Kasimir

This is odd to me as my gut was no, this is a bad idea, stop trying to engineer the exe. Really not interested in distro guessing until we have more info. It's a Fifth game, one way or another, it'll be a cursed distro, Elim DBs and SBs absolutely possible because it's a Fifth game. This is the sick chullson who gave us Tyrian games with E!Seeker and no V!Seeker, and E!Coinshot. Once we have a couple of flips or more info from interactions, I'll be more willing to theorise. Saying this more as a caution that I wouldn't base too much on theorising right now. We just don't know enough. Not based on his flamboyant E!play, no. I'll admit his refusal to ask for a PH and insistence on sticking it out despite low activity pings me a little, because I know he enjoys E!play more than V!play. But one way or another, I don't really want to reason too heavily based on a SU. I also don't think that's what the Dustbringer is for - that's what a freakin' PH army is for. We have at least five PHs for this game: Stick, Aman, Wiz, Whysper, Violet. There is absolutely zero excuse for inactivity in this game of all games. I'd add TJ in this group - they should be resolved by the filter, and the PH system, and Fifth mentioned he'll use it by the second cycle of inactivity. Dustbringer is better off shooting the secondary exe if no one is cool with that player getting an ability, or shooting a suspicion, or a lurker to disincentivise that last as an Elim strat. Neither Exp nor TJ really fit the description of lurking under the radar. Bolding as this is a specific question I'd like answered. In my game (QF66), you expected the Elims to be among the RPers to try to gain the Signet. Do you expect the same behaviour here, i.e. Elims are engaging in Ideal-gaining activity? Thank you for helping me Frankly, your start pinged me a bit for the reasons JNV described, but my gut isn't fully on board with voting you for whatever reason, so I have been looking for more fuel for reads. Edited to add: Edited to add 2: PSA - if I'm dead next cycle, as is my usual wont, I'd suggest going back and looking at the players who are gunning Ideals. I think the voting and RP ideals are especially easily achieved publicly (less so for RP), and given Fifth Ideal Elims get an extra life, I think there's incentive to gun. It's not necessarily damning but I would take the pool of all players who ticked both checkboxes for this as a starting point as it's unlikely to be pure. I think there's still say under eight hours to go, so things may change before then, e.g. last minute Devo voting, but don't forget about the suspect pool next cycle! Current State of Reads: : My, my, this here Kasimir guy : Aeoryi, Araris : JNV, Mat, Wit : Archer???, STINK, Devo, Aman, TJ : Ravenclaw, Ash If I haven't suggested already, the Araris read actually isn't a bro read, though I can't discount bro goggles being involved.

With all due respect, I would appreciate one, but I kinda need reads or content more from the players I'm struggling to formulate a read on

Fair enough. Re-read notes/comments focused on: -Devo is the first to suggest arranging the second vote. Theoretically I'd like to V!lean this for proactiveness, but not fully comfortable doing so as I think Devo tends to be more mech-heavy when Evil. Not sure. It also doesn't feel fairly pro-Village, so I'm considering it a wash. (Pro.) -Five minutes later, Archer posts about the same concern but suggests not worrying about it because there's a lot of Ideal triggers. Objects in that vote-rigging can destroy the opportunity to generate information. But Archer also wants to see how people want to approach that. This is the post I sort of get a on because of thoroughly how uncontroversial it is. It's rather muted as a V!Archer start, if it is V!Archer. (Anti.) -Aeoryi is anti-engineering because of vote manip causing ties and ties are bad. (Anti.) Noting that this discussion is perpendicular to both Archer and Devo, and opens up a new line that's weird. -Side-note here that my V!read on Aeo is less based on perspectives voiced and more on vibe: I feel that E!Aeo would be less visibly hyperactive in thread because the doc would also be a decent outlet for energy. Again, possible that Aeo is just a powerwolf type Elim, but it's where I am rn. -Thoroughly unobjectionable statement from Ravenclaw, which itself should I think be properly objectionable. (Anti.) -Mat suggests actively using the second exe, reasoning the Elims will do it if we don't. In retrospect, I like it, and I think I like it because Mat is actively going against consensus here and I'm not sure that's a position E!Mat necessarily seeks to put on the table, keeping in mind the classic proposals E!Mat has run. So urgh. Mat. (Pro.) -Still feel both Archer's and Aeoryi's takes on ties don't really come from a perspective I'd consider a Village perspective. Doesn't make it Evil necessarily, but I regard it as more ? with Archer than Aeoryi. Side-comment: On further thought, I think it's better for the Elims than for us. We lose the flip, have to deal with an essentially flipless mess, and Elims are sufficiently/more coordinated such that they will have an easier time re-swearing than Villagers would. Not as convinced of this assessment. Let's be real - as much as everyone is anti-vote manip, I absolutely would vote manip or Windrunner shiz to save a strong Village read, and I believe any good Village player would do the same. Sure, we can interrogate that decision for consistency, but that's ultimately going to be the line of defence. It's just gonna be a thing. I agree the presence of vote manip is informative for us, but it does force us to play verification flip games, which isn't that fun. Also, @Archer - Notice here you meant to frame the question as a way of eliciting reactions. How does this sit with your read of Ravenclaw? -Ash -doesn't want a EoD mess as accidents can happen. (Anti) -Devo - doubling down, pointing out her proposal involved a margin, and the issue of not actually having a karking flip, thank you so much Devo. (Anti) Pro: Devo, Mat Anti: Aeoryi, Archer, Ravenclaw, Ash I am less wary of the pro camp (ironically) than the anti bracket. Of the anti bracket, I have the better read of Aeoryi. I am technically going back and forth about Archer - I suppose it's down to "I'd like to here more from <Archer, Ravenclaw, Ash>" territory. Stick principle again I suppose.

People are trying to consolidate on Aeoryi?

thank u for ur service @Fifth Scholar I noticed you did not commemorate the sacred festival of Rollovet, sir. In honour of Rollovet and Fifth, this November, may I propose: Edited to add: Me, watching Stick and Aman read this thread:

Ngl I like this siiiiigh. Feels like given the MatTunnel Thing, E!Mat would be more than happy to lean into a tunnel. Then again, MatTunnel wasn't a big thing people noticed in Szeth's LG either. @Devotary of Spontaneity, current reads? Can do a 2 V / 1 E if it's a struggle at this point in the game. @Archer - Have your views on Mat specifically shifted? @Ashbringer - If I asked for 1 V / 1 E, would you be able to do it right now? Sympathetic to the rust because I swear to god I took a break for three games (?) and suddenly I feel like I don't recall how to Village well at all. @Ravenclawjedi42 - Similar question. 2 V / 1 E, you can be wrong, it's ok, just 'where you stand rn.' If 2 V / 1 E not possible, how about 1 V / 1 E? @Matrim's Dice - Acknowledging you lean V on Raven and Wit, do you have a current E read? Still Exp? Keleran knelt and scratched in the sand. "I thought you said you were going to talk to people, Keleran," Ellu said, hands on her hips. "I'm talking to you," Keleran muttered. "People who aren't me, Keleran! You're supposed to work together with your squadmates!" Keleran groaned inwardly. That was the problem, he thought. So much expectation. So much obligation, you could hardly breathe for the weight of it. And fool him, he'd agreed, or his Words had been accepted, as Ellu had cheerfully informed him. Truth to be told, he'd thought she was a Voidbringer when they first met. But he hadn't known what Voidbringers were, back then. Hadn't known all that much, really. Choosing life, or death. It hadn't felt like much of a choice, when he'd put himself between Battarin and the whitespine. His hands had been shaking as he held the stick, but he'd some crazy idea that you couldn't back down, ever, or the whitespine would pounce. These Words are accepted, said a voice like thunder, and Keleran had thought he was dreaming it all up, until Ellu had said, "I'm so excited Keleran! You're going to be a Knight Radiant!" and then all of it had unravelled: the new set of expectations, the fact he was ill-suited for an order of warriors and apparent physical powerhouses, the way his father had seen his dream die before his eyes as he released Keleran to Callar and the Blackthorn's Coalition in Jah Keved. He never really thought about being in the same Order as Callar. As far as Keleran was concerned, they were night and day. Callar was everything a Stoneward was supposed to be: dutiful, essential. And Keleran was Keleran. It never helped, making the comparison. Too much weight on his shoulders. "I'm trying to work things out," he said, for Ellu's benefit. "See, here's Shay. I haven't really..." he bit his lower lip. "I haven't really felt right about her." "Yeah, you're really bad at talking to girls, Keleran!" "Thank you for your support, Ellu, please work with me here." He added a symbol for doubt next to the glyphs that spelled out Shay's name. "I don't know. I guess I should feel her enthusiasm is a good thing, but somehow I don't. And yet everything feels like it's built on quicksand." Ellu shook her head. "You were all never meant for this sort of lurking and spying," she said, sadly, and for a moment, Keleran thought she sounded so much older than her usual child-like self. "Radiants. Lightweavers, maybe. But that's the sort of thing Cryptics love. You were meant for the desperate moments, when someone had to step up, and do what's right. No matter the cost." "Ellu..." Keleran said. Helplessly. "I'm not a soldier. I'm really bad at it. I don't know what to do with this situation. Please pick someone else." "You aren't," Ellu said, readily. "But we don't need soldiers." "We do need soldiers," Keleran retorted, stung. "The Coalition is getting hammered in Jah Keved. We need enough Radiants on the battlefield. Callar is doing his best to bring everyone up to speed." He returned to scratching names in the dirt. Some of them were traitors, but how did Callar expect them to find them all? Keleran didn't know.

In this specific context, Pukamon (Digimon on top) is anyone I Village read or have a vaguely positive read on. Village being - you said you play mafia IRL right? Village = town/not-maf/non-wolves. Gizamon (Digimon on the bottom) is anyone I either Evil read or have a vaguely negative read on. I'd like to be more fine-grained but this is C1 so I am going to settle for a 'will vote' / 'won't vote' distinction in my reads for now. Edited to add: Part of me is wondering if Wit is pulling a FNG play but I also kind of feel E!Wit doesn't lurk like this without it being a calculated choice, so I am more willing to stick him in the Pukamon bucket still.

See (sorry Mat, this isn't so much @ you as a general thread thought thing) - I think everyone's been engaging with the orange, but I also agree with Mat on #2 as I might not necessarily want a secondary suspect to be empowered. I think where we differ is just that I don't feel all that much can be done about it without going back to exe engineering and consensus problems, with a side of cheap voting. (Too bad we aren't using crypto! ) I do notice on re-read that Mat doesn't disagree with it being potential easy cover for votes, and thinks that it can be called out, so our disagreements are probably largely practicability ones. I will say I like Mat's consistency here, but I respect Mat's E!play a bit too much to be willing to ascribe a read significantly. Sigh. Let's try again. Current state of thoughts: Recategorising this as the bucket of people I have any slightly positive read on and thus, at this current point in time, would not vote today: : Araris, JNV, TJ, Devo, Aeoryi, Wit, STINK (purely bro reasons this one sorry) Everyone not in the first bucket: : Archer, Mat, Ravenclaw, Ash, Exp Italics are negotiable. Raven's a solid null for me — haven't been able to get a good handle on them/their play, that's all. Honestly I don't know why I am hesitating here because theoretically I should be ok with Archer or Mat but my mind is also screaming internally at the idea of a dead thread >> With Mat, part of me is considering whether it's just a Villager tactical disagreement, which happens a lot, but I also don't really feel it. With Archer, it's just a nagging feeling about his play. Think I'm going to nap on this one. There's a tactical reason for relieving Exp but at the same time, that's more or less a toothless vote, and I'd rather not go there if it's not needed and trust Exp will take care of himself and the GM/IM will PH if necessary. P.S. Warning to people - be careful about double messaging. Two of my PM messages merged for some weird reason and IDG what happened.

Who then?

Question for you: are you able to give (for now, temporarily, go with gut or anything) - two players you think are Village (loyal KRs) and one player you think is a traitor?

Reasonable, then I don't care anymore

I thought he hasn't? He signed up to spectate QF68 but I don't recall him playing before. Anyone remember him?

Serious question. We willing to C1 a new player to this community? 'Cause if you're not going to and Wit is E, he knows it has no bite. And if you are going to...ngl, that's a you thing. I'm not really down with that one.

Why? I V!read you for now. It's definitely possible you could be deepwolfing, but I'm cool with a V!read for the moment. No strong read on Ravenclaw just yet, FWIW, and Maaaaat is making me doubt again. So not cool bro. Unless you're Village in which case it is Very Cool "Callar said there are traitors here," Ellu said, slouching on Keleran's knee. Tiny flakes of rock dust drifted through the air as she moved. Not for the first time, Keleran found himself wondering where they came from. "Probably," said Keleran. He tried to imagine what could make Radiants turn; what could make them decide to betray the rest of the Coalition. He almost laughed at himself. He wanted to run away from the front lines, wanted to be anything other than a Knight Radiant. No, he corrected himself. He wanted his old life back, throwing up at the sight of a bleeding soldier on the surgery table. Because Keleran hadn't been much of a surgeon either, but someone had to do it. "Well, we're going to find them, right?" she said, confidently. "I guess," Keleran let out his breath in a long sigh. "It's just..." "Just what?" "How do we find them?" Keleran asked, quietly. "And what do we do when we find them?" Ellu wrinkled her nose. "That's a Skybreaker question," she informed him. "Or a Windrunner question. We just need to work together to find them, and have some faith in our hearts, or we'll worry ourselves sick!" Keleran shook his head. He didn't think faith alone was going to cut it. But he saw what Ellu meant. The squad was going to have to work together, and that meant—doing all the things Callar seemed to expect them to do. Talking with others (and he hadn't the faintest idea why Phil Swift of all people expected him to be spending a great deal of time talking to the others when he had sword drill to word on) and trying to identify the traitors. Callar seemed resigned to the search. Keleran felt the same sense of resignation, and of obligation. He had to do something. They had to do something but the only person Keleran could start with was himself. He got to his feet. "We're going to find some traitors?" Ellu asked, and Stormfather, Keleran did not understand why the idea excited her so much. "That's Skybreaker levels of enthusiasm here, Ellu," he said, straight-faced. Silence. Ellu giggled. "You just cracked a joke! I didn't think you had it in you! Callar totally owes me snacks now!" Keleran pinched the bridge of his nose with the fingers of his free hand. "Are you...are you gambling with Callar? Why are you gambling with the Captain, please stop." "Why not?" "You're a menace." A determined menace, at that. "Yup, I am!"

Yeah, I'm not surprised. I think in general I am more willing to be wrong on C1, since I trust myself to either correct enough as things go on, or to be dead YOU SAID YOU'D NEVER MENTION THAT AGAIN Sorry - didn't mean deliberately disengage in the inactivity sense. What I meant was that you were deliberately ignoring that vote on you and engaging with just Aeoryi's posts because you're aware E!you often gets flak for tone in how you respond to votes on you. Agreed it was clearly a joke vote on you, but even so. I have been wondering if it's overcompensation, as E!you has definitely deliberately tried to hide your known issues before. I'm...not sure getting bogged down with Aeoryi is necessarily as V!indicative though, because Aeoryi's pushes can be a bit odd at times. But don't fully disagree here. People will do what they want with it. For all that focus on strategising and ties in the thread, I haven't been too bothered to engage because I really think it's not going to pan out. Village coordination hasn't been good historically, and a number of the voting/tie strats require broad consensus. So my whole point isn't about whether people are going to use the second vote or not. It's about making that the Thing To Do/We Should Do, which is what the whole discussion was about. And here, I think the issue is whether we're going to accept, in general, "I wanted X to swear an ideal because I V!read them" as an alright reason or not, and my concern is that it's an easy way to allow people to wash really bad votes but at the same time, cast cheap fear votes. You can argue it's a matter of contextual reading and I won't disagree but I also won't agree to just accepting it as generally a good strat because of dilution concerns.

Want It More - a shorthand description for players who are just noticeably more motivated and engaged with the game as one alignment or the other. I blame Aman for this one. Have you seen how much TJ struggles with RP? Edited to add: @Aeoryi - TJ joke aside, I agree, but that's something along the lines of 'if TJ suddenly shows up, and manages to gun RP all in one shot, that'd be grounds for me to revise my read' which is more or less what I was suggesting in the post.

Why not? It's a place to start. I'll add here in response to @Aeoryi's question - JNV read has actually weakened at this point, and I'm happy to leave them in a solid null territory. OG JNV read was based on the thing you guys didn't notice in Szeth's LG, which...well, JNV has acknowledged, and I think TKN might even had stated in a game prior to that. JNV goes inactive a lot more as Village. They just don't have WIM when Village, and have major WIM is Elim. Which is a rough tell to have because using it explicitly encourages inactive play. (Also polar opposite of me, but that's also a rough tell to have -.-) They even mentioned they were trying to fix it, but it wasn't happening at that point. In that sense, JNV not showing up, and especially not in response to pressure in a game with powerful Elim incentives to RP looked good to me, especially since they had the bandwidth to PM me but not threadpost. Can't really maintain that view in light of their current post, but probably washing it to null- for the moment until I check and recall whether they are this openly mercenary. Got slight LGThrenody vibes off that vote. I noticed TJ was more grudgingly on the ball in QF66 due to the powerful RP incentive, and I also think there's a tacit Elim incentive to gun Ideals, given they get an extra life at Fifth Ideal. I saw him lurking so he saw the thread, but didn't post or do anything. Agreed he could be busy IRL, but I'll ascribe a different read if/when he shows up. LBR, C1 V!reads ain't solid, they're more in the range of "I won't kill this guy" to "I won't help you kill this guy." Theoretically you should be willing to exe or let die any player you don't V read. This includes nulls. Fancy way of saying a thing Stick and I agree on, phrased that way for her amusement - if I don't remember you exist in the game, and I am a player who is engaged on a normal level, then you are at worst Evil (deliberately flying under the radar), and at best, a player I shouldn't care to see stays alive. I didn't pick up on Exp's one word post until Mat flagged it, which fit that thought/profile for me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Cycle's young and I gotta admit to getting a bad vibe read off Mat, actually. OG vote was a joke, but then it felt like Mat was deliberately disengaging, knowing people are aware of the fact he has a greater tendency to be oversensitive to votes on him when Evil. Also didn't really like the promotion notion - felt like it was providing cover for bad votes under the guise of 'oh I want this player to swear an Ideal.' Don't worry, I'm still open to voting you, depending on how I feel about your latest posts! Single player only from my understanding. I don't think expecting activity here is over-expecting, but that's my 2p. A number of players complained about low activity in QF68 too, and I'll be the first to agree it's off-putting and also makes it harder to work with Village-side. Agreed people are busy and have RL, but it's always the balance yeah. So I've sort of said why wrt the Stick Principle explanation, but my meta read actually skews the other way - E!Exp IMO plays a bit on the hyperactive and reckless side. He won't keep a dead thread alive, but he doubleposted in QF68 early on (which really should've had the effect of undermining his fakeclaim) just because he impulsively thought up a plan and decided to go with it. It's defeated if Exp is just out of time here, but barring that world, I'd be a bit surprised if he deliberately chose to try to play low profile here. And later thread mentioned the status update. That could be a defeater, yeah. I need to stop tonally V!reading people just because they post smh. Thank you. This is what I was getting at - the biggest issue is a no exe. I'd definitely rather not exe a Villager (my philosophy on this is known), so Mat's not wrong it's good in a V/V world, but the aim here is to find Elims. Sitting back and waiting for roles to power up is no bueno because Elims have a coordination advantage on us. This does mean using the exe (main Village tool) and good old grey cells too. Village first - role second. We need information and no flip is not really useful, especially if the player is controversial. Also reduces pressure on the Elims.

Relatable tbf.

I'm just going to say this upfront as I know JNV was a bit put-off by the punctuation dig: meta reads are part of how I roll on C1. Not everyone is good at post or thread reads and sitting back to wait for vote analysis or action results ain't ever an option. If you don't like them, don't vote with me and do your own thing. A good Villager should be doing that anyway. But by the same token, I'm not going to change my playstyle just because it doesn't meet your standards of play. I've said and will keep saying the very same thing on mech reasoning and will continue to say so because the mech reads elitism is annoying as all hell. Conveniently, I'm not particularly interested or fishing for a response from you. I put the reads for discussion, simpliciter, and so people know where I currently stand, that's it. Also not really sure why you feel the need to respond since I noted I leaned overall V on you, which is like, good for you regardless of your alignment? - probably the weakest proto V/null+ tier I have in stock - weakest proto E/null- tier - null

According to the Stick Principle, I'd agree, but meta leads me to lean against it. Net result is a null read. Feel it's a good way to let Elims get away with shoddy votes too easily IMO, e.g. I can easily leave my vote on you, and then if challenged, say "Sure, I figured Mat's a decent player so didn't mind seeing him get an extra Ideal." On the broader discussion, don't feel it's easy to ascertain prima facie Elim strat here. It's weird enough I could see it going either way, dependent on team composition. Not really interested in it either as I believe that a Village that can fail to remove Shards in a concerted, coordinated effort is not going to reap the benefits of any strategy that require organisation. So, what Devo said in a nutshell, except applying it to voting. Would RP more but already juggling NaNo is killing the mood for kraem like that. Anyway. -Gut to Aeoryi for opening. Feels like the sort of energy a new Elim would burn in doc. Moderated/defeated by unestablished range. -Gut to Archer for opening question. Feels more prone to fence-sitting than V!Archer, who cuts a harsher position to stir controversy and discussion. -Controversial but: gut to JNV and TJ. Won't explain this immediately, and this is extremely defeasible. Expecting to re-evaluate as the cycle becomes more active (it will, right? Right???) -I really want to read Devo but know Devo is more tricky than this so I should probably be cautious of that urge. -Gut to Araris for blatantly undisclosed bro reasons. I accept I will always want Araris to be V -Tempted to gut Ash for tonal reasons but IMO there's clearer signs of V!Ash and I'm waiting for them. -Have to flag that Aeoryi's comment on ties is ??? but so is Archer's. Struggling to see either point emerging from a Village perspective. Not sure they come from E!perspective either though so it's a wash (more blatantly for Aeoryi than Archer.) -If I ain't mentioned you, then

Mat happy brother's birthday! Allow me to release you from needing to carry non-existent Village analysis *For legal reasons, Heron Industries cannot guarantee Mat's alignment when flipped. No refunds allowed and lawsuits will be met with five knives in the back. Once flipped considered sold thank you. Edited to add: "You should talk to the others more," Ellu said, as she swam through the pebbles of the training yard. "I bet Callar would say the same thing!" Keleran rolled his eyes. "Callar's whole job is people," he said. "My whole job is what's inside people." He hesitated, then. It had been his whole job. That was the problem. Now, he didn't know what his job was. Certainly easy enough to look at someone like Callar, or the Windrunner Highmarshall everyone kept talking about, who, or so it seemed, lived for the battlefield. Everytime Keleran talked to Callar, or Aradon, or just anyone in the squad, he was reminded how much he didn't belong here. He wasn't a fighter. The spat between Phil Swift and Shay seemed to have subsided. Keleran heaved a quiet sigh. He'd wondered if he needed to take a look at Shay's wound, but Callar was right. They didn't need that either; they had Stormlight. Everything Marinta had to say about the Stonewards was that they were warriors par excellence, superb athletes, the sort that were in the thick of things. They weren't leaders, but they led when they had to. They were there. They did what was needed, and they never faltered, never doubted, never turned back. Everything Callar was. Everything Keleran wasn't. Keleran struggled to breathe. His head spun, and the world seemed to close in on him. Everytime he remotely thought about being a Knight Radiant, he thought he would drown from the weight pressing down on his shoulders. Giving up wasn't an option. But he knew his best wasn't good enough. Wasn't ever good enough. Something clattered on the ground of the training yard. Ellu was nudging his training sword at him. "I hate it when you practice," she said. "It's boring, and you hate it. But you're less sad, and less wound up about everything." He did hate it. But he didn't have a choice, did he? He glared at the training sword, and wished, not for the first time, that he was back in Shvekar, drowning in his brothers' shadows, quietly working to meet his father's expectations, because they weren't going to fulfill themselves. Wished that he'd been picked by anything other than a peakspren, because Marinta certainly seemed to like whatever the storms she was doing with her spren, and Keleran had the distinct impression nobody expected Marinta to be on the battlefield or in the thick of it. Storms, couldn't he have been picked by a cultivationspren? It felt cruel to think it, and impossible to utter. So he settled for ignoring Ellu, especially when she got all those ideas, and Ellu sulked and kept doing things like putting pebbles in his bath because he needed bath buddies.

Wise move Same tbh, though I've saved some links for next year.

Twelve more than you had yesterday!

Just call yourself a NaNo rebel, I believe it's traditional Imagine completing entire stories!

Thank you! Followed your advice, and they helped me out. Works perfectly now and saved me much stress Anyone blatantly closing tabs this Friday?