Pathfinder

Jasnah noticed there was resistance in the illusions. Initially she assumed it was Shallan combining transformation and illumination, but then theorized that perhaps the stormlight just provided some resistance. This for me could mean one of three things (numbering just for my own organizational sense) 1. Jasnah knows Lightweavers can combine the surges to make solid illusions, and assumed that was what Shallan did, but realized she did not, and was not capable of it yet 2. Jasnah theorized that since the illusions had some resistance, that Shallan was combining transformation and illumination, but realized she was in error, and that it is due to stormlight, and lightweavers cannot make solid illusions at all 3. Jasnah theorized that since the illusions had some resistance, that Shallan was combining transformation and illumination, but realized she was in error, and that it is due to stormlight, but we can later find out lightweavers can in fact make solid illusions. Personally I lean towards number 1 but I believe the jury is still out. Though we do know lightweavers could potentially make lasers, so although not analoguous, I think if they were capable of that, I would imagine they could be capable of more. Now what I write is assuming number 1 is correct (which I know we do not know, but I like to throw ideas around). If lightweavers can make solid illusions (which I think they can), then I think the creative artists that make up the order could result in something very similar to the Nightmother. Acting as the "summoners" of the knights radiant. I think it would be really cool for a lightweaver to create a solid illusion of a chasmfiend to fight with a thunderclast. But perhaps that is wishful thinking. edit: I am pulling up the scene now, seems Shallan was the one that assumed she was combining the surges. One moment please

Not to be obtuse, but could you tell me where you read that? Cause I cannot recall. I don't remember it saying anywhere that you were either spiked fully, or not at all, and the reason for that was to keep hemalurgy a secret. So genuinely asking Guess I respect that you find it implausible. For myself, I think it is perfectly plausible. To me they have the resources, they have the means, they have the infrastructure, and they have the reason to. But I guess to each their own. Right. That is after Ruin was freed and he was controlling Marsh. Which is what I thought I said. That when Ruin started manipulating, and controlling the inquisitors, Marsh changed. But prior to that, which is what was normal at the time, Marsh was still Marsh. The Lord Ruler was still alive, and still keeping Ruin in check. Which would be the scenario that would be in existence had Vin been a spy. The other two houses that wanted to ally with Elend? I forget the house names exactly. I think Lukiel or Tekiel? One of them was certainly weak and easily manipulated. He was the one that ultimately got his hands on the koloss, and was intimidated by Elend. I think the other one is pretty plausible too. To me, comparing a torch to a campfire if mishandled still gets you burned. Personally that does not change Kelsier's focus on killing anyone associated with the nobility, and personally that does not change that I feel Kelsier could have accomplished his goals and not result in as much collateral damage. Had the guard not known Kelsier was there at all it would have been even safer. The hazekillers would not have been alerted and surrounded Kelsier. He could have gotten in and out without a single casualty. Personally I think that would have been safer. And I argue he could have accomplished that without the wanton death of the guards. He could have stole the atium, and killed specifically nobility in their beds, and accomplished the same goal without the collateral damage of the guards. In my opinion. Marsh disagreed. Marsh stated it was always about Kelsier and his ego/revenge. Kelsier claimed it was not. But to me his actions speak otherwise. Just for my recollection could you reference the scene? I don't see that I am thinking more or less of a narcissistic sociopath. I see it as I am trying to look at his actions objectively, in view of the character, and those actions and outlook in view of what type of person would do these things. (not saying anyone else is not looking at it objectively. Just how I would term my own reading). i think kelsier had a host of options, but he chose the most bloody and the one with the greatest collateral damage. I think that speaks a lot to the type of person he is.

And they looked for those among the main group where that would be found. Nobility. I guess I just do not see how it would be so far fetched that the Steel Ministry that gathers mistings and mistborn from the nobility to join its ranks would have a problem picking a woman and either giving her discrete spikes to provide a few powers to register as a mistborn, or use a mistborn to infiltrate and dismantle the resistance. It is for you. I guess to each their own. From what I remember after he was just changed, he was still Marsh. It wasn't till Ruin really started to move, manipulate and ultimately was freed that Marsh changed. Marsh was certainly still himself enough to betray the steel inquisition and kill a number of his brothers as well as attempt to kill the lord ruler. Personally I disagree. Through use of a noble figure head, with back ally dealings, and bribes, he could make what was once a minor house into a power house. That house could then be used to enact change. Now as I said to begin with, this change will be limited due to the Lord Ruler, but that still does not change to me that Kelsier could have taken a whole bunch of actions not as lethal and wanton, and still accomplish his goals. Still confused. What does that have to do with his view that if you have anything to do with the nobility, you will die? Kelsier did that mission to steal atium. When he entered the grounds, he literally landed right near a guard surprising the guard. He then pulled on the armor and slit the guards throat. Personally I think he could have gotten over that wall all without the guard seeing him. And had he done so, he would not have gotten attacked by the hazekillers, resulting in him having to rip the entire safe out. He would have had the time to break in more subtly and get what he needed. But the first one didn't get a chance to think even once. Actually the first 11 as per Marsh. Little confused on this one too. Vin approached the lord ruler's palace. She muses that Kelsier would have just gone up and killed them as he went in. In fact he did the last time he went in. Vin on the other hand gave them a chance to leave. Which they took. Are you suggesting that a rioting group approaching the palace would have attacked and killed them? Maybe. But had Vin not succeeded, then the inquisitors or the lord ruler would have shown up outside the palace and massacred the rioters. So for myself, the only differing factor in that scene is where Kelsier would have callously and without thought murdered them as being in the way. Vin gave them a choice, and they took it. Personally that is not the way I would put it, but it may result in just arguing semantics so I guess?

Personally I disagree. We know there are female inquisitors. We know there are female mistborn (Shan) as well as female mistings in noble houses. We know Inquisitors recruit from noble houses, and we know inquisitors prefer mistings/mistborn. So for myself, I do not see female misting/mistborn agents being in short supply. I know when Ruin was released Marsh was controlled and pushed, but he still held his usual self. Can you show me where this has come up? (just genuinely asking to learn something new) Ok then I guess. Kelsier could have manipulated the system, and used a "noble" as a puppet, and to me, accomplish far more. Honestly again I am confused. When was Kelsier running for political office? I do recall him turning the houses against each other, but that could easily be accomplished without taking guard's lives, and leaving a bloody trail. Still confused about the political point thing you are stating. As to the fighting against me versus for me, when did the guard he pushed off the wall have a chance to decide? He was just working to provide for all we know for his family. He didn't get a chance to find out there was a rebellion forming. He didn't get a chance to decide to follow Kelsier or not. Vin muses that Kelsier would have killed the guard to the Lord Ruler's palace. That guard that she spared. That guard that ended up voluntarily leaving, and joining the skaa. That guard that ended up passing along the message that helped save the world. Now again I am not equating save a life, save the world. But for myself at least, I feel it is written pretty clearly in the books regarding Kelsier. You don't get a choice. You don't get a chance. If you are associated with the nobility, you are worthy of death. Kelsier will kill you, even if he does not have to. He could have easily gained entry to that nobles home without killing that guard, but he chose to be bloody. Marsh comments as much. Killing guards and civilians on Kelsier's part, to me, is deliberate and a choice. The society and economy does not force him to push a guard to his death versus using another piece of metal to push off of. But again, I am just responding to your comments to my reading of the character. I do not wish to belabor the point or take over the conversation.

So far both pairs are working great for me. Everyone targets Rapheal, and he takes no damage, while Leonie has the range to attack back while remaining adjacent to him, keeping the +2 dmg for being next to a male ally. My Sylvain so far has been a great off tank with -2 damage received, and really dishing out the damage with +5 on all attacks (+2 from being next to female, +3 from Hilda for her being adjacent to male) while he is adjacent with Hilda. I actually have to be careful with both pairs so my other characters have a chance to kill and level lol. Lol thank you. She is also eagerly awaiting (but also dreading) the release of Final Fantasy 7 remake. She has been waiting so long she is afraid they will mess it up. Meanwhile I am excited over any details for Bravely Default 2. I really hope they go a similar route with the jobs as they did in Bravely Second. I loved how creative and unique the Ghost job and the Exorcist played. Tanking via possession, and healing via "denying" a previous turn was really great imagery and flavor.

I guess, but for myself that does not change that demonstrates the capabilities for espionage and detection. For myself, just because they may focus more on one group overtly than another, does not for myself preclude their effectiveness with another. But that is just my own understanding of it. Just to clarify, I am not saying the steel ministry is incompetent nor am I saying Kelsier is incompetent. For myself, you can be completely competent in your field and still be outmaneuvered by someone else. I believe for an organization to be as extensive as the steel ministry, that spies in the underground would be par for the course. I also believe for a thief that is able to operate right under the lord ruler's nose for ages, and only got caught when he got greedy and went after the lord ruler himself, that Kelsier could if he wanted to, make plans to minimize fatalities. But not only did he not go that route, he as per his own words, enacted a campaign of death to any associated with the nobility. He actively chose that route when he did not have to. I will quote Marsh below regarding your later comments for reference. But again, just responding to your query to me, and explaining my own understanding. I do not wish to belabor any points. True, though nobility normally under go that to snap. They are beat within an inch of their lives to see if they are allomancers. As to malnutrition and a host of other problems, Vin was low key burning pewter. Dockson/Kelsier comments on this. That she was doing it without realizing it and that helped her deal with the beatings. But as evidenced by the Inquistor leader, there is at least one example of an inquisitor eagerly wanting to join the ranks. Marsh is unique in that he is the only one of the group that rebelled. The Lord Ruler was surprised because he saw it as making him better. The leader of the inquisitors seems to share this view. So you have acolytes knowing what they are getting into, eagerly seeking power. For myself, if getting spikes driven through me is not enough to deter me from being an inquisitor, then a few months in deep cover would be a cake walk. From what I recall it is done at varying ages, but it is something that is expected, and they go into with eyes open. They know why it is done, and they take it as that's just what happened. It is viewed as normal. Right, she mitigated the effects with unconcious pewter burn. Why couldn't a real agent do that? I don't know, because I am genuinely confused. That is why I requested you explain what point you were getting at again. I figured I would ask you to clarify instead of just responding, so I could better respond. Honestly probably better than Elend. Not to be cynical, but it is demonstrated in the novels that his honesty is what doomed his rule. He could have not pointed out the loop hole in his re-election and he would have been the leader. He literally wrote the rules himself. He could have done all sorts of things, but he was very altruistic (which I think is a great quality) and it resulted in him getting kicked out. Kelsier I think could have accomplished far more with his manipulations, bribing, and back alley dealings. Used bribery and information to get snuck into places instead of bulling through head on. He is an assassin. A common challenge in stealth video games is those that go through killing everyone, and those who seek to "ghost" through, avoiding everyone except their target. Frequently you get additional points. Now life is not a video game, but does it not demonstrate true skill to get into someplace and get out all without a single sign of being there? Versus leaving a bloody trail in your wake? He ran plenty of jobs in the past without blood when he was just a normal skaa without his mistborn powers. Why couldn't he use his powers to accomplish less bloody goals? Or to put it another way, less collateral damage? Totally respect your view, but this quote says otherwise to me. He killed men, including skaa, all because they were employed by a nobleman. That was enough to damnation them. The man he is referring to that he pushed off a wall? All he was doing was standing on the wall, looking out. We don't know if that man beat up skaa. Or if that man went home to a family, and used the money to feed his kids. Kelsier could have easily snuck in without them knowing, but he chose to make a spectacle and make it bloody. I could pull up the scene and quote that too if you like. But again, that is just my own reading of the character. To each their own. "What is this?" Kelsier asked, picking it up "The names of the eleven men you slaughtered last night" Marsh said "I thought you might at least want to know" Kelsier tossed the paper into the crackling hearth "They served the Final Empire" "They were men, Kelsier" Marsh snapped "They had lives, families. Several of them were skaa" "Traitors" "People" Marsh said "people who were just trying to do the best with what life gave them" "Well, I'm just doing the same thing" Kelsier said "And, fortunately, life gave me the ability to push men like them off the tops of buildings. If they want to stand against me like noblemen, then they can die like noblemen"

"They're trained to recognize when an Allomancer tampers with their emotions" Allomancer for me includes both skaa and noble mistings. In pulling up the quote above, I found this quote below: "It seemed that the Steel Ministry caught up with everyone eventually. Sometimes, Kelsier felt that a skaa Misting's life wasn't so much about surviving as it was about picking the right time to die" So it seems to me a good amount of the Steel Ministry's spies must be doing something right. Every member of the ministry endures facial tattoos just to join. Those are not painless. Inquisitors get spikes driven through them. Nobles (where the obligators normally get their their recruits) get beat to near death on the chance of snapping them for allomancy. Personally I do not see what Vin went through as too much for a spy of the Steel Ministry to go through. Sorry, still genuinely confused as to the point you are trying to make. Could you explain it again? Kelsier was able to have a noble attend court and make alliances. He successfully started a house war just on rumors. Personally I think Kelsier would have been very capable of using his money and resources to manipulate the political structure. There is always the lord ruler who prevents any true peaceful over turn, but to me that does not change that Kelsier could have used his resources to make his moves less bloody. And it certainly doesn't change his outlook that if you have anything to do with the nobles, regardless whether you are noble or skaa yourself, you deserve to die. But that is just my personal reading of the character and the books. To each their own.

Just for reference I am referring to this scene: "And - he hated to confront this one - it looked like the Venture boy was king. When Kelsier realized this, he was so angry he spent days away from the pulses. They'd gone and put a nobleman in charge. Yes, Kelsier had saved this man's life. Against his better judgement he'd rescued the man that Vin loved." That says to me he regretted it. That his "better judgement" was for Elend to die. And that he only acted against this "better judgement" because of Vin. But to each their own. Personally I disagree. But to each their own. The crew was able to get Marsh inserted into the canton with faked papers. For myself I see no reason why such a powerful institution could not do the same. The inquisition knew of such possibilities as they trained their obligators to recognize when soothing is done to them. And they are canny enough to hide this realization till they could mobilize a response to utterly destroy any resistance. Personally I do not think it is far fetched to think that the inquisition would have spies. As to what more would Kelsier need to know? Vin should have been vetted like the rest of the crew. Her history looked into and confirmed. Vin has moved constantly due to Reen. Camon is only the most recent. She literally just appeared, and was "abandoned" by her brother. Just like how Valette is a "distant cousin" who came to luthadel to see the sights. What little kelsier knew about Vin, to me could have easily been doctored. That's what I said? Prior you said they didn't know how obligators worked. I said they did. Now you are saying they knew quite a bit. Now I am confused I guess, but the scene I read had Marsh being thorough and as Kelsier joked "you over achiever you". Marsh showed how much he knew and that caused him to be fast tracked. "It went fine" Marsh said tersely "Too well, actually - I think I might have distinguished myself from the group. I assumed that I would be at a disadvantage, since I didn't have the same five years of training that the other acolytes did. i made certain to answer questions as thoroughly as possible, and to perform my duties with precision. However, I apparently know more about the Ministry than even some of its members do. i'm certainly more competent than this batch of newcomers, and the prelans have noticed that" Kelsier chuckled "You always were an overachiever" marsh snorted quietly "Anyway my knowledge - not to mention my skill as a Seeker - has already earned me an outstanding reputtion. I'm not sure how closely I want the prelans paying attention to me; that background we devised begins to sound a bit flimsy when an Inquisitor is grilling you" So again I am confused? When did I mention Nalthis? Also I am not saying Kelsier is ineffective. I thought we were talking about Kelsier and his decision to kill anyone associated with the nobility, and does that make him evil/a monster or not. Oltux said that killing civilians associated with an enemy makes sense as Kelsier was a mob boss, and did not want to appear weak. So I mentioned a situation I felt contradicted that and was asking genuinely how that would have applied to that circumstance. Separate from that, as I said I believe Kelsier has evil within him, and depending on the circumstances he finds himself in, he will either let that out, or not. That those involved with him, due to his manipulative tendencies can never truly know where they stand in his esteem. But that is my own reading of the character. Not saying anyone cannot find something good in that character if they so wish. Personally I disagree. Kelsier was an incredibly successful thief. He could have attained plenty of money to work with. He had the know how and capability to infiltrate the inquisition as well as the nobility, and had the funds available to afford a Kandra. I believe if he truly wanted to minimize casualties, he had every capability available to him, but he chose not to. But that is just my reading of it. You can totally disagree, and feel the way you do.

Lol, I have not had a chance to get to blue lion yet, but I have been enjoying golden deer because i feel they require you to be more tactical to get the most out of the units. I keep Leonie by Raphael, with her being an archer to go into bow knight, and Raphael full on tank knight. She gains a bonus from being adjacent to him and wrecks with the bow while he takes no damage, and if his personal skill ever procs, then he gets a free heal. I got sylvain on my team, and I group him with Hilda, and he ends up getting a comparable boost in damage to Felix, coupled with a damage mitigation. As to FF12, honestly I don't know yet lol. I put a limiter on me regarding Borderlands 3 because it has started to wear out for me, so I decided I would stop for awhile after I beat the game once with every vault hunter. I just finished with Zane. So now I am focusing on my golden deer run. After that I have to figure out the order I am going to play through lol. My wife is excited about this, and so am I, though I have quite the list to get through first. She wanted to play it back in the day, but didn't have a chance to. Now that it got remastered she wants to give it a go. She loves Persona 5.

Personally I disagree. In secret history he was (to me) enraged. He was so upset he had to remove him from the feed of information because he couldn't take it. He expressed regret for saving Elend's life as it was against "his better judgement". His words. So for myself, I think had he physically been there, and been alive, I could see Kelsier attacking Elend. It is from the annotations. The author feels Breeze is scared of this, and that it is warranted. I guess you could see it that way. I personally do not. Kelsier had interactions with Preservation, and a information feed in which to learn what was happening in the outside world. To me that scene conveys an enraged individual that felt betrayed. Actually it was Dockson that provided the information. Dockson was the one that discovered her, and the only information he had was that she was in Camon's crew, is abused, and seems to use soothing without realizing what it was. Any of that can be doctored or set up. They did know how the obligators worked. There is a whole dialogue on it between Kelsier, Vin, and Marsh. Marsh assumed it would be more rigorous, but considering the members tended to be nobility with misting powers, (keeping it within their own in his words), the other obligators were relatively lax in their knowledge. Marsh distinguished himself without meaning to, and that drew the interest of the steel inquisitors. It is also mentioned by Vin and Kelsier in scenes how obligators walk around, and have to be included in every legal matter acting as the lord ruler's eyes and ears. Knowing every single dealing to spy on the nobility. Personally if the steel inquisition was this thorough, to me, I do not think it is a stretch at all that they would attempt to put spies among the skaa and the resistance. They have literal spying stations throughout the slums, just like what the skaa crews have. tglassy referenced how a to some people someone could be seen as a pirate, to others a hero. Sir Francis Drake is a prime example of this. To the spanish he was a pirate and a scourge. To the english he was awarded a knighthood by the queen herself. So I just took the example to a real life situation. Regarding the founding fathers, again that was an example tglassy used. I just responded to it. I thought the ethics was what we were discussing? The title is "is kelsier a monster?". Are you suggesting that if Kelsier had more funds, he would not have killed anyone associated with the nobles? (genuinely asking, not trying to put words in your mouth)

Totally get your interpretation. I am just stating the order I read things and why I believe as I do. First Jasnah sees the shadow point towards the lamp. Then it goes back to normal. She runs into Amaram and Gavilar. Speaks with them. Then she continues. Her shadow then points the wrong direction again. Then several distant shadows (not the one attached to her), lengthen and form into figures standing. One takes the shape of a man and he strode towards her with an unsheathed sword. Jasnah then falls among the beads, regains control, makes a raft of beads. The lead spren then comes back for her. She summons the form of a statue with a sword. The lead spren then sheathes his sword, bows and touches his forehead with his fingers as a sign of respect. At no point did Jasnah's personal shadow form into anything. That scene leads me to believe the lead spren was Ivory. This leads me to believe that Jasnah's personal shadow was just reacting to the cognitive realm. However I acknowledge that it could be said that the lead spren was not Ivory, and that Ivory was still hidden in Jasnah's shadow. Though it is later stated that Ivory is the only one of his kind to want to have anything to do with humans. So if that is the case, then why would an ink spren other than Ivory treat Jasnah with respect? It could also be said maybe the lead spren is ivory, and ivory was manipulating Jasnah's shadow from afar. Personally I do not think this is within Ink's spren power wheelhouse, but as we know very little about spren, I cannot really say that definitively. So TLDR, I am personally opting for the simpler answer being Jasnah's shadow just pointed the wrong way because in the cognitive realm, shadows point towards the cognitive "sun", and we see with Aimians that is their natural state. But I acknowledge the scene could be interpreted in other ways.

Still could be reasoned to me. Totally respect your opinion. In the books it is mentioned they fast tracked Marsh because he was doing so well. Normally there is a long induction where they look into you, train you, etc. So that reads to me as slowly. The steel inquisition uses soothing stations as both means to placate the masses as well as keep an eye out for skaa mistings. Personalyl I do not see why they wouldn't use spies and plants. The nobility certainly uses them, as evidenced by Kelsier using disguises to pretend to be a street informant to seed false information. The nobility were also concerned because obligators frequently came from their own families who could potentially sell out all their secrets. Kandra were also used. So for myself, I think it would be plausible for the steel inquisition to use spies and plants. From what I recall she could. That the Lord Ruler taught her further secrets of hemalurgy so she could do jobs no other kandra could do. The reason for the trellium was so she couldn't be controlled by harmony while doing it. But prior to that she was completely fine with the number of spikes she had, and it is mentioned she knows how to use hemalurgy in ways no one else did. I also could have sworn it was explicitly mentioned she was used for that reason. But I will check later when I have a chance and pull up the quote. My intention was to respond to Oltux's assertion that it made sense for Kelsier to kill the civilians under the nobility because he is a crime lord, and would not want to feel weak. So I was going on that premise to ask then why wouldn't such an individual kill Vin when she was a stranger that he had no clue who or what she was. Also to clarify the scene I am referring to is not the one where they are offered money and can leave. I am referring to the first meeting where Kelsier lays out they will be doing a rebellion, shows who is his employer, shows the other individuals in the crew, and who he is. This being plenty of information for Yeden to freak out about letting Clubs leave. Otherwise Kelsier knows nothing about Vin, and has not had anytime to build any attachments to the girl. Now personally I think the reason Kelsier didn't kill Vin was because she was a skaa, and he needed her. So he let his natural charisma do the leg work. Over time he came to love her like a sudo daughter. That does not change my thoughts on Kelsier having evil within him, and the situation commonly dictating when that evil comes out. But that is my personal reading of the character. I respect your opinion, but I disagree. I personally think that, in my opinion, if circumstances is the only thing preventing a person from doing evil or not (not saying you are saying that, I am saying that. To me Kelsier's actions is very determinate on the situation), then I think that person has evil within them. For myself Kelsier is a flip of the coin. I would not want to trust or follow such an individual, because for myself I would not know whether I was considered either: -The malcontent Kelsier set up to get killed by Demoux, which was only stopped because Demoux resisted -Ham, a good friend, that Kelsier manipulates into a position of power against Ham's will -The group of villagers Kelsier set up, then abandoned, and was surprised they survived -Breeze, a good friend, that is worried Kelsier will kill him if Kelsier finds out the truth about his origins -Elend, a good man who is only alive in regards to Kelsier (to me) because Vin happened to have strong feelings for him -Spook, Kelsier manipulated into idolization, and used that worship to further Kelsier's own goals after death Sir Francis Drake did not seek to exterminate every single Spanish person simply because they were spanish. The Founding Fathers did not seek to exterminate every single British soldier simply because they were British. The question (I thought at least) that was brought up, is what do you quantify as "they"? The individuals that did the beating and killing themselves? The guards that protect those individuals? The servants that cook the food, and clean the place that those individuals live in? Kelsier stated all should die because they support the system. Personally I think that is problematic and hypocritical especially as Vin pointed out Kelsier benefited from that system. Kelsier never actually lived as a skaa. Kelsier would have been nobility himself had his father claimed him and Marsh. Kelsier would have been that which he so reviles. For myself (I know Kingsdaughter disagrees, and I respect her thoughts on this matter that we have discussed at length before), but considering how the Southern Society functions also speaks to me of a Kelsier that has learned nothing, continues to inflate his own ego, and became the very thing he abhorred most. A dictator. Which is why for myself Brandon's quote resonates deeply. Kelsier in any other story would be the villain. To me had Kelsier and Wax ran into each other, they would have fought, and Kelsier would have tried to kill Wax. That Miles and Suit are right when they say there isn't much separating them from Kelsier. I feel the Wax and Wayne series is meant to highlight this. To be clear I am not trying to tell you how to feel about Kelsier. Feel free to like the character, think he is a good man, be inspired by him. Just personally for myself, I would not feel comfortable nor safe around such an individual. For myself, I would never know where I truly stand in his esteem. Am I truly his friend that he trusts? Am I just a useful tool? Or am I bait/something worthy of being used and thrown away?

Not ringing in either way. Just posting a WoB that I thought would be relevant to this discussion Questioner So, Shai and forgers. She forges the emperor’s soul, then she got to track by practicing on [Gaotona], and it kind of held for a minute since he was close to the emperor, and that means it was right. So it was basically trial and error. Brandon Sanderson It was. Questioner So even if she have a lot more time and a lot less information, she could’ve guessed? Brandon Sanderson Potentially, there’s a certain distance trial and error will take you; in a reasonable amount of time, there’s a certain distance that can take you. Questioner And in an unreasonable amount of time? Brandon Sanderson Unreasonable, yes. You can just trial and error your way through a lot of things. Questioner And by seeing it held on him for 24 hours of time, that means she got really close. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner And when she was forging herself, she was basically forging lies. Brandon Sanderson She was forging lies, but she knew how to make them really plausible for herself. Plausibility is a really big part of it. Can you convince the soul to not just of yourself... Questioner The decisions that she could have made? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. That they were realistic, that they were there, that she could have made these, that everything lines up in the past. It’s a little like programming. Questioner So that’s why she could add a little bit to the emperor’s soul because that’s also plausible? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Could she have changed him more if she knew more about him? Brandon Sanderson Yes. She created a fake soul and put it in him, there are possibilities beyond what she did. Questioner So she could’ve gotten a bit wrong if her trial and error made it plausible instead of what happened? Brandon Sanderson Now, at least in her perspective, what she did was create a fake soul and put it in him. What I haven’t answered is did she just take the soul that was lingering on the body and fill in the gaps? Or did she legitimately craft a new soul? That I’ll leave to the cosmere philosophers to talk about. Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

Exactly. Which means there is a whole bunch of other ways he could have been fooled. Remember the Lord Ruler had Kelsier thinking his wife Mare betrayed him from one sentence. Straff had a hidden mistborn. Elend's potential wife to be was a hidden mistborn. Why couldn't the inquisitors have hidden mistborn for missions? Actually very easy. She just has to demonstrate a second one. Kelsier says it himself, you either get one, or all of them. So just showing one more is enough proof to show you are mistborn. Kelsier doesn't know you can be gifted any combination of powers via spikes. Or Vin could have been a mistborn, and still a steel inquisition plant. Kelsier has no way to know anything from Vin's lips is the truth. Because they want to stop the rebellion for good. Its been hiding out in caves. In the past they would just stop because it was too much resources and effort to hunt through all those caved. But if they had a plant, they could hit them quick, and coordinated. Destroying the rebellion utterly and completely for ages to come. Kelsier gave her a general vial of all the metals. She demonstrated Soothing with the obligator already. He reasoned it would be best when speaking to someone with (seemingly) no experience to have them use a metal analogous to the metal she already knew how to use which would require the minimal amount of teaching and explanation. One that he could also feel the effect of to determine its use. Sounds all reasoned to me.

No problem. His PoV symbol is him in shardplate after all.

He was not wearing shardplate when he transferred to the cognitive realm. They had needed to sneak into Kholinar, so he left it back at Urithiru.

Lightsong

Kelsier

Still trying to find the wording for the WoB that just explains the whole thing but it works like this. Normal person with dead shardplate. surges of anyone will be difficult to use on it knight radiant wearing dead shardplate. surges of anyone, radiant wearing it and all, will be difficult to use on knight radiant wearing living own radiant's armor. the surges of that specific knight radiant works within, on and outside the armor no problem. Anyone else's surges would be difficult to use on it The reason is that in dead shardplate, the identity of the armor is not tied to the wearer, regardless whether the person wearing it is a normal human, or a radiant, because the original knight radiant who own the armor is dead and gone. If a radiant has its own living radiant shardplate, its identity is connected to that radiant, so it does not interfere with that specific radiant's surges. If another radiant attempts to use surges on that radiant's living armor, there will be interference, because that armor is not identity connected to that other radiant. So the armor will need to be dismissed for surges of another radiant, to be used on the individual. An example of this is regarding mistborn spoilers below:

Oathbringer page 352 He shouted "You haven't summoned your armor yet; you had to dismiss it so I could Lash you" There is a WoB that explains it, but I am having trouble recalling the wording to locate it on the Arcanum

So first and foremost, totally feel how you feel regarding the book. It didn't work for you, and that is fine. Just responding for informational purposes to some parts, and others just my own opinion/interpretation Shallan did question Jasnah on her survival. Shallan asked her how Jasnah survived, and Jasnah said that well she is an elsecaller. Shallan replied with snark that oh of course that makes so much sense when she knows nothing of what elsecallers are capable of. Jasnah apologized, and then explained. In the beginning Shallan demonstrates her curiosity in the murder mystery, tracking the mysterious figure that duplicates murders. She maintains her curiosity in exploring her abilities (learning that she can tie an illusion to a gemstone, reducing the stormlight cost, and vastly increasing the illusions length of time). In Kholinar Shallan tests the corrupted spren by embarrassing herself and hurting herself to observe what the changed spren look like. She is curious about Sja-anat and attempts to make contact. For myself all those things maintain her curiosity. As others have said, Odium is concerned that Dalinar is ascending which could mean Cultivation and Dalinar could jump Odium outnumbering him. As on my own thoughts on Oathbringer. I enjoyed it. To me it had some wonderful scenes, and I cannot wait for book four!

Just thinking out loud. Perhaps they couldn't do that because they didn't have enough power? Odium, a shard, is what put the power of two other shards into the cognitive. Maybe they need a shard level of power to put it back? Maybe that is why the IRE tried to get preservation? Just spit balling.

Paalm with the right spikes could. Kelsier only tested Vin for soothing and rioting. That could be easily accomplished by her. Vin could have been a plant by the Inquisition. She could either have been a full mistborn, pretending to be a half breed, or she could have been spiked with a blessing to give her two powers so she would register to him as a mistborn. It was confirmed via WoB that there were female steel inquisitors. She could have been in the early induction and used as a spy. It was said in the book that they fast tracked Marsh. So she could have been early in the process. My point is, Kelsier didn't know. She could have been anything.

This WoB is more detailed, with Brandon explaining how he does not want a definitive answer whether there is even a place after at all. That it could just as easily be investiture being reclaimed. Or Buddhist where it is being recycled. All occuring "here". Without an actual afterlife or other "place". Full WoB below Questioner After people die, in this universe, where exactly do they go? Because, at first they appear in this one world, and then they go somewhere else. Brandon Sanderson So where do people go when they die. *laughter* In the cosmere. One of the things that's very important to me as a writer, when I am writing stories, is when we get to these kind of fundamental questions about faith and religion and things like this, that the narrative is allowing multiple characters' viewpoints to be plausibly true, if this makes sense. For instance, I am not gonna come out and say, "Is there a capital-G God of the cosmere, is there an afterlife?" These are not questions I'm gonna answer, because in-world, they can't answer them. What they can say is, your Investiture will leave what we call a Cognitive Shadow, which is an imprint of your personality that can do certain things. And that most of those fade away, and you can see them, glimpse them, and then watch them go. But, are they going somewhere? Or are they not? Is that simply the Investiture being reclaimed, Is it more of a Buddhist thought, where your soul is getting recycled and used again? Is it nothing, you return to, you know, being-- yeah, is it a different type of matter? Or is there a Beyond, is there a capital-G God? Things like this. These questions are not answered. I'm never gonna answer those. Now, the characters will try to answer them. But it's important to me that both Dalinar and Jasnah can exist in the same universe, and that the story is not saying "This one is right, and this one is wrong." The story is saying "This is how this one sees the world; this is how this one sees the world." It's very important to me from the beginning to do that, just because-- Like, I hate reading a book where someone espouses my viewpoint only to get proven wrong by the entire structure of the narrative, and in that universe, that person is wrong. But I'm like, "In our universe, I don't think that I am. Just the way you constructed everything makes it so that I have to be wrong, if I were living in your universe, even if it's a universe that's not a sci-fi/fantasy one." If that makes sense. This is just kind of for respecting my characters and for the people who hold the viewpoints of my characters, in particular if they happen to be different from my own viewpoints. I feel there are certain lines I'm not gonna cross. So, the answer is: who do you believe? Which of the philosophies in the books do you look at and say "Yeah!" Or, even better: listen to lots of different ones, and maybe these different viewpoints are all gonna have interesting points that'll give you things to think upon. JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

So first and foremost @Tglassy I just want to make clear I agree at this stage there is just too much we do not know. I agree with you in that regard. My comments below regarding soulcasting is not with the intent of proving a point, or proving you wrong. Just adding information regarding soulcasting in particular that I have learned through a lot of reading and research. So anything I say regarding soulcasting in contrary to your statements, is not to say "this is why a radiant would win over a mistborn". All it is saying is, actually we do know this, or we did see that. Also it is not meant to be corrective of you. Again, just intending to share information. I will need to check to be sure, but I do not believe Vin detected Kelsier via bronze. She felt his presence because of her strong connection to him, just like Spook. The mistspirit alternated between preservation trying to guide her and ruin trying to mislead her, not Kelsier. But again I will need to confirm it, I could be remembering incorrectly. The WoB I posted earlier states soulcasters (the fabrial) are used to pushing through innate investiture. That they are so used to it, soulcasters (the fabrial) could soulcast full metal minds. In the deleted scene with Jasnah, she had gemstones hidden sewn into her dress. She used the stormlight to heal from the stabbing, and Ivory pulled her into the cognitive realm with transportation. So Jasnah, injured, and having already used stormlight to heal from a hidden cache small enough to not glow strong enough to see through cloth, was enough to transfer to the cognitive realm. And I cannot wait to find out more! So we do know that you can soulcast at range, with your eyes closed, at a moving target while the source remains stationary. We also know you can multi target moving targets and they do not have to be along an analogous path. In the alley the two men fled in opposite directions. In both men, they bodies were selected in exclusion from their clothes. So there does seem to be some selective capabilities for ranged soulcasting. Also I had mentioned earlier that in full disclosure it could be debated (meaning I have discussed this topic in the past, and there are people with differing opinions on it, that I will not relate as I do not want to misrepresent them), but from Renarin's perspective, he watches Jasnah soulcast a man to crystal, throw him back, he hits someone, they turn to crystal, and fly back with the same force, then another, and then ending with a fourth. She then touches a wall turning it to smoke collapsing the alley, and then as she runs up them, Jasnah soulcasts the steps. Then, after all that, he feels the surge of stormlight and power from Dalinar bringing the realms together. So I read that as those three things were done before the realms were brought together, and any elsecaller of the same oath level as Jasnah at the time of that scene could accomplish those feats.