Kasimir

Basically, yes. Steel clarified this would be a two-Infiltrator-one-Revolutionary sort of case (for instance), with all the Royals exterminated. This would let them win. Revolutionaries do have the easier shot at the wincon since they just have to outnumber every hostile faction (and keep in mind that we don't know if the secret factions are hostile - this could really boil down to just outnumbering both Royalists individually.) Revolutionaries and Infiltrators would have to agree to careful numbers pruning which could be very fragile and easily fall apart, but they're not hostile so there's a clear path to victory together if they're committed to it. Think about kayana scheduling things like blowing up Roshar so a certain slow Shard could finish placing an avatar on each world just as the last Elim died. This is entirely distinct from say, the two Royalists who can't win together, or the Royalists and the Revolutionaries.

Endgame is triggered by when the Six Commands are researched, simpliciter: All they have to do is to ensure that their wincons are completed first when at least six commands have been discovered.

Steel has clarified this. The Infiltrators are not a hostile faction to the Revolutionaries. The Revolutionaries only have to outnumber all hostile factions. They can win together. This is only a problem if endgame is triggered and the Elims don't outnumber the Revolutionaries as well. But it's a really small problem compared to say, inter-Royalist brawling, or fundamental Royalist-Revolutionary incompatibility. Their chief weapon is the kill and more significant faction/distro knowledge...their two chief weapons are the kill, and more significant faction/distro knowledge and their ability to siphon Breath and items from their targets...their three chief weapons are the kill, and more significant faction/distro knowledge and their ability to siphon Breath and items from their targets! Soddit, I'll come in again >> Welcome to faction games! This is why I hate them >>

Urgh, damn, I've got 15 stuck in my head somehow 11 Thanks man :joy: Partly meta here, but Steel loves his SKs and I would not be terribly shocked for one faction to be de facto SK, which means aan'allein. 3/3/3 and 3/3/2 makes sense, and 4/4/3 is reasonable as a starting distribution for the three Primary Factions as well. I guess it's one of those 'we have ranges but in the current state of our ignorance...' type cases right now. Don't forget the Cowardly Elite will also toss a spanner into the works IMO. This is only true if you aren't a revolutionary, and it may not be true of the secret factions. I don't actually think the Doves are as committed to finding Infiltrators either - killing Infiltrators helps to keep Royals safe but as long as the Six Commands are researched, another secret faction has won, one Royal still lives, and numDoves > numHawks, they've won. Wow, how very hawkish of you :eyes:

Due to RL circumstances, @StrikerEZ is unable to run a MR right now after all and will be passing. (Hope everything gets better for you, bro.) The MR list thus looks like this: In order, who will take the Ring to Mount Doom - sorry, I mean, who feels up to running a MR?

This is very interesting. This is pushing me towards agreeing with Ash. Making all the secret factions small, one member factions would result in de facto helping the Elims with their wincon too much. Admittedly would also defeat the social element/expectation of a faction game.

Personal guess: 4/4/4 for Hawks/Doves/Revolutionaries, 1/1/1 for secret factions. Adds up to 15. Probably anywhere between two to four Elims, lean stronger on three. Suspect Elims need to outnumber in total rather than per faction since the latter is easier to achieve, but could be wrong. Either way, recall we can't win the game - any of us - until six Commands are researched as well, so there's the game ending condition to think about, then a race to fulfill wincon by the time the first faction does. Edited to add: 3/3/3 - 2/2/2 also possible, but I doubt it: too much swing.

The day dawned, the sun a bloody smear of red against the sky. Kirilas stirred his tea moodily and flipped the sign on the cafe door from CLOSED to OPEN. It wasn't the fancy stuff he reserved for customers—a little extract of butterfly pea flower and some mixed in sugar, and you had sweetened tea where the colours settled in layers, mixing eventually. But what mattered was that you could market it as though it was the Tears of Edgli itself. People paid for that. Mostly tourists, elites. People who threw away money on curiosities. Hallendren, city of colours, city of dyes, city of the exotic, the wild, the contents of fevered imaginings. This was a regular cup of tea, though. He called it his morning blend. Bracingly strong, or Kirilas imagined he wouldn't be able to meet the day. Last he heard, the city was in chaos and the king was driving it all to ruin. People talked a lot, in cafes. They never seemed to think they would be heard. Sometimes, Kirilas felt as though you could take the pulse of Hallendren in a place like his cafe, where functionaries ate, and students whispered; where some whispered of revolution, or even BioChromatic discoveries. It was a quiet morning in the cafe, and as Kirilas set the first batch of pastries into the oven to bake, he hoped it was going to be a good day.

Basically coalition-bargaining. Doesn't matter if wincons are incompatible - sometimes you just need each other for that particular cycle and then you can worry about who is going to backstab whom tomorrow. Sometimes you need to throw in temporarily with one enemy. Faction games have that dynamic a lot more for obvious reasons.

Me? I just want to be where my bros are One of the main reasons I signed up.

To summarise what I've said elsewhere in a single line: yes and no. I think the secret wincons alter the dynamics of the game but I also firmly believe that information is power and that's something that has to be balanced for. We see this in the standard uninformed majority-informed minority dynamic of a regular SE game. I am not sure this substantively changes the fact that the Elim faction is a problem for everyone else. At the same time, the Revolutionaries and Elims do share part of their wincon. And the more I think about it, the more I feel it's the standard faction game dynamic anyway - because the Elims have a kill and can infiltrate other factions, they have an informational advantage and a kill (!) This makes them likely to be kingmakers, although any faction can have kingmaker potential depending on the gamestate. I wouldn't overly focus on the secret wincons because the mere fact we have multiple factions with incompatible wincons means the dynamic will not be standard Village/Elim, and there will be horsetrading. I'm more - well, as mentioned, I seldom play faction games, so my basic reflex is always standard Village/Elim, and second, in the state of our ignorance, it seems to me that we're compelled to go standard Village/Elim anyway. I'm sure this will change somewhat once we have our factions, but that's a tomorrow problem and today me doesn't feel indebted ...Single paragraph maybe?

I feel personally attacked and I'll have you know I've only PMed the people whom I am actively invested in being in a faction with because I want a fun doc >:( I am tired after having taken the beating of a lifetime from Orlok and Wyrm was eating popcorn and I do not have the energy to make [Edit: mass] PMs. I'll RP or something tomorrow, sorry everyone, my bad, I need to recharge >> I don't even know what to be able to say right now. Instinct is the Foreign Infiltrators should already know who they are and they're the standard Elim faction but this is N0, no voting, also Austre only knows what the damned wincons are for the secret factions (can they win with the Foreign Infiltrators despite the outnumber condition? If so, implications on votes?) so /shrug, probably a bad idea to run into this game full-tilt like a standard Village game even though I kinda want to. Disco delenda est right >>

Been a bit busy/tired, mostly. Have a Sailor Medium coming in though, and I need to fix this Sailor Broad nib of mine I think some US-based r/fountainpens users talked about some budget sugarcane paper, but can't remember off the top of my head...

You know, if you didn't want me to play, you needn't have pinged me to let me know that your game was up

Lesgo :eyes: Signing up as Kirilas, the proprietor of a small café selling a variety of teas and pastries, with blends suitable for the seasons. Wyran claims that Kirilas spikes his blends with clippings from the Tears of Edgli. He LIES. No, sir, these are 100% authentic unicorn tears butterfly pea blends

Hello there! Haven't you played with Clanky before?

I'm going to get this AAR up before I forget about this game. Apologies, Fifth After-Action Report Surprisingly or otherwise, this one is less involved. More brief thoughts than anything particularly detailed. Probably because I'm tired >> Distro Commentary A lot of times in a game, especially when either team more or less near-sweeps, you have to ask if the game is balanced or if the distro was just volatile. I do think this can be somewhat complex as a game, so is not as easy to balance. I think tapping/storing is neat, requires players to be careful about concealing themselves (or to not care, I suppose), and creates ability scarcity as a result of player choices. Another element of tapping/storing I liked is that it was a neat way of making the scans de facto oneshots without us actually saying so - given the player group size and the store rate, it was very unlikely that a player was getting off a fulltap scan twice. The two distro thoughts Fifth and I had were: A. whether or not to go with a two-player team that was really beefed up (ideally two FFs) and/or B. whether to have the Synod compromised. I leaned towards preferring a compromised Synod; Fifth favoured an uncompromised Synod. I don't really feel bad about the decision to give the Elims three players. I think it could have been complicated in a different world - as it was, Stick's death was the beginning of their troubles because JNV would come under some suspicion after that. The coin tosses could lead to a very different world: Mat nearly died, as did Araris, which could have shifted the game's landscape quite a bit, especially since Araris dying meant that Stick survived. So there is that amount of volatility there. Pewter I think is balanced by player choice, since Striker chose to store for the fulltap rather than tap, which, fair enough, but I think that's something to keep in mind if trying to balance with a FF. Players can have a lot of options, but how they choose to use them is key, and that's not something a GM can always anticipate. I do think the Village's ability to get three scans off near the end and Elan's good use of her PM ability really helped to narrow down the PoE towards the end. In a game of this size, I'm feeling eh about this. I don't think that's a big deal in a group with a bigger player size, but I do think it's worth noting as that can be quite the power spike for the Village as a way of closing out the game, especially coupled with the Synod kill. Equally though, Mat and Araris were fairly fragile. Araris had to decide in the Day if he was going pewter. I'm leaning towards "I might like one less Tin or fewer starting charges" for one of the three scans, but I also think player choice mattered (Araris could've filled a different metal, and again, Mat fragility.) All in all, no strong feelings, some weak ones. Actions Economy Players took less advantage of the guaranteed kill than expected, whereas Ash being the last Elim meant that in terms of actions economy, he started to be very hard-pressed. I think JNV being the last Elim might have made things a little less tight, but admittedly, the Village had the capacity to softclear a number of other players so I don't see that as a big deal. Doggo Adoption Shame on y'all except Elan, why are you okay with letting four sad doggos rough it alone Synod No strong thoughts on the Synod either. We did expect some potential in-Synod shooting, and Steel figuring the Synod might actually not be compromised after all was fairly helpful for the Village. Synod kill was used to narrow PoE so that was ok for the Village, even if not optimal. Synod doc was a little dead, but I'm not terribly surprised by it.

Already edited in I'll grant I was more worried it would kill your sanity since I could always translate and Y/N you. And to think we did it just for one cycle

Nothing much to keep secret - I did say I shamelessly plagiarised/adopted the code Aonar, Maili, Meta, and myself created in QF6 But I'm current prepping for an exam due in under half an hour so I'll drop by later to comment on things and code-dump. I feel you suffered more, Mat All the screeching... Edited to add: I asked Mat if he preferred a tedious or complex code. Tedious would've been smuggling the alphabet into screeches. Complex would be a bit more involved, but meant to convey more info. We also did a couple of yes/no questions here and there on top of this. Mat picked complex. So this is the first iteration (had to change it later when punctuation was ruled out.) The Code: In my view, there's no significant difference whether colour and formatting is or isn't allowed as I think the same info can be conveyed regardless - Mat and I swapped so that the ! was replaced by H-count, and confusion/agreement/disagreement was replaced by: The three-s-es being distinctive as no other screech uses that. I'd like colour/formatting for QoL but it's clearly really possible to not bother with that at all. I actually tried to go formatting-lite - the original code was formatting-heavy - in order to spare Mat. I do think that the colour/formatting issue might be a bigger deal at larger player counts, perhaps. We were blessed with eight players so it didn't really matter. Comments I've already shared with Devo - in general, I don't often play faction games because I dislike the backstabbing but having an active doc with Mat was fun. I feel the kingmaker issue isn't too big a deal as it tends to materialise in faction games - cf. QF46. Probably maybe more thoughts later. Tired rn.

Functionally, an Elim Defector only wins with the Elims. Pragmatically, players gonna player - can't really do anything about that part. @Archer Your move. Archer Wiz

@Archer- At the risk of further cementing your thoughts, I note that Books last logged in sixteen hours ago (as of my current check.) Let's break it up - four hours ago was rollover. This means that Books last logged in at the start of last cycle and then did not appear again. I'm doubting that Books would be able to follow closely enough to know to kill Mat, rather than me - especially since if it were Books, Books would've had to put in the kill order at the start of the cycle which makes not very much sense. I think this entails it's Wiz. Question is, do you think allowing Wiz to decide which Village faction wins is an endgame you can live with?

I'm not an Emissary. (In fact, from what I'm saying, it should be patently clear who is.) As the Elims already know, and as the vote count should've hinted - I'm the Social Martyr. I protected Books last cycle by shifting a vote off Books to myself. This also does imply if you talk me around, it's going to be hard to get a lynch off without my being the CW since I can Riot one vote onto myself. So there's no way of knowing, really, with regard to the Defector lie, but I feel that unless Hoid was under sufficient scrutiny in your doc, little reason to make that lie. Hoid wasn't on the main vote trains C1. But the exe and the Elim kill happen at the same time. We're currently 2-2. In other words, we exe the Elim, the Elim simultaneously kills someone, and then this decides which faction wins/loses, because one faction will have only one player left as the result of the kill. @Devotary of Spontaneity Is this the correct way to read this? Both the exe and the kill must be resolved before you decide who wins/loses? If we're running on the perspective that any Village victory > Elim victory, then I think we have to shrek within <Wiz, Books.> In any reasonable world, I'm the kill target this cycle, and the Elim can't really touch you for the risk that you'll out them. (Given Books' and Hoid's activity levels, IDK, maybe this isn't actually the biggest deal for the Elim. I could see E!Wiz deciding a final three with V!Hoid and V!Books is okay, especially since Books is currently on death row.) Ok. So rehashing - if Village victory > Elim victory and we're patently fine with the Elim rolling the dice, then one of you/me has to survive to the final three. Not picky which, but this maximises our chances given the activity levels of the others. Our absolute worst case scenario is E!Wiz versus V!Hoid since there's a chance of an Elim win and a Village loss there. Hoid has to show up and vote versus Wiz and win a cointoss for this to come to a draw (joint win/loss, as Devo described.) We get to this world if Books doesn't show up this cycle and gets inactivity killed (instead of replaced), and you get lynched, and I get killed (or vice versa.) A lot of this depends on whether Books is your Defector. I feel like this makes a bit more sense because Books has been viewing our doc (could be Tani, to be fair), and has seemingly not been replaced in our doc. Wiz has been more vocal about faction dominance but that's not surprising because Orlok absolutely would given certain caveats. (MR7, long story.) I also don't see Wiz pushing so strongly for Cryptic kills if Wiz is also a Cryptic. It's the deepwolf issue again. So yeah, I'd be willing to believe that it's more likely Wiz.

I absolutely don't think you're Evil, no. I would be down for a joint faction victory but I don't think there's the consensus for it. Otherwise, I point to AG7 where I was willing to take the ML to ensure we could co-win with the neutrals. In theory, we're very likely tied - I don't buy that you guys have no Defector, meaning that one of <Wiz, Books> is likely a fellow Cryptic of yours, and one of them is Evil. So here's the calculus: If a Cryptic Defector Exists: Scenario 1: We ML the Cryptic Defector. This entails that the set-up for the next cycle is: 1 Cryptic, 1 HS Defector, 1 Elim. The Elim kill and the exe go through at the same time, so this minimally means one of us loses, based on who the Elim picks. I don't even know if we can ML the Cryptic Defector as the Cryptic Defector has an incentive to claim to try to form a voting bloc with you and this leaves the Elim as the kingmaker. Scenario 2: We kill the Elim. We're currently 2 HS and 2 Cryptics, so the Elim is once again kingmaker, with one faction losing. Scenario 3: We ML you. The Elim has a weak incentive to vote with us as you're pretty much confirmed Village, meaning you can't be alive in any reasonable endgame for that Elim, and killing you before you are the last player standing is a death sentence. The set-up for the next cycle is 1 Cryptic Defector, 1 HS Defector, 1 Elim. If a Cryptic Defector Doesn't Exist: Scenario 4: We ML a HS. This entails that the set-up for the next cycle is: 1 Cryptic, 1 HS Defector, 1 Elim. Same analysis. Elim decides who wins. Scenario 5: We lynch the Elim. Immediate HS victory. Scenario 6: We ML you. One HS dies. The set-up for next cycle is 1 HS + 1 Defector, 1 Elim. None of this factors in Books dying from inactivity which is a problem for us if Books is Village. But I think Books has been lingering in the doc so it is possible Books could be sending in actions. I don't think exeing you is necessarily superior - it just makes a difference for us between Scenario 3 and Scenario 6. I'm open to being talked otherwise. Edited to add: @Archer Bro I think you misread the rules. Elims win on outnumbering. Both Cryptics and Honorspren can joint win on parity. There is no parity condition for the Elims. Edited to add 2: @HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES - How do you feel about going into the final round to potentially try to win for the HS?

Sirak wasn't sure he liked this. Pie was dead, and it turned out that Pie was the one who'd saved him. Not that it was the hardest guess to make, though it did make Sirak wonder about Valley. Perhaps Valley wasn't who they'd all thought the spren was. Did it matter right now? Fendor had spoken. As had Wiz. Even so, Sirak accepted the patent absurdity of the situation. He didn't even think Anger was Enlightened, really. Just that Anger had a number of temper control issues, and well, there they were. Some of the Archivists would've said Sirak had temper control issues. But really, he just didn't suffer fools. You didn't get to his age by being patient with people who wasted your time getting you to pull seventy-five articles from the Archives, only to decide that what they wanted was in another section after all. "I'll back an inquiry into Anger," he drawled. "I'm not sure I quite like it, but it looks like the negotiations have stalled." [OOC: Voting Archer.]

Didn't expect this but it's not wholly shocking. Off the bat, I'm going to say this soft clears Archer in my eyes, and Archer will likely be a living fixture since his death would more or less guarantee the HS can kill the surviving Elim as long as Archer picks a good deadeyes contact. Some paranoia thoughts but I'm going to ignore them for now. I do find Hoid's claim prima facie plausible given confirmation from It's good to see Mat was clean and the fact Mat couldn't self-protect likely made him the kill priority. I'm going to vote Books/Symphonium for this cycle, despite Books also being on death row. I'll come back to this, I guess, since the other candidate for me is Wiz. I find it prima facie plausible that Books is refusing to engage, and also note that Wiz and I had both roleclaimed in the doc. One way Mat would be the obvious kill for a HS Elim (or I suppose xino, if xino had the kill) might be because of Archer's discussion of the likely protector, but also the other possibility is simple elimination - Bodyguard can't self-protect so I can't be the Bodyguard and I'd already claimed, Wiz had also already claimed, and Books knows their own role, so they'd know to put the kill in on Mat. No current thoughts on what to make of Wiz - feel the late vote could easily be a soft bus (since Wiz likely doesn't know if xino is Evil) but open to thoughts.