Kasimir

Yeah, sorry. This one can't be helped too much due to the fact it's a BT, which is meant for experimentation more than running actual games, and the small player size. Needing to kill one particular Elim is always a problem here because it means things can go real fast if the Village is on the right track, but I think the BotC ruleset can bring some interesting things to SE. To be honest, Devo asked me about this because how this works in the OG ruleset I'm adapting from is you don't randomise: as the GM you passively help the Elims out, or as Devo describes it, "you're encouraged to go with what makes for a 'better story.'" In this world, if Devo fakeclaimed Gleeman and you randed for her role for fake facts, I'm not supposed to RNG: I'm supposed to tell you that she is a Gleeman. Is this a better way of running? Maybe, I don't know. In SE, we generally dislike giving GMs too much latitude in terms of intervention and choice, and it's impracticable for me to be running every single decision past the IM for the game to proceed. I cleaved more tightly to this principle when running than the OG and I think it's a capital C Choice, arguably. In the case of drunkenness/poisoning, I'd be encouraged to just pick whatever is the Absolute Worst for the player, based on what's happening in the game. Again, GM latitude - that's something Drake and I were trying to avoid in this run. In a full game, I think that's fine. In a twelve hour game, kinda hard to do this without screwing someone's timezones over. But agreed. I'd be willing to have a Forsaken's fake role change, FWIW. I considered giving Devo the traditional three options, yeah. I'll put that on the table for patches. I think this again was where we went 'yeah this is so E!sided do we really dare to buff the Forsaken' which is sort of the dynamic that went down in the committee PM versus where to pitch the bar for Evil. At this point, yeah, I think we can say one shouldn't be too afraid to buff Evil as well as a definite conclusion from this run. I'll note FWIW that BotC allows private chats - it's just that the whole group knows who is conspiring together. This is to allow some Elim coordination, but also Village ones. Fair about the balance but I'm tempted to allow a limited/small number of Day PMs that have to be public. Issue with MR is that by the rules, you still have to break it into 24/24 cycles. There's only so much flexibility with the format. If you're going 24/24 anyway, you might as well just stick to your guns and call it a QF since it could end theoretically early if Village gets lucky. I think we could just increase it - Gossip could absolutely receive these, but add it to the pool. This is again where the shift to RNG has an influence, because if I were picking, you'd never get role/alignment on D1. Or I'd give you Darkfriend and Gleeman and call it a day. One more thought I had is that if I ever run this ruleset again, I'm probably going to throw out the Leviathan timeloop and pick some other Menace to reskin and run with, to keep things a tad fresh for the Village Some of these thoughts come from working with another player on a different community to help run her game, tbf, so I've had fresh thoughts coming off working to make this ruleset (in general) work in an SE context. It's on the GM Mastersheet - Mat blocked you, of course.

Special F for the true unsung hero of the game, @StrikerEZ the IM, who heroically fought through the messaging flood of BT4Gang: Striker bro, we are not so sorry

After-Action Report I'll be posting mine, Drake has his own thoughts which he will be offering. Before I do that, Drake and I would like to thank everyone for participating and request feedback. The point of a BT is to testdrive weird mech for use in a proper game. We have our thoughts on this, biut would also like to hear yours. To be upfront, we were testing a Leviathan type ruleset, where the timeloop hamstrung the exe, but also required Villagers to be more careful about what they wanted to push and what they didn't, due to the time limit. Balance/Distro Drake and I felt the game ended up being a tad V!sided in practice, but not overly so. This I think is counterintuitive because to most players, the ruleset appeared E!sided, and both Drake and I had concerns about whether X was enough - Drake's back-of-the-napkin models suggested even two cycles would've been fine, which bears out here in practice. We hesitated a bit about whether to go for X=3 or X=4, but X=3 felt like a decent choice in the end, given how it played out. We probably could've dialled back on the info roles just a bit. Even with Pattern degradation, drunkenness, and poisoning in play, players still treated info results as prima facie plausible and used them to guide reasoning. This functionally meant that all the sources of uncertainty ended up having a small net effect. This matches with Drake's and my experience elsewhere, but is also a good thing! This means players do not trust scans blindly, and probably shouldn't anyway. RNGesus really had it out for the Elims there, with Aeo's D1 scan actually being very rough for them, but in general, it wasn't overly so - that same Day, Archer was considering asking if Devo was the Forsaken, meaning that what really drove the Village was some solid play with regard to their roles. Overall Patches/Thoughts 1. Something Devo and I differed about in Committee was whether duplicate roles were permissable. Devo was of the view they shouldn't be; I was concerned as I felt the Elims just didn't have that much space to hide in, and LG92 demonstrated that Elims generally struggled with the pressures of massclaim environments. At some level, the stakes of the ruling was about either setting a high bar for the Elims to match up to or die, or taking away one sort of tactic (ccing) from the Village. I do think it's interesting that Devo and I have swapped positions after this game: I think the 'no duplicates but Forsaken knows one role not in the game' ruling is fine; Devo is reconsidering no duplicates. I'm not sure but FWIW think allowing duplicates is fine too. 2. I didn't like Raven getting blocked for declaring his shot, which he had to do. A really easy patch of Raven's role was to make it a Day shot instead of Night. That way, the Veteran can still be shut down at Night and the next Day, but can't be shut down just by declaring the shot. Actually, Raven's role was meant to be a Day vig all along. Not swapping it back to Day shooting was a mistake because the game starting on a Night was a last-minute change. 3. The Watchman is particularly cursed to make drunk. Drake thought of a better patch but by that time, Wiz had received results, so we felt it was better not to go there at all. The solution here is to roll category, then RNG for a player not in that category each time. See spec doc for more explanation. 4. I'd like to make Gossip less swingy if I could. With facts being randed across four categories (targeted/targeting/alignment/role), it's harsh for Devo as she has a 1/2 chance of being sussed, and a 1/4 chance of being identified as the Forsaken, even with the shelter of one false fact and one true. As it's rough to find other facts within the context of a forum game, I'm considering making the Gossip act once every two cycles, or something. Not sure. Interested in recommendations here. 5. Pattern degradation didn't really play that big a role in causing problems, which was as designed - it's more meant to add a touch of uncertainty into the game, rather than cause more problems for the Village. We had no Pattern degradation at all C1, and on C2, Aeo got what was arguably an upgrade to Thief-Taker. Whether this will hold true in a longer game is unclear. 6. I think Elims struggled a bit with meta here. It's clear that Mat wasn't hesitant to claim here, but he was hesitant to talk about his scans - probably partial lessons from LG92. The split in attitude is actually what drove both Archer and Hael onto him and they never let up. Devo then became suspicious by association. I get that Elims wanted room to manuever in - it's just that it caused them quite a bit of suspicion from Villagers in the process. 7. Archer's and Mat's lying sprees were actually hilarious Mat made Archer drunk N1 and then couldn't work out why Archer had correctly scanned Devo on D2. As it was, Archer just completely lied about having scanned Devo, and then was confused by his results when he asked on D2 if the Forsaken was in <Hael, Raven.> (JNV had been made drunk by Mat, so the answer Archer got was truthful: 'No.' We don't know if this might have changed the game completely if Devo hadn't been exed.) Meanwhile, even had Mat decided Archer was lying, he couldn't call Archer on it, because he'd have to admit lying about Archer In short, I'm just going to quote HBO Chernobyl here: "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." 8. Thinking of allowing PMs, but requiring players to declare who they are PMing in thread. The upside of this patch would mean we can have an Elim doc back, allowing Devo and Mat to better coordinate and strategise. Recommendations I think this game format can be run as a MR or a QF, with the suggested patches. Even with alternating Day/Night cycles in a QF, if it ends in six 24-hour cycles, I'm not sure it matters. I guess it could be an LG as well, but it'd need more players to guarantee a higher X value. I'm uncomfortable with it on the grounds the game can end really early if the Forsaken is exed. I would lean QF but MR is doable as well. Once again, thanks to everyone for playing and helping us out, thanks to my bros for helping co-GM and IM this clowncar on stilts, #BT4gang best gang!

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Aftermath: Memories of Spring Night fell on the village of Helgen, with the gentle rain and the soft mist. Blood splattered across the cobblestones; old Sargon, dead at last, and the travelling gleewoman, Kalenir, who had named herself Osan'gar. She had offered to use the endless time loop, the bubble of Evil, to turn each and every last villager within Helgen into a shadowspawn of their choosing, and had hesitated, surprised, when the Village Wisdom, Bladdar, had screeched about not having enough time for this because he had to go take a piss and whacked her over the top of the head with a club. This had started the frenzy as the villagers of Helgen descended on Kalenir and old Sargon both, beating them to death. Blood on the cobblestones; mingling with the rain. The mist crept on in, as it always did, promising oblivion, promising absolution from the misdeeds of the day. In the morning, the sun rose on the village of Helgen. Overnight, the rain had turned into a gentle coating of snow, blanketing the street and thatched roofs. The air was crisp, cool and clear, with the green scent of pine boughs and the promise of Swovan Night and feasting to come. You stare at each other, amazed and barely able to believe it. The Forsaken is dead. Helgen is saved. For now. Always for now, for there are no permanent endings, not as the Wheel of Time turns. As the crisp winds swept across the village green, they brought with them the memories of spring. Spring, a time for joy and new beginnings. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings or endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning. Kalenir / Devotary of Spontaneity was exed! She was the Forsaken! The Villagers of Helgen have won! Thanks to everyone who signed up to help Drake and myself test this thing! Thanks to @StrikerEZ for being the group slacker with me, and @DrakeMarshall for being the cool GMing bro. BT4Gangchat best chat Please do not post in this thread until the second post is up.

Why? I think TKN is a decent shout here too. I'd never skip here. I think the point of the full forty-eight hours is to get it right, and I'm suspicious of this response as I don't feel it comes from a Village mindset. If I block correctly, we can have second lylo. If I don't, we go to a coinflip, which is not the worst but not the best either. In short, avoid the wrong choice here. Edited to add: I'd understand if this is an F3 given the landscape, but this is an F4 which means the answer is less clear-cut here. Even then, no thank you, my job is to get it right. STINK is a player who signed up as a PH. STINK's philosophy of voting is that a vote is simply an 'I want you dead' button. Doing reasoned analysis is a sufficient condition for pressing it. Wanting the player dead is a necessary condition for pressing it. You and you alone decide when you want to press it and what for - no one else gets to tell you, because it's your vote and the basic premise of the game. Sure, you can argue there are normative ideals governing how one Should Play The Platonic Game, but I still want you dead, too bad ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ In general, I think STINK voting is the best response to an obdurate player. If they're not interested in giving good faith responses that aren't circular in reasoning and therefore justification, you're under no obligation to seek higher normative ideals when choosing to press the button. (I'm aware of Illwei's views on Villager confidence - I don't feel they're worth anything at this point because she metascrews. It's okay for a C3 read and unacceptable at lylo.) I have asked myself this and I don't think it's constructive. In part because thread consensus and the Plan yesterday was that I protect myself in order to make sure I make it to the next cycle and can try to stop a kill here to buy us more time. In part, I suppose, because neither of them wanted to concentrate the kill on me. In part because, as I see it, if you think there's a deliberate reason I'm kept alive, this likely rules out TKN and to a weaker extent, Illwei. Given my E!Illwei credences, and my history of strong clashes with Illwei, it is extremely unlikely E!Illwei chooses to keep me alive here. She isn't that delusional. (Okay, screwy options, but if E!Illwei, then V!me and V!you go against her. Is she expecting to persuade V!TKN here? TKN isn't that kinda guy.) Agreed, this is perhaps diluted by the fact the plan is for me to self-protect, but if we bracket that as you ask, then that's the strong conclusion. Then we can even go for the NKA option. We have two deaths: Aeo and Araris. I feel that Araris is more likely the Elim kill here - Aeo is likely Coffee's kill. Probably because Aeo is least in the suspect pool, and Coffee is helping the last Elim out (or a classic mercyshot.) The thing is, I feel like in most worlds, I'm TKN's shot of choice here, if not a little earlier. I'm the player he always wants to take down for whatever reason, and TKN is into aggressive control/noise kills. TKN suggesting I self-protect is kind of whack because he didn't need to do that. I also lean a bit towards Araris's views on TKN, but would need to re-read the cycles first to confirm my views on TKN. Aeo and Araris aren't really TKN shots. Maybe Aeo, but not necessarily Araris. You could argue given TKN was locked onto Araris and never bothered to revise his theory, Araris is a decent shot for him since he wasn't likely to get that ML off. But not sure. Araris feels like a tougher shot for Illwei but I think Araris's last post makes him appear Village, and Araris was sussing Illwei before he died and before the Coffee v. me clash derailed the previous trains. It's clear E!Illwei never shoots you, and with TKN's theoretical low activity bracket status, maybe. I think you shooting Araris is an eh choice. You had accepted V!TKN, meaning a TKN shot was probably better. I don't think you said much about Araris but still had him in PoE. Maybe you expected credence revision off his last post, IDK. tldr; there's no way in hell anyone shot anyone in the <you, Illwei> pool today. Aeo was probably dead, and one in <me, TKN, Araris.> Araris over TKN is a bit of a Choice that makes me squint at TKN, but there's a bit more of a negative connection to Illwei there than you. The most Illwei has going for her are all negative arguments, and I'm not a fan of negative arguments in lylo. Your thread presence diminished after C1-C2, which makes it much harder to solidify a non-provisional read at lylo.

I'm not a fan of her last cycle and feels she metascrews enough to want to avoid giving easy credit here wrt her C3 in light of C4. On some level you can consider this a laconic rejection of her assertion of where the burden of proof should be—if you aren't interested in helping the Village make sure this shouldn't come down to a coin flip (on the assumption I once again fail my save), then I'm not interested in how you think I should assess you. Am probably OK with V!you but would still reread once more to be sure. Ironically, would you have killed Araris? Not interested in moving my vote anytime soon however. STINK is based and wise on the purpose of voting.

Cool. Then I believe STINK's answer here is correct: Illwei.

Do you believe the default read ascribed a player should be Village or do you believe they should have to demonstrate they are Village?

I see JNV's and Ash's MOs all over the NKs, potentially up to their deaths so yes. I struggle with how much they can swamp a kill MO from you or Neil. I am not willing to completely ignore TKN here but don't feel it adds up in general. Why should I V!read you?

Do you believe Mat a prophet?

@Winnie the Pookla I know what you said but you can't tell me self-protecting so you die here was worth the cost Porch Bro Illwei pending rereads.

This - again, relative credences, right? Coffee and I aren't of the same alignment. This is clearly a V/E or V/SK situation here due to the nature of the role and counterclaims. In an E!Coffee world, the SK knows their walking wincon is right there on the train, because they know one of us is Evil rather than the SK. Theorising Illwei for other Elim here fwiw.

If someone, for whatever reason, is killed at Night, the write-up would announce this as per normal, before the player resurrects.

If someone is shot at night, there should be a flip before they resurrect, Veteran or otherwise.

Relevant players receive success notifications when their action goes through.

This is gonna merge isn't it. Turn over everyone! Stand by for rollover drills. Oh wonderful thanks Aeo I don't gotta merge it. Oh and thanks Raven.

I think Americans have a rule I'm allowed to not answer incriminating questions? Yeah. Lemme just get rollover processed so we can keep it as smooth running as possible. Drakebro is best wingman but I'm supposed to not be the group slacker here

Don't ask me whether I'm sober enough to keep flying this thing Drake is my copilot he's a 200% upstanding citizen we'll be fine dw

Oh ffs I kept looking for ookla and raven rip me ok thanks wiz lemme get around to processing everything

I can't promise I'm sober but...yeah okay I can't @ Raven can somebody do this for me and tell raven to announce shot in all bold all caps and @ me he doesn't have to wait

Aeo, with all due respect, I would like you to take a moment to consider the appropriateness of comparing frustration over a forum game to dealing with—even now—ongoing and lasting trauma from surviving abuse. I am better now than years before but this doesn't mean I can't specifically have that trauma triggered. I don’t think it’s an appropriate comparison and I don’t wish to continue this conversation further.

You have no idea how much cursing/venting on this the IM has been listening to.

Does the exe precede the kill though? I feel like Aman and I have been asking this question ad nauseum/ad infinitum and don't ever recall Mat saying anything about this one way or another. @Ookla the Destined please. Edited to add: Sorry, nevermind, he did answer it, I'm tired. The SK kill will still go through. @Winnie the Pookla @Ookla the Bald and essentially, it does boil down to a major Lurching IKYK which...sigh. I will try my best. But yeah, I'm also still convinced Coffee is the best answer here. Am waiting for Neil to get online in light of Illwei's anomalous response but believe this is helpful for the suspect pool overall if we have to go into a further cycle - probably more so if Illwei decides to apply the brakes here. As a non-game relevant aside, as many SE players know, I survived an abusive relationship and spent a few years after that in recovery. Part of this was behind the AG8 clusterchull with Aman and I hitting each other's triggers hard. I say this as a statement of fact that I understand and acknowledge gaslighting and emotional manipulation are part of the game, and that different players have different limits/moral principles, but kindly back the f off because I will never not be triggered by people who resort to gaslighting and emotional manipulation referring to me as 'their hero' to score game points. I want nothing to do with this, such people, or respect from such people. It disgusts me on a visceral level. I am still incandescent with rage about this, and I will refuse to further interact if this last boundary is disrespected. Go emotionally manipulate and gaslight elsewhere or at others in the thread. But do not, ever, dare to presume to refer to me as 'your hero' cynically - I want nothing of this taint.

Fair. I do want to point out though that in the world Coffee isn't the SK, the actual SK is going to be putting the brakes on this exe as best as they can. Because the second we successfully exe Coffee, they lose. Us exeing E!Coffee here is their losscon. I do think the reactions here can be worth analysing or at least illuminating. Oh?