hypatia

I remember one of the first things after OB was to print a map of Roshar and doing the same coloring like Dalinar - and it was as if I could see what Odium was/is planning. The Voidbringers in Marat, in Alethkar and on the way on the Purelake - Route - all of this was pointing to Jah Keved. Jah Keved with another Oathgate, but more dangerous - the Horneater Mountains with the Shardpool of Cultivation. And Odium wants to be free - one step, if not THE step to reach this goal is to splinter Cultivation. Hasn't Taravagian mentioned something like that? We were mostly on the Shattered Plain in Book 1 and 2, OB has brought Alethkar and Thaylenar, the next is possible Jah Keved. Venli is on the way to Marat IIRC and I hope she'll work from within with the Parshmen. Thanks to Dalinar and his Radiants Thaylenar still stands and so the way to act over the sea is furthermore open. Rock is now ...what? ....I hate the trick with unfinished sentences...but whatever it seems to be something with his status in the Horneater region. There's the feeling we will need him. And I will get perhaps another darling of mine - Redin. I've waited for him longer than for Toh.

@maxal Red herrings are always possible, but if you think of it even the decision to place Toh in Herdaz can make a sense. I don't think so much of the whole Rira, but the Oathgate in Kurth - the other strenge place in OB. Now this city is part of Rira, historically it was part of the kingdom of Rishir - like Herdaz. I hold my hopes high to see Toh again - all in all we need a way to connect the other part of Roshar with the main arc and this story left too many questions in the open. And the Oathgates - they really can't afford to loose much more of them. Sadly I don't believe this will be answered in the next book - the Oathgate in Vedenar is much more endangered with the infrastructure of Jah Keved shattered, Taravagian not interested in because of his deal with Odium and two frontlines of the Voidbringers nearly at the gates - perhaps Book 4 starts with the message of the fall of Vedenar.

On the plate - this is exactly the reason, why I think it'll become important. Even just to start talking with one another it would have been easy for Dalinar to give it back to the former owners. But there's the problem - who are the rightful owner - the Iriali or the Riran? Had Evi and Toh stolen the Plate or saved it from the Iriali? What is so important about it, that in this situation all the queen of Iri is thinking about is this Plate? For me it looks like even if Dalinar had given it back, they still would have sided with the Fused. What do we know about Rira? It's even possible Evi was the queen in exile or something and this Plate the symbol of her rightfulness. I was happy that it was mentioned that Toh is still alive and hope he will get a go. Sometimes I thought he don't act so much as a brother than a bodyguard. And what with a female as the heir of a Plate? All in all I see the decision to not give it back more as a plotwise decision of Brandon Sanderson.

If we believe Mraize, then this Skybreaker was the lover of her mother. Was it because he was a Skybreaker, did this just happen or was she unaware of his status? Was he tricking her mother to get into the family or was she part of the order? And really - even if a lover would tell me as a mother to kill my only daughter because of a Desolation when everyone thought it over - what kind of mother would be like "oh, ok I just kill her..."? Is it possible that she tried to hinder him to kill Shallan and the child was misinterpreting the situation? Yes, Nale is also a problem. His organisation is rather strict and all the reasons above are logic conclusions. Perhaps all of this had had nothing to do with Skybreaker and Radiant, but with a daughter catching her mother with a lover. Edit: Can't quiet remember - what happened with the lover? Did Lin kill him, was he wounded, was he able to heal himself?

@Isilel Yes, I was talking only for the case of Eshonai. Is it possible that because she really wasn't like Venli and the difference between Eshonai's core personality and the intension of the voidspren was too great the voidspren had no other chance than to forcefully imprison her inner self? After all with her there was nothing to enhance only to overpower.

We don't know. I would say "no" , because if so, there would have been more attempts to kill Shallan. We will need this from the PoV of the mother, but this is impossible. This isn't so much a truth of Shallan, it is a truth of her mother. Even if she had told someone, we couldn't be sure that this was the real reason. Perhaps there is a problem between Radiancy and motherhood, perhaps a Nahelbond won't allow the splitting of loyality. I really have a bad feeling.....

As I see it a pregnancy is the only reason for the need to skip one year, every other possibilities can really be sped up, but this needs 9 to 10 month. Without skipping this, the next book would have just a pregnant Shallan. But I don't feel this will end in all sunshine and roses - there is one great question left in the Shallan-plot - why had her MOTHER tried to kill her? At the moment I can't see a way to answer this question, because - except perhaps Pattern - no one can know the reason. With Shallan as a mother herself this can be shown. The little bit rushed marriage at the end of OB, all the "No mating" without proper papers, leads to a future child, but on the other side Patterns strong believe, that Shallan will kill him, doesn't make me feel this will have a sugersweet outcome.

There's also a difference between p.e. mateform and stormform - if you don't want it anymore, you simply change it. I don't know if this can be called "mind control" , but it's rather clear that Eshonai was regretting her decision to believe Venli, but she couldn't change with the next storms. Her free will was taken from her - not in the form itself, but in her ability to choose another form.

Gut, HP erreicht ja nicht ansatzweise diesen Umfang. Was man auch einrechnen muss - durch die Sprachstruktur hat normalerweise eine deutsche Übersetzung eine größere Wortanzahl oder es wird eine schlechte Umsetzung. Richtig störend bleibt das Warten auf die Übersetzung und die Zeitverschiebung. Insgesamt denke ich sogar, dass diese Aufteilung verhindert, dass die Bücher einen größeren Bekanntheitsgrad in Deutschland bekommen haben, da hier "Buch 1"in der Mitte eines Gesamtbuches endet und der Aufbau damit empfindlich gestört wirkt. Normalerweise lese ich beide Ausgaben - ich bin unfähig mich in Geduld zu üben, will aber andererseits die Übersetzungsqualität einschätzen können. Und so auch verhindern, dass eventuell die Bücher eingestellt werden, weil der Umsatz nicht stimmt. Ja, persönlich würde ich auch die englische Fassung lesen, aber ich verstehen, dass das überfordern kann und damit bleiben die Bücher weiterhin eher in einer Nische.

Hallo, ich hasse es ja, schlechte Nachrichten zu überbringen, aber Heyne lässt sich etwas Zeit - ich würde mal mit einem halben Jahr, wenn nicht länger rechnen. Für Teil 1 - der Rest dann wieder ein halbes Jahr später (Ich habe schon nachgefragt, ob das nicht schneller ginge, aber sie sagten nein). Es besteht eventuell die Chance, dass Piper übernimmt - Kinder des Nebels, Elantris erscheint jetzt neu aufgelegt dort.

To start with - I love OB, I really do, but... It's not so much loose ends, there is a discrepance between what each of the people inside the story know and what we, the readers, know. With the multible PoVs and the flashbacks this is the problem I was feeling almost uncomfortable while reading the book. Moash's assassination attempt is also my prime example, but not so much because of Kaladin's psychological state, more because of the person/the group, who was behind this plan - the Diagram. Each of the persons knows something of interest for the others, but doesn't tell about it. At the end I was near a blood fall. when Dalinar further thought about Taravangian - not only because Szeth didn't talk about anything, it could have also be handled with Kaladin's story. Danlan - what's with her? Really, I want to imprison everyone of them together in one room and only let them out when they really start to work together.

RiP Elhokar, King of Alethkar, who never had a chance. Now you are dead and only now I start to understand you - born as an artist, but forced to act as a leader. Did you ever asked your father, if you could start learning to draw? I bet his answer wasn't a nice one. You were like Kaladin, but a Kaladin who were forbidden to protect, to lead. The one thing, that was always true with your destiny - you were an actor, you tried to act like an heir and a king. No, this isn't correct - you tried to be your father. But rest asure - I strongly believe, you would have been a great king of your own over time, with your ability to see and sometime bring forth the best in other people. One question - what was wrong? Why did you wait so long with your spren to bond? Was it a problem with you or with your spren?

I would like to connect this thread with the one discussing the origines of the lighteyes. We have WoB, that part of the Lighteyes are natural mutation, but another part really has one or perhaps more Radiants in their family line. This is perhaps the reason, why the Kholinfamily shows this affinity to attract spren - they are perhaps the descendants of the Radiants. One of the points with reviving the dead spren is , that it would be possible with the original Radiant - I think one of his descendants can be second best. Theme-change: After OB a picture started to manifest in my head - an eye-connection - a look in the physical and the cognitive realm at the same time after the recreance: With breaking the Nahelbond there were two results - the human bondmate ended up with the permanent lighteye-ness, whereas in the cognitive realm their spren ended up with "dead eyes". Whatever was ripped out of the spren it seems to show in the eyes of both participiants. IIRC we also don't have a clue, wether older Radiants were able to inherit the eyecolor to their children ( I would like to ask the author). If this just started after the recreance, this could be the result of the part that was ripped of the spren. Now - even with the Arcanum I'm seemingly unable to find WoBs - but I remember something like " to revive a dead spren you have to give something back..." This sounds like the one reviving a shardblade have to give back the eyecolor/the eyes or something else in this line of thoughts.

Don't know, but this whole scene with Moash killing Elhokar had reminded me nearly forcefully on the Tanalan flashback. A father killed violently right before the eyes of his son and his shardblade taken away. I think it will be Gavilor's part with Moash - perhaps to try to kill him, perhaps to stop the circe of vengeance. I would like to see something in this direction, because this would also connect with Dalinar's arc. And Gavinor has become a version of Moash himself, traumatisiced by the death of his father.

I would prefere the variant with Gavilar trusting her, but... This leads to the question about Asuedan original family. To trust her I have the feeling there must be more than "Oh, a nice and clever girl, perhaps she'll think it o.k. to start chaos on Roshar...". But who has arranged this marriage? Navani? Gavilar? Gavilar wanted Jasnah to marry Amaram - perhaps Asuedan was similiar, a daughter of a fellow Son of Honor? Restares? At the moment he's mostly just a name, this could be a way to involve him in the actual story. There is also the unsolved problem with the shardplate of Elhokar and the question who was responsible. Dalinar has made the deal to look after this, but it was forgotten about other problems. Cui bono? The death of Elhokar should strengethen the position of his designeted ruler in absentia and the mother of the future king - Gavinor - growing up under the influence of Asuedan. All in all - the more I think of that the more I like the idea of Asuedan being a part of this affair.

I let my thoghts fly: Roshone was a "distant cousin" of Amaram, a member of the Sons of Honor. He is hinted to had done something in the interests of the crown, AKA Gavilar, also Sons of Honor. Perhaps you need silver for kickstarting a Desolation? Now Asuedan - nonwithstanding my problem with her age about 8 years ago - what was this in OB? Neither Navani - Gavilar's wife- nor Elhokar - his son - shows an indication to have known about this plan, but there was his daughter-in-law, who seems to have just stumbled over this secret and is furthermore able to use Gavilar's work to take a step the orginator wasn't willing to do. I was a little bit astounded how a second row Kholin had gotten all this knowledge.

I also thought of the possibility that the one Elhokar trusted wasn't Roshone himself, but I never thought of Asuedan. Mostly because this affaire happened about 8 years ago - leaving Elhokar what? - 19? - and Moash about 12 years old. I was really hoping someone would ask Elhokar about his PoV - he is accused but no one told him what really was the reason for the attempt to kill him in WoR. All in all we don't know exactly what had happened, we only got Moash's view and some cryptic sentences from Dalinar: There were rumors. Roshone wasn't in this behalf acting for the interests of the crown but for his own ones. Or perhaps for his liege - Sadeas? Sadeas was also the reason why Gavilar punished Roshone but not as severly as Dalinar wanted. All of this leads to questions: What were the "interests of the crown" - at this time Gavilar - with this affair? Was it for silver or something more? Who was involved? We have Roshone and Elhokar, but there is also Sadeas and Gavilar hinted at. What happened with the shops after the death of the grandparents? And I think more of Roshone's. In OB we get Moash's PoV - and there was something that changes his story a little bit - he was at this time on a caravan with an uncle of his. Granted - it isn't necessarily a blood relative of his grandparents but Moash had had more relatives than only his grandparents - as he had told Kaladin to involve him in the assassination. I always thought it odd, that two elderly shop-owners would allow their only heir to leave their buisiness, now with an uncle - and perhaps more - we get the possibility of other family members. My problem is I can't judge Elhokar without knowing the background. I don't want to excuse him, but to wait for the whole story.

@MPHRD After all they are Cognitive Shadows, I never thought them able or in need of sleeping or fainting. On one side this would add to their insanity, but what troubles me more are the implications of why this is happening now. And I would realky like to know if every Herald had felt this "ripping" and had fainted. Personally I wouldn't bet that the Oathpact is further in place after the first Herald had died.

I don't think Kaladin fights because of the system or Lighteyes - if you look he defends people who don't deserve to die. He sees the individual behind the color of their eyes, be it human or listeners. That's one point I can't stand with Moash - his thinking in categories. He was hurt as a child, coming back with his uncle and finding his grandparents dead, but he projects this on every lighteye. The same in OB - this one episode with the brightlord and his minions and for him every human is corrupt.

Whereas I think that the aspects of being a CS is one reason for the madness I believe there are more causes - They were broken even before they broke the Oathpact - As in the prelude and again now with Shalash most of the Heralds felt guilty - The time Taln had lasted - I don't think the others had expected him lasting THAT long, longer than any of them. And with each passing year the guilt was getting worse until perhaps the feeling of self-hatred and effecting the look on their own ideals. - Not sure but it is possible that the othe Heralds felt the pain of Taln the whole time along over their bond.

I remember asking myself in WoK and WoR if Moash really is similiar to Kaladin or if it's only Kaladin wanting this to be. Without Kaladin telling this time and time again I don't think I would have seen it this way. Now after OB there's the feeling Kaladin was so fixated on Moash, because he was someone he thought he doesn't need to protect. But after reading Moash's PoV I think this is only partially right - Moash hadn't the need of Protection, but of Leading. For the salute - after realising his want for vengeance there was a "little" problem called Kaladin. To get his revenge Moash had to find a way to eliminate Kaladin, a Radiant he can't overpower in a normal fight. However this comes to be - basically we see a similar tactic as Kaladin had used against the Parshendi with the carapace.

The old Kelsier would join them and be in charge within a year? So they are conmen and thieves?

What was new in his chapters? His name is an old singer-name and it was his grandfather who had him named. His grandparents weren't his only relatives, he was with his uncle away when the Roshone-Affair appeared. Don't know what to do with this informations, but they are interesting. For his further way - yes, I see him as the future champion of Odium and as some sort of Anti-Herald. But there are two tiny points: He neither had killed a Bridge Four member nor Gavinor. There has still his tattoo on his back and I don't think Odium knows of this/is interested in. Whereas I'm convinced he will be the main villain in the next few book, I believe he will get his redemption arc in the end. Looking at Dalinar - he is able to conquer Odium because he knows in a sense his dark side, because he is the "friend" of the Thrill. With Vyre it looks like Odium is using a different technique - going after the Oathpact, replacing -at the moment - one of the Heralds with his minion. I would really like to see this plan go horrible wrong - giving Vyre the place of Jezrien can give Moash the possibility to take his place in Damnation in order to redeem himself. I want him to suffer but only if it means to help against Odium.

This is possible, but only if Odium see something in this for his greater goal - as in trying to really crack Kaladin. In the moment I think more about Vyre (I can't think of him as Moash anymore) and the starting plot about the Heralds. Vyre has joined the Fused - whatever they are ordered, he will be in the team. Personally I think it will go against Cultivation, because Odium is trapped on Roshar and after the Splintering of Honor she is the one holding his prison.

The next problem as I see this will be probably Jah Keved. After a civil war and the Highprinces dead, what will happen when first the assassin is in allign with the Radiants and the new King is the one who has sent him? Taravangian - after the more or less bonding to Odium and with his plans shattered with saving the world - I don't think he has any interest left with Jah Keved. But this region is of interest for Odium - not only is the Oathgate near of two contingents of Voidbinders, there also is the part of Roshar where the only other Shard left there is residing - the Perpendicularity of Cultivation. In Shadesmare this point is already beleagered and to get access to the Horneater Mountains could be a way to get rid of his prison. Dalinar really has to look after his PR because this would be a very high price.