Quantus

Plate does require external Investiture to function, notably unlike Shardblades. If the plate substance is formed by lesser spren but it is being constantly flooded by the Investiture of the Radiant for it's actual fuel, might that explain the Identity effect being in place? For what it's worth, I have a lot less confidence that what we know about these sorts of quantitative comparisons, ever since we learned Elsecalling is literally creating mini-Perpendicularities, which prior to that would have required a Shard's level of Investiture. In light of that Im willing (perhaps too willing) to give Surges and Radiants more of a pass under the umbrella statement that Roshar is overall on the high-power end of the bell-curve. Related Question: Do we know if Plate has always had gem sockets? We know that it was years and years before they figured out that adding a gem to a blade allows dismissal, I wonder if they had to similarly hack a gem power-source into the plate to get it functioning post-Recreance.

That's fair I suppose. In the case of the Odiumblade Vs Honorblade, I personally think there's a good equivalency there: it's a non-living magical blade built to grant Power to a mortal. Granted it does not appear to grant Surges in any particular way. Id personally restrict the Shardblade equivalent to something that was also made of spren, but then I personally dont really like calling Nightblood a shardblade, so I certainly have odd personal preferences.

Special magic blade made by Odium. I dunno, seems like a reasonable name to me.

Best theory Ive seen is based on the WOB about how Shards are infinite but the Human Minds are finite and can only hold/channel a finite amount of it. In realmic terms that sounds like a single Cognitive entity as a Vessel can only channel a piece of the entire infinite Spiritual sum of the shard. We also know that the Shards have connections and expressions of their Intent everywhere, it's just that they are typically not cognitively aware of other places. This leads to the idea that Autonomy is distributing that Cognitive Load to their different Avatars, so that Shard is being expressed through multiple finite Cognitive entities rather than the typical Single Vessel. The thing I dont know is whether this would mean that the Avatars are collectively accessing more total Autonomy Investiture than a single shard would; in other words, Im' curious if two Autonomy Avatars were to team up and take on Scadrial, would they be less powerful than Harmony (not full Vessels), Equal (two Mind's worth of Channelling), or Stronger (Two minds worth of Shard channeling but without the opposing halves that Harmony balances).

Debatable. Having held a Shard, he'd likely know enough choose to avoid that second Spike, even assuming he trusts Harmony not to abuse the control it would grant.

Ah, cool. I very strongly doubt htey are literally from outside the Cosmere cluster, simply because Brandon has said that for storytelling purposes he plans to keep it entirely contained. That being said, they could be aliens from some hidden corner of it and accomplish the same storytelling role.

Just to be clear, are you talking about the Dysian Amians (the Hordling hive beings) or the Saih Aimians, the immortal semi-shapeshifters like Axies? Per WOB they are not related to each other beyond the whole cohabitation on Aimia thing.

I could buy that. The symmetry-lover in me would then immediately jump to the conclusion that they are actually native to Braize (perhaps the original inhabitants displaced by Odium being bound there?). Personally I dont think the Dysians are a race native to the Physical Realm at all, I think they are a type of spren that possesses a large group of specially bred but otherwise mundane cremlings. They'd be sort of a combination between the Fused and Nergaoul, in that they are a sentient possessing spirit from/In the Cognitive Realm but able to bond a large group simultaneously like Neragaoul.

I could be very mistaken but I thought the Violet blood indicated one of the crustacean races and that they'd mentioned in the vision flashbacks that they used some of them as domesticated beasts in war.

Im not sure I understand the question? I dont think they would need to be visible anywhere prior to the summoning and/or dismissal, any more than a Creation-spren are nessesarily visible before Shallan or whomever does something to pull them from the CR. That being said, I couldnt say if they were local (in which case somebody like Rock might have seen them coming or going) or if they are called from the CR like a Shardblade, in which case I think they just "Drop" on the CR side and appear in the place and form they were called to.

Regarding those brief glimpses with Shallan and Jasnah, I agree that was plate but just figured the different Orders would have different display patterns when they summon or dismiss their plate. As far as whether it's the same spren or new 'local' spren each time, I lean toward the former but functionally I dont know how much difference it would make. If they are the same spren, they could be called from anywhere in the cognitive realm just like a Deadeye can be summoned near-instantly regardless of proximity to the relative location of the bonded summoner. That's fair. I think the spren-squire model has the potential to reconcile some of that, but it would getting even further into speculation territory, so these are more just possibilities that could prove true rather than any held belief. The difference between lesser and sapient Spren is a quantitative one, with the intelligent spren (and more intelligent species in general) have quite a bit more Investiture than the rest. Perhaps their Identity is still present but simple downed out by the much 'stronger/louder Identity and Investiture of the Radiant. I dont see as much need for the lesser spren Bond to anything close to the Nahel bond as you do, on the logic that it is by a wide margin the deepest Bond of those we've seen with spren, but others like the gemheart Bond have equally dramatic effects. Regardless of that aspect though, if the lesser spren are utilizing a Bond that is similar in aspect to the Squire's Bond, then I think it would be piggy-backing the Nahel Bond more than Rivaling/Matching it. It would be the same way Squires get full Surge use without having their own souls Bonded, and as far as I can tell they have no direct need to maintain Ideals beyond staying in good standing with the Radiant and their Spren. The distance limitation makes me think it's a Cognitive Bond rather than a Spiritual one (nahel bond) or a Physical one (Gemheart Form Bond), so it would likely behave it a lot of distinct ways. Another distinction that might be playing a role with the Plate is that unlike a Blade, the plate actually uses Fuel and needs to be constantly supplied with stormlight. Perhaps the reason a Radiant's own Plate doesnt block their own surges is about the Identity suffused in the Stormlight being fed to fuel the Plate, rather than the Identity of whatever the plate is made of (spren or otherwise). I think this leads to a test Question: Can a Squire's Surges penetrate their own Radiant's Plate? We'll have to wait and see for that datapoint, but both Shallan and Kaladin are close. Spit-balling alternatives: Maybe it's a sort of Soulcasting effect, using the lesser spren somehow in the process but using the Beads of local matter? This has some doylistic merit in light of the WOB that he'd originally intended all orders to be able to Soulcast their own essence, but felt it made the orders less distinct. However, if that is the case I will fully expect there to be noticeable losses of local air or stone or something any time it's summoned, just like there is displacement effects when you Soulcast. Another alternative is that it's somehow more akin to a Singer Form, with the Lesser Spren in some sort of bond (less deep than the full Nahel Bond) as a template for creating the Plate in the physical realm? Not sure what would be playing the role of realmic anchor the way the Gemheart seems to, unless the Invested Radiant themselves is filling that role (being the only thing in the equation with a native Physical Realm presence).

This is also evident with Shallan. She was able to access Shadesmar that first time by speaking a Truth and riding the boost of power, but Pattern later told her that if she wanted to do it again she'd have to progress and speak more Truths. I think each time a radiant swears a new Ideal and increases their Bond, there is a surge of power that is flavored by the actual Surges of their Order. So Bondsmiths and Windrunners get surges of raw Power because of the nature of their Surge(s), which Represent Connections themselves and are very close to Honor himself, whereas Lightweavers (and Id guess Elscallers and Truthwatchers) get a boost in Realmic Access because of their Transformation/Transportation capabilities. Random fun fact: we know of milestone events (surges, blades, squires, plate, etc) at each Ideal. But the only thing we know about the 5th is that the Spren say they have ways of severing the Bond until the 5th, but after that they cannot. This implies to me that the Bond somehow becomes "complete" at that point and if nothing else has likely reached maximum efficiency. I know this is a common complaint, but I personally dont see it as being anything more than circumstantial. The lesser spren are seen as animals by the sapient spren. Syl even mentions that her aunt (a Honorspren, no less) likes to hunt some kinds. That being the case, Plate could very easily be the spren-cultural equivalent of wearing Leather. Nobody would blink at a leather jacket, but you have a Human leather jacket and suddenly your are the plot of an Anthony Hopkins movie. I agree about there needing to be a Bond involved, but I could see it as being the spren equivalent of Squires. So Kaladin can create semi-temporary Bonds to other humans (Squires) at the 3rd, and if Im right Syl will be able to bond her Lesser spren in a similar fashion once they reach the 4th to facilitate the Plate.

When talking about how "Fundamental" a force/surge is in the cosmere, I think it's important to remember that reality is going to be fundamentally different on different planets, to some extent. "Reality" in the Cosmere is more or less described as The Physical Realm being expressed/emitted by the Spiritual Realm through the filter of the Cognitive Realm. This is true for everything that exists in all three realms, from people to Planets. And each planet has it's own region of the Cognitive Realm, with it's own expressions and rules, such as the Rosharan land inversion vs Scadrian Mists, and who knows what Nalthis looks like. These regions connect, but they do appear and function differently, and if that CR region is the lens by which the local reality itself is being created and maintained, those differences are going to have to cause similar variance in the reality they are translating. And it would logically make sense that those differences are going to shine though more dramatically int he instance of how Investiture is direct accessed and manipulated than it might for more basic and standardized things like what Carbon looks like. That's not to say there arent always going to be some common ground, though I do see those most often occurring around Spiritual Realm effects (Spriritweb stuff, concepts of Connection and Identity, etc). However, even with the background mechanisms are the same, the access and expressions will be different; for example, in Scadrian Feruchemy it takes separate metals to manipulate natural age (atium) vs spiriweb healing (gold) but they are the same Surge on Roshar (Progression).

To be clear, the line Im trying to draw is the line between creatures of made of Pure Investiture like a Spren, Seon, or perhaps a Cognitive Shadow like the fused, which as I understand it are ineligible to become actual Vessels (as opposed to becoming just a more powerful spren, still just an example of sentient Investiture. Functionally Fused are probably the closest example, though Im not saying that the Dysian Amian spirit was ever a Human, Singer, or any other race native to the Physical Realm.

That's my understanding as well, they are more like constellations in the sky: they have shape and definition, but in reality they are just (arbitrary) divisions of the whole with no actual gaps, so all stars by definition fall into one of them. Im not saying the 10 surges are themselves arbitrary since they are a natural division rather than a cultural one.

By Request, here is my most recent Cosmere Chemtrail:

If we are talking about a mistborn trying to stop a Spiking with a last-minute Hail Mary flare, I think Id go for a Steel-push on the logic that the pre-charged spike is almost certainly unInvested. Unless they are coming at you with a godmetal spike that is. If they are still far enough away you might use Bendalloy to doge and escape. If you are twinborn and might be able to tap/flair enough Gold to prevent the spike from actually drawing blood and itself push the spike back out (we saw flairing gold ejects bullets, yes?), or tap/flair F-Steel and superspeed Flash your way out of it.

In terms of Power Set I think almost any Lanterns would most closely resemble a Lightweaver*, with the solid illusions taking the place of the Energy Constucts and light-based energy beams being entirely possible. *Fun note, in the Universe that came before the current DC one, Lanterns existed but were called "Lightsmiths"

One analogy is that they can get bored always playing with the Cheat Codes on? When reality itself jumps to accomplish your whims the moment they manifest, it's hard to get a real sense of accomplishment. The other thing is that, pressures of Intent aside, it doesnt seem like Ascension actually Changes them all that much. Expands the crap out of them sure, and inevitably changes their perspectives on a bunch of things, but their core personalities, their priorities and attachments, etc. dont seem to go away (Im basing a lot of this on my observations of Era2 Sazed, fwiw). If they cared about People (or Cultures, or Art, or Science) before, I think they would still feel those same things, unless and until the Intent wore them away (as with Ati). Realmically, I think this might even be mechanically necessary. When a person Ascends, their entire spiritweb is flooded and expanded (so much that it permanently stretches), so that should include all their Connections to people and things (ie those Connections subject to Feruchemy or Hemalurgy). So if as a mortal they were, say, very patriotic (strong Homeland Connection), or Married (strong Personal Connection) that Connection would theoretically be magnified, not reduced or overshadowed.

Hehe, probably easier to talk about which ones Wouldnt qualify. Ironically, I think the villain of Mistborn Era 2, Miles Hundred-lives, would be a example of powers that are very much Not about Destruction. As a Gold Twinborn, his two powers are personal healing and visions of his own alternate pasts. Even though he was personally a very destructive force, his powers were either neutral or actively restorative.

Well we know they are at least "kind of" Cultivation's Agents. Personally, this WOB (below) makes me strongly suspect that they are not actually physical Beings in the traditional sense. We know from several WOB's that they are a Hive, that "the individual's consciousness is an interesting thing" and that you could spike a Hordeling (either in or out). but it would loose contact with the Hive rather than directly affect it. And the way he keeps wanting to qualify the WOB below makes me think the Dysian Amians are not in fact a physical Realm Race at all, rather they are a Spren race that is bonding with and controlling a large population of animals, more or less the mechanism we saw with Nergaoul in OB, where he "bonded" to the entirely army at once (causing their Shadesmar Flames to turn Red). The reason he keeps trying to qualify it would be because he's already said that spren cant Hold a shard the same way a Vessel can (because they are already Pure Investiture) but doesnt want to reveal that the Dysians are actually Spren (or cognitive Shadows, more or less the same thing). "Spren" are the Asterisk on the rule he is trying to avoid spoiling.

You mean with powers that are specifically Destruction oriented, not just being able to use it destructively (like super strength or something)? Offhand: Any Dustbringer, including Chanarach Any Skybreaker, including Nale Most Epics (individually debatable, but Spoilers...) Any Elantrian Every Dakhor Monk Nighblood ("Destroy Evil")

That's entirely fair, though depending on how it went down he might not have needed to do anything himself, this might have been his wife backing him into a corner. One scenario is that he was operating under a Loophole in the agreement with his counterparts to never interfere with another shard by excluding his own wife from that, and as soon as Tsa ascended he found himself in violation of that agreement because his Investiture was massively intermingled with that of a vessel that is not his spouse, breaking the agreement without his him actually being complicit. But there's a line from the story that makes me doubt he was that involved: Tsa's argument that she'd not violated the bargain was that Honor/Nomon invited her to partake of the celestial experiences even though she'd promised not to. That makes me suspect he's less than innocent. He didnt think he had broken anything, but we know other's of that group disagree with his interpretation. Id argue that is the definition of a rationalization in this sort of context. Admittedly it's hard to argue either way though, I think it will come down to some Spirit vs Letter distinction, without knowing the Wording or the Motivations at the time. Consider one possible but entirely made-up example scenario: The motivation behind the agreement was to keep the Shards Invested on separate worlds to prevent it from ever reintegrating back into some Adonalsium equivalent. Tanavast believed it was impossible in his and Cultivation's case: because they are already intimately Connected by Love and Marriage, their Investitures intermingled as soon as they Ascended. Thus in Tanavast's mind, the agreement as to not to intermingle Investitures any more than it was already. Thus in his mind, the intermingling between Himself and his Wife was a preexisting condition and was never part of the deal. But the moment Cultivation's Investiture changes hands, that would suddenly no longer hold true. In this interpretation the "child" is more likely either a spren, or something more "crafted" the Temp-Cultivation rather than conceived by the two of them. Nice! This one I did not know about. That's a strong counter-argument right there. On the one hand I could see arguing that Honor might hold himself to a higher standard than some of the rest. On the Other hand he's the most likely to get stuck at the specific distinction between an Understanding and an Oath, though he would have been quite new to the power at the time. Perhaps he was a bit of a noble oaf and took the other's statements at Face value, and either because of the Honor Intent or in spite of it (since he was still inexperienced) he made the incorrect Assumption that the other's apparent agreement with the idea was as good as an actual Oath. On #1: that is true, and if it had been told by anyone other than Hoid I would say it's a Blue Curtains scenario. But Hoid has a history of telling stories that thematically predict major twists. The Islanders in the Wandersail story discovered they'd been doing all kinds of horrible things int eh name of an emperor that was long dead, mirroring the Rosharans that were still fighting and dying in the name of a dead god. The girl under the wall found out that she was one of the monsters, just like the humans discovered they were the real Voidbringers. The Hoid's story of Fleet to Kaladin foreshadowed his eventual loss of boots to Shallan (not really, I just dont have a good interpretation for that one). Another possibility is that it's both, and rather than any of my UnMade/Nohodon theories for the fate of the Shardically Bastard bloodline it is the literal source of the Blue skinned Natans. On #2, I have several thoughts, tell me if any of them ring true for you. The easiest answer is basic nostalgia. Just like the Midnight Mother trying to remember what she used to be (unproven I know, but the in-world impression), perhaps she was forgetting what it felt like to be human and wanted to feel it again. Another is the part of the story that kept talking about Tsa's cities and towers and things. If you were a human born to the relative dark ages and were now looking down on a Golden Age of culture and technology that is wildly different from what you remembered, you might feel like you missed out and want to try the new flavor. But the one that I land on, the theme that I see shining though more and more cosmere-wide, is the simple fact that these arent all-knowing, infallible, ineffable Gods. No matter how much power you give them at their core they are still just People, and are still as fallible as People have always been. I see this theme in making mistakes (by his own estimation) Sazed post-Ascension. This theme is all over Warbreaker, and I see it more and more in Stormlight, where one god is dead, another is the enemy they have to outsmart, and there are ten insane people running around that even the Stormfather calls "divinities". I think this is going to prove an important distinction, as the difference between a mortal holding a Shard and the Investiture of a Shard gaining sentience on it's own. The Stormfather is already being used to explore this, since he used to be the WOB example of the latter, but is learning more about the former now that he's gaining insight from Tanavast's ghost. And if they have any hope of defeating Odium, I think it will hinge on finding a way to exploit and defeat Rayse. Because at the end of the day the Shards arent (narratively) supposed to be Forces of Nature, they are Characters. I fully expect we'll get some chance to get to know them on something like a personal before we get the full Dragonsteel prequel. For what it's worth, this is also why in this theory I personally lean toward the scenario where Tanavast himself made a Choice or had a moment of weakness or whatever, and is himself responsible, as opposed to being caught in some legalese shenanigan. But either way, I think it will be their humanity that is and was the key. It also (to me at least) makes a more interesting story. Either it was Tanavast cheating that caused the problems with his internal guilt and/or with Cultivation's anger, or her ill-conceived "vacation" ultimately broke his mind and got him killed, leaving her with no small amount of guilt herself. It might also explain the very careful wording in this WOB: Oh, new idea for the Implications list: What If the Dawnshards are the literal living Children of Honor and Cultivation, and one is different from the rest because that one was is the child of Honor and Tsa-as-Cultivation, not the original.

This is entirely a Tinfoil Hat theory. It could be, I havent found anything specific to make it impossible, but that's because it is mostly based on vague hints and themes and an interpretation of one of Hoid's stories. But it would explain quite a bit using known realmic mechanics and cosmere themes. I think I know what broke Honor, what changed in those last days that made him doubt himself, doubt the Radiants, abdicate the creation of Spren, prepare the Stormfather as his heir, create the Visions, and apparently weakened him enough for Shattering, etc: I think he had an affair. With Queen Tsa. I think Hoid's story of the Moon Gods is describing the shardic Soap Opera that went down. The short version of the story is that a very clever mortal queen tricked the celestial entity that is female and color-coded Green to trade places for a day, only to later discover that it was all a scam to have a night and a child with the male celestial being color-coded White. That translates to Cultivation voluntarily giving up her Shard (which they can do by WOB), temporarily entrusting it to a Mortal so that she (Cultivation) could experience Mortal life again. This put Honor in a pickle, because the rationale behind how he is keeping his Oaths (like the non-interference deal among the Shards) is based on the Fact that Cultivation and his Wife are the same being, and suddenly that was no longer the case. Now, whether he made any actual Choice to "mingle" with the Temporary Cultivation, or if their mutual Investment in Roshar caused it automatically, I cant really say. But either way, he had made multiple Oaths in the past that were now in conflict: Either his pre-existing marriage trumps the Shardic Deal, or Possessing a Shard takes precedence. Either he had made a baby with a woman that he was not married to, or he had Co-habitated with another Shard and violated the agreement between the 16 that supersedes his mortal marriage. This is the sort of internal conflict that can drive ordinary folks crazy, but for Tanavast it brought him firmly in conflict with his own Shardic Intent, and by a means that is done and in the past and impossible to repair (without time travel). Note: This is based on the assumption that Honor was rationalizing staying with Cultivation via their pre-existing marriage, that it would not be "interference" to settle with your own spouse. There are a few fun possible implications of this: Queen Tsa would then be a Sliver Queen Tsa might have then been Unmade. Having that sort of direct Connection to Honor and Cultivation could explain why Ba-Ado-Mishram is uniquely able to Channel Voidlight, or why Sja-Anat is able to Corrupt Spren that are made of some mix of Honor and Cultivation. Nohadon could be of this bloodline. WOB is that Vessels can have Babies, and that it would have effects. We know that Nohadon was "Someone Special" even among surgebinders and kings, and was not a Herald (but per that vision at least was indeed a Surgebinder). Kaladin might be of this bloodline. WOB says that the Stormfather calling Kaladin, specifically, a Son of Tanavast is significant. This would explain why. EDIT: The Dawnshards are the literal Children of Honor and Cultivation, and one is different from the rest because that was is the child of Honor and Tsa. Queen Tsa...Tsa..T.S.A.... The Stormlight Archive? Queen Tsa is the hidden secret of The Stormlight Archive?

Oh, 100% agree, the barrier now is mostly their relative lack of understanding. Also, Cooperation could solve some of the difficulties. The part about one scouting and relaying it to another who makes a display sounds exactly like how Shallan's Warmap spell works, with Dalinar Connecting her to the Stormfather's perceptions.