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Ok, I see where you are coming from now; thats a valid point from a rosharan/human POV. Assuming those Khris entries were from the OB timeline, Voidbringing is active again and has a full army of people who have never forgotten any of their tricks from past desolation, making them arguably the most well and widely understood of them (within it's own users anyway). And I had a blindspot for the Radiants because it's what we know the most about, but arguably it's the smallest and least understood of the three. I personally think they will have to rediscover their Radiant abilities before they will have the nessesary powers and perspective to understand the Fabrial tech they've been trying to rediscover. Not necessarily, Surges are something that both Surgebinding and Voidbinding seem to have (if not exactly identical ones), but as I understand it voidbinding only arose as a response to the Heralds and/or Radiants that had Honor's Surges (also redis implied to indicate Copied Magic), whereas the Ashyn magic would have predated a bunch of that. Combine that with the fact that "10" is supposed to be the magic number for the whole system, and not just Roshar itself, there'd be some symmetry to Roshar=Surgebinding, Braize=Voidbinging, and Ashyn=??? Separately, Id make an argument for B on the grounds that we have a organized/mortal used magic system for the other two shards but not Cultivation, and the Horneaters have developed living right on top of her Perpendicularity and having their own close relationships with Spren ("relationships" of all kinds if being Spren-blooded is a thing...).

Esoteric just means "adj. intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest." It doesnt have to mean that it is not known or understood at all, just that it is a very rare/obscure specialty that is not widely known (like the . Fabrials are only truly understood by a relatively small community of scholars on Roshar as present who are still figuring out the basics (as compared to the Heralds or to Radiants of previous desolation cycles), so I would think that would qualify (independent of their individual levels of understanding). In the real world things often become esoteric knowledge once they become so obsolete that there are relatively few people left with the knowledge or training, aka the Lost Arts. Bladesmithing is a good example, the intricacies of that body of knowledge are being lost more and more as swordplay itself is being left behind. We used to be good at them because people would still literally live or die by their quality. Fabrials seem like they are in the same boat, a lost art that they are only starting to re-discover.

D'oh! Now Im back on the right page. Ok, one last nitpicky question @Calderis: that part sounds to me like it was referring to when she first left, as opposed to when she returned; was there a storm present when she first left Roshar/PR that he might have been referring to instead? It's been too long since I read WoR that I dont remember all the happenstance.

Right, but what has me confused is that the very same part of the WOB that I'd seen people point to as evidence that Jasnah's Order/surge is creating Mini-perpendicularities, but @Calderis used it as evidence that Jasnah had used Honor's Perpendicularity, which sounds off to me in a couple ways

Given that Voidbinding and Surgebinding mirror each other so much but are still considered distinct (by both Khriss and Brandon), I dont think that whatever the third is would have to actually appear or function in ways all that dissimilar; Fabrials could fall into that, especially if they are indeed capable of effects that the Radiant orders cannot mimic with their own Surges.

This came up in another thread, and I wanted to see what peoples thoughts were but didnt want to derail that thread. It was mentioned that Syl dislikes Fabrials because she hates that the spren inside have been trapped. But, unless I missed something, I don think that they have to be innately traps like that, and more than courtship and diplomacy have to be acts of aggression or War. I mean, just because Rosharan Fabrials are currently the equivalent of Caveman Courtship (ie. "Hit in head with Club. Drag back to cave. Ugg.") doesnt mean it's not possible to accomplish it with mutual respect, right? Strikes me as a strong possibility that the really advanced Fabrial tech they've lost would have involved a much more diplomatic relationship with the Spren. Granted I doubt that would ever work with an Unmade or any similarly hostile Spren, but for the majority of them you could probably turn the Bait part of the process into an Offer.

OK, so Soulbearers will store the output, but Hemalurgy steals the whole machine. I can go with that, it follows the patterns with spikes and the other metalic arts.

Ah, ok, I gotcha. I see where I was making an assumption with the spren's statements. That WOB about Jasnah though, that's the same one Ive seen specifically used as evidence that Perpendicularities are not the sole purview of a Shardic Perpendicularity but rather a statement that lesser ones, "mini-perpendicularities", can be created by lesser powers (Elsecalling and the Surge of Transportation in Jasnah's case)?

Dude, I LIKE that.

Can you elaborate on that a little, Soulbearers are something I struggle to wrap my head aournd. Aside from presumably being less permanent how is that different from Hemalurgy, which in the case of a Radiant would be moving the actual Nahel Bond?

Question #2 in the OP was "What Happened to Honor and Ruin's Perpendicularities?" so I answered that. Im not making any statements about when or how it got there, but What did I miss?

Honor's Perpendicularity still exists and is in the Highstorm, which is the How and Why of the Storm being able to provide Investiture. This is explored quite a bit in OB.

Im still hoping for prominent new hexadiety Shards to be revealed and solidify the various sides in the final conflict. I tend to think Odium is the red-herring Baddy and going to be taken out part-way through, as an entry to the next power plateau when the Shards start to take center stage. I'd actually be interested to see Autonomy be BOTH the Big Bad and the 11th hour savior. Hell, I'd like to see all our cosmere heroes unite to become the next generation of Shard-bearers

@DracostarA I could see somebody describing Fabrials as "a set of Abilities" from the perspective that Fabrials are not generic devices (as compared to a Magic Wand sort), rather they each perform a single, specific function. The other possibilities I could see are A)Something the Shin are doing that Kriss classifies as distinct, B)Something the Horneaters (or other Spren-blooded) are doing that Kriss classifies as distinct, C) Something the Singers are doing that Kriss classifies as distinct, D)The Heralds/Honorblades, which arguably are different (and "esoteric" in the literal Very Few Know Anything about it) than Radiant Surgebinders, or E)The Dawnshards F) Kriss said it's a magic from the Rosharan System, not Roshar, so give me Ashyn or Braize Magic Please?? (my favorite possibility, if you couldnt tell :-P)

Granted. You are a full Feruchemist. On Scadrial. Era 1. The Inquisitors have found you, and they have a bag of spikes... I wish for the abilities of the Fifth Heightening, without any need for actual breaths.

Then I guess my answer is that I dont think so, at least not outside what I would call a Rube Goldberg approach. The whole point of using an Ettmetal device instead of just a multi-power Medallion is that it allows the metallic arts effects to occur entirely independent of a person, they do not "project" powers into individuals. The tin cant really contribute functionally; you could make an Ettmetal sensor, but the device would not be able to interpret that sensory data any more than a camera can know what it is looking at (which even modern computer vision systems struggle with, trust me), so you'd have to rig it up to a bell or something. Or you could make some Unsealed/Unkeyed medallions that grants Iron/Steel-sight and/or F-Tin to the individual, no Ettmetal required. EDIT: Unless by "Extra Level of Intent" you actually mean using Ettmetal to more or less Awaken the device, make it actually Aware? There is precedent in the Metallic Arts in the form of the Kandra and Koloss that are granted Sentience, but it would be the first instance of Ettmetal being used in conjunction with Hemalurgy, so it's hard to say how that might work. All I can say for sure is that Ettmetal Spikes should be impossible for the same explosive reason that says you cannot ingest enough to Burn for Allomancy.

Granted, you can read the "mind" of any single cell organism. Only one at a time, but any of them, and they dont really think much more than "Hot! Cold! Hungry! Here..." I wish for the ability to see Spren like a Horneater.

If that's the case you just need a primer cube with Iron or Steel that is as small as physically possible. The issue with the steel/Iron Sight is that a Primer cube has no way to interpret that input and do anything to indicate what it is detecting. But if you build a device that is set up to pull tiny amounts on nearby metal objects, small and balanced so that it is the thing that will move far more than the detected object, then it would work fine so long as it's not surrounded by too many different metal signals that counteract each other. It's basically an allomantic Compass at that point, one that points to any metal rather than just the planetary pole.

Huh. So by that, while he had been there before, he did come (or come back) to Roshar at the same time as the Humans, and by that point he was able to get more followers among the Humans than the Singers, but the actual circumstances and/or motivation around the How and Why of the Human exodus from Ashyn are still fuzzy.

Was this not directly revealed in OB? I thought that was the whole shtick, that the Humans where Odium's original Voidbringers.

On the Fused, I dont think we can make any strong guesses about Odium's standard MO for attaching another Shard, we've only seen the distant aftermath on Sel, we dont know who is attacking Scadrial, and on Roshar our assumptions are being actively subverted in the story (#SoylentVoidbringers). It would not be out of character for him to have been willing to Invest in forces with the intent of eventually just destroying them all himself and reclaiming his power. On the Dawnshards, help me out real quick timeline-wise, Do we know which era they were active in? I see Roshar's history as having 6 era's: Pre-Shattering, Adonalsium times Honor and Cultivation Early Days, Listener Times Arrival of Humans with Odium Switching of Fodder Sides (Fused from Listeners, Heralds from Humans). Oathpact Times, Early Desolations Emergence of Knights Radiant, Late Desolations Post- Recreance

That's not really the same thing though, to my mind, as saying that the Oathpack has "no real effect on Odium." By all indications the explicit purpose of the Oathpact was to bind Odium to the system, and that was accomplished via the Heralds. We even have WOB that the Oathpack was indeed part of what is trapping him, though not the direct cause (which I think is referring to how trapping his forces and investiture is what is in turn trapping him, as opposed to it being a more literal prison). As to the Endowment comparison, she was only Invested in the people themselves in the form of Breathes, rather that the whole ecosystem or a whole race of Living Investiture in the form of Voidspren, which I think is key. Though I would also be perfectly willing to accept that Endowment specifically maintains less connection to her granted Investiture because its intended as a more literal Gift, makign it traite unique to that Intent similar to how Autonomy seems to play by different rules on the topic of Hosts.

Honestly I tend to think that Odium is going to get away one way or the other, so even if they try to get the Oathpact back I dont think it would work. But I dont think the actual characters would do it that way, I think they are going to eventually try something with more direct involvement of Cultivation, rather than the mroe purely Honor Solution that way the Oathpact; I think Cultivation will help the Oathpact and the Radiants Evolve. Side question, but are we sure that #1 is true? I thought that one directly caused the other, that having his huge, heavily Invested armies trapped in the system is itself what was Trapping him, because in many ways he is that Investiture. EDIT: I see what you are saying. It can be two series in the sense that the first is a definitive arc that is it's own story and the next continues on where that one left of with our same cast, etc. like a Season 2 continuation. OR, it could be a much harder break that all but starts from scratch on Roshar with whatever pieces are left after the dust settles, new Story of new Heroes more like the Scadrial Era's (narratively if not the time jumps).

To the OP: I would tend to think the vast majority of broken people arent aware of it, as a general statement. Granted I think a lot of the purpose (both Doyistic and Watsonian) of the Ideals it to guide the Radiant toward recognizing and reconciling that reality, but I think in most cases the process will have started long before they actually get to that level of introspection. But consider the reeeeaally broken people, the classically Mad are often unable to recognize the fact of their own madness, almost by definition (Im looking at you Ishar...).

Oh, they definitely dont equate to "Good". If nothing else that would be waaay too straight-forward for a Sanderson novel. It's just that Id always taken "Journey Before Destination" at it's philosophic level being a statement of relative importance. But your argument that it could be interpreted as a simple statement of the proper order of execution, that you need to make sure each step is a step toward your Destination if you are ever to achieve it, makes sense from the machavelian POV. Not something Id naturally gravitate to, but I can see the interpretation.