Kasimir

What a coincidence, this is my chill game where I channel Age of Empires 2 ladder zen, don't care about my accuracy, and just chill with my bros and yell at anyone who tries to drag me into anything in a PM >> Can someone throw me a bone here? I am okay with my character but sort of struggling to find a way to grapple with the setting and RP. I've read QF23 but that's not much of an Alcatraz primer and I'd like to have my chill RPful game at long last. Ash

Very late, but this

Wonderful, someone else who hasn't read Alcatraz. Now I don't feel so alone anymore. Signing up as Kazed Sarkar, a student of the Kitab al-Manazir.

Does the old PM close? Suppose A and B have Courier's Lenses. What happens if A's lenses are shattered - both to the PM and for B's lenses? Do they essentially become non-functional? Entire PM exchange or single PM message? A lie? How's that supposed to stop Fifth? :eyes:

Please don't. Your faction has nothing to gain, and I'm only interested in convincing the Doves. I'm not down for validating Archer's thoughts on 'guilting' players into going with the Hawk-Dove coalition, and if Archer wants the game to go that way, he can have it. Please stay out of this.

I'm not asking anyone to play sub-optimally. I think you guys do what makes sense to you, and I know you're very much an optimal player person. I'm pointing out to the Doves that this is absolutely their best shot at winning and this cycle will make or break them. I will also point out that you're not addressing the issue. I've told you as much in my PM: I'm happy to accept a personal loss as a result of choosing not to defect. This doesn't change the fact that: There is no incentive to go Hawk-Dove, barring an existential threat. There is no reason not to go Elim-Rev-Neutrals - the wincons don't collide since no Neutral cares about outnumbering. Total lynch control guarantees this. Happy if you can show me that your 'ta da, intrigue' is actually true. Your post reads of "Well, you chose to play suboptimally therefore this is deserved." I'm not going to engage with this since I think it's utterly disingenuous not to notice where the motivations are structurally baked. No one said anything about giving up in mid-game. You think it's fun logging in cycle after cycle to die to lynch control you can't fight? Because that's the only result for the Doves if they don't currently have the numbers. TUN has already made the 'Doves delenda est' agenda very clear. That's not giving up, that's acknowledging what the structure of the game is like. Funny that Araris is on board with me and that TUN isn't denying being an Elim eh? But I'm not really in this to convince you, just the Doves. Edit: And to be clear, I'm not saying 'show me this is true' by defecting. You have your own wincon to think about. I'm saying show me this is true that any rational and reasonable player given the wincon, distribution of incentives, and the structure of this game, has a reason to care about Royals in their ranks to the extent this is a dealbreaker. The incompatibility just doesn't compare.

Oh yeah, anyone who wants to @ me about not accepting that I or Araris could just simply change my wincon - that's not the point. The point is that two factions are completely fed out the gate and telling me I chose not to defect doesn't change that this is a fundamental structural problem and I'm not in the mood to hear it. You're also implying that if neither of us happened to be CE, we'd be thoroughly screwed, and that'd be a problem too. I GMed MR7 and MR7 wasn't structurally broken (though the Bribe mechanic did cause issues.) The biggest core problem with MR7 was that it completely failed to look at player incentives and player motivations and the logical result of that was that players ganged up on the Elims out the gate and without a kill, and with zero player incentive to break that coalition, the Elims couldn't do anything and just died cycle after cycle without the ability to retaliate or change the gamestate. Nothing about my game said that had to happen. But it turned out the distribution of player incentives and motivations meant that was what happened. Meant that I was signing in as a GM to watch some of the calmest, trolliest, and most even-tempered of my players snap and start yelling in the GM PM. And that's how I knew my game was utterly, f-ing broken and a complete shabla clusterchull. Anyway. Ball's in your court, Doves. I'm not gonna get mad because I get rage headaches when I get really mad and Wyrm @s me enough about living off painkillers.

Seems like some people think we put winning over principle, what can I say 11 You killed Fifth. We're basically going to kill you, end of. @Doves: I've said as much to your teammates, but the point stands. The balance of this game is utterly fed and I'm not sorry to say that openly to Devo or to Steel. Yes, players have a limited perspective, I'll be happy to be proven wrong. But look at where the balance of incentives are. Players have every incentive to go Infil-Rev-Neutrals alliance. There is no way in hell the Infils and Revs make for an uncomfortable alliance, the 'neutrals' are scared as s*it about the Elim kill, and dgaf either way, and the Hawks and Doves cannot win together. This means there is zero fing player incentive for a Hawks-Doves alliance. There's a powerful bias towards an Infil-Rev-Neutrals alliance baked into the fing DNA of this game. What the f is the counterweight to this for any fing Primary Faction? I challenge you to show it to me. Go ahead, I'll wait. Doves. Get this straight. TUN approached us and asked us to jump ship and lynch @Luckspren. Guess they've changed their target right now. We said no because we have principles and we're not going to 'win' over getting rid of the damn Infil who killed our Royal. Our best hope right here, and right now is if we join forces and lynch TUN. You have a numeric advantage over us, so that part of your wincon is locked down for the moment. You don't have to kill Infils but given that TUN basically is gunning for you guys and you can't win with the Infils or Revs, we're your current best shot at winning. We both need to keep at least one Royal alive, and we're aware of another Royal whom we are protecting as best as we can. If you sit by and let the Elims whittle down your numbers, you lose because you will surrender lynch control. Then you have nothing to stop them from lynching you with impunity - all the Infil-Rev-Neutral alliance has to do is to log in every day, lynch the next Dove or suspected Royal, and call it a day, and log out. Maybe trade some horses on the side if they feel this game is too boring for them 11 Fun game, isn't it? How do you think you're going to win? The only, narrow path to victory I can see right here and right now is a Dove-Hawk alliance. We can worry about our wincons later, but there is an existential threat against our factions, and together, we may have the votes we need to swing this. And if we somehow don't have the votes now, we'd never have the votes anyway, so sorry but then we're both f-ed because Fifth died and that's beyond our control. Neutrals, I don't actually really care. If you want to put your faith in how committed the Revs and the Infils are to helping you win when any faction who hasn't fulfilled wincon is left out in the cold when a Primary Faction fulfills wincon, be my guest. I'm not gonna say I'll be sorry if you guys get left out at the end, and if you are even slightly worried this is a possible outcome, maybe you'd like to ask yourself who will help you by then. 'Cause we're gonna be too dead to care. [Edited to add: D'you think the other neutrals will care about helping you? Or will they just go "screw that, I've got mine."] I'll note there's only a few players in this game who have a history of purposefully delaying a win and even offering to tank a lynch to win with all neutrals. Gonna also point out, if this is a bit too pointed, that Archer thought this was a bad play from Team Roshar in AG7 A few players, I said? Well, one player offered to take a lynch to make sure we could win with all the neutrals and get the timing just right. And that player is me.

I stand with my PM bro and my Elite bro. Just because it says cowardly in the role doesn't mean we are cowards or will betray at the turn of a hat! An Infiltrator who kills Royals is of concern to Royalists of any avian stripe. We can kill each other later on. The Infils are our biggest problem. Solidarity with Araris.

In honour of Fifth, who has joined the Force:

TUN

Ni su'cuyi, gar kyr'adyc, ni partayli, gar darasuum Fifth. Today, the cafe on the corner of the street was closed. Their goals had never been aligned. Yallacero was too fond of this war, this chaos, this lying, this...this senseless killing, Kirilas thought. But you grieved with all your being when a brother died, and they had seen eye to eye on enough, and had fought together on battlefields long forgotten. Today, though, Kirilas baked. And baked. A cup of tea sat in front of an empty table. For friends gone now into the dark. A Lifeless, they said. But Kirilas knew better. Someone like Yallacero, he wouldn't have been taken by surprise just like that. If the security phrase was changed, then they had a strong Awakener. Maybe even treachery. It didn't matter that he'd never approved of Yallacero's means. The way Kirilas saw it, Yallacero had been murdered by someone who wanted royals dead. Yallacero had been private about his connection to the royal family, but perhaps someone had found out. Was it an unguarded moment, when he'd let his secret slip? Surely Yallacero knew better. And yet, he was staring at incontrovertible evidence that Yallacero had been killed for who he was. Who he was descended from. This made it Kirilas's problem. And even if it hadn't been, Yallacero was a brother in all but blood. They thought him a coward, for hiding in his cafe. They claimed he would switch his allegiances at the drop of a hat, as long as a faction approached him with the right incentive. Kirilas didn't care about all of that. Yallacero was dead. He baked, and he baked. Sharp cookies. Edgy cookies, shaped like spikes, like sharp points of cruel hard death. Kirilas baked, and baked, and thought of death and blood and vengeance. The scent of freshly-baked cookies drifted through the cafe. Today's menu involves vengeance cookies! PM me if you're a Royalist, and we can sort out this shabla business together Or PM me if you want a cup of hot tea and a vengeance cookie! (Sorry, only vengeance cookies on the menu.) The cafe may be closed, but for you, I'll make an exception

Kirilas flipped the sign on the cafe door so it read CLOSED. Dusk was falling on T'Telir. In the distance, he could see flames. The world seemed to have gotten itself into a great hurry these days, with the Manywar raging on. Kirilas wasn't even sure he knew why they were fighting anymore. He stacked empty mugs—washed clean, and dried—and gazed at the emptiness of his cafe. The scent of baked pastries and hot tea still lingered in the air. Inside T'Telir, they could still cling to the illusion of peace and abundance. But prices were rising. And some of those who came to his cafe were missing limbs, wounded. And some whispered of foreign infiltrators who had come to destroy the heart of Hallendren from the inside. Kirilas steeped the leaves in the hot water, and inhaled the fresh scent of hot tea. A spiced night blend, with an aftertaste of berries. Meant to induce a sense of pleasant sleepiness, something to take the edge off his nerves. He knew her, the one they'd taken away. He'd felt something was wrong, felt it to the marrow of his bones. He knew Elandera, had talked to her, and they'd briefly toyed with the idea of attending some of those meetings. Kirilas felt as though almost anything balanced on the knife-edge of treason these days. He'd said as much, to the king's soldiers who had come. He wasn't a fool. This wasn't the T'Telir of his boyhood, the city of colours, of laughter. This was a grimmer, darker T'Telir, and he felt the shadow of the executioner's blade hang over his head as he answered their questions. No, he didn't know of any foreign infiltrators. Of course, as a loyal citizen, he would bring word to the king's spymaster immediately. Hadn't he always known it was his duty? And then: Elandera. She had been asking, ever so carefully, after some of the investigations that were happening, and something deep in Kirilas felt that something wasn't quite right, and now he wondered if the war had twisted them all, had made it so that right was wrong and wrong was right, and which was was which, he didn't know anymore. They'd executed her, for having fallen in with the revolutionaries. They'd toyed with it, both of them. He'd walked close to the shadow of death today, felt the executioner's sword kiss his neck and then draw back. She'd attended the meetings, the ones that you only knew about in whispers. And he had stayed home, quietly, tending to his cafe. And she was dead, now. And he was alive. And perhaps he had played some small role in her death. Kirilas left the cup before the empty chair at the empty table; a place for friends dead and gone, and went to sleep. The cafe may be closed but my PMs are open for casual banter with anyone who would like a cup of hot tea and a pastry!

The only thing that is staying my hand right now is the fact that I don't want to vote a neutral just for lying about their wincon. I'm aware of what certain bros of mine would say but you're playing me right here and right now, and not him. I frankly don't buy this, and for the amount that Steel has harped about his game design and the interactions between seven factions, and how he wants the full fifteen to have all the factions in this game, I especially don't buy that your wincon is what you say it is. If the Cult has the wincon we've theorised, it would potentially shift my view, but even then, not necessarily so. There's very little at stake with a simple "keep one Returned alive" wincon. But I don't want to vote a neutral for lying. Plain and simple, it's a bad precedent for the community. That's what pulled me off Devo in MR56 even though it was blatantly obvious that killing at least one Village Epic and at least one Evil Epic was so bloody simple in a game chock-full of Epics that shooting blind would've finished that wincon in a number of cycles. It wasn't a viable wincon, and I don't really think yours is, either. But a paranoia lynch is not where I want to go. I'll take the L if I have to, and if it kills my faction, then I'm sorry to them, though I suppose they can make their own decisions. So be it. If your actual wincon is hostile, and we get screwed over, then that's just how it's going to be. I'm not going to waste my energy chasing down this lynch further. Xino Elan Edited to add: Ok. One last venture and I'm done. Suppose the Cult has to kill all the Returned. Do they get a special kill to do this? Because if they have to kill all the Returned, what's stopping you and your secret buddy from just camping out and repeatedly protecting that one Returned? Returned already have an extra life due to being of the Fifth Heightening. Does the Cult have a special, unblockable kill? If so, then pardon my Alethi, but that's a bloody pointless protect you have there, then! Does the Cult need to ally with the Elims? That's odd, isn't it? That the Cult absolutely has to ally with the Elims to have a prayer of victory? What if the Elims say no? Is the Cult just screwed then? How does railroading the Cult into allying with the Elims make sense in this game landscape? I submit that postulating the Cult wants to kill all Returned doesn't actually make it very much better. I don't think that's what's going on here, period. Edited to add 2: Let's not forget the Elims already have a natural ally in the Revolutionaries. We're looking at two factions who are immediate, ready allies to the Elims. That's just kayana.

Hi. I was supposed to sleep. But I guess that's not happening. Gotta love insomnia-driven voting amirite. I have thought about this. And the tunnel has slowly materialised, and dragged me into it. Here's my problem with Mat's claim: It's too simple. I think we're missing the point. I think there's a world in which Mat is truthful about being Edgli and also an Elim. I think there's a world in which Mat is lying about being Edgli but Edgli has a vested interest in not clearing this up, whether because of an alliance or otherwise. (Mat's actual faction might not mind - many factions have a vested interest in concealing their members.) I think there's a world in which Mat is truthful about being Edgli and not an Elim. I don't actually care which world we're in. What I do care about is that wincon doesn't sound right. This is a faction game. Wincons are constructed for faction interaction. Factions serve as a check on each other. They have motivations which drive them to ally with each other and to move against each other. So. How does a faction who wants at least one Returned to stay alive win? They have a protect. What's to stop them from turtling this game out? If the wincon is purely Returned survival, don't you think that's odd? Each of the Scholars are special Returned. There are probably multiple Returned in this game. It's my same issue with Devo's MR56 wincon: it's bloody simple. There's little incentive to interact. The wincon, on the face of it, requires one Returned to stay alive by endgame. That's it. One Returned. No mention of Mat or his teammate. Look at the primary factions. The other survival wincon we know of involves the Royals and is a lot more involved than 'just keep one Royal alive' by endgame. It also has a natural opposition: the Royalists want living Royals, the Elims and the Revolutionaries want dead Royals. Is this a wincon that fits into the landscape of the game as we know it? Maybe. I'll be fair - it's D1 and we know very little. But I point out that all of the worlds above don't tell us anything at all about if Mat is being truthful about his wincon, and I point out that if I were in his shoes and had a wincon that could potentially be taken the wrong way by other players, I too, would conceal it under a beguilingly simple lie. This doesn't make sense, and I don't like this, and I'm a hair away from just saying "screw it" and voting Mat.

Mat Xino

Xino Mat

Gonna suggest waiting a day or two more but if no one else on the list sounds off, then you take the game. If you need to shorten sign-ups a bit to make it work, do it.

I feel like claiming D1 is not going to solve anything unless you intend to claim a role several factions want dead >> In which case, yeah, please just don't even interact with this statement >> Of course you could faction claim, but that has the same issue in terms of where other factions see their interests lie. For the record, I'm not really getting any strong vibes one way or another off your posts just yet, but I've never been much for reading posts without voting history. I don't feel particularly like there's a compelling reason to vote for [Edit: you, and the post reads feel very D1 which tracks with the fact that we're on D1, so maybe that's behind my ambivalence.] What's interesting is that this is compatible with being a member of a faction who'd rather everyone focus on the Elims - the question then is: what faction flourishes or thrives if attention goes primarily on the Elims? Getting weak SK type playstyle vibes off this, which feeds into my concerns about potential SK presence in this game. But I think this is compatible with Sart being right. I've said this in a few PMs: in MR1, we kept to our own docs and refused interfaction communication, though the lack of PMs absolutely did not help. The result was that Sart, Wyrm, and their teammates murdered us all, and they didn't even have a kill at first! Their infiltration and information advantage was just that strong, as was our laser focus on inter-faction warfare first. Between a SK and an Elim, I'd go for an Elim first, due to threat prioritisation, but I wanted to flag this anyway. I'm fine with the current state of the votes.

Alright, technically we're not supposed to edit votes in, so: Xino Gonna open a non-Stick, non-Mat option. Lesgo.

Two separate functions.

Exactly my point. I wouldn't discount cooperation or a commitment to it - it's certainly possible it's not the route they'll take because it's too fragile and too at the mercy of lots of factors, but it's not exactly Mission Impossible either. If anything, I just want to counsel wariness because some factions have multiple routes to their wincons. Not realising that can get us shanked in the back. Interfactional backstabbing is not necessarily any of my business but I don't want to count on the Elims being divided from the other factions because I feel they can snowball their power really easily and so we have to be cautious of that and the dynamic with other factions.

I don't really care what anyone is gonna think about this. If you are a conversion faction and you change wincons, keep your damn hands off me and let me die in peace >> It's not every game I get a wincon I can live with, go find someone else's life to ruin and to force them to betray their faction and whatnot. Obligatory go away notice.