. Also, I have no idea what the differences between the Expanses, Nexuses and Seas would be, or even what they are, although Nexus of Truth is one of them, and considering Shallan... Anyways, considering number of worlds, etc. what if not all the worlds are connected directly in Shadesmar, or maybe it's easier to move in certain ways? Kind of like transition areas or what not to shift to another world? It seems likely that specific areas have significance in regards to the different worlds, or else someone who could step into Shadesmar could pop back out in another world without having to move a step inside Shadesmar. So here's an idea. If each world's Shadesmar is shaped differently, then proximity of these "transition areas" or i guess could call them portals would change. So what if it's easier, or only possible to get from one world to the next by going to a different world's Shadesmar first? So say Scadrial to Sel on Scadrial's Shadesmar is like 10 miles, but stopping by Roshar makes it easier because Scadrial to Roshar is 2 miles and Roshar to to Sel is 4 miles (or something like that). I know totally wild theory, but, 'what if?'

I saw this pick and immediately thought, storm wall!! Hmm... don't know how to make the preview bigger.. it's an HD photo. So it'll get HUGE if you click on it.

From my readings of WoK, I'd always been under the impression that parshmen were not used as servants until after the Last Desolation. I think I sort of imagined a Desolation to start with like some sort of super highstorm and not only rain but and what not, the Voidbringers and thunderclasps, etc came with it. We know all the high storms come from the east, and I think it was confirmed(?) Taln is wet from swimming across the ocean or something of the sort? Considering, I don't think it's odd to think to the east is some sort of portal or what not to where all the Voidbringers waited in between Desolations. I'm actually of the mind that the parshmen aren't Voidbringers. Or rather, I don't see it as it being definite. I don't have much evidence, but it just seems too simple for it to be the case, and there ARE some holes in the theory. If the parshmen are Voidbringers, didn't everybody notice the sudden appearance of a new race of beings? Wouldn't they notice a likeness of the marble red and black of the parshmen to the Voidbringers? I feel like it wouldn't matter whether or not everyone believed the Desolations were over. After having lived through such horror, I think people would have immediately destroyed anything that even resembles the Voidbringers. The parshmen would have served as a constant reminder of the Desolations, people don't just accept, "Yay it's over. Oh, look they look like Voidbringers, kinda, hmm lets use them as servants!". No, it would go more like, "Oh This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules, CRAP KILL THEM" Of course there are numerous explanations to cover, but I just don't like it how everyone seems to think it's practically established as a fact that the parshmen are Voidbringers. I have my doubts and eager to RAFO. Besides, considering how Jasnah is so used to being right all the time, wouldn't being wrong about this be a great way for character development? Taln could do it too but she could easily just no believe him, considering she doesn't believe in Vorinism (therefore the Heralds too?)

Definitely "Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination." I like it almost as much as WoT's "Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain." But the scene I open the book for from time to time is when Kaladin does the katas in chasm. Love it!

I saw this on the Wikipedia page for Warbreaker under Reception.

The Radiant's weren't part of the Oathpact, they seem more like an Order created by the Heralds to help them fight the Voidbringers. If they are tied something, I would assume it'd be the Ideals. From that conversation between Jezrien and Kalak. Jezrien says that though the Oathpact ends, the Radiants will still remain, and from the looks of it, they could easily have lied to the Radiants as well, that they had finally won. So obviously the Heralds thought the Radiants would remain and didn't see any reason for them to disband. But they did, we don't know the reason why, but they did it very differently than the Heralds. I really don't get where the idea that the Radiants put a part of their soul into their Plates comes from. The Shardblades have a security function of disappearing when let go so that somebody can't just come up and steal it. This in itself implies to me that there isn't an intimate tie between bearer and Blade. The Heralds' Honorblades on the other hand disappear when they die, and remain even if they let them go, having no need for that security system. This seems to show that the Honorblades and the Heralds are closely tied and cannot be separated, this seems more like the soul-tying thing. Also, How the Heralds and Radiants abandoned their respective oaths or whatever are different. The Heralds sink them in the stone, abandoning them. The Radiants don't just abandon their gear, but they give it away. Why not just take them off at Urithiru and leave? It's one thing to abandon a piece of your soul, it's quite another to give them away to a complete stranger. They didn't even hand it each to one person, they just left them in front of a group of people and let them fight over it. Considering the capabilities and power of the Blades and Plate, and without a responsibility of use tied to them, they knew that there would be chaos if they just handed them out but they still did it. Can you imagine, do you really think someone would let some total stranger pick up a pat of their soul and use them to kill other people for a petty reason like greed and desire for power and simply just walk away as their own souls were killing people right behind them? It's an interesting theory, but I don't think their souls are quite tied to the Blades and Plate. Brandon doesn't have people act non-humanly, that's what so great about good character development and writing. You can't have people doing things that deny logic, at least not a group as big and pervasive as the Radiants (maybe a small random tribe cut off from the world or something, or individuals, like the Joker, "some people just want to see the world burn"). Readers have to empathize with characters and their actions, get to know them, like them or hate them, but feel that they could actually exist, or else it just considered bad writing.

But why would the Radiants discard a part of their souls? That part isn't explained in your little theory. I thought Dawnshards are different from Honorblades. We don't know exactly what the Dawnshards are. I don't think it's even definite that there are multiple ones or not.

AWESOME!!! and ON NOM NOM

Hmm... I think plushies are an AWESOME idea. And since it was Brandon's idea (he's at least partially involved) it should be easier to know if there are any copyright infringements too. For the ads.. *holds up crucifix* I'd much rather have them grouped up than spread out on the page (2 on top and another 4 on the bottom). Something like facebook where they're all on the side might work, although how that effects ease of viewing posts might change because right now on this page there's already a side bar. For premium membership.. I possibly dislike it more than ads. However, I was browsing multiple Wheel of Time forum and theory sites a few years ago and I can't remember which one but I saw that one has some sort of Quote/Source finder helper for premium members. I forget how much the each person paid but those who like to theorize a lot could find it useful to have a similar thing. I'm sure there are other people who know more about it in here. I don't like premium membership stuff, but something like this could work. I remember that site had LOTS of quoting by posters, and something like that might increase that stuff here, as a lot of people (myself included) mostly vaguely mention citings without explicitly writing it out. That site also had citations as a requirement for an official theory (something similar to our espoused theory thing). I'm not sure if it would work here, or if you guys would want it, it could definitely change the atmosphere of the site, but thought I should mention it. The automatic book release order thing is really interesting, I am very intrigued. Also, the 17thshard logo is AWESOME, so it MUST be somehow incorporated into all the merchandise; like on the little tab on the plushes.

AGH! I curse that I live in the wrong state... I live in CA, but I can't make the LA or San Diego ones on the tour due to conflicts. CURSES!!

Hi, first off, I'd like to say that I'm of the opinion that the Shardplates and blades are of Honor, and possibly became corrupted by Odium. Evidence regarding this topic is so sparse and spread out in the book that it's difficult to have any substantiated claims. But here are some interesting quotes regarding the changing of eye color and their possible tie to the state of the Shardplates/blades This is very long and I wasn't sure if I should just create a new thread as a Theory but it IS a response to this thread so, move it if you deem it worthy. These all may contain spoilers so anyone who hasn't read the ENTIRE book, may want to look away. First we have (from my count and memory) 3 instances of links to the Radiants of old and their eye color (the prelude mentions Jezrien's eyes but doesn't mention their color). Also note the behavior of the Shardplates. 2 of the Radiants have unnaturally white eyes, seeming to 'leak Stormlight' and the irises were nearly white. The female Shardbearer simply has eyes that seemed to glow. With Sezth's eyes only turned his eyes from dark green to pale-almost glowing glowing-sapphire when he summoned his Shardblade, however for the Radiant's this unnatural glow or whiteness doesn't seem tied to a summoned Blade. The female Shardbearer summons her blade after that quote, and the Radiant in the Recreance vision has abandoned his Blade and Plate at the mention of his eyes. Although I'm not sure how Szeth's eyes factor into this (as his powers come from a different source from Kaladin's and presumably the Radiants, it seems apparent that the unnatural glowing and whiteness of the eyes come from usage of the Plates and Blades. Now here's a bit of a wild jump, but what if the length of usage leads to more unnatural/white eyes and permanence? If we assume Szeth has wielded his Blade for a shorter time than the Radiants in the vision did, or used it less this make sense. Also in the first vision, the male Radiant has more unnatural eyes than the female Radiant's and from his actions, he may be the female superior. Later in the scene, he is the one who questions Dalinar and invites him to the Urithiru to join and he tells the female Radiant to escort the family while he goes on ahead. Although whether he ordered her or simply suggested, he obviously takes charge of the situation and makes the decisions and the female Radiant complies without question or resistance. In the Recreance vision, though on definite, it can be assumed that those Radiants have used their Blades and Plates longer since it is after a Desolation, while in the first vision, it is implied to be the beginning of one (the wife mentions the attacks are frequent in Desolations perhaps but not in her life; and the description of the whiteness in the Recreance Radiant's eyes seem more unnatural than the other Radiant's. I know this is getting long but now onto why they were good but then were corrupted (by Odium?). Other than the obvious lack of glowing, and the glyphs on the Plates, I feel the Recreance vision is key. With "the glow from within the weapons had completely vanished" right before it says that some attacked the officer, right after it, it mentions the killing and the burning of eyes. Considering that timing (chronologically, first mention of the burning eyes) and order of descriptions, and knowing that Brandon rarely does things without reason, it seem to be that the glowing vanishing completely was the moment when the Blade was used to kill someone (unnatural use/not what they were meant for; meant to fight Voidbringers not other humans). Also, the nature of the Plates seem to change. In the first vision, the helms are very different, Dalinar not noticing when the female Radiant puts her's on and the disappearance of the male Radiant's helm (not took off, but it vanishes). This implies the helms can be summoned and banished at will from the Plates themselves (sort of like a convertable car I guess). In the Recreance vision, the Radiant physically takes his helm off and tosses it to the ground. On the other hand, his Plate seems to fall off his body simply by him flexing various muscles. Although how the Plates are taken off in Dalinar's time isn't shown, Page 371 shows how they are put on, which is meticulously piece by piece. Even if not explicit, the ease of handling Plate is definitely contrasted. This shows a possible decaying or slow corruption (not an immediate one, think WoT's madness growing in saidin). So there's my hypotheses on the eye color changes and the status of the Shardplates/blades. It makes a lot of assumption that Brandon says things for a reason and in a reasoned specific order; but considering other, answered questions, I feel it isn't too much of a jump to think that. I know things are kind of all over and there are probably typos but there are my two pieces. Thoughts? (side note: considering Surgebinding, it is possible that this eyes change deal stems from the usage of Surgbinding coupled with Shardbearing (remember Soulcasting (female Radiant) and Lashings are both considered Surgebinding). Szeth mention's his eyes changing as an effect of his unique Blade, but if he has not seen any other Surgebinder, he simply make that assumption. This could be confirmed with when/if Kaladin picks up a Shardblade/plate, since we have yet to see him touch one. Edit: side note is also confirmable with Shallan summoning her Blade, which we have yet to see either. Excitement for Book 2!

Ya.. I really should read through all of Brandonothology. I read a part of the cosmere part of it but it got me confused because of all the references to Mistborn stuff (which i haven't read in a while so kind of took me a while to remember) and Elantris stuff (which i haven't read yet)