The One Who Connects

I'm surprised Yata didn't mention this, given how it's been his main complaint against awakening liquids in the past. Liquid isn't exactly a single object in the same way a rake is, so for all you know you might end up awakening a single drop of water or trying to awaken the entire lake. Cognitive Perception of Liquids is.. an issue. Also, as Calderis said, the true power of Awakening is the mental image that accompanies it. It's why the 10th Height. grants mental commands. The words help shape the mental image(read literally any book, you'll get a description of the scenery that conjures images in your head), but the mental picture is what the awakened object tries to emulate. A rake doesn't have a dictionary on hand, so words are just noise. But a mental image of the rake waking down the street? It can try and emulate that with the limited cognizance granted by the Breath. Speaking of Mental Command @Calderis, here's a question I want your opinion on: The 9th Heightening grants the ability to awaken objects within the sound of your voice, without requiring physical touch. The 10th Heightening grants the ability to awaken objects with your mind, without requiring your voice. Given that Height 9 specifically says "sound of your voice," would someone at the 10th still be required to touch objects for mental command?

You get points for making a connection, but Brandon has said.. interesting things about the subject that make me believe it's not what you think it is.

While I like your idea(it's a clever bit of cheating the system, so you get points for that), I do think there is a sizable chunk of Tanavast remaining, albeit not in the way Stormrunner was thinking. From a discussion I had with Robardin last month: I figured that was "Honor" talking, personally. A merged consciousness ought to have some shared memories, and that's a pretty apt way to describe a cognitive shadow to somebody without going too deep into details. Tanavast's personality might have been overrode by the Stormfather, but would the memories and information contained within Tanavast's expanded mind have been lost too? I feel like they wouldn't have, which could help explain some of the Stormfather's actions and words.

I know. But we know that Odium doesn't get splintered, and we know Odium is still Odium, and not combined with Honor or Cultivation or what-have-you. That's still a big deal Whatever happens with Rayse would be too rafo-inducing to get answered.

Yes that would be the prime example. But I like explaining things outside of spoiler tags for the sake of clarity(non-specific examples are better so we can avoid special cases)

It pertains to Edgedancer Spoilers, so if you haven't read that yet, you should read it and come back. Of note, I do not consider the revelations in that book as sufficient evidence.

Cognitive Shadows aren't tape-recorder type awareness anyway. It's literally your mind on its own, with a figurative "body" in the cognitive realm. It isn't that different from someone like Jasnah Elsecalling into the Cognitive Realm, except that a Cognitive Shadow can't really go back into the Physical Realm without some.. interesting hacks to the system.

People know that Mistborn can push/pull on metal. To prevent them from having an advantage, you try to get rid of metal objects, or use aluminum. A Windrunner can lash literally anything around them, including people. Szeth wrecks fools for a reason. Just because a power is very well defined doesn't automatically mean it's easier to defend against. Mistborn and Windrunners can use many objects in their environment, and that versatility makes it harder to defend against even if you know what the power can do. A Basic Lashing is more versatile than Steelpushing/Ironpulling in some respects, and less versatile in others. I'd consider the powers fairly comparable in terms of difficulty to defend against since you can't pull lashed items back to you, but you aren't limited by metal. And sometimes future inventions could make powers harder to defend against. For example, once Awakeners learn about the wonder of spray paint...

The main issue is that we knew what the front Endsheet was(Surgebinding), and we never knew what the read Endsheet was until recently. The Rear Endsheet is a Voidbinding Chart.

That depends on your definition of dead. Tanavast is a cognitive shadow. His body is dead, but his mind is alive. Where do you draw the line?

Odium survives into the back half.

We know... a couple things, but not what you're asking about yet. Brandon and Peter know many things about it, but it's a complex issue that Brandon doesn't just remember off the top of his head. The Second WoB is mostly here because it means we can't use the Weeping as a pattern point for the moon orbits.

It's the rationale Calderis uses for following the theory, but it's not where it started. Me and Weltall came up with the theory back in April. He pinned her as a potential Herald, and I added some thoughts that led me towards Chana being the most likely one. The WoP certainly helps out, but the idea is a fair bit older

This is a good point. Not sure what that would translate to for other worlds like Scadrial, but it's a starting point that we didn't have before

I'd like to talk to you about Arts and Majesty.

You raise a valid point. And that raises a question: How does the mental perception thing work when someone else is healing you? Ex: Would Kaladin's Slave Brands or Kelsier's Scars have remained if they were healed by someone else?

Except it can't. Brandon has directly said that's not what happened. Of course the WoB I provided is not relevant to Spren reproduction. Why would it be? The portion of your comment I was responding to had nothing to do with Spren reproduction. Quoth You: The portion of my comment that you made the above snippet in response to was about the capacity of the Spren to affect the world. I don't see where(or why) Spren Reproduction enters the conversation. This fits completely with my "goes sporadic the moment he moves forward" comment. The bond becoming sporadic fits with him having difficulties with it. Eventually, those difficulties will get worse and reach a breaking point. Whatever he was currently doing at the time isn't supremely relevant. Although, perhaps trying to pull in Stormlight through a strained bond like that is what makes it get worse by straining it even further, which would mean it "breaking" when he tried to draw in Stormlight is relevant in a different way. That could put a damper in the plans of our Surgebinders right before the Recreance. Given how "Snapping" is a thing, I see it as a bit more of a binary thing. As for this vague recollection, try and find it. I've never seen it before, and it would help settle this portion of the debate(and probably a few other debates throughout the forums). I find it somewhat amusing how circular our disagreement on this point has become. You feel that the logical component is not enough to cause the Recreance, so it needs an emotional impact to push them over the edge. I feel that the emotional impact is not enough to cause the Recreance, so it needs a logical component to push them over the edge. We both appear to be pushing a 60/40 interpretation slanted our respective way. Weak logic alone will sputter out due to shortage of decisive evidence. Emotion alone will sputter out over time as cooler heads prevail. We seem to agree that neither bit(logic/emotion) is enough on its own. I'm proposing a 40/20/40 split. It's 40% logical & 40% emotional(not enough for either side to take action), and 20% intertwined(pushing both camps over the edge). Something in the revelation that plays to both sides equally, so that the logical thinkers can't just deny the emotional ones as brash or hotheaded, and the emotional ones actually have discussion points to win over logical thinkers. I have absolutely no idea what this revelation could be, but this seems like the best option. I suppose I just have a higher opinion of how much the "insanity" stigma will limit people's actions, especially nowadays since Spren Bonds are even less common knowledge than they were in the past era. Ah.. now I now why that never sat right with me. Extending the Desolation is against the basic instinct of self-preservation, and a Spren society smart enough to know how to expand their numbers should understand that. Longer Desolations --> More People Die --> Less Cognitive Thought --> Less Spren More Desolations --> Less Time for Humanity to Repopulate/Rebuild --> Desolation becomes Less of a Fight, More of a Slaughter --> Even Less Cognitive Thought --> Even Less Spren Shorter Desolation --> Fewer Casualties --> Smaller Loss of Cognitive Thought --> Smaller Loss of Spren Less Desolations --> More Time for Humanity to Rebuild --> Shorter Desolation .exe Less Desolations --> More Time for Humanity to Repopulate --> More Population, More Cognitive Thought --> More Spren Spren(like the Cognitive Realm itself) are a product of cognitive perception. Desolations kill off large portions of humanity, and Parshendi, and Aimians, and probably Greatshells. Pronounced losses of thinking beings is a pronounced loss of cognitive perception, which is a pronounced loss in the Cognitive Realm. Consider Nohadon's Desolation: 11 years of fighting. 9/10th of humanity dead in many places. The World torn asunder. Just imagine for a second how that affected the Cognitive Realm. I don't know about you, but I imagine that did quite a number on it, and if I were a Spren, I wouldn't be putting in place a plan that will(not might, will) replicate a situation like that. The potential gain in Nahel Spren is not worth the loss of Spren in general, coupled with an increased risk of Odium winning, which would decimate life in the PR, with the Cognitive crumbling down with it. No, that was me not understanding what you meant by "making it worse" at the time. I understand now, and have addressed it above. I hold a "potential betrayal" years ago as far less of a big deal than an actual betrayal in the here and now. I just don't see Dalinar doing it, and once again, I'm disagreeing with you due to levels of intensity: Dalinar was hit with a very heavy 1-2-3 combo in quick succession. He learned that his god is real. He then learned that his god is dead. He's told that he has to fight the deity that killed god, and he keeps on his path. In my opinion, it'd take a lot to rattle his personal convictions more than that. 1) I'd agree with you. Not enough information yet. 2) I never said it would qualify, merely that those who dedicate themselves to remembrance and listening to others don't seem the type to throw around the "vengeance card." Someone like Kaladin, who's all about protecting others? He's a reasonable fit for avenging the people he couldn't protect, in an attempt to protect others down the line. Lift though? I just don't see her character going on a vengeance tear. 1) I did. Glad to see me saying "The Heralds" was a clear enough statement. 2) And now we're back to the "How and Why" game. (as per usual) - How do you propose the Spren learned this information? Ishar made an assumption when they left Taln behind. If he's uncertain about the accuracy of his hypothesis, I don't see the Spren somehow knowing related information as fact or even as hearsay. - Why would the Heralds have agreed to this? As mentioned above, more/longer Desolations is against humanity's best interests, making it against the Herald's best interests as protectors of humanity. 3) Nahel Spren trying to inflate their numbers is a.. decent starting point for a theory, but you'll have to flesh out some of those other ways to go about it, as the Desolation path doesn't appear to be a lucrative idea in the long run. Short-Term maybe, but I don't imagine forces of nature focus on the short-term. And now we get into what might become a philosophical debate. (Surprised it took this long, all things considered) The Orders were created by Spren trying to imitate the Heralds, which, to me, would not have been "making the Orders in a dishonorable manner." I don't think the Spren would have even known about/understood the "must be broken" criteria when they first started bonding either. As such, I'll discuss the potential impact of the Orders being sustained by your theory. That's gonna split more on a person to person level than you think. Have a few potential reasons for why our honorable fellows may keep going in spite of this. If the Spren that the KR was bonded to was not one that was "in the know." If a valid reason was provided for why bondfarming is a good idea. The theoretical "greater good" argument and one's responsibility to it. The actual "greater good" and the lack thereof in the world at large. Personal interpretation of the situation and whether or not it's dishonorable. If the Spren explained the "must be broken" criteria. This is gonna need to be a bigger deal than just "we tried to make you into a KR candidate by royally screwing with your life." It's got to have something that makes the potential validations for it seem weaker in comparison, something that makes it more concisely dishonorable, and for the life of me, I can't imagine what that could be.

(A + B + Physics = D), where A = Power One, B = Power Two, & D = Resonance. The issue is that we don't know anything about the Physics variable other than it's very difficult/confusing to explain. Essentially. Indeed. Interactions between different Orders and between members of the same Order will be quite fascinating to read.

We're pretty sure. The comparison is... rather spot-on Kholinar & Stormseat (Emphasis added)

See, this is what you should've done from the start. Would've made for less miscommunication since this makes a lot more sense. In general, fleshing out ideas is also good for discussion value, which is a plus on a discussion forum. I considered Plate, but we know that you can decline having it(and some KR did). This undefined talent granted by the bond wasn't something they could refuse. That's why it felt off back when you just said "fighting talent." Blade is a little harder to refute like that, but the shapeshifting thing helps. It's a lot easier to get around having a magical sword forced upon you when you can change it into anything else(like a dagger, a hammer, or a fork ) You also don't have to summon it, whereas talent seemed like something more innate and harder to not make use of. You would be right that it wasn't all drawing, Lightweavers were largely those who pursued "The Arts," which is one of the most diverse categories you can get. Art, Literature, Sculpting, Music, Painting, etc.. It's also of note that the failed recruit's failure was because of a lack of self-realization, rather than a lack of artistic skill(not that you were implying that, just adding facts for the sake of overall clarity). I'm still a little reticent about it being her skill in acting/drawing, but I can see where you're coming from. I do agree about the Skybreakers being a walking Aon Kii, at least until Brandon nails down what their Resonance is. If that guilt sense is their Resonance, is there anything else we could use as a potential fancy talent? or do we just not know enough about them yet? Edit: Given "The Arts," would a profession that has been referred to as an artisan of some sort count? Craftsmen, skilled trade, making things by hand. Something like a woodworker or metalworker would count, maybe a carpenter, and many more. That could make for a fascinating diversity of backstories for this new generation of Lightweavers. Or that scene is just the result of Stormlight amping the talent granted by his bond. Either way, if it's something granted by his bond it should rule out anything that happened pre-bond. I can accept that the arena fight was some sort of Stormlight Boosted version of his baseline ability since there is precedent for those types of powers in the Cosmere, so it seems like we largely agree here. Thank you. Unless Syl can read his mind at that point, she didn't "hear" him think that back in Chap 44. Meaning that her statements about "lots of practice and the advantage of talent" were her own words rather than throwing Kaladin's words back at him to calm him down. Not sure if there's something big in that distinction, but it was there to be made.

There was a signed book this one time... So that's the biggest reason we still think the plains were shattered. That and the potential cymatic patterns(the plains being symmetrical). Either way, we know something happened, and it'll be the cause of the city's abandonment and/or the plains being shattered.

I don't see a false accent being that unthinkable. Granted, a spanish accent came naturally to me when I started learning the language, so my opinion may be biased. Since Mraize is a worldhopper, using an accent from another world is a very smart move on a world like Roshar. People will just assume he's from one of the various countries they've never been to, but not being able to pin down an origin. Even those who are a bit more versed in linguistics don't know everything. In the absence of clear physical features(like skin color/build/etc..), people try to use accents to place someone's ethnicity. Ooh, here's an idea. (And an unlikely one, I'll admit that up front) All Shallan says is that she "couldn't place his accent." What do you guys think about the possibility that his accent is a mix of several? It's got the potential to be an even better tactic, as you'd have some sense of familiarity to his accent combined with unfamiliar things. That little sense of confusion could keep someone focused on his accent for a little while, giving him the edge in the conversation while the other party is slightly distracted.

Personally, I don't like either of those theories, as they'd make awakening useless in the rest of the Cosmere. We've already done that with Sel, and Awakening isn't as overpowered as AonDor is. I just don't think it needs that extra restriction.

I'm aware you agree. Those were concluding my statement that was responding to the other person, which is why they were above where I quoted you. Healing isn't exactly on the same wavelength as talent. Magically-granted healing is a useful power to augment your skills. Magically-granted talent, besides making your own skills seem useless in retrospect, is a can of worms. If talent in fighting is part of the bond itself(just the bond, not order specific), then why are/were there KR who did not fight? If the ability to fight is part of their innate powers, then they would likely be expected to fight. It feels off that people who are magically granted fighting talent didn't make use of it. If it is order specific(making it decided by the "flavor" of the Spren), then what might the other's get? Shallan's Memory thing is her Resonance(making it the surges, which you previously stated you were not talking about), and her artistic temperament is something that most of the Order shared, but not all. What other fancy thing could she get from her bond? I'll have to check the scene itself. (see below) Who says he has to be directing you away from something? Ok, regarding the arena scene: Some things of note: This "could've dodged just as well with his eyes closed" sounds suspiciously like Atium. The "winds urging him" feels a little like when someone is reacting to Atium Shadows. His ability to do this is very clearly something that requires Stormlight, as he barely dodges Relis without Stormlight. Requiring Stormlight should rule out anything pre-bond. Also of note is that as of WoR Chapter 44, Kaladin considered his skill with the spear as being due to "training long and hard." When did the discussion between Kal and Syl happen in relation to this?

I'll have to agree with CaptainRyan here. Aharietiam was 4,500 years ago. The Recreance was about 2,200 years ago, and probably led to destruction of records pertaining to the KR and Oathgates, among other related things. The Hierocracy was also a thing. Jasnah can hardly separate fact from fiction, and if this is a legend in Vorinism, that's even more suspect. Brandon might be dropping a subtle hint here, but I imagine that we'll see the Shattering of the Shattered Plains eventually, so the accuracy of Navani's statement is not a big deal right now.