The One Who Connects

Did you forget about that day he drew up a law ordering those below a certain intelligence to commit suicide? His superb arguments aren't exactly the best idea, no matter how "convincing" he felt that law would have been were he given the opportunity to explain it to the people. Also, simply being united isn't enough. He wanted other things to be done as well, and his "comrades" wouldn't always have gone for it. The Parshendi needed to be gone(probably to prevent the Everstorm, since the Desolation would've happened anyway), the KR shouldn't be around either. Dalinar needs to be on his side or out of the picture. Anything that could cause division and prevent "the plan" from being enacted needs to be dealt with before the Desolation gets going. He's unified the whole of Jah Keved already, and is on his way towards unifying with Alethkar. And from there, the world. I can actually see the logic of causing the instability and taking control afterwards(wasn't the best idea to do right before a Desolation, but he already on the clock). A point made ages ago regarding how humanity could actually recover from the Desolations was that people are less likely to fight each other after one. A focus on improvement can override inclinations for war, especially in the wake of a devastating one. Jah Keved went through quite a destructive succession war, and I don't think the people will tolerate another one. Now that Taravangian is in charge, the stability he provides will keep him in charge. It's why Franklin Roosevelt got elected President for 4 straight terms. In the wake of the Great Depression and later, World War II, he provided stability for the nation. And with the Desolation here, stable leadership is what people will need. he can lead them to safety and they'll follow his guiding hand. Wow, that's an interesting perspective shift. Taravangian engineered a crisis so he could pull an FDR and take charge almost unopposed(like the '36 Election). At this crucial juncture, the world won't survive unless it is united. Taravangian is trying it one way, Dalinar is doing another. We just know more about Dalinar's way, which is why we doubt Taravangian

Never refine by specific dates. It's rubbish. The other fun tip is that, counter-intuitively, you will get more accurate search results with less words. To quote myself from the "Nuances of Search Functions" bit in my Sig: I refined it to search within topic titles only, and used "Shaman," "Shamans," "Shamanism," "Stoneward," and "Stonewards" separately. Sounds about par for the course. A general rule of thumb is that I mostly offer corrections or additional information, rather than actually debating things unless I get myself roped into it. The Other Topics are a good example of the former. Originally, I was gonna post them as a "this has been talked about over here, might be useful to you." Then I realized how many times it'd been discussed and I got a little out of phase. So sorry for that. I knew our point had never been addressed, but some of the others had. I should've actually read them rather than assuming some of them had those more straight up shutdowns on things. (I assumed there was a 2 year gap in discussing the topic for a reason) I only addressed the one point(albeit indirectly) because it was the only one I saw any need to address. I'll admit I was a little rude and that I should've added a little more reasoning to my statement, but I'd gotten tired of discussing it. I trust Honor's Vision, and don't see them faking it regardless. In my eyes, Stubbornness and Subterfuge don't mix. I don't think modulating how much the blade glows is something they have the ability to do. I don't see the point of the ability. Outside of faking the Recreance, why would that ability be used? Even if they could, I don't think they'd be able to do so while not actually holding the blade. (If somebody has their blade change form while they aren't holding it, then maybe, but until then... The blade is described as being silver. The garnet lines are describes as faint lines along the blade itself. Even if they were brighter, Shallan wouldn't be able to see those in the first part because the blade was run through Tyn at the time. Kaladin likely points them out for the same reason Adolin points out the glow on Dalinar's plate. They've seen plate/blade before, but the glow is unique, so they notice it. I'm not fully sure on the Oathgate bit, but I feel that has more to do with the mechanism itself unlocking than anything else. On the subject of arguments from the past.. Quoth Marianmi: "Then you can argue for any order to have done that " It's probably of note that you appear to be the 3rd person who doesn't consider Honor's Vision as sufficient evidence that the Stonewards quit. There is the part where they gave up their Shardplate too, which I don't believe anyone has brought up. Your thoughts on that portion of the proceedings? Also, since you mentioned I didn't address some of your other points: We have an astonishing lack of blade details beyond our main cast. Courtesy of Maxal: Moash's blade could be a Truthwatcher blade, as Progression can make vines/plants grow. User thejopen27 believes there was a mention of a blade with geometric patterns running along it at some point. I'd probably consider that as a Lightweaver Blade from the similarity to a Cryptic, but I don't know when then mention happened. Regarding our Radiants, have the table from the Wiki(which might format weirdly on mobile, so fair warning) And that's that. Now that the internet appears to be functioning again, I can finally post this.

According to the Coppermind, Tae was is Chapter 25, Tia was Chapter 19 Ok, the Tae was a red herring, so that's on my bad memory. From Chapter 19: (oh, it's in Raoden's dream sequence) The secondary paragraph makes me believe the dream was a memory, and thus actually happened. Make of "place their hand on the character" as you wish.

What gave you that impression? Certainly not this paragraph:

The Level of "Oh it's this discussion again" is too dang high. Mid-December 2012: Szeth and the Stone Shaman Early March 2014: The stone shamans and the Honorblade Mid-March 2014: Stone Shamanism descended from Stonewards Late March 2014: The Shin are actually descended of the Stonewards, not Skybreakers. Mid-April 2014: stone shamanism and KR (Spoilers) Early June 2014: The Stonewards went into hiding Early July 2016: The Stone Shamans and the Faithful order (Extended Version) Mid-September 2016: Origins of Stone Shamanism Early October 2016: The Legendary Stubbornness of the Stonewards Far be it for me to say this vein of discussion should have died out centuries ago, but.... I've made this argument before. And like you, I was debating it with Yata. Funny how things work out huh? As stated in what is now ten threads, the Stonewards quit. That said, the above option is still on the table for one of the other Orders to have used.

I knew an Elantrian would have to do the activation every time, but I was thinking about those teleportation plates in Elantris to traverse the city. Those were presumably inscribed by an Elantrian ages ago, and I don't recall Raoden and company needing to redraw the plates to use. That and our only usage of Aon Tae to open the secret door. I might be misremembering the book(it's been a while), but I got the impression that those were always viable to activate, provided you were an Elantrian.

Non-Oathbroken Spren go through a little trauma from the experience of the bond ending, but they can eventually return and bond another. For Oathbringer to be a Blade, that means the Radiant it was bonded to participated in the Recreance(or broke it separately at some point before/after, but most likely the Recreance). However, as stated before, Spren have names of their own. The KR don't "name" their Shardblades, per se. Even if they did, that name wouldn't get passed down during the Recreance. The name "Oathbringer" almost certainly came after the Recreance, and probably before the Hierocracy.

Rookie. It's a theory, nothing more. We don't actually know, but your son's instincts are pretty good. There's also timeline things, but that's best left in the discussion about the bird. I think they brought it up because Dalinar doesn't know Taravangian visited the Nightwatcher. Mr T is using an imaginary "affliction" as a cover for the effects of his boon/bane.

I'd like to see that WoB. I've always had it in my head that Aons "drawn" into a plate would be reusable right away.

I don't think it's as simple as building an Aon Rao shaped city with Aon Ela shaped streets.

Unless we have WoB, I think it's her not knowing that she can do it. It's probably a skill that takes a little bit of practice to get down, or at least knowing that she can(perception).

If you meant what I said about them "finding the Honorblades" in my prior post, that was supposed to have been framed as an assumption, not a fact. I've better explained it in the past, so I'll let April Me explain:

On the subject of Rosharan Trees: They seem to be more common than you'd think. The biggest issues with making instruments from them is that the density of the wood might not be suitable for it.(I'm no expert here)

The Stances(or at least, the Seven that we currently know of) share names with the Ten Essences. Windstance for Zephyr(Wind) Smokestance for Vapor Flamestance for Spark ?? for Lucentia (Soulcasting properties include glass and crystal) Vinestance for Pulp(Soulcasting properties include plants and moss) Bloodstance for Blood ?? for Tallow (Soulcasting properties include oils) Ironstance for Foil (Soulcasting property is metal) Stonestance for Talus (Soulcasting properties are rock and stone) ?? for Sinew (Soulcasting properties include meat and flesh) They also incorporate aspects that are reminiscent of those elements. Windstance has flowing graceful movements like wind. Flamestance exemplifies the fury of flame with constant attacks. Stonestance may as well be boulderstance, emulating the immovable boulder in defense and the unstoppable falling boulder on offense. I'd consider them non-magical systems to add depth to the story. If you've read much Star Wars Lore about Lightsaber Combat, I'd consider these Stances to be like the Seven Forms. World building to give combat a different flavor than just "slash, riposte, jab, etc.." Re-Shephir did try to learn how to fight with spears, so I could see her learning about the Stances, but I'm not sure knowing/not knowing them will be some huge advantage. A minor one because the KR are trained in swordplay, perhaps. But nothing more.

Come to think of it, are we just being dumb and forgetting about Yolen?

Depends on the accuracy of the Vorin teachings. Aharietiam was the Last Desolation. Honor lived to see the Recreance, roughly two to two and a half millennia later. Additionally, I don't believe there is a similarly ruined area on Sel, where Devotion and Dominion were Splintered. I don't think it affects the physical realm in that way. Khriss' talk about Ambition seemed like it'd be something different. Funnily enough, I actually don't think we have any that say or imply that. We have WoB that there were no Desolations before humans were on Roshar, but humans there predate the Shattering, so that means nothing.

I'm aware of those. I don't particularly put much thought either way on the subject. I was asking him(or her) specifically why they thought there was something wrong with it. As someone who never really got that feeling from the text/WoBs, I'm curious about individual opinions. Most bonded Spren reside in Greatshell Gemhearts. I don't know if I can see Sja-Anat reaching into a Chasmfiend(literally or metaphorically) to access the Gemheart and the Spren inside. That said, she could probably corrupt a Spren before it bonded with a Greatshell, but then that leads to the other argument, which I've already had. Quoth me and Brightlord Maelstrom from July:

Greatshells are part of the natural ecology of the planet as far as I'm aware. Which would make them predate the Shattering. If there's any connections, they'd be intentional meddling on the part of one of the Shards. Out of curiosity, what made you draw a connection between Greatshells and odium? What makes you say there's something wrong with the afterlife? As for Moelach, the Death Rattles don't interfere with dying. When one approaches death, the barriers between the realms weaken. One can potentially see into the SR and see all manner of information. I think that Moelach's touch allows them to interpret this information a little bit, and in a moment of clarity, panic or insanity, the dying individual exclaims about something that they see. A Larkin can consume Stormlight. That's probably a big deal when your magical power source is Stormlight. Additionally, Larkins are a stage in the life cycle of the Lanceryn. We don't know much about them, but their larval form(Larkin) can both consume Stormlight and can fly. If they retain those characteristics after growing, we could have the Rosharan equivalent of a dragon. I'd probably call that important. Don't know about their placement on the Surgebinding Chart though. Quoth Hoid: Make of this as you wish.

It's fine. As reasonable as it would be, I don't feel like his path of terror was a circle around the continent . Guess we'll have to ask Brandon about that at some point.

A lot of things have to line up in order for all manner of things to occur in both fiction and reality. Guess my "suspension of disbelief" tolerance is just a bit higher than yours. It's only gotta happen once, so agree to disagree. This is true, but the instructions that Taravangian left for Szeth in WoK I-6 included a lot of targets on it. Quoth Szeth: "...blood, was a sheet of paper. He took it, and his Stormlight illuminated some two dozen names written in the warrior's script of his homeland. Some had a note beside them with instructions on how they were to be killed." I'm not sure Taravangian precisely time-tabled 25 to 30 assassinations. Given that the instructions for his own name included that he was to be killed last, I can see him arranging the names in a particular order, but the text says "how they were to be killed." It'd be very easy for Brandon to change the text to say "on how and when they were to be killed," yet he didn't. So I don't think Taravangian jotted down more specificity than an overall deadline.

As a fan of Cersei Lannister, I can agree that this is a rather accurate way to put it. Is some of the stuff she is doing reprehensible and cruel, absolutely. Do I think those actions are justified, not always. Do I still like her character anyway, yes. That's how literary villains get real-world fanbases. Loki, TLR, Darth Vader, Raidriar, etc.. not exactly the best of dudes, but if we can find things to like about them, we're willing to overlook some of the bad things.

A lot of us talk about individual things separately if we can, so that it's clearer what we are specifically responding to. It's given some of us a bit of a bad habit in tunnel vision-ing things here and there. Sorry about that. As for lost time, I had to catch up on two years back in 2016. It's a little rough at first, but once you've gotten started, you can get back into the swing of things without too much trouble. Fair enough. But when do book/movie characters ever plan out a route before-hand? As for the "often enough" bit, he only needs to have flown over the mountain once to find Urithiru. Deciding to check out the mountain that surpasses the clouds on your way past seems reasonable enough for a person who has the power to fly. Do it during/before a Highstorm so he can recharge his spheres afterwords, and his employer will be none the wiser. (Not that I think Taravangian cared as long as Szeth got the job done) I did mention earlier that the Shin having knowledge that they didn't destroy after the Recreance could explain how he found Urithiru, but as long as another option was still possible, we explore it. On an entertaining note, I had a different page open for the same purpose: https://www.kavas.com/blog/great-circle-and-rhumbline As for Urithiru "nearing" the equator, it's still lower down than many of the cities on Roshar. Without actually calculating, I could see him going near it on an great circle path from Panatham(Babatharnam) to Elanar(Jah Keved). Additionally, a trek northwest would have a great circle path that goes horizontally for a bit and then goes up(My link has an interactive one, check out the circle for Falkland Islands to Lesotho). A trek like that from Vedenar to say.. Rall Elorim could pass near Urithiru.

She recognized "Lightweaver" and had that associated with last time it happened. That's a bit of comprehension. I don't necessarily think Re-Shephir has to understand anything else about how she was imprisoned. She could always understand more, but I don't think it's a given that she does. Her hasty retreat from Shallan could merely be trauma, or a sign that the original imprisoning happened quickly, before Re-Shephir could comprehend/react to what was happening. She could have been captured elsewhere and brought there to be put in a more permanent cell, and then it'd be up to how aware Re-Shephir could be while trapped. The gems could power some type of barrier elsewhere in the room. Without an understanding of electric lines, I'm not sure how easily one could make the connection between the battery and the product. I've always thought the Unmade were older than the KR too, so that's another agreement.

I wasn't arguing whether or not they know. 1-3 were replying to the specific points that were numbered 1-3. You said there was tangential evidence that they had Honorblades in an "official capacity." I argued that specifically, because I don't see it. You implied that their knowledge of terms like Lashing and Regrowth were evidence of them being trained and entrusted the Blades. I provided other ways they could have come by that information. 3 was mostly the same. You said the only likely ways to get that knowledge was heralds or Spren, and I provided other possibilities. Probably more inconvenient to fly way off to the side of a wide mountain than to fly over the top of it. And if you're going in a straight path, you can adjust to lash yourself upwards pretty early on(it's a big mountain, so you should see it from aways back). You could also just land on the mountain if you're short on stormlight, and he could use the next highstorm to power himself and his spheres. IIRC, he also knew about that little village down the mountain that left him spheres now and then. If he landed on the mountain near there, that could be why he discovered it. Maybe I'm just not getting the sense of mountainous scale from the map image. Well, we know that Otto placed his orthographic map nearly perfectly along the latitude/longitude lines, so we have that to go off of. Speaking of which, I presume that the shortest path between two points on the same line of latitude would not be to follow that latitude line, yes? It'd be to circumvent that distance by going further south and curving up(Since everything but the Reshi Isles are in the Southern Hemisphere) Oh boy. I'm not sure I know the math to calculate paths like that. Edit: haversine formula.. yep, definitely new stuff for me

I don't think they do either, but the Unmade are Splinters, which are not planet specific. It's entirely possible that he made the Unmade somewhere else and they came with him. (Unlikely, but possible) Spren are difficult to get off of Roshar, but not impossible, so it could happen to the Unmade. I think they are a product of Odium being trapped on Roshar, but as a decision by him rather than something forced on him. Re-Shephir was ordered to cause chaos and confusion. Nergaoul and the Thrill gets men fighting each other to the death, rather than surrendering, giving mankind less people in a coming Desolation. Yelig-Nar killed scribes and wordsmen, limiting avenues of communication. Moelach and the Death Rattles have been theorized as a form of information gathering for Odium. Sja-Anat corrupts Spren, which has all manner of ramifications. Dai-Gonarthis has something about consuming sorrow, which is a little more nebulous. Regret is a synonym of Sorrow, and if humanity doesn't feel regret for their actions, that could cause a lot more bad things to happen. (Desolation is also a synonym of Sorrow.. intriguing) These all seem like things that would help Odium in a coming Desolation. I've always had the impression that the Unmade were made for the purpose of destabilizing men, in the same vein as the Heralds unifying men. Re-Shephir recognizes her as a Lightweaver through similarities to what imprisoned her way back when. Re-Shephir doesn't understand everything, so the connection to the mass amount of stormlight might not have been made. Fear messes with rational thought too. I'm moving away from the idea that the pillar was part of her prison on my own, but just because the pillar still exists and she feared Shallan doesn't feel like enough evidence against it.