Kasimir
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Everything posted by Kasimir
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Ah, well. S'okay guys. No blood, no foul, and this subtlety thing's pretty storming hard, eh? Guess I got to work on that >> Alas. No harm done, I'm figuring. I just figured it was no bad idea to make some progress on tracking down the Gyorn as well as interrogating Cultist suspects. Once again, we can do all the things, after all Edit: Formatting error, I'll recolour when off mobile. Edit 2: And finally, the colour's back!
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So much for being closed-mouthed about my reasons, huh? Alright, Kipper, you win Ren and I have suspected for some time that there is a second Dula. It's more a hunch than anything, partly to do with player numbers and the way Hreo phrased responses to some clarifications about the Dula and love triangles, both to me and pre-game (for the latter.) If there is a second Dula, we've narrowed them to the set of <M'Hael, Aonar/Wyrm, Claincy, Karlin, Seonid, Meta.> This is the set of people who have never been voted on. For obvious reasons, we may want to exclude Meta from there, which is why he is at the back of the priority list. Since the M'Hael started with poison, I had hoped to quietly test the two likeliest candidates--Wyrm and Claincy--and try to clear two people (Dula #2 and yourself) at one shot. I guess that wasn't really gonna happen, huh? Edit: I should clarify that the overall set is not in terms of priority/likeliness. Meta was put at the end, though extremely unlikely, mostly as an afterthought and as part of a desire to be thorough.
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Much appreciated, Kipper. Thank you very much
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I'm trying to follow the implications of your reasoning here. So, by your own admission, you're following the playstyle of someone who betrayed the Village and crossed over to play as an Eliminator for lulz. This is the precedent you are using as justification for your actions. You are, in effect, claiming that like Gamma, you have decided to play against Team Arelon. Is that it? Because I gotta say, that pretty much sounds like an upfront admission that you've decided to go off and be an Eliminator, no matter what your initial PM from Hreo said. First, if such a person does exist, please provide your link to the source post. And then I'll leave it to them to defend their reasoning as I cannot speak for whether they, too, perform the same conceptual conflation you are still making. Talk without links is cheap, and in the long press of the game, it can be easy to misattribute what someone said to another person. I myself have accidentally done that with Kipper. And Kipper: I know this sounds strange, but could I ask if you would be so kind as to demonstrate your 1337 Keeper powers by putting that secret vote on Claincy please? Then we can confirm you on the non-Gyorn list, for one.
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We can pretend I did not ninja you, if it makes you feel any better Also, they're just technical terms because I don't trust myself to remember the actual symbols and truth tables correctly. Yes, I'm doing advanced formal logic...but that doesn't mean I'm not completely pants at it
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Sorry, I ninja-ed you there when I realised I shouldn't have used the bi-conditional and should've stuck to the simple conditional. This happens when you do too much modal logic and Graham Priest: your basic propositional logic starts to get funky
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Interesting insinuation. I'll give you a A+ for rhetoric, a B- philosopher's disapproval because rhetoric cannot replace effective reasoning. Are you trying to insinuate that Wilson and Meta have "deliberately gone out of [their] way to screw over [their] own side?" When did that happen and how? Call the presses! And here, you've made a glaring conceptual conflation. I am against voting without reasons. It is perfectly obvious that players may have reasons but choose to withhold them for strategic purposes. Meta did that. Storms, our Almighty GM, Hreo himself did that--in the AG. And as far as I'm concerned, I've said I do have reasons and will happily agree to be more forthcoming at a later time. Now, it would be hypocritical if I didn't expect to be called on it, as the distinction is unobvious, particularly to those who do not have access to my reasons, when in play. However, your point isn't about any of that. Your point is merely claiming that I am contradicting my own principles and there is something strange in that. My rebuttal is that it is therefore inaccurate reasoning to assume I am contradicting my own principles. I am not. That criticism lacks bite. In fact, you mustn't have been paying very much attention to the thread, huh? Twice, a vote vanished on me. Once from Kipper, and once my own vote. I could not have been a Keeper as there was no extra vote appearing in the tally yesterday. Like it or not, I am the Dula, darling xoxo Well, I'm not the only one who would like to hear from Elantris. Don't suppose one of our Seon-holders has a direct line? And it's interesting you credit that view to me since I specifically credited the M'Hael with pointing it out to me. He noted that since a conversion external to Elantris happened, either Luckat must be the Odiv, or you cannot be the Gyorn. Now: In strict terms of propositional logic, the two statements are not logically equivalent. Fortunately for us, because we know of the Gyorn's targeting restrictions, they do conveniently come out equivalent: to say that either Luckat must be the Odiv or you cannot be the Gyorn is therefore equivalent in this case to saying if and only if you are the Gyorn, Luckat must be the Odiv. Edit: Ninja-ed by the M'Hael. Alas. Such is life. Edit 2: In retrospect, I would not represent the logically equivalent statement with a biconditional. I think I'd stick to the simple hook since it's obvious there could be cases where Luckat is the Odiv yet Bort not the Gyorn.
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My reasons are my own, Wyrm-cyning. I do not expect to be followed in them, and they will become readily apparent with the passage of time. For now, I prefer to hold my peace as one never needs unsay that which has not been said. (The bit where I'll look like a right fool if I'm wrong in this can pass unspoken. ) I will say this: it's nothing to do with the Gyorn list, but a completely separate matter. Just a hunch.
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I'm going to say, read Vasher, supply Rincewind, and elect Trell, even though I don't know who that is. Time to move this one along. Adolin, Renarin, and Thorin Oakenshield.
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The rank 'half-breed' seems to have been changed to 'Noble-Blooded'. I didn't get to see the threshold, but I'm guessing from Rubix's post that it should be the same. To be clear, The epic Epic is Noble-Blooded at rep 17.
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As promised, the belated but updated list for today: Confirmed Non-Gyorns 1. Kas [Dula & Convert] 2. Ren [Elantrian] 3. Neo [Elantrian] 4. Wilson [Queen & Convert] 5. Luckat [Convert] 6. Meta [if carrying out intricate con, would have to be Cultist and therefore not the Gyorn. Otherwise: is Priest.] 7. *Twei [cleared by Meta] 8. *Mek [cleared by Meta, outed by Maili] 9. **Kipper [outed by Maili, might be nice to get his role proven.] 10. **Bort [tentatively excluded; would require Luckat to be Odiv, (ht M'Hael).] 11. **Alv [Elantrian, tentatively excluded until confirmation if poisoned.] Gyorn suspect pool: M’Hael, Jain, Clanky, Dow, Araris, Piff/Em, Claincy, Ostrich, Karlin, Aonar/Wyrm, Seonid, Wonko/Sart Odiv suspect pool: Luckat, Wilson, Kas. And I'm going to put a vote on Wyrm. For this, I am truly sorry, brother. I would appreciate it if no one else follows me in doing so. Edit: If someone poisoned Alv, we'd be much appreciative if you stepped forward. This would help me in tracking my ongoing list of Gyorn suspects. Meanwhile, back to our daily routine of lynchings and finding the Cultists... Edit 2: Edited the Meta entry at the M'Hael's suggestion.
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1. The Canon of Medicine – Avicenna 2. The Method of Medicine (Kitab at-Tasrif) – Abulcasis 3. The Virtuous Life – Rhazes [compilation of Rhazes’s medical knowledge] 4. On the Fabric of the Human Body (De humani corporis fabrica) –Vesalius 5. Compendium of Materia Medica (Bencao Gangmu) – Li Shizen Since I don't have a great question off the top of my head, let's just bend the rules slightly and pass it on to Glamdring since he already has a decent question prepped (Even if I can't answer it WLIU )
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Funny you mention that... To the Gyorn: Edit: Finally got the spoiler tags to work right!
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Noted and good catch. I'll add the adjustment to tomorrow's list.
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Yes, and thanks!
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Your hint about the mundane things helped. I went back to 'the tool of the trade', and reflected that a Shardblade sounded a bit weird when thought of as a tool. Okay. So this one took me a while, and it's going to be far, far easier than the boast that captured our attention for quite a while, but here it is: I am the wolf-son fettered with word-chains, Whose sharpened fangs gleam in bloody battle Where I have surpassed Stonesinew in valour. I have waded deep in the throng and won free By the strength of my arm, with nothing but the garments of war to defend me. Of the wound-thorn many are the songs sung of my skill. I have fought foes without the spear-storm, in the tight circle Where one sits in judgement. I have wagered all and prevailed. With strategem, I have outwitted foes who sought to deceive me, arrogant within their carapaces. I am the scion of rulers of men, the bright shield who defends the one who forsakes glory for the lord of kings. I am the exultation of the crash of spears, the battle-son, the unyielding tower, the vessel of blood-fury. I have slain the lying wyrm whose forked tongue dripped poison in the lords’ ears. Name me heart-judge, the knower of men, and lover.
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Honestly? No storming idea. The same way we always do, I guess. Discussion and elimination. I've talked to Hreo about this but poison cannot be used to reveal roles. If hit with poison, the Gyorn still ends up in Elantris. (Which makes sense, flavour-wise.) Basically, the main person able to find the Gyorn and the Odiv is pretty much the Priest, which is why I guess we had two of them. But as I said, a process of elimination can help us here. All converts and people cleared by Priest scans cannot be the Gyorn. The Odiv can only be a convert. That gives us two non-overlapping pools of (surviving) people to look at. We may as well talk about it a little now, since there's time. And then get back to the matter of the Cultists. For those who would prefer circumspection about Meta's vocation, I've used asterisks to mark those cleared by Meta. You can simply remove these people from your cleared pool. Confirmed Non-Gyorns 1. Kas [Proven Dula, and therefore cannot be the Gyorn.] 2. Ren [Elantrian] 3. Neo [Elantrian] 4. Wilson [Queen, cleared by confirmed Priest] 5. Luckat [Convert] 6. Meta [if he's carrying out an intricate con, he cannot be the Gyorn, since that would require him to be a Cultist.] 7.* Twei [Cleared by Meta] 8. *Mek [Cleared by Meta, outed by Maili.] 9. **Kipper [Outed by Maili]--At this point, I'd note that it may be good to ask Kipper to use his epic Keeper powers to place a vote somewhere. If we can confirm him as a Keeper, this would effectively confirm him as a non-Gyorn role. Gyorn suspect pool: M'Hael, Jain, Mek*, Kipper**, Clanky, Alv, Dow, Araris, Piff/Em, Claincy, Ostrich, Karlin, Aonar/Wyrm, Seonid, Wonko/Sart, Twei*, Bort. Not substantially thinner. But as conversions go on, the Shaod wreaks its damage and with the Cultists dead, we may need to start relying on proving roles to cut the pool down even further. (I suppose we could start with most of the Cultists dead, but I generally dislike the idea of outing roles when Eliminators are around. Must I really say that again? >>) Odiv suspect pool: Luckat, Wilson Thankfully, this is much smaller. We're just going to have to keep a very sharp eye on them and apply discussion. While a second conversion would be a sign that there is an Odiv, I suspect that we will likely not get that warning sign until very late in the game. Consequently, although we don't even know if there is an Odiv at the moment, it's good to keep that in mind. - On a strategic note: 1. Please, if you have a Seon, remember to declare an heir! Let's not have another case like Hufflepuff, where both Seon and person goes down together. That's not helpful to anyone. You don't have to pick someone cleared, just pick someone you trust. 2. If the holder of Seon Ien has so far failed to come forward for scanning, it seems to me to suggest that Ien has, in fact, gone to a Cultist. 3. Guys, can we not concentrate Seons in one person, please? If you have more than one Seon, please consider passing it on. Right now, the Shaod is hitting one person at a time. Let's not put all our eggs in one basket since communication with Elantris is essential. If you go down to the Shaod, so do your Seons, unless we get lucky and Elantris gets restored. 4. Other Seon-users, I'd appreciate it if one more contacts Elantris during the days and reports to the thread, just in case. As mentioned, I have given away my Seon, so I may not be able to do so any longer. Thank you. Edit: Color editor Awakened my text, apparently. Edit 2: I can probably just post a running update of this list each cycle. Even if the Derethi aren't a current priority, probably good to keep an eye on them. Or, as Mek says--"We can do all the things. That is just what is going to happen." Edit 3: Okay. Not really feeling all that well today, and I'm going to have to take meds that will knock me out. For that reason, I may be missing the rest of the Night. Just in case: Ren, with regard to our conversation: I've narrowed it down to one of these--<M'Hael, Wyrm/Aonar, Claincy, Karlin, Seonid, Meta> in order of likeliness.
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Well, then, Thomas. Ask Hreo if a player's vote on themselves really counts. Scrutinise the tallies carefully to make sure there are no holes for me to have made a Keeper vote. And it would be the greatest of narcissisms to be Lovers with myself. I am the Dula. Kolo?
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I'm going to make two guesses. Lirin, or Lin Davar.
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Gah, overslept, thanks to work. Will go through the rest of the thread in a bit, but first, I have the morning report to do... This is the morning report from Elantris: 1. Bort has finally broken the Silence. Meta continues to scan him tonight. 2. Meta has scanned and cleared Mek. We've been sitting on the results for pretty much the same reason Ren and I sat on the results of the Neo scan. 3. Neo's thoughts are that the people who aren't saying much are just basically providing great places for Cultists to conceal themselves. 4. Ren would like people to stop obsessing about past playstyle. According to him, playstyle will differ from game to game based in the strategic needs of each game and RL. It's not really all that good at picking out genuinely suspicious people. This is Kas, reporting delayed from Elantris, may the Maker help him because he needs sleep... - Edit: Sart, Meta would like to check in if you still plan to follow through.
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I generally score INTJ on tests, but have been known to score INTP as well on occasion--including during the fateful test we took to get sorted into our classes in secondary school. Unfortunately, they thought it'd be a great idea to put an I in a class of full-blown Es. Best four years of my life. Considering I'd rather hide under the furniture at parties, or when put in charge of a group of people, I'm probably very strongly I. I have my own qualms with personality tests (not least with so many aspects of how they're set up), but eh, they're interestingly fun, at least
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Silence Montane?
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...Wow, after doing up this list, I can't help but feel as though this series were as bloody as ASOIAF o.O Name five medical texts that were published pre-nineteenth century.
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Quick amendment in: there was a slight miscommunication between myself, Meta and Ren. (See: Chinese Whispers.) Ren had bolded Ostrich's name in the list that Meta sent on to me, and Meta had interpreted it as Ren being especially suspicious of Ostrich. Ren is not. He indicated Ostrich as he is very much against how egregiously inactive Ostrich has been in this game. I'm a little unsure of how the M'Hael's plan is supposed to work, though. There are some inconsistencies, I notice. First: Got it. Meta is diabolically using reverse-psychology. This explains why he has, in fact, explicitly asked people to avoid Following the Cop. Naturally, he believes this will be an immensely successful strategy in a game where people have repeatedly cautioned against relying simply on the Priests and failing to discuss. Indeed, Meta is a cunning man. Second: So, my question is: which way? You can't have it both ways. If you think this is a QF7 ploy, then Twei and I are both villagers. If this isn't, then that seems to erode the basis of plausibility on which you have constructed this possibility--through appeal to prior cases, as this can no longer be a legitimate prior. Furthermore, this raises another question: on what basis do you trust Twei? In fact, how many Eliminators do you figure there are? 6 at the very most, I'd say, and that's if we go with the usual ratio. I'd rather go with 4 or 5. So say you say that Meta and I are both Eliminators. Not only have we sacrificed Winter, we've put 2 extra people on the line. I leave it to you to decide if we are strong players. I would rate Meta highly but not myself. At one blow, we'd lose half our team, if not more. What is Meta gaining from this? Yes, it has happened before. What do we gain? A gamble is pointless if you do not gain something concrete. Is Meta guiding mislynches now? It is highly unlikely, I submit, that another high-calibre player is on this putative Eliminator team. So, we're throwing away our strongest player? Isn't that needless? Gaining a pinch-hitter for Winter would have been no bad trade, especially if that introduced Wyrm or Sart to the team! And clearing people does not work as well in a game with a conversion faction! Having cleared me is no guarantee in this game. I know that. Anyone who has been paying attention to the rules knows that. Just look at what the Gyorn cleverly did: they struck Wilson, knowing that anyone confirmed by Meta who was converted could still be an Odiv. They're cleared of being a Cultist but not of being an Odiv. For that reason, it is still difficult to trust them! There is only one safe role in this game and that is the Priest. Anyone can become an Odiv if they get converted. Just because there is no second conversion does not mean there is no Odiv. I'll say it until I'm blue in the face and no one will listen to me. People still do foolhardy, reckless things like roleclaiming in Seon PMs or trying to reveal their roles to scanned people. Do you want Meta to reveal the roles of the scanned in the thread? Would you prefer to hand over information to both the Gyorn and the Cultists, then? Almost no one in here has been reckless about role reveals! Wilson only countenanced it in the case of the vote manipulations because we suspect the Prince/Princess is a Cultist! I strongly condemn what Maili did and I consider it both criminally irresponsible and a breach of trust. My stance on role reveals has always been this: even if you are a Citizen, telling people you are a Citizen allows Eliminators to rule out one person who could've been a Priest or Jindo. Mass role reveals do not help us. Only reveal roles if it's information you don't mind people cutting out your guts with. Last: You tell me what there was to fight. Meta had volunteered to go to the slaughter the next day if Winter was innocent. Nothing in this game can stop a lynch. What would the Eliminators do, turn out in full force to save Meta then, handing themselves over to us? How was Winter going to defend herself against a claimed scan? There was absolutely no way. It was her word against Meta's, and quite frankly, Meta's not the sort of player you lynch just to see if he's telling the truth about Winter. She knew that. Anyone would know that. The writing was on the wall. And clearly, you haven't really been listening to what Araris noted about how Winter therefore effectively shut down discussion and any opportunity for her comrades to inadvertently reveal themselves in discussion. If they even had been doing so in the first place. I advise you to refer to LG3 or LG7 if you want to see how Seeker reveals have typically panned out. It is never good strategy to lynch the Seeker claimant, period. And in this sort of game, had Meta lied, he would have no escape. Granted, this doesn't deflect the possibility Meta and Winter were both Eliminators. But you suggest your argument is motivated by the fact it is strange Winter went quietly to the lynch. I am pointing out it isn't strange; it was just the only move left in a series of pretty bad options. As a quick summation: M'Hael's arguments are fundamentally based on two factors: first, plausibility. For this, he appeals to precedent in QF7 to suggest that Meta is pulling a Beetle (for those who don't follow, the type of gambit M'Hael is talking about happened in LG1. The name of the player who pulled that off was Bartbug/Beetle.) Second, he appeals to the need for an explanation: he identifies Winter's going gently into that good night as a strange discrepancy crying out for explanation. I've disagreed with him on several grounds. I've challenged the idea that QF7 maps on as well to this game as he would like to suggest it does: I've argued that if it does, then he faces inconsistencies with the scenario he's suggesting. Consequently, it seems QF7 does not map over very well. Second, I've challenged the plausibility of the gambit he's suggested, pointing out there are many reasons suggesting against it. Third, I've challenged the very motivation he offers for accepting the scenario he's sketched out, by pointing out that there is nothing at all unusual about Winter's behaviour or that particularly requires explanation. I want to further note that it is not enough for M'Hael to suggest possibility--he requires the stronger claim of plausibility. And even that is insufficient, since there are many possible and plausible scenarios that are mutually exclusive (i.e. only one of them can be true of this game.) For this, he then also needs the evidence he offered: Winter's strange behaviour. For this reason, I believe his arguments are generally weak and I have shown that they fall. Edit: Note: This is not to say that the M'Hael cannot be correct. That would require me to have Hreo-level knowledge of the game. But the point I am making is not about the M'Hael. It is about his argument, and it is that his argument cannot take him to the conclusion he wants to reach. And therefore I remain unconvinced by them.
