Pathfinder

Because I already said why I do not think everyone is doing it. You disagree. Me repeating it will accomplish nothing. Because your argument is based on it being equal to or less when you do not know that. In algebra you still need some values to base your calculations on. That is great, but again you do not know that. We have no evidence in book to say that whatsoever. Again we have nothing to base that on to even go on conjecture.

To me that only occurs if everyone is doing it. You don't know what the value of marble mined is on Roshar. You do not know the comparative worth a topaz is per however amount of mined marble there is. You don't know how much marble can be produced per gemstone before it shatters. So to me, I think it is a bit of a leap to assume a lot of the above. Based on what I have read in the novels, to me, as I have explained, Lin Davar is a unique circumstance. You started this thread trying to find a good solution to what you feel is a discrepancy. I offered one. You disagree. To each their own.

To clarify my statements I will bullet point them: 1. value of type gemstones are based on what they can create. Food is the most valuable to the Alethi due to their warmachine that has been commented on in the books 2. As Calderis mentioned, we have no indication on the amount that can be soulcasted based on a gemstone per gemstone basis. Larger gemstones seem to be able to soulcast an unlimited supply, so that does not seem (to me) to be the limiting factor on soulcasting. 3. Soulcaster the fabrial are rare, and tightly controlled via the Ardentia, and the nobility that owns them. That the king "allows" Jasnah to walk around with one is considered unique. The individual we see having a soulcaster with Szeth works for Taravangian and a secret organisation of the Diagram. Kaza was a relative to a ruler, and was for all intents and purposes imprisoned to be used as a tool with a death sentence. The war machine that is the Alethi moves on its stomach. The king controls the soulcasters they own to provide food and some resources, while taxing the highprinces for the privilege of using them. 4. Lin Davar is a minor noble in a backwater location. He is not a king with such access. It does not mention anything on his estate having been soulcasted. Conversely, the king's home is soulcasted. 5. Topaz is worth less than emeralds. We disagree on how much can be made from a gemstone. I state we do not know yet. You seem to state you do know. I disagree. So in conclusion, I do not think we can base soulcaster usage and prevalence based on a King of a militarily ruled kingdom that takes up a fifth to a quarter of the continent in comparison to a minor noble in a backwater location of Jah Keved.

The point of me mentioning it, was that art is subject to the whims of the culture, the time period, and those with money. I gave the example of a mansion where the edifices looked like marble, but it was regular plaster painted by french artists, because at the time it was the height of fashion to spend tons of money on artists to go through the trouble of making something fake, rather than spending money that was cheaper to get actual marble that could be acquired locally. So to me just as easily could nobility see the grain of wood, and pay through the nose to get the real stuff so that not only is the grain or finger tips are not evident, but that they can genuinely say it is the legit bonafide marble. The noble in Kholinar in Oathbringer lamented the loss of a rug because the weaver was blind and it was one of his last works. So for me it could swing either way, and it probably has on multiple occasions. In the warcamps, during a 6 year war, rations made by soulcasters because there aren't any farming structure (Sebarial's is done is secret, while it is stated no other highprince has made such an effort), coupled with the entire contest being fueled to get large emeralds to continue to feed their army states why. The herdazians are taking standard issue rations, and adding seasoning and spices (which aren't available via soulcasting, as soulcast food is bland), elevates it to street food. So once again, when you have a military structure, that needs to exist without supply lines, food and thereby emeralds are king. edit: further you are comparing a King's access to feeding his armies to win the vengeance pact during wartime, vs a backwoods noble that is down on his luck gaining access to a soulcaster to regain personal solvency. I do not think there is any way short of making a deal with a secret organization for Lin Davar to get his hands on a soulcaster and do as he planned.

Apparently this is not as easy as you say, considering Jasnah comments in the vision how she can see that the armor is soulcasted from clay due to the finger prints still showing on the metal. Regardless it does not change that the availability of the soulcasters being so low that it prevents an economic break down.

My thinking is just like how there is still a market for food despite soulcasting due to the taste, that the same would stand for other resources. Could you make a wonderful work of art out of a malleable material and then soulcast it? Sure! But you need a high ranking lighteyes that owns an ardent and a soulcaster to spend the money to commission you, and have the ardent transform the work of art. Add that whatever material you use is still reflected in the final product. So marble statues that were once wood show the grain of the wood. If you want a work of art without that, then you have to go the old fashioned way. Art can really go either way. Up in sleepy hallow there is a mansion where the furnishings look like rock and marble, but it was painted on because it was the height of class at the time to pay an artist to go through all the trouble of mimicking expensive materials rather than actually getting expensive materials. But regardless, at the end of the day, things hold the value we put on them. For a militaristic society that prizes being able to keep on the move without supply lines, then food is king. Regardless how quickly or not they wear out, emeralds will be of great importance so they are worth the most. The fact that although dangerous, it is possible to quarry materials, means it could potentially be cheaper than going to your local highlord and requesting permission to use his or her soulcaster. This exact situation came up in Way of Kings. Sadeas had the only harvest-able forest near the shattered plains. He raised the tax for using that wood through the roof, so the other highprince would be dependent on soulcast wood which is the roundabout way the king taxes the highprinces. So supply from soulcasters is not as prevalent as I think you think. Sure you can switch among people and potentially make it last longer, but the number of soulcasters the fabrial itself, seems to be rather limited. Add to that certain soulcasters only soulcast certain essences, and there rarity is even greater. So I do not see marble being churned out at a huge rate to the point of it destroying the economy. Lin is a very special case because he had to make a deal with a secret organization that has access to resources cosmere wide in order to get his hands on a soulcaster to do as he planned. By all rights Lin as a back woods noble should have never been able to get access to the soulcaster to begin with. At least that is how I read the situation.

The Kaza interlude says to me that many would see this as an acceptable loss/risk. A relative to the ruler is treated as a tool to soulcast things to smoke to the extent that it is a death sentence to her, and that isn't even the most valuable essence compared to food. edit: also I believe a scene was quoted earlier in this thread regarding Kadash and Adolin. The increased necessity resulted in the soulcasters being overworked, with the result readily apparent in the stone skinned ardent.

We disagree on how spren function, which is fine, but I stated that to explain why I say, to me, with a spren I am still the master of my own decisions. Elantrian is limited even on the planet of origin, and we do not know how hacking the system to get off planet fully effects an elantrian vs a radiant. The closest we have seen is the IRE with their investiture drink. So for myself, I like the power system, the extras I get, and the buddy blade lol. So I still say elsecaller.

Take advantage of the divine pulse. Just keep in mind the result of any action remains the same, it just gives you the option of doing something else. (at least that is how it works with certification and the calendar.). To say it another way, if I go to certify Bernadetta into wyvern lord with a 46 percent chance of succeeding, and it fails, if I reload that save, it will still fail, every single time. I have to wait till next week to try again and possibly succeed. I have tested it to a degree with the divine pulse and it seems to work similarly. If an attack missed and then you divine pulse, it will still miss if you do the same thing. You have to select a different power for a chance at a different result. So move your weaker ones in to attack. If it goes poorly, divine pulse, and try to kite the enemy with your stronger ones, and send in the weaker ones to finish them off. Edit: also I believe depending on your difficulty level, you can do battles on the weekends that do not take activity points. Apparently according to some places I have read, if you play that type of map till your characters are just about to die, and then use the retreat command on the menu, you keep all the XP you gained, but you didn't lose anyone and can then replay the map to do it all over again. So you could rinse repeat that to grind your weak ones up to the same level as your strong ones, and be balanced.

Elsecaller as always. Regeneration, armor, sword, teleportation, and matter transformation. All awesome to me.

If you check out the thread that animalia linked, there are numerous examples of jasnah being empathic to others including strangers and even the human race on whole.

@Karger it seems I am going to have to add this to your thread of things that keep coming up. Jasnah did not kill the men for a philosophical lesson. She genuinely felt she was doing good by Taravangian and the city. I will be happy to add the quotes later if requested. Way of Kings Page 535 "I did not do this just to prove a point, child. I have been feeling for some time that I took advantage of His Majesty's hospitality. he doesn't realize how much trouble he coudlf ace for allying himself with me. Besides, men like those...." Way of Kings Page 588 "if it helps you wrestle with your feelings, child, understand that I was trying to do good. I sometimes wonder if I should accomplish more with my Soulcaster"

Totally respect your right to not like Shallan. Just wanted to point out three things: 1. If she just released the slaves, they would get recaptured as they still had their slave debt on file. She got their writ, and offered to pay off a large chunk of it in exchange for their service. She had the Kholins confirm it when she went to get the deserters pardoned. So I interpreted it as her doing the best within the system to free them, and prevent them from ever being taken as slaves again. 2. Tlakv was eyeing her for what he could get out of her. He would have left her to die, or robbed and killed her if she hadn't convinced him that she was someone influential and that there was someone willing to pay a handsome reward. So enslavement or not, he was not a very upstanding guy. 3. the forum rules frown on double posting. No worries, you are new so don't stress it. If you think of more to add, just go to your prior post, and hit the edit button. You can then add more of your thoughts.

Which house did you play? Because I am playing black eagles, and I believe I am at the last mission and

Had a whole thread about how an elsecaller is potentially the perfect crime. Elsecall to the cognitive realm. Make sure no sapient spren are hanging around. Find sadeas's flame. Soulcast him to air. Then transfer back to physical elsewhere. Done. Untraceable.

Jasnah and Dalinar from what they said seemed to have thought moving Sadeas's forces to prevent problems at Urithiru as absolutely necessary. Quote below showing Amaram's army is camped at Thaylenah, so they are present for extended occupation. Oathbringer page 1035 "We shored up positions where the wall was weakened" Amaram continued gesturing. "It's not high by Kholinar standards, but is an impressive fortification nonetheless. We cleared out the buildings right inside to provide a staging and resource dumps, and my army is camped there." Quote below showing that it is Kholin troops in Jah Keved, while Amaram's are in Theylenah. Oathbringer page 1036 "The city looks far better" Dalinar said "Your men did well" "Then maybe our penance can be over" Amaram said. he said it straight, though angerspren - a pool of boiling blood - spread from beneath his right foot. "Your work here was important, soldier. You didn't only rebuild a city; you built the trust of the Thaylen people." "Of course." Amaram added, more softly "And I do see the tactical importance of knowing the enemy fortifications." You fool. "The Thaylens are not our enemies." "I misspoke" Amaram said. "Yet I cannot ignore that the Kholin troops have been deployed to the border between out kingdom and Jah Keved. Your men get to liberate our homeland, while mine spend their day digging in rocks." Oathbringer page 584 By spanreed reports, the Voidbringers were slowly moving northward, and had captured much of Alethkar. Relis Ruthar had tried to gather the remaining Alethi forces in the country, but had been pushed back towards Herdaz, suffering at the hands of the fused. I disagree, but I respect your opinion, and wish you luck with your theory! From what I have read, yes she has a skeleton group of people (carpenters, personal guard, camp followers, etc), but the army of soldiers were with Amaram. I keep coming back to the Tower. How empty the Kholin warcamp was, and devastated by the losses, and yet Dalinar still had the troops he left at the warcamp, and patrolled the area for bandits to draw upon, not to mention the influx of bridgemen. Ialai does not have that. So in my opinion, she has no army to speak of. But to each their own. North Korea seems to show you can. People who travel to there, and get locked up, and tortured, can't expect help from their country of origin for fear of starting a war. People are terrified of rising up, because the military will come in, arrest you, and you will never be seen again. People try to flee through China, and South Korea to the point that there is a constant military presence at the boarders, patrolling to apprehend anyone escaping. Without his military, the ruler of North Korea wouldn't last a day.

Mobility? Could you elaborate? Because the oathgate is large enough to transport Dalinar's entire army, as well as the other armies that accompanied him to the shattered plains. So I do not see how that would limit the number of Sadeas soldiers in Thaylenah. Sadeas pulled up roots and left the Shattered plains. Only one or two highprinces remained. Dalinar was trying to keep a military force at Narak which composed his own forces. Not Sadeas's men. Sadeas soldiers were sent to Thaylenah to keep them out of Urthiru and prevent them from getting into fights with the Kholin soldiers. If a large portion of the force was still at Urthiru, that would defeat the purpose of sending them to Thaylenah. The point was to get the Sadeas soldiers out from under foot, prevent fighting between soldiers of different houses, and repair Thaylenah restoring good will with their allies. Sadeas no longer had a presence on the shattered plains, so that is out. Alethkar is an occupied country, so that is out. And they weren't at Urithiru because that would defeat the whole point in sending them to Thaylenah. So for myself, Ialai's entire main force was at Theylenah, and were either killed, fled with Odium's forces, or were apprehended after the battle. So to me, the Sadeas princedom is broken. Which is why Ialai fled Urithiru in disgrace. To me, based on how the Alethi structure works of might (military) makes right, Ialai wouldn't have had to go anywhere if she actually had a large enough force backing her for her to be a threat. Dalinar held back with Sadeas repeatedly because he knew if he and Sadeas went to war, it would tear the kingdom apart because they each had the largest armies. When Dalinar lost a large portion of his soldiers at the Tower, again he had to eat crow, because he did not have the military might to back him, and to me he would have had far more soldiers at that point, than Ialai does, because he did not field his entire army at the tower. It is commented in the book how a third to a half of his troops are used to police the warcamps, patrol the outer reaches of the shattered plains for bandits, and also staff Elhokar's personal guard. Add to that, he bought the bridgemen from Sadeas, and he was still straining from lack of soldiers. Ialai does not have any of this. So to me, her army is broken, her land is lost, and her soldiers are traitors to the crown and the coalition. That seems to me to be a metaphorical death. To me, not every villain has to physically die for their story to end. edit: could you quote where they have a presence in Jah Keved? Amaram kept complaining about how his troops were not allowed there. How that was where the battle would take place, and he and his men deserve to be part of the glory. Dalinar said it was important for them to do good work in Thaylenah. Amaram accused Dalinar of pushing off his best general and men out of fear like Sadeas did. So I do not recall it being stated there was a Sadeas soldier presence in Jah Keved as of the time of the battle of Theylenah And for myself they do not have to admit anything. They are either dead, joined up with Odium, or in prison for attacking and killing their own allies. Thank you But that does not change that the ruler still has a very powerful military complex still in control. If his army fell apart to the extent of Ialai (in my opinion), then the people could rise up in rebellion with aid from South Korea. But as long as the north korean military has an iron hold over every aspect of its populace's life, things are going to remain the same. Thanks!

Except, in my opinion she has no resources to inspire confidence in allies, and given the sheer number of witnesses, anything she says other than the truth will readily be apparent as lies. As Mage mentioned, anyone who would actually believe her to work with her, wouldn't care to begin with. They would be working with her because they think they could gain an advantage from doing so. Not because they actually believed in her "cause". And I do not believe she has any resources to offer to be of advantage to anyone. The sadeas princedom's army was primarily kept in Thaylenah for repairing. What happened at Thalenah is bigger than the Tower. Dalinar had a good chunk of his troops patroling and keeping the peace when the Tower happened, so although his army was devastated, he still had troops. Sadeas's princedom was doing no such thing. So I disagree that there is this great army still hanging around under the sadeas banner. Considering they were the ones that did it. To clarify: Opinion: I think more will come of Ialai. I think she will do this or that vs Brandon generally writes a certain way, so Ialai would have something happen. One takes the narrative, the other implies that the author acts in a certain way, and in order for the author to act in a certain way to be true, then a certain narrative must occur. To clarify, there are people who theorize certain things will happen with Adolin. That is great and well. But there are also people who say the story would be lacking if those things they theorize didn't happen. That implies that disagreement with those theories, or other theories are lacking when they are just as possible. So feel free to have your opinion based on the book, but in my opinion, Ialai leaving the narrative where she did at the end of oathbringer does not equate with her just walking out of the narrative. What happened to her was plenty in my mind. An army that is either dead, fled with Odium, or captured after having just attacked their own allies. North Korea at the moment is still quite solvent and the leader still has an iron grip over his country unfortunately. That is not Ialai. It was already discussed over the course of the novels. Elhokar couldn't touch Sadeas because of the weight he carried. He had allies, the resources, and the army to back it up. Ialai has lost all of that. The other nobles would be committing "suicide" allying with her against Jasnah and they know it. That's why they all were so surprised/scared when Jasnah was named queen. What it comes down to is we disagree on the resources Ialai has access to. I don't believe she has the means to attract support. I wish you luck with your theory!

Right, so he is burning through gold quickly to then restore his stores, to then continually tap. He has to be burning a lot, if there he needs a backer to keep him well stocked. That is all I was saying. I will need to dig for the WoB, but Kelsier was a savant. That is how he was able to push on different parts of the steel rod. Savantism and how it works is now in flux, that is why I feel it is too early to say for sure Miles was or was not an allomantic gold savant. That is a discussion you and Quantus/Truthwatcher can continue to argue. Not saying I disagree with you or agree with you. Just was commenting on those two points. And my point is since the "signs" of a savant is currently in flux, I think it is too early to state whether or not Miles was or was not one.

Also to add, regarding chain of causation, this does not matter. There was a case (the one I referenced regarding the ticket), where the driver was recorded running the red light. You clearly see it was not the owner of the car. The owner of the car made a big deal about how he was out of the country and there was no way he could have been driving the vehicle. The judge calmly asked, does the owner agree that the car in the video is his? The owner replied yes. The license plate matches the owners? Owner replies yes. The drive is the owner's employee? The owner replied yes. The employee drove the car with the owner's knowledge and permission? Owner again said yes. But again said he wasn't the one that drove the car so shouldn't be liable. The judge said exactly what I just said to you. The driver had the owner's permission to use the car. Doesn't matter whether the driver admits to doing it or not. The driver could not have committed the crime that resulted in that specific ticket, if it was not for the owner of the car allowing him to drive the car. That is what chain of causation is. Does not matter if the perpetrator claims ownership of the crime. If the crime could not have occurred, had the actions of another individual not taken place, then that other individual is held liable.

Dalinar was not the one that was the reason the Sadeas soldiers switched sides. Chain of Causation deals with the "but for" test. Sadeas's soldiers being at the Thaylen city was not the reason why they attacked their allies. Amaram was. Who placed Amaram in that role? Ialai. Sadeas's soldiers would not have switched sides is not for Amaram. Amaram would not have been in command if not for Ialai. The soldiers spoke in a lucid manner to Navani, and the other rulers. That soldier was excited over the idea of turning them over to Amaram. Nothing in that scene portrays a soldier struggling against orders given. The bridge crews and how they were treated by Sadeas's soldiers say to me they are for the most part a sadistic group of thugs led by terrible leaders. And again that is a false equivalency. You personally view Ialai as needing more. That does not mean it has to be so cut and dry. Personally I think how Ialai went out is perfectly in line with Sanderson. Plenty of other characters have gone off without dying or having to do something. Again, you are perfectly entitled to think more will happen with Ialai, but that does not mean that is the only result. Except for as I said, other rulers personally experienced it. No propaganda required. The Alethi system deals with might makes right. Ialai has no might. The Kholins have all the might. And they do have laws that are used to "rationalize" actions. If a lord falls out of favor, the king or queen can seize their lands and title, imprison them, and gift such lands and title to another. It happened all the time on our planet. Ialai is head of a princedom that for all intents and purposes had an insurrection. It was stopped, and the leaders were punished. I have and responded.

Ok. My point was regardless what effect we see on Miles, considering Wax and Kelsier, the lack thereof, or less extent of the effect of savantism, is not enough to discount savantism. Or to put it another way, considering Wax and Kelsier have no outward signs of savantism, then regardless whether Miles exhibits signs or not, does not preclude him from being a savant.

It is called chain of causation. If I loan you my keys to my car, and then you while driving get a speeding ticket, I am the one that has to pay the ticket and is held liable. I in good conscious, trusted you with my vehicle. A reasonable individual would only entrust their vehicle with someone who would not abuse the law. Thus if the law is broken while you use my car, I am held liable because I gave you the keys and the ability to break the law. That is the law on the books. Ialai chose Amaram to lead the princedom. He would not have been calling the shots had she not selected him. The actions he takes breaking Alethi law, she is held liable for. She in good conscious entrusted her princedom to him. She should have vetted him better. Thus if Amaram takes actions in the capacity as Sadeas, Ialai is liable. As I said, given what happened, Jasnah is perfectly within rights to seize all assets. Except the other countries rulers also witnessed the entire Sadeas army rise up, and attack their own people. A Sadeas soldier literally stated in view of two rulers how Highprince Amaram would love to get his hands on them, before Navani used her painrial to knock him out. That is a false equivalency. You are entitled to your opinion that more might happen with her, but my opinion that there won't does not mean she "just walked out of the story". Her entire princedom was disgraced and she fled. She didn't do any walking.

Well my personal view on the matter colors my answer, so let me preface my response that I totally accept and acknowledge others theorize that there would be ramifications. As for myself I do not think it matters. Ialai's time has come and gone. The purpose of the character for the narrative no longer needed, and the character's story itself has ended (in my opinion). So where is she now? Not Urithiru. What will she do? Try to survive during the end of the world like anyone else. To me Ialai is not needed now that Taravangian, Odium, the Fused, and Moash have come more to the fore. But again, totally get and appreciate that others think something does have to happen with Ialai.

He being Kelsier, Wax or Miles? Not sure which one you are referring to.