Kelek's Breath

Never thought of Shardclothes. Jezrien would never have to iron his robes, that's for sure. Who knows? I think they are the Vorin depictions, but someone better informed could help out on this one? That's right, forgot he has walked inside Urithiru way before anyone else in modern times. That is the most likely explanation.

I kind of think that they do because in TWoK, he sees him from some distance and just notices "a dark-skinned Azish man who had an odd patch of pale skin on his cheek". Szeth couldn't make out the exact shape. So either they have better art/depictions, or their verbal lore is better.

Based on the text in the Prelude of TWoK, it just seems to me that it may be his original clothing. If they do show up naked or semi-naked, like Taln, what kind of impression would they make on Rosharians? But if they show up with clothing like Jezrien's fine regal clothing, then they can command attention. As to the point if it was Jezrien, we have to assume that it is. There isn't anything else to place doubt on the accuracy of the Prelude...yet. Remember, that Kalak describes Jezrien as a man that looks barely in his thirties. Jezrien, who has a daughter Herald, Shallash that has to at least be in her early twenties. I think that Herald appearance has nothing to do with ages. Jezrien's Vorin depiction is certainly not one of a 30 year old but of someone older. What if the Heralds have an ideal age, or an ideal look, like the Returned do in Warbreaker? Not saying they are Returned but something is going on with them and their aging and appearance, and we can't discount anything at this point. To the 2nd point, Szeth recognizes Nalan from the crescent shaped mark on his face. This means that yes, the Shin have better and different representations of the Heralds. Thus Vorinism's pictures are not wholly accurate. That may be why Taln has not been recognized. Even Shallan, who is very devout, or so she claims, stands beside him and doesnot recognize neither his face nor his physique. What I meant is that right after Eshonai bonds the Stormspren, Pattern and Syl both go crazy, yet Nale is still hunting Lift at that point. He and the other Heralds should know that the Voidbringers have returned (WoB confirms this), yet he still insists on killing Lift because she threatens to bring back the Desolation. Which can either mean that Nale is crazy (the Desolation is on it's way already), or Stormspren/Stormform are not The Voidbringers proper (although they are of Odium to be sure). You are correct. Just went and re-read that, and he does say so albeit not explicitly.

Have been reading this conversation along with other threads on this topic and just have some questions that I think might be able to add to the dialogue or at least bring out some strong opinions (please keep in mind I am not the most Cosmere savvy individual and apologies for the long post beforehand): 1. In the TWoK epilogue, before the gates shake, Hoid launches into a diatribe about what people value most in others. He brings multiple examples (paraphrasing here) of two people discovering the same thing only moments apart, but the one that announces it first is the more revered of the two, and the 2nd just a copycat. So timeliness is what people value. And then Taln shows up announcing the Desolation, but Hoid suggests he may be too late. Which means that either a) the real Taln has already announced it some time ago (suggested by Kari-no-sugata in this thread http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7024-talns-identity/page-9?hl=talenel)and this is a copycat, or, b)this person is not really Taln, and is announcing the Desolation before it happens, leading to all out war within Roshar before the real Taln arrives, who will not be listened to when he announces the real threat. Like the boy who cried wolf. (This would mean that the Listeners are not the real threat-they are influenced by Odium to be sure, but there is another force more powerful coming) (this was suggested by Zandi in this thread - http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7230-whos-a-herald-or-why-brandon-is-careful-about-taln/page-2?hl=talenel) or, c)this is Taln but there has already been an event that has already heralded the Desolation before he got to Roshar, thus he has been beaten by another person who was more timely, and thus Taln is too late. (The question is, who or what has already heralded the Desolation? Is it the unknown event that happened 7 years before current events that started the spren-bonding again?) 2.There are multiple mentions of Taln's scar in the Rosharan night sky as a visible constellation, which might mean that Taln the Herald had a prominent scar on himself. Yet it's not mentioned at all in any of the viewpoints, not even Hoid's, that he bears a scar worth noting. (On a note, it could be a reference to Taln being so strong or powerful, he put a scar on the sky itself.) 3. There is something curious going on with Herald's clothing. Jezrien is still wearing the same robes hundreds or thousands of years into the Oathpact. They are just burnt and bloodied, but still in good shape, not what you would expect from thousands of years of use. Compare to Taln's clothing at the Epilogue: "his clothing nothing more than a ragged sack-like length of cloth wrapping his waist." Can the Heralds not change clothing? Does the clothing they show up in denote them as Heralds, because it is completely different than the clothing of the people of Roshar in previous desolations (ragged tanned skins or leathers)? Would this mean that their clothing may not suffer damage in between Desolations in the place they go (do they have clothes they can summon from the cognitive) Why then is Taln in a sack-like cloth? Where is his warrior-like clothing/armour? 4.Hoid calls Taln "confused, unfortunate friend". If the Heralds are suffering from the reverse attributes that they had, and Ishar is the Herald of Luck, could Hoid be referencing him here as the unfortunate friend? Of course, Taln could also be unfortunate in that he might be too late to save Roshar. But Hoid always uses words and phrases with multiple meaning so it cannot be discounted. 5.Nalan is still chasing surgebinders (if we take the WoR events in sequence) after the Listeners bond the stormspren, and after Taln shows up. There is WoB i believe that says the Heralds would know when a desolation would return based on the Voidbringers returning, and thus would know that Taln had returned. Yet all Nalan, at the end of WoR wants to do is visit the Shin so that they can bring justice to them. Nothing about the Desolations returning or the world coming to an end. He also does not agree with Szeth when he speaks of the Voidbringers having returned. None of the other Heralds show up to find Taln. Thank you for reading this. Thoughts and ideas welcome.

Well, could it be that the Listeners just wanted to be free from Odium"s influence

I was just doing a re-read of the WoR, and while going through the Listener interludes, an alternative theory for the cause of the Recreance occurred to me, which may not have been proposed as of yet. We know that both the spren and humans considered what the Radiants did traitorous. We know through the visions that the Radiants were involved n fighting "devils" at the time. We have the WoR Epigraph about Melishi the Bondsmith coming up with a different stratagem for defeating the Voidbringers, instead of destroying them. So, I propose that, what if the Recreance was a deal/agreement/arrangement between the Radiants and the Listeners to end the war by giving up their powers? What if they both said, we give up our spren, so that Odium has no purchase on Roshar? The Listeners would do this only if the humans would also give up surgebinding. This explains why the Listeners are so concerned about the return of surgebinders, because it is a breaking of the agreement they had made at the Recreance. How to explain the Last Legion? Well, what if the Last Legion was Listeners who found this arrangement not so honourable? What if they thought that it would be more honourable if they had to struggle to attain freedom without sacrificing spren or their identities? What if the Listeners who became the Parshmen (without spren, music or souls) and the Radiants chose the dishonorable option, of "got to do what you can to survive"?(This quote is very prominent in an anti-honourish act). It could also explain This type of arrangement would definitely seem like treason to the humans, because the Radiants made a deal with the Listeners instead of destroying them, and to the spren because they broke their oath of Journey before destination. Any ideas on this? P.S. Excuse my writing of honour with a u. Canadian upbringing.

Nice post. Good job on finding all this cool info. Upvote from me. On an aside, Tartarus is from Greek mythology, where the Titans where imprisoned by Zeus. Sorry for bringing it up but I loved original Clash of the Titans movie and remember it from there.

In keeping with my recent posts of wild speculation: If surgebinding is genetic, as has been speculated in the boards, and we have seen one family with a lot of potential and actual radianst, could either a) Kaladin be the love child of Hesina and Galinar (whom Navanni seems to imply had extra marital affairs) and Lirin did the honourable thing and took her in, or b: Hesina is related to the Alethi royal line in some way, thus bestowing the surgebinding genes to Kaladin and Tien (whom it is believed was a proto-lightweaver). I like wild speculation B for my part.

Random and wild speculation here. Could this WOB from the Seattle signing http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/22170-seattle-firefight-signing-162015/page-4 Coupled with this (TWoK Interlude 1) mean that Odium is the Shardholder that had a sibling/brother? And to speculate even more, could his older brother be Tanavast due to this (TWoK, Ch. 75, The Top Room):

Brandon has possibly been foreshadowing that the squires will get more than just stormlight enhanced powers such as healing or speed. When Kaladin is trying out things in the chasms in WoR, Lopen says how he will attract the ladies better if he flies. After the battle at the end of TWoK, the bridgemen are around the campfire and are eagerly asking if they can also learn how to do these things with the stormlight. So what if the Windrunner squires' strength, is their conviction that they can do what their leader can , and thus have some access (imperfect) to the surges?

Just to add to this discussion. From TWoK, Ch.2, towards the end, when Helaran attacks Kaladin's squad, Cenn, lying on the ground sees him coming towards him My opinion is that Helaran was not a proto-Radiant, because of the evidence of his killing indiscriminantly (as described in Kaladin's flashback in TWoK - nonchalant was the word), but he may have had a spren/nahel bond. Not all people with a Nahel bond have to be on their way to Radiant status. We still don't know what happened to spren that had bonded people pre-radiant times when the person died/was killed. Remember, as per WoB (which i can't locate at the moment), spren chose to resemble honorblades from the beginning, where as Ishar only put his restrictions on the nahel bond a few desolations after spren had started bonding humans. The question is, are all spren still bound by what Ishar had done, or can they choose to disobey and create nahel bonds without adhering to the Radiant oaths?

I don't see the Diagram as causing chaos to the eyes of Taravangian. It is pretty specific as to what the targets should be and the results of said actions. To me, it's like in gardening/agriculture, where you need to prune some branches/offshoots, so that other branches can become stronger and bear fruit. If you don't prune your trees/plants, their crop becomes weaker. So, I think Cultivation is aiming here to cut off/sacrifice some weak branches/offshoots so that humanity as a whole can survive. "Gotta do what you can to survive" is heard often, and I think this is what mr. T is doing. Now, as to how Honour and Cultivation 'got along' before Honour was shattered, would be an interesting story.

There has to be some significance as to why Honor can't give any more useful information. He always tells Dalinar, at the end of the visions things like: "I will give you what I can, I am sorry for not giving you more", "I wish I could help you", "I have said that I cannot be of much help to you", then, in the vision of the True Desolation in TWoK, Tanavast says "I can't leave much. Just these few images, given to you". Is Honour constrained by an agreement with Odium to the type of help he can provide? He also says 2 conflicting things about seeing the future. He claims that He is not good at seeing the future, but Cultivation is better (TWoK pg 1244 paperback), but also says "to speak of what might be is forbidden" (TWoK pg.374 paperback). It's one thing to say that I am no good at seeing the future, and another to say it is forbidden to talk about the future. If Odium and Honour had an agreement, maybe they both agreed that they cannot help their agents too much, except by granting them power/slivers of themselves. Maybe there was a 'no interference rule', whereby the Shards are not allowed to pass any knowledge of ways to win the battle, except the very basics. This would also explain why, when the Heralds walked away, Tanavast could do nothing to reprimand them or bring them back. His hands may have been tied. On another wild tangent, the Heralds may be tied to the Oathpact, but they may not be Honour's champions. Their duty is to show up before the Desolation begins, thus Heralding it, and prepare the humans on Roshar. Maybe humans as a whole are Honour's champions, and as such, Desolations need to wipe out the whole of humanity, to succeed. The Oathpact may just be that Honour has bound them to this task for as long as Odium is attacking the humans.

This is an interesting idea. I like it. I doubt that it's as clear as that. Remember Dalinar's vision of the Recreance. I doubt the darkeyed officer would label humans, and especially other Radiants, as "devils". Could it be Listeners? Voidbringers,but smaller groups than at previous Desolations?

Thank you Moogle. I am also beginning to be in the 'Braize was once the Tranquline Halls' camp.

Oh, thanks for explaining this. I kind of get confused, because I figure that it became Damnation after Odium chased out the humans and they fled to Roshar. I have asked for help in the Question & Answer post, to see if someone can help me understand better.

Hi. I need some help understanding some Stormlight Archive background stuff. 2-part question: Is there WoB on the following: A)Were the humans that now reside on Roshar created by Tanavast/Cultivation or were they brought to Roshar by them from Yolen/other planet where humans lived, with their belongings (culture, animals, etc)? B)Did Tanavast/Cultivation settle the humans on another planet in the Rosharan system first, and were they subsequently chased out by Odium? I know within the books there are hints, but is there more than just hints? Thank you.

I don't think we have seen The Voidbringers or the Unmade as of yet. We have seen some of the effects of the Unmade (the Thrill, the Death cries, Dalina's vision), but not the actual embodied Unmade. Who knows what havoc they will bring. And in my estimation, we have not seen the Voidbringers proper yet. The Parshendi are voidbringers in that they can link with Odium spren and take new Forms, but I don't think they are The Voidbringers (what am I basing this on? Random speculation and the Vorin Lore of being kicked out of the Tranquiline Halls by the Voidbringers). In my opinion, If the Tranquiline Halls used to be Braize, and this was the original Planet of Rosharan humans, wouldn't the Voidbringers have kicked them out of there? These could not have been the Parshendi, who were always Roshar based. Thus, if the first 5 book arc is only about stopping this Desolation (with the Unmade and Voidbringers), without Odium showing up, the next 5 book arc, can be about Odium actually making it over to Roshar from Braize.

First, let me say thank you for the work of recording and transcribing the reading. Take an upvote from me, both of you. So, Also, I wonder if he will read out any other texts in the other signings.

I believe (evidence from the video) he only read from the 3rd book of the series. As to any possible Q&A sessions, nothing's popped up yet.

Just a suggestion, but maybe this should be in the WoR forum, since I think some of those expressions are found only in that book. To add, there are some more weird expressions in the WoK and WoR that show there is something more going on. For example: "Talenelat Elin, bearer of all agonies" "Kelek knows" "Ishi, Herald of Luck, be praised" WoR spoliers To me, they show that ther was some knowledge in the past of what the Herals's could do, but all that has survived is the curses/expressions. Most curious for me is the one that names Taln as the bearer of all agonies.

So, we see Gavilar arguing with Amaram during Jasnah's prologue. Then, when he is dying, he names Restares as a potential person that hired the assasin. Knowing that Restares is with Amaram a few months later when Kaladin gets branded, does anyone think that Gavilar was arguing with Amaram over what Restares/Amaram and the Sons of Honour have been trying to do, i.e bring about the desolation by bringing back the Voidbringers?

In light of the damage done to Shinovar, we might see the disappearance of many Shinovar fawna and flora, like grass and dirt, chickens and horses. The Rysn's grass pet might become very valuable.

Hi, new member and first time poster. I think that the order that went into hiding were the Skybreakers, for the reasons mentioned above, and also from what Jasnah mentions in the Epilogue of WoR. When she comes back from Shadesmar, she tells Wit, that what she learnt might all be false. The words of the highspren could be inaccurate. If the highspren were bonded to Radiants that didnot die, it would make sense that they would be the spren with the most knowledge of the previous Desolations.