Pathfinder

Again, not sure if I am misunderstanding you. The IRE have beef with Threnody at the same time that Nazh states becoming a cognitive shadow is a sacred rite. Theoretically that is before the Evil was a thing. Which is why I theorized the IRE could potentially be the cause. But if I understand you correctly, you are saying that threnody wanting to be a power player, manipulated the process and caused the Evil years later? If I got you right, then could be.

So not sure if I am misunderstanding you or not, but the impression I got from the OP was that they were wondering if the Returned would be "greyed" out like Renarin was by being a wildcard. I was reasoning perhaps not, because Renarin has more info, and more capabilities to actively act on the information he gains, while a Returned is more passive in so far as they get glimpses without context.

I'd have to check but I don't recall WoB linking Odium/Ambition to the "evil". I know Odium mortally wounded Ambition, and after fleeing, Ambition died near Threnody.

Kind of like how a whole book was created just to act as a "prequel" to help explain the incluson of a character on an entirely different planet? (Warbreaker, Nightblood). See what you are saying, but I don't think the structure of the cosmere precludes it. Thanks for the additional input on the timeline! Definitely helps me tweak my theory!

Well if anything this goes to show what an amazing game FE3H is because having started with Crimson Flower playthrough, I find myself liking Edelgard far more than Rhea. If anything I see Rhea in a very negative light. In a lot of ways I would liken her to the Lord Ruler. But having not played fully through Golden Deer yet, I fully admit there is probably large bits of information I am missing. Also I totally understand if it is just against your preference. When I would play dungeons and dragons, I would always tends towards the magic casters, and in some cases the rogues. Fighters always felt boring to me, and divine characters always uncomfortable. The idea that to rely on some entity for my powers never sat well with me. Which is why despite fitting my play style (buff/debuff), I never gave cleric or invoker a shot.

I agree it would be an interesting contrast to see them side by side. Seeing all the artistic renditions of the heralds comes only second to seeing the artistic renditions of the spren which I cannot wait to see!

Thank you both. I think I will give it a go after I finish my Golden Deer route. I was planning to in my blue lions run recruit everyone via newgame plus, and fully kit out my group to my ideal from all the other houses. I like building characters and didn't want repetition which is why I mainly avoided recruitment in my first two play throughs. So after golden deer, I may get cindered shadows to get the ashen wolves added to my last blue lions play through. side note: @Use the Falchion why do you feel you will never play Crimson Flower?

Thank you! Though maybe perhaps it is because Returned get more impressions, and vague dreams, while Renarin gets warnings from Glys, and literal "tv screens" showing him what will happen so he can act more on it? Just coming up with ideas.

My one disconnect on this particular part is the idea that (and if I misrepresent you, I apologize in advance) there would only be one 5th oathed radiant in the windrunners. Nale said there hadn't been a 5th oathed knight for the skybreakers in centuries, but considering the leader of the order (Nale) and how he has been acting, it does not surprise me that those that follow him would be stymied in their progression. They view the way Nale does things, as the right way to do things, when the reality is he is wrong. Now it could be said he is a fifth oathed radiant, so he must be doing something right, but I think he reached that level prior to degrading as much as he has, as well as becoming the law could now give him more leeway in how he acts while still maintaining the bond. A leeway the lower oathed radiants would not have. Further I would figure that if all the orders had only one 5th oathed radiant at a time, then the bondsmiths to me dispute that. If it was only the windrunners that had a 5th oathed radiant, then I would imagine we would have gotten some hints of that in the novels. True it could potentially be revealed when or if one day Kaladin attains the fifth oath (which I do not think will necessarily happen, we have WoB that not all radiants fully progressed all the way through their oaths and also mentioned in book regarding the surgebinder that could not progress in the demanding self truths of the lightweavers) that only one windrunner gets to that level, but another thing wouldn't make sense to me then. Two windrunners can and have disagreed on oaths. One would feel an action would break an oath, while another could feel it was completely in line with the oaths. We also know windrunners can swear different worded oaths. Same basic idea, but the rest is extremely personal. So why would such an extremely personal experience be limited to one person at a time to reach its conclusion? So for myself, I feel potentially there should be able to be multiple 5th oathed windrunner radiants. And if there should be multiple, does that mean they get to be kings of everywhere on Roshar? Also by your statement a fifth oathed radiant would be a "leader of leaders", then among the fifth oathed windrunners, who gets to be the "leader of leaders?" They are all the same level. So it is an accomplishment measurement? Because the parsh and the humans look to Kaladin (in your theory), then the other 5th oathed radiants say "hey lets follow him!". Also I just had an additional idea. If being a 5th oathed radiant means you are the leader of leaders, and should be king, then why hasn't there been a "cultural more" passed down through the ages regarding specifically blue eyed individuals? We know lighteyes have a right to rule because radiants get glowing eyes, and they passed it down to their children, and those children associated lighteyes with divine power, and stretched it to divine right to rule. But if windrunners always ended up rulers, then shouldn't lighteyes with blue eyes be considered extra royalty? Paid extra deference? All of this isn't meant as an attack on your theory. Just how my brain worked through it and why I feel it doesn't fit for me. I wish you luck!

From the man himself: Brandon Sanderson This is the most overt and obvious of my savior-imagery scenes for Kelsier. I hope you didn't feel like I was hitting you over the head with it. (I didn't actually realize the similarity between Survivor and Savior until I was part of the way through the book.) Either way, yes, the Christian imagery is intentional. I didn't put it in simply because I'm religious (after all, if you look at it, Kelsier isn't really all that Christian in the way he deals with people.) I put it in because I think that the images and metaphors of Christianity are deeply-seated in our culture, and drawing upon them provides for a more powerful story. Part of this is to intentionally make people uncomfortable–for discomfort (when used right) leads to tension. The Christians who read this might be made uncomfortable by how strikingly un-divine Kelsier is. He's acting in some of the same roles as Christ did, but he's not the man that Christ was. He's kind of a pale imitation. The non-Christians, in turn, might be made uncomfortable by the fact that Kelsier is manipulating the people in the way that religions often do, giving hope in something that could very well prove to be false. Either way, he is what he is. The truest Kelsier is the one we see near the end, where he's standing in the kitchen, smoldering in his black clothing. He is a dangerous man with powerful beliefs. Mistborn: The Final Empire Annotations (April 2, 2007) Questioner Did you purposely make the Church of the Survivor sort of like Christianity or not? Brandon Sanderson Kelsier intentionally made it like Christianity. In kind of a false way, meaning he read about and had Sazed tell him about religions that were similar and then he built that his own way. Questioner Oh so did Sazed tell him about... Brandon Sanderson Sazed told him about religions that were similar. I wouldn't say Christianity specifically, but their version and things. So there is a yes and a no. Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015) Questioner When you pictured Kelsier in the Mistborn Series, did you see him as a Christlike figure? Brandon Sanderson He sees himself that way, I do not. Questioner And the church that follows up after him, is that more like *inaudible* Brandon Sanderson It is hierarchical like some Christian churches are, but it is not meant to reference any specific church. I'm not *inaudible* to be Kelsier, as he has a more inflated opinion of himself that I think he should have. Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

Came across a scene that I think is pertinent to this discussion. This is the oathgate spren talking: "We are apologetic. We have been.....alone very long. We would enjoy granting passage to men again." So at least on some level the radiant spren associated with the oathgate are doing so voluntarily, and they even enjoyed it.

Could you provide the quote? I don't know what wording to dig for to pull it up. Not saying you are wrong. Just I would like to read it for myself.

Came across a scene that I think is pertinent to this discussion. This is the oathgate spren talking: "We are apologetic. We have been.....alone very long. We would enjoy granting passage to men again." So at least on some level the radiant spren associated with the oathgate are doing so voluntarily, and they even enjoyed it.

I think just about everything in Urithiru could be a good example (pressure and climate control, "tvs", internal lighting, elevators, etc), but some ideas that I think could be possible are: 1. flying ships (obvious given Navani's drawings) 2. grav lift train without friction via abrasion 3. extensive tunnel system using cohesion to make it, and the attracting fabrials to drain water out of it 4. "replicators" in soulcasters once they are understood further 5. healing in regrowth fabrials as we have already seen 6. advancements in farming due to progression fabrials

Hmmm. So some random thoughts. Perhaps the shades on the continent were the result of past battles, and the evil was the final salvo? Or perhaps the evil did not manifest fully onto the physical realm till recent, but its influence was felt across the world in the shades? Or maybe the evil was an unintended result of a group trying to fix what the IRE did initially. So the shades as we know it are due to the IRE, and then a group trying to fix that, caused the Evil? Glad I understood correctly.

I think part of what greyed out Renarin, is his powers are a continual effect. As in happens multiple times, which would result in the wildcardness to me. While with Returned, they are shown a glimpse of the future. Asked if they want to go back to change it. If they agree, they are put into a body, but lose their memory of it except for little glimpses. It is then up to them to act on what little info they have. Blushweaver was the other example of this. She was trying to prevent the war, but because she had trouble recalling it, her interpretation was to get control of the army to avoid catastrophe. So with the returned, their returning only affects things in regards to themselves and that specific moment. Renarin sees a vision. Then acts on that vision. Then sees another vision that was affected by that action. And then acts on that vision. And so on. So for instance a returned changes the future. A future watcher, would see that change, and react to that change, but unless another returned is sent, that reaction of the future watcher is what remains static. Meanwhile since Renarin is continual as well, then Renarin changes the future. Then Odium reacts and changes the future. Then Renarin reacts and changes. Then Odium. And etc. So I see the returned as tossing a pebble into a lake. I see Renarin as tossing in numerous pebbles into the lake, or continually tossing pebbles into the lake. One makes a ripple and then the water stills, while the other makes ripples upon ripples upon ripples.

What are your impressions of the DLC so far? Can you also say what the special skills are for the new classes?

Elsecaller. Armor, sword, personal healing, transform anything to anything, and (potentially) teleportation. Sign me up

Good point. Makes me all the more excited to see artwork of the remaining 5 heralds!

Hmmm. Which could mean the conflict is still ongoing as of stormlight since I believe (correct me if I am wrong) Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell takes place after Stormlight. So as of stormlight we could still be seeing the "before". Before whatever the weapon is used. Potentially the "Evil" could have been the end of the Ghostbloods as we know it. I think (correct me if I am wrong), @ILuvHats was saying the organization itself is sourced from Threnody, but the individual members can originate from many other places. That Mraize is showing attributes that may be seen as desirable in the organization. And those attributes they prize could be sourced with Ambition due to the potential origin of the organization.

Here you go! https://coppermind.net/wiki/Knights_Radiant But for quick reference: Windrunner: Surges of Adhesion and Gravitation Skybreaker: Surges of Gravitation and Division Dustbringer: Surges of Division and Abrasion Edgedancer: Surges of Abrasion and Progression Truthwatcher: Surges of Progression, and Illumination Lightweaver: Surges of Illumination and Transformation Elsecaller: Surges of Transformation and Transportation Willshaper: Surges of Transportation and Cohesion Stoneward: Surges of Cohesion and Tension Bondsmith: Surges of Tension and Adhesion

I have a theory, (with nothing concrete to back it, to be fully upfront) that upon "natural" death of a radiant (natural as in either old age, or violent in battle) without breaking the oaths prior, the spren has three choices. 1. mourn the radiant, losing their increased connection to the physical realm, returning to the cognitive realm and chose not to bond further 2. mourn the radiant, and chose to bond a new person to rejoin the war effort 3. mourn the radiant, and bond with the fabrial, maintaining the oath level/strength they were while the radiant was alive, but still being able to assist in the war effort without feeling like they have abandoned their deceased radiant I also think a sign that surge fabrials are different than "normal" fabrials is it seems that for "normal" fabrials the spren is trapped in the gemstone, and the metal casing around it manipulates that gemstone containing the spren. Soulcasters and Regrowth seems to operate differently. The gemstones act towards the effect. So soulcasting, the gemstones determine what essence is used. For Regrowth, specific gemstones are used to heal. Yet the gemstones can be replaced when cracked, while the fabrial can still theoretically function. A single stone in a soulcaster shattering for instance, while being able to still soulcast with the other stones. So I do not believe the radiant spren get trapped in gemstones like spren for "normal" soulcasters.

Based on the WoB where it says Brandon just tells them to do their rendition of the Heralds as if it was on the sistine chapel lends me to think they did not, but I think it is fun to think on and look through. Makes you wonder if the artwork of Shallash would be Iri or Riran (I forget which one), considering they wear very little clothing and paint their bodies, though they have stringent chastity laws. Or am I thinking of another culture on Roshar that walks around almost naked? The artist could be going for a representation of Braize. We know the population refer to Taln as the bearer of all agonies. So there definitely would be a tradition with linking Taln with that location. What is surrounding him could definitely be interpreted as smoke with cinders, though I see it as darkness. Could also be a representation of Taln defeating, or overcoming one of the Unmade, perhaps the Nightmother for instance.

So crackpot theory that just popped into my head (I will need to dig a bit to check a few things in the meantime). The IRE has a problem with Threnody enough to have guards and a form of a fabrial to detect them. One of the IRE even says "The powers of Threnody wish to join the main stage". We also know when Kelsier speaks with Nazh that as of that time to Nazh's knowledge, becoming a cognitive shadow is something that is revered, has traditions, and is an important rite. He makes no reference or mention to shades as we know of them as the time of Shadows for Silence in the Forest of Hell. So, what if between the time of Kelsier's Secret History interaction with the IRE, and Shadows of Silence in the Forest of Hell, that the IRE come into full on conflict with the "Deepest Ones"? What if originally the Deepest Ones were the individuals that became cognitive shadows via traditions and rites to guide their people? What if the IRE didn't like the competition, and shots were fired leading the IRE to make and use a weapon that resulted in the "Evil" that changed the cognitive shadows on Threnody? We know the IRE are already willing to meddle with other worlds, and disregard the survival of the people on that planet so long as their goals are attained. We also know they have knowledge to create devices that play with connection and investiture (the orb they were going to use to gain connection to preservation, and thereby "steal" the shard). Maybe they found a way to destroy or prevent the cognitive shadows from higher thought, and resulted in their more destructive natures.

I tried checking the coppermind just now and I only see Vorinism mentioned which is a shame. I have to dig but there were a number of them. I recall one where Jezerien was worshiped alone. Another which worshiped the heralds as gods, without the almighty, and I feel like the prime aquix (butchered the spelling) with the Azish was connected to the heralds somehow. Edit: found Azir so far at least. They don't call the heralds heralds. They call them the Kadasixes. This is confirmed by Darkness (Nale), referring to the Kadasixes as heralds. Still digging for the others. (not digging to prove a point, but to further theorize with you as to which artworks could be with which cultures)