Kasimir

Nice names y'all got there. Be a pity if someone got themselves lynched 'cause of a typo...

Everybody knew the dice were loaded. Everybody rolled with their fingers crossed. Valens wasn't rolling dice, though he moodily rolled a clip over his knuckles and between his fingers. His beer sat in front of him, mostly untouched. "Oh, come on," said Roark, who was on his fifth beer by now. "Sure, you bungled it up, but there're plenty of fish in the sea." Valens just shot him a look, and carried on playing with the clip. “You win some, you lose some.” Roark clapped him on the shoulder. “C’mon, there are better things to be doing than moping about in a hole like this.” People lost things in places like Kengold’s. If you were lucky, all you lost were your boxings. Valens knew someone who’d lost his liver in Kengold’s. Still, the alcohol was cheap, and harsh enough to peel paint, which entailed that it was good enough for Valens to drown some memories that didn’t bear carrying. “I like it here.” “Lord Ruler,” Roark muttered. “You’re wallowing.” “Seems to me I’m entitled to some…” Valens flipped the coin, made it disappear down Roark’s left coat-pocket. “Wallowing.” “There’s wallowing, and then there’s pathetic, and then there’s ‘we could turn this into one of those ten-boxing plays’,” retorted Roark. “You know ‘em, the sort of rust that only sells ‘cause they’ve packed the place with Soothers and Rioters.” Valens sighed. “You’ve made your point.” “Finally. So let’s get out of this rusting place already, and—” “Nah,” Valens said. “I’m staying. I think this place is starting to grow on me.” He produced another clip and began to fidget with it again. Roark had a catalogue of sighs and expressions. This particular one, Valens recognised as a combination of ‘Valens-you’re-too-rusting-stubborn’ and ‘Valens-she-isn’t-worth-it’ and ‘Valens-being-your-friend-is-so-rusting-hard-sometimes.’ He knew that. But it didn’t make that little gnawing wyrm of hurt and shame go away. After all wasn’t there that Erikell who’d written that reason was the slave to the passions? - Too much RP for a sign-up? This one seems so sparse :/ Either way, Valens has love-life problems and figures this might be just the thing. Edited for formatting + swapping a bit of background.

One interesting point where Moash is concerned is that it takes serious work to be so hated by the fanbase to the extent that there's an entire subreddit dedicated (just like the Cult of the Stick) to two Words: "RUST MOASH" The last I checked, they had over three pages full of threads, all of which were about "RUST MOASH". That's...serious dedication, right there.

I slightly differ on what accusations of hypocrisy do. If we build in a few assumptions of moral (or even in general, argumentative) discourse, including that logical consistency is a desideratum of a theory/set of moral standards, then it's not as if Amaram has actually made a bad point. Hypocrisy arguments are supposed to attach disproportionately to positions, because they're about pointing out that there is a given inconsistency in a moral position. One way of outlining any moral claim Dalinar makes is as follows: x is the right/wrong thing to do because (implicit claim) Standards X says it's the right/wrong thing to do, and Standards X is the correct set of moral standards to follow. If that's the case, what a hypocrisy challenge really does is to provide such claims with a dilemma. Either: A. Standards X is correct; but then you have knowingly violated a set of moral standards you deem to be correct. This seems to indicate either that you believe moral standards do not apply to you (possibly a sign of moral bad faith), or alternatively, that you do not think Standards X applies to everyone. This may very well be fine since we don't need to believe that moral standards should be universal, but it does then raise the question of exactly why Amaram should then subscribe to Standards X or think it applies to him, as well as suspicions that Dalinar is simply conveniently excluding himself from compliance. Both weaken Dalinar's position. B. Standards X is wrong; your violation of Standards X indicates that Standards X is not a good set of moral standards to begin with, and you are merely ignoring this important data-point. Since Amaram doesn't even accept Standards X to begin with, while Dalinar implicitly does, it's not difficult to see why a hypocrisy challenge would have a disproportionate effect on the two of them. (For the record, I think Amaram's arguments are in fact bad ones; I just don't think it's for the reasons so far discussed.)

Do you have links to some relevant WoB or theory on this? Last time I was in, the consensus seemed to be that Regrowth and Stormlight healing both had to do with your Cognitive image of yourself, such that my assumption was if Regrowth can't do it for Rysn, neither should Stormlight healing.

Would she though? Wasn't there a mention of seeking Stormlight healing earlier, before Rysn shot it down, saying it wasn't going to work on her?

I wondered about this too, but it's possible that what Renarin saw in WoR was just the return of the Everstorm and what looked like a pretty cataclysmic event (especially given he's not ignorant of Vorin theology), rather than literally, everyone dying. He panicked (who wouldn't?) and kept saying they were all dead. Part of me does wonder if some of Renarin's visions are literally true but neglect context. The one that was wrong was Jasnah killing him, but it seemed the other was right: he saw Dalinar kneel before Odium and Dalinar did in fact kneel. It's just that he didn't see what came after--Dalinar getting back on his feet and telling Odium just where he could stick that job offer.

What, to go with her Shardfork?

But there are gaps in Glys's memory, aren't there? He can't remember how he's been corrupted, for instance. Perhaps he wouldn't be able to remember if there were others like him.

Four words: Chain. Chull-slap. Of. Doom. That turned me into a Jasnah fanboy right there.

Forgot to squee over this: the climax fights were storming awesome. I really loved Jasnah's fight scenes in particular--chain chullslap of doom, anyone? I used to think Elsecallers were a bit meh, but I have learned the error of my ways now.

*quiet weeping everytime people use 'beg the question' this way...* Haha, j/k. I agree with you that it's plausible--I don't think we know enough to say for sure yet. Dalinar's experience with Odium seems to suggest that Odium does contain a lot of passion, but also a great deal of hatred. I'm a bit sketchy on how much control Rayse gets, because my impression was that he's been carrying the Shard for a long time, and isn't the Shard's Intent supposed to overwhelm him at some point? (Like it did Tanavast and certain other Shards we know of.) I mean, if Odium was really Passion, then why isn't Rayse turning Roshar into a R-21 world? (I agree one answer could be Rayse's focus. I just get a nagging feeling we haven't seen the full story yet, since I don't find Dalinar's interactions with Odium super-convincing. Odium wanted to recruit Dalinar, meaning he was all about the PR.)

Not possible for Taln, surely? The Shin never had Taln's Honorblade, since Taln had been in Braize all the while. And speaking of which, we still don't know what became of Taln's Honorblade ever since it was taken from him... (Do we? I last recall all we knew was that Hoid hadn't taken it.)

It seems to me like most of the Shards should not be fool-proof anyway. Context and moral luck can easily turn what seems like good pairings of virtues into vices. I am 50-50 about Odium being Passion. There's definitely more to the story, but then there's the question of why the WoR Letter Writer talks about Odium bearing the weight of god's own divine hatred, which seems to suggest that is a bit more dominant in Odium's makeup. Plus: most of the Odium-and-Dalinar sections read like Odium is trying to get Dalinar to swap teams (or to join his team.) In which case, you market and put the best spin on things you can. You don't mess up your PR because no one wants to join your team then. He wants Dalinar so he wants to appear attractive to Dalinar and is clearly trying to go to some effort to talk Dalinar over. Maybe the bigger deal is with what Odium is not saying, or exaggerating.

That being said, would that really have done any good though? My impression was that any Alethi who wasn't a KR or a squire was basically in danger of getting possessed/taken over by Odium. And last I checked, they were providing most of the military forces in the coalition (apart from the ships.) Perhaps Super T forsaw this and knew that if the huge army had been present, the huge army would have likely been co-opted by Odium through the Thrill and then the Thaylens would've been knee-deep in crem.

So, just finished Oathbringer after staying up 'till about 11AM to finish this. (I don't recommend it, and there were other factors...) I generally really liked the book, although I was somewhat surprised to discover the Sadeas thread ended up being more or less a non-issue. But maybe this will become a deal later on, especially if others find out. Thoughts/Questions: -I wonder what someone burning malatium would see if they looked at Moash... -Pattern for MVP! No mating! -I just enjoyed pretty much every character's appearance here, including Szeth and Nale. Though now I really want to know how Nale would react to Zhuangzi's dilemma. -Adolin and Renarin are surprisingly well-adjusted, given their past. What with Dalinar's BSOD after Evi's death, and in the first place, Dalinar's constant absences. -Shadesmar and the spren: I liked getting to see what was there, looking at spren societies, etcetera. -I was ambivalent but now I really hope Adolin and Maya forge some kind of bond. Doesn't have to be Nahel, I'd happily go for friendship as long as Maya is revived, though I'm increasingly enjoying the idea of Edgedancer!Adolin. -The issue with the Fused seems way about the KR paygrade. How do you even go about seeking reconciliation and making restitution for something as enormous as killing the ancient singers and stealing their homelands? -Elhokar...why D: Eshonai too. Any character whose name begins with 'E' is at risk--quick, burn your glyphwards!

I'm guessing what you're suggesting is that since (unlike the Fused?) Renarin has one corrupted KR spren, he runs on both systems--voidlight and stormlight--and maybe his inability to use Illumination is because that Surge is corrupted, so he needs to draw on Voidlight to power it, rather than Stormlight? (And vice-versa: he can't fuel Progression via Voidlight...)

It threw me too, though one of the earlier WoR epigraphs says this of Rayse: "He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context." It sounds a lot like hatred--after all, one might think that passion, too, might count as a virtue that gives hatred context. But I suppose this could really equally refer to some other virtues like temperance, moderation, patience, empathy etcetera that might contextualise passion. Still--Airsick Lowlander Second Class! This book is full of quotes I want icons of, already...

I used to be on board the 'Adolin for Dustbringer' train but I'm liking the idea of Edgedancer better. (Ignoring narrative issues and stuff like 'oh wouldn't it be great if Adolin remained the Badchull Normal in the cast.) He's a trained duelist, first and foremost. Remember how Nale describes the Edgedancers? As being able "to ride the thinnest rope at speed, dance across rooftops, and move through a battlefield like a ribbon on the wind." Adolin moving through a battlefield like a ribbon on the wind with Mayalaran in hand, an unstoppable force of destruction. Yes please. (That being said, I like TheGoodyShop's idea of a reversal where Maya is broken and bonding to Adolin fills in her cracks instead.)

I only signed in to comment on Oathbringer but couldn't resist stopping by here to troll you. You dropped this: Just for the record, he talked to me about this on our usual channel of communication. Why do you think he later said any attempt to circumvent his restrictions on player interaction would be considered to be attempted rule-breaking? You're welcome. I regret nothing. Trolling Wyrm entertains me.

I need a shirt or something that says 'No Mating.' Oh, Pattern, you're my MVP for this segment. I like the Dalinar flashbacks. You think the other nations are being a bit extreme about refusing to trust Dalinar, but the flashbacks show the Blackthorn was more than just badchull--like they say, he's a shshsh but he's our shshsh. You point him at an enemy and that's it. Given that baggage, I'm not surprised they think it's just an Alethi issue. (Though I suppose Edgedancer already hinted at it, when he's referred to as an Alethi warlord.) ^Signed back in just to comment on Oathbringer, now that I've finally finished preliminary grading. Go me...

Except I'm not assuming every opinion that goes against mine is not helping the Village at best. That's being charitable by assuming you are in fact a Villager who has a different take on the game, even if it's wrong. If you disagree about it being wrong, that's your problem. You are playing like a member of the 17th Shard, and that's fair grounds to ask for a suspicion kill or a lynch. You expect me to do the same? Sure. I think the best way to help the Village is to get rid of people who are playing like 17th Shard. If you disagree, that's your prerogative. The kill roles will decide. All I can do is to convince them that I think this is the best for the Village since we're playing against Team Hoid, rather than anyone else. If your logic holds, then you shouldn't be trying to silence how they want to play either, no?

Except that your logic was flawed. It doesn't mean flawed logic can't get a good result occasionally - it just makes you bloody lucky, especially since your logic pointed to a larger set of players than just Lopen. It's virtually just only a little better than running on blind gut - gut and the RNG can be right sometimes. It doesn't make it a good way to play, or a logical way to play. Had Alv come forward with his information earlier, that would have proved a better reason for a lynch than your reasoning. Also, holy roleclaims Batman o.O I just drop my info in the thread and everyone does it? Seriously? >> With Odium down, my suggestion is to finally focus on 17S. If Elenion keeps insisting Odium is an issue, I recommend Village kill roles target him. You can get rid of me later, if you like, but he is not helping the Village at best with his insistence on a continuing Odium witchhunt. (While Odium likely appointed a Champion, we don't know that for sure.) We only win this game if we get rid of Team Hoid. Everything else is a storming distraction, and the fact that he is so insistent that Odium is dangerous (essentially a glorified kill role) is at worst an attempt to shift the focus of this entire game onto something that has no direct relevance to our existing win condition. (Sure, you'd druther be converted. But that's neither here nor there - that's your personal preference rather than your win con.) Storms, new Odium, you can get rid of him, if you like. And my reasoning is actually the opposite of yours, Sart - I actually think getting rid of Cultivation is the way to stop Team Hoid's win con. As long as Cultivation exists, the chance to un-Shatter the Shards exist and while likely miniscule, is still there. Furthermore, two Shards have already been Shattered, which still nixes Team Hoid's first win con unless they can get Cultivation to work its magic. Shattering Autonomy now is a wonderful distraction which also serves no purpose, and that recommendation makes me intensely suspicious of you, since Autonomy's potential to convert helps us if we're playing against Team Hoid with their second win con. Remember, Autonomy can win with us or with Team Hoid. But if Shards remain Shattered, then having Team Hoid need to outnumber us, Survival, possibly Odium's Champion with the Shard, and an unlimited conversion Faction is immensely helpful. In fact, Alv: you suggested that Cultivation would also be bad for us. Why did you think so?

Well, technically it's not really a scan and I've probably McGuyvered the role. I'm a Forger - or was, since I now have Araris's role (or lack thereof) and Araris is a Forger. He could use it, of course, in which case I have no idea if I'm going to be a Forger again on Night 5, or if we have temporarily created more Forgers. The new Forger wouldn't be able to do anything though since Araris using my remaining stamp would mean whoever it is would be a Forger with no stamps Specifically, I checked in with Seonid since I didn't want to have wasted a 'scan' - Forgery cannot give me the abilities of a Shard (obviously, this was in the rules), but I would receive the base role of 'Vessel of X', with X being the Shard in question. In other words, if Araris were Odium, I would expect to receive the role 'Vessel of Odium'. Even if Araris were Odium and he had passed the Shard to his Champion, recall that ex-Shards still retain the base role of Vessel - this doesn't change even if you no longer hold the Shard. Suffice to say that I did not receive the role 'Vessel of Odium', meaning that Araris has never held that Shard. Unless I've missed something out, of course. Note: other Forgers out there, if you don't have anything better to do, consider doing a role-swap in order to 'scan' for Odium. I'm not sure it's foolproof (I haven't thought in great detail about it), but it might beat sitting around, wondering what to do with those stamps...

Didn't you get roleblocked though? Or was that on a different night? Edit: Cultivation, if you want to give me a refill, hit someone else first. I won't be good for anything until Night 5, so that's an absurd amount of downtime.