Pathfinder

Can you give me an example as to why you believe that Kelsier believed that letting that guard live would have caused the rebellion to fail? Just want to understand your perspective better. Sorry I do not recognize that word. Could you explain again? So if that guard was left to live, then the total net would result in Vin being unhappy? I guess this goes back to why was that guard's death so crucial to Kelsier's identity that he would have been a different person unable to keep the rebellion going had he let that guard live? edit: how about this. what I think you are saying (please correct me if I am wrong) is this -The type of person Kelsier is would kill that guard -If Kelsier did not kill that guard, Kelsier would not be the type of person he is -If Kelsier were not the type of person he is, the rebellion would have failed -Thereby in order for the rebellion to succeed, Kelsier has to kill that guard I get that right?

But I guess to turn the questioning back to you, is the reasoning enough that without it the rebellion would have failed? Same thing happened with Yeden. Yet the rebellion still worked out in the end. I guess at this point the question is, why is Kelsier killing random guards so important to the success of the rebellion for you? So to make sure I understand things correctly. You are saying Kelsier is defined as a person based on his willingness to kill people he does not have to? That Kel would not be the man that helped Vin had he not killed that guard? For myself Vin getting scared or angry over it, but still trying to be better does say a lot more for her, than Kelsier who does it, and just doesn't care at all. Maybe if I break things down this way: -Kelsier kills people he does not have to kill (to me) because he can -In the world of the final empire, since he points this in the general direction of the oppression, he is seen as a hero to the populace -To me this does not change the nature of the individual, especially when to me, it could have been accomplished without as much general death (and in fact Elend pointed out that would make things worse. Kelsier wanted a bloody revolution where all the nobility was killed. Elend, in an analogue to the french revolution, realized it would lead to far more damage than help) -For me if you can take Kelsier out of the final empire scenario, and he be a villian, then to me the environment is the only thing that changed. Not the person. And that the environment did not require Kelsier to be that way. Just Kelsier being that way happen to lead to the same results -So for instance lets say whoever deflates the balloon is lauded as a hero because the balloon is great and evil. One way, someone throws a bomb that destroys that balloon and any around them, people cheer because the balloon is deflated. Another way, a person makes an incision at the base of the balloon and it deflates, keeping the other balloons intact. Everyone cheers because the balloon is deflated. So for myself, using the grenade to deflate the balloon is not what makes Kelsier the hero. Deflating the balloon is. And if you could deflate the balloon without a bomb, I think the fact that a bomb was used speaks about the user. And finally, if you were then to take Kelsier and put him in a china shop, and tell him the deflate the balloon, and he used a bomb, he would be seen very differently. -So I choose to view and comment on the person, and not the environment in this case. Hopefully that helped. But at this point, are we really discussing Kelsier the monster anymore? Because it sounds like you think he is a monster as well, just (correct me if I am wrong), you think that is ok because of the environment.

So only quoting you because of the subject of your post. I have seen that thought before, and I dunno I kind of interpret the scene differently, or feel it is a bit more open ended. To be clear not saying you are wrong or anything. Just the way the scene plays out, to me, we have no idea who Harkaylain is. Harkaylain could be someone from the same order as the person Dalinar is pretending to be. Harkaylain could be another spren from the same radiant order as the person Dalinar is pretending to be. Basically I dunno if Harkaylain is necesarily a shardplate "smith" or some such that makes it. Oathbringer page 352 "I think something might be wrong with my armor!" Dalinar shouted to him "I can't make my helm retract!" In response, the other Radiant made his vanish. Dalinar caught sight of a puff of Light or mist. Beneath the helm, the man had dark skin and curly black hair. His eyes glowed blue "Retract your helm?" he shouted "You haven't summoned your armor yet; you had to dismiss it so I could Lash you" Oh, Dalinar thought. "I mean earlier. It wouldn't vanish when I wanted it to" "Talk to Harkaylain then, or to your spren" The Windrunner frowned. "Will this be a problem for our mission?"

You can survive a 40ft (4 stories) fall. You will be injured, but you can survive. Kaladin was holding stormlight which healed him. The stones in shadesmar run to you because you are holding stormlight and they drain it because they want it. Kaladin already knew stormlight heals. She didn't teach him anything. All she did was say "go for it". In my opinion Well of course because there would be knights radiant around that he would be squired to to potentially learn from. But I thought we were going on the premise that a child would be able to better do it because of how a child's brain would work. The implication from me being they would not be receiving the rigid instruction from an adult to do so. Their "flexible" brains would be better at it. So I felt if a child bonded and tried to soulcast on their own, there would be a large chance (to me) that they would die.

No prob. Personally I do not see how any of that information is any different when Kelsier actively kills the guards and makes enough noise to call the hazekillers right to him. When avoiding killing the guard would have resulted in less of a disturbance and further guards coming. Kelsier burns copper, so bronze seekers wouldn't change anything. Coin shots, lurchers, pewter thugs wouldn't help if they do not know he is there to begin with. Tin eye would, but Kelsier has dealt with tin eyes before. Maybe if I put it this way. All the issues you have presented, to me, are issues Kelsier's plan already deals with. The only difference is I believe he could deal with them without killing un-necessarily. edit: or to put it another way. Keep things exactly as they are with Kelsier. He has to worry about guards, allomancers, people leaking information, people betraying him, and so on. That doesn't change in either scenario. Just for me, in one Kelsier is killing people he doesn't need to, while in another, he isn't Do the same thing as he did with the Kandra Oreseur. Use the house as a cover, and fund various political/legal, and political/illegal ventures I understand that, and my point was I think it is a false equivalency to draw a line from the guards death to Vin being happy. For myself Kelsier could have helped Vin without killing the guard, and I do not believe that guard living or dying ultimately changes Vin's status in any way. So the guard dying accomplishes nothing (to me) other than a random person was killed because Kelsier chose to. Why would Kelsier been removed? My comments were on his actions. That he could have chosen different ones and still accomplished the same goals. I do not think that would result in his absence. My point is that he took actions that led to the death of many individuals, that he did not have to. Those deaths ultimately (to me) did not cause the rebellion to succeed. If those individuals had lived, the rebellion (to me) would not have failed. So those deaths were (to me ) ancillary. Kelsier did it because he could, and he did not care about the consequences. That speaks to his character to me. Not sure I follow what you mean? Could you explain?

No problem. Though to be clear, not saying how I read it is correct. I could still be wrong. King of Nowhere mentioned the problems of measuring, and those could still very well apply. i was just throwing out some ideas, and the quote to help further the discussion. Happy to help. update for @Koloss17 So for the Braize of it, I searched Adien's name in Elantris and some interesting things came up - when first introduced it is mentioned Adien is in his late teens. So according to google roughly 17 to 19 - Adien became an Elantrian or more accurately had the secret for 5 years. So he became an Elantrian from 12 to 14 years old - Adien normally (at least while being an Elantrian) rattles off numbers under his breath - When in conversation about Lukel studying in Svorden last year, Adien rattles off what the distance is in steps from their house to there - When in conversation Elantris is mentioned by others, he rattles off what the distance is in steps from where they are to Elantris - When marched by the Dakhor monks, and then when he voluntarily walked into the flames, he could be heard counting each step he took So if Adien considers 12 to 14 as a "child" (which I understand is potentialy far fetched), then he could have been an elantrian when he traveled to Teod and measured the travel as they went. Another consideration is Adien was "normal" back then, and since his father (Kiin had visited Teod since then) and his brother travels, and deals with merchants, I could see Adien being interested in geography. He was always good with numbers. Just gotta ask where Daddy is and have Mommy or an older sibling point to where that is on the map, and there you go. Guess the step part is to allow it to be foreshadowed, and it is a past time of Adien.

Could you explain? From what I recall Kaladin started by running through the chasms and trying to jump onto the side of the wall. Over time he figured out how to change his perception so he could stand on the wall. Are you speaking of when he first used adhesion to climb the wall? He was full of stormlight, and only dropped enough to break his legs. Regardless the illustration I meant to provide is place him in a situation that if he does not know how to do it, he will die. Syl did not explain. He learned and experimented himself. In Kaladin's case it was fortunate because those instances, were instances he was able to have the ability to experiment and survive. I do not think a child in shadesmar would have the same chance. I am confused. Before you said Pattern taught and should know. Now you are saying he does not? Just trying to understand better what you are saying.

Sorry to clarify, I did not mean to say (or come across) that I was unwilling to change my mind in face of evidence. What I meant to convey is that for myself, their is copious amounts of evidence that support, to me, how I feel. And it would take a rather large and dramatic piece of information that I have not known of to be presented to change that. To put another way just to illustrate, not meant to be taken literal but lets say there are 10 big things that I have seen in the books and stated by the author that lead me to believe this way. What that has been presented (to me) has not changed those 10 big things in the slightest. Which is why I do not see this resulting in me being convinced. Also I was attempting to clarify that I was not intending to change your mind. This thread is "is kelsier a monster". I stated I think he is in regards to the situations he finds himself, and then explained why. If that does not work for you, that is totally fine. It can totally not work for you. Just like it can work for me. One of us does not have to change the other ones mind in order to discuss it. At least that is how I was intending to go about it. He could use his allomancy to create a noise to cause a distraction. Then picking a point in the hallway that is high up and shadowed, use a pull and push to keep him suspended against the ceiling. Also since Kelsier is especially good with pushes and pulls, he could maintain the push and crawl across the ceiling while the guard goes to the source of the sound. Hiding against the ceiling was done in the novels. I will need to pull up the scene though. Right. Never said they wouldn't realize someone made an "Accident". What I am saying is they wouldn't care. It would just be par for the course. Kelsier and co said as much. Which is why they worked the housewar angle. They knew the lord ruler would do nothing. True they could be married off. Or the younger son could be power hungry and eye the spot his brother has. There was a short story Brandon wrote for the mistborn rpg I believe, where there were two sons of a land owning noble. They looked at each other with competition in their minds, and the father berated any mistakes and threatened dis-inheritance. So from what I read such practices were very real in the final empire. I am saying the death of those guards (in my opinion) neither made Kelsier's rebellion successful nor would them being spared make Kelsier's rebellion fail. To me it was not necessary. So Kelsier killing those guards is excused because he helped Vin? Or another way of putting it, Kelsier was able to help Vin because he killed those guards? Personally I do not think that is the case. Vin was not willing to kill Cett's mercenaries to kill him. Her great dilemma during that time was she feared she was nothing more than a weapon good for killing. I think in some ways she was afraid of becoming like Kelsier. Zane played on that fear, and manipulated her into believing Cett and his guards threatened Elend and everything he built. Zane also soothed/rioted Vin while manipulating her. So I believe had Vin not been manipulated and pushed by Zane, she would not have chosen to kill those guards. And the fact that she did feel horrible after (while Kelsier holds no remorse, even when told they were skaa, the people he claimed he wanted to protect/save), is what I think separates her from Kelsier. She went through as much is not worse than Kelsier, and still came out the other side better than her enemy.

So I re-read the scene, and for help I will even type it out below for reference. What I suggest is just throwing some ideas out to see what sticks. So what do I believe the scene tells me: 1. Adien has been to the docks of Teod as a child. 2. Raoden knew Teod was four days sail, but did not know what that was in miles or feet. So theoretically since Adien has been to the docks before, he has made this four day sailing trip himself as a child. 3. Adien states he felt his entire life has been a dream. He could remember it, but not interact with it 4. Adien uses his own stride as a metric. True strides can vary, but I assume he is basing his calculations on that specific step of his stride, and treating that specific stride as a constant to which to measure. which he does instruct Raoden to measure and then half it as the unit. 5. Adien's surprise could be more in his own ability to be able to recalculate the distance just off of a childhood memory of where the docks were in relation, than the measurement itself. I will add the quote of the scene below in a moment Raoden's hand fell slowly to his side. He was no geographer; he knew Teod was about four days' sail, but he had no practical knowledge of how many miles or feet that was. he had to work a frame of reference into Aon Tia, give it some sort of measurement, so that it knew how far to send him. Galladon nodded, clapping Raoden on the shoulder. "Prepare a ship!" the Dula ordered to a group fo soldiers - the last remnants of the Elantris City Guard It will be too late! Raoden thought with sorrow. What good is power, what good is Elantris, if I can't use it to protect the one I love? "One million, fifty-four thousand, four hundred and forty-two" said a voice from behind Raoden. Raoden turned in surprise. Adien stood a short distance away, his skin shining with a silvery Elantrian glow. His eyes betrayed none of the mental affliction that had burdened him since birth; instead they stared lucidly ahead. "Adien" Radoen said "you're" The young man, looking strikingly like Lukel now that he was healed, stepped forward "I...I feel like my entire life has been a dream, Raoden. I remember everything that happened. But I couldn't interact - I couldn't say anything. That's changed now, but one thing remains the same. My mind ... I've always been able to figuire numbers..." "Footsteps" Raoden whispered "One million, fifty-four thousand, four hundred and forty -two" Adien repeated "That is how many steps it is to Teoras. Measure my stride, and use half of that as your unit." (here Ashe is upset saying to hurry, I am trying to cut down on how much I have to type) "Adien!" Raoden said, drawing a line in his Aon that was half the length of the boy's stride. "One million, fifty-four thousand, four hundred and one" Adien said "That will take you to the docks" He looked up, frowning "I... I'm not sure how I know that. I went there as a child once, but..." It'll have to be enough, Raoden thought. he reached up and wrote a modifier beside his Aon, telling it to transport him one million, fifty-four thousand, four hundred and one lengths of the line.

So I agree it was always Shallan, but just to clarify my earlier post a bit. The description was that the three of them were shifting and merging. The imagery I got at least is picture three people standing. Their faces and clothing, etc flow between them, that is the shifting. Then the merging is then flow together into one. That one could look like Shallan, or Radiant, or Veil, or a combination of any of the three. Then flow back out to three, shifting again. So what I am saying is Lift showed up at the time when they merged into one, but in Shallan's head they are still three. I think this because then later Jasnah does come up, and sees three separate individuals, and goes to reach out to the one that looks like Shallan. That one puffs away, but the one that looks like Radiant remains and says "here". So I believe Jasnah caught Shallan at the point of shifting and merging, where she was "standing in" as Radiant. Radiant who was the one able to deal with the 2rd truth (3rd oath) for a shardblade, and based on the illusion shown earlier on the 3rd truth (4th oath) for shardplate. It is theorized that Shallan is up to her 4th oath as of Oathbringer. So theoretically Shallan should already be capable of shardplate. Hopefully that clarified what I was saying. So as to the questions about the constructs, this is all utterly conjecture but I could see it working this way. Perhaps the number and complexity determines? So for instance, if I were to create 100 illusions, I will have trouble controlling all of them at once, and they will be weaker. If however I create one, and focus on that one alone, I could see that construct being stronger, more resistant to damage, and maybe even (depending on how much stormlight I have) being able to reform/heal the construct as it is damaged.

Honestly my goal was not to convince you to see things my way. I was just explaining why I see things my way, and when you responded saying it is different, I just explained why I do not think it is. If you are trying to convince me to change my mind about Kelsier, I do not think that will occur. Not that I am being stubborn or obstinate, but because I feel based on what I have seen of the character, it gives me a pretty strong impression of him. So it would take a whole lot more to change my mind about him. But that is just my own opinion. Right, if the guards were alerted. Which they wouldn't have had Kelsier tried the stealth route instead of killing guards willy nilly. That's my point. In my opinion Kelsier could have gotten the atium easier, and taken out the noble resulting in the same goals accomplished more effectively without the needless collateral damage. That for myself he actively chose to go the bloody path. Maybe another example could illustrate better? Stormlight Archive spoilers below Younger sons are viewed as a problem in all sorts of real world and fictional royal situations. The second son is a back up if the first son dies, but if the first son grows to maturity then the second son is a problem. The second son could, seeking the throne or head of family, could arrange an accident himself. They could gather supporters and arrange a coup. I do not think it would be hard at all for Kelsier to find a sympathetic second son gunning for first place. And that is even assuming the second son knows the accident was on purpose and Kelsier did it. There are all sorts of ways to arrange an accident that even the second son could believe. Again, Kelsier would not only be dealing with the noble. He would have other contacts being the thief crew leader that he is. And why would the steel ministry investigate? Wasn't the whole point of the house war was because the Lord Ruler lets them get at each others throats every so often to get it out of their system? The rebellion is just as risky. That is why they planned ways to prevent the koloss and the army from being involved. All the risks you mentioned are just as viable in the rebellion that Kelsier created as is. The only difference I am adding is additional ways that would not result in Kelsier killing anyone he comes across, because it is not a requirement. He can (to me) accomplish all his goals just as easily, or in some cases easier without the collateral damage. Those guards did not have to die. Kelsier chose to kill them as an extracurricular activity. Theoretically yes. Brandon has said Kelsier has always had this side in him and channeled it through his thievery. The pits just set it off. It gave him the additional tools for this side of him to use. So theoretically I think had another person gone through what Kelsier did and came out the other side :::cough Vin cough cough:::, I think they could have remained sane (relatively) and not become a monster. I do not feel Kelsier is a product of his environment. I feel Kelsier's darker compulsions come out depending on the environment he is in. But those darker compulsions I feel are all Kelsier from the get go.

For myself telling something is possible is different than teaching how to do it. Syl could tell kaladin he can fly, but if the only way he could test it (using an extreme example due to the lethality of shadesmar) is to drop off a cliff, then there is a pretty good chance he will go splat. Versus her saying to him you have to alter your perception to seeing up as down and so on. Which kaladin learned from testing and experimenting and finally from seeing szeth do it. Syl never taught him how to. Same thing with shallan. In fact sometimes the spren are even surprised by what the radiants can do and only realize it is possible when the radiants are capable of it. Shallan should have been able to do sound at the time which is why pattern knew she could potentially do it. But had she been a new lightweaver, she would have to discover how to do it. Probably normally back in the day you had existing radiants to teach but not now. Now it is sink or figure it out. For myself based on what jasnah went through, i could not see a 5 year old to 10 year old surviving that. Its like throwing a kid into quicksand. Quicksand that the kid never knew existed before, nor how to get out of but expect the child to figure out how to get out and not die. Is it possible? Sure. But personally i do not think it probable. For myself 9 times out of 10, that child will unfortunately die

I can quote it later, but the beads do shove their way into your eyes, nose, throat, and ears. Actively. As in they are forcing their way in. It is not water that they just happen to leave their mouths open and swallowed. They forced their mouths shut, and the beads still forced their way in. That is very active to me. Words of Radiance page 21 Jasnah crashed into something. An ocean of the glass beads. Countless others rained around her, clicking like hailstones into the strange sea. She had never seen this place; she could not explain what had happened or what it meant. She thrashed as she sank into what seemed an impossibility. Beads of glass on all sides. She couldn't see anything beyond them, only felt herself descending through this churning, suffocating, clattering mass. Jasnah flailed in the darkness, beads rolling across her skin, getting into her clothing, working their way into her nose as she tried to swim. It was no use. She had no buoyancy in this b\mess. She raised a hand before her mouth and tried to make a pocket of air to use for breathing and managed to gasp a small breath. But the beads rolled around her hand, forcing between her fingers. The beads found their way into her mouth. They seemed to move on their own. They would choke her, destroy her. From what I recall she said she couldn't do sound, and Pattern was surprised she couldn't and he didn't then teach her how to. She still figured it out herself.

Not just soothers in those stations. Marsh details includes copper clouds, and bronze seekers spying. They accomplish multiple goals. Getting confused again. I thought you said the reason you would not give someone some spikes versus all the spikes is then the lord ruler couldn't control them? But I mentioned he would be killing the noble directly, instead of taking out the guards as collateral damage. He says Kelsier was always a great liar. A younger son quickly becomes the first born when the elder has an "accident". One wrong word to the wrong person, and the rebellion falls apart but it worked. And again soothing, rioting, coupled with bribery to the right people, and assassination to others (without collateral damage) would accomplish it to me. Then I guess I am still confused because I believe Kelsier is insane, and depending on the circumstances is a monster. Whether he succeeds or not to me is immaterial. I think someone who is not a monster could succeed with the rebellion.

Sure, people can survive in all sorts of environments, just the impression I got from shadesmar is it actively tries to kill you. It would be like putting a child out in the Australian desert. Could the kid maybe possibly some how survive? Maybe? But heat stroke, snakes, spiders, dingos, and so on are going to make it sure hard. When you first try to soulcast, you send your self to shadesmar. Full adults panicked when entering without knowing what to expect and nearly drowned and died. Children I would assume the mortality rate would rise rather steeply. Did they? I know Kaladin, Shallan, and Jasnah experimented, but I do not recall the spren specifically teaching them how to use the surges.

True, though Roshar is largely land locked, and teaching swimming at such a time period is not exactly a common thing. Especially for children, nonetheless adults. There have been sailors even for countless ages that never learned to swim even though they are on a boat and surrounded by water. But the big thing is, swimming doesn't work in the cognitive realm. The stones just shift around the person, and forces themselves into their eyes, nose, mouth, and ears. The only way to deal is to summon a "raft". That requires calm and focus. For myself a 5 year old child suddenly finding themselves in a alien place, dropping into beads that are forcing themselves into their mouth and various orifices would panic them enough to die. Learning yes, ie being taught by someone. But just discovering? I disagree.

Three spikes is the limit before Harmony can control you easily for a human. Not a hemalurgic construct. Human. Vin needed duralumin because she was not as strong an allomancer as they once were. Elend could do it much easily due to becoming a mistborn via the bead. I would imagine the Lord Ruler could do so even easier. I already mentioned Kandra in regards to Paalm. She could infiltrate and use allomancy/feruchemy. They have spying stations throughout the city. That is evidence to me. Again, the original reason for this premise was that the rationale presented was that the reason Kelsier kills civilians is to remain the appearance of a strong crew leader. Vin would be the exception to this rule. I was asking why when Kelsier knew nothing about her and she could have just as easily been a spy. The rest was a very long rabbit hole that hasn't changed anything for myself. I think Vin the spy is plausible. You do not. To each their own. Marsh said their past attempts constantly failed. How does Kelsier know it hasn't already happened and it just has not gotten caught? That Vin is the latest spy to dismantle the resistence? Exactly. Which would still have accomplished the goal of freaking out the houses and suspecting a house war I think a thief could have a political agenda and not harm the guards. Proving he is better than the nobility that treats them so horribly. You could say that. I could also say Marsh knows Kelsier better than everyone else and sees him for what he truly is. I thought I did? You asked who Kelsier could use. I gave two examples. I thought I also already replied to the rationale? That going in stealthy could have accomplished far more. As to your question. The way you wrote it is a bit confusing. Please clarify. Are you saying that if I went through Kelsier's experiences, I would be either insane, dead or a monster?

So I do not think children would soulcast easier/better for two reasons 1. They could easily die in the process of learning. Both times we see someone inexperienced first enter into shadesmar, they plummet through the beads and nearly drown. I could see a child panicking and being unable to focus to shape the beads so as to not drown. 2. Jasnah speaks of transformation as a learned and practiced art. Wind you have to enact your will on it. Rock you have to convince about freedom and so on. Could a child be capable of learning to do so? Sure. But I do not personally think being able to imagine things differently would assist in the transformation of convincing something to change.

Later on: "Shallan, Veil, and Radiant held hands in a ring. The three flowed, faces changing, identities melding. Together, they had raised an army." She was merging with them on and off which is why Jasnah confused which one was Shallan. The above quote has her merging and shifting between the three. Sometimes she is them, sometimes they are she. Melding and separating. Personally I disagree. Jasnah when she first ran into Shallan when Jasnah "came back from the dead" spoke to Shallan about immediate concerns. Only after Shallan's sarcastic barb about all she has done without Jasnah resulted in Jasnah calling it to attention and stating she was impressed. The more immediately pressing issue took precedent over commenting on Shallan's advancement. So it seems plausible to me that Jasnah would more focus on Shallan's well being than commenting on her shardplate. As to the WoB, that is your interpretation of it. There are hints of shardplate with Jasnah and Dalinar without it ruining a big reveal. I think the same stands for this. To clarify that small paragraph, not trying to be argumentative and say you are wrong. Just saying some thoughts and that it could be seen another way. To each their own.

Yeah, there are some points I will make below. Not to belabor, state you have to see it my way, or to nitpick. Just some thoughts. Well the illusions that were fighting for Shallan were summoned away from her, while Radiant, Veil, and the other personalities that were struggling to came out, came out at her feet and she forced them down. So to me, the "original" Veil and Radiant were by Shallan. The Radiant that had armor was by Shallan, and the Radiant Jasnah ultimately touched were by Shallan. That is why I equate the two. If you check the scenes where Dalinar and Adolin are in shardplate, or any other individual in shardplate, when someone grabs the other, it states arm or leg. It doesn't make the point of having to say "shardplated arm" or "shardplated leg". I think it would be redundant to have to include that to denote Radiant was still wearing it. But I acknowledge it is still very much open to interpretation. As I said, not attempting to argue, or make anyone agree or disagree with me. Just some thoughts on the subject.

Hmmm. In the scene Jasnah grabs Shallan first. Shallan puffs away. Jasnah then looks to Veil, but Radiant says "here". Then the book says Radiant is the one Jasnah could feel. Shallan asks if Jasnah is real, and Jasnah says yes, then touches Radiant's arm. Unless you are saying Radiant appeared with Shardplate, but then dismissed it for some reason, and then folded that illusion over Shallan, while Shallan created another illusion of Shallan? Just trying to understand better. Also Jasnah making a point to ask Shallan about her shardplate was in the beginning of the novel. People theorize Jasnah has been summoning her own armor nonplussed. I would imagine the same would stand for seeing another radiant with armor. In fact Jasnah assumed Shallan was more proficient with soulcasting than Shallan is, and corrects herself. So maybe she saw the armor, assumed Shallan had full access to the abilities of a Lightweaver of that oath level, but then realized Shallan had difficulty? Just throwing ideas out (side note when it mentioned earlier in the novel that Radiant has shardplate, it mentions her hair is braided, so I would assume it means she was not wearing a helmet)

No problem. Though follow up question, when it is mentioned in the book that Radiant is wearing garnet shardplate, and when Jasnah tries to grab Shallan, she goes poof, but Radiant is the real one. Do you believe the shardplate on Radiant is real or illusory?

Just in case to clarify, what I am saying is I think lightweavers can in fact make solid illusions. Just Shallan is not there yet, or is still having trouble with her personal problems. She admonishes herself for ignoring the transformation side of her order. I think this was the beginning of her manifesting it, but it not being strong enough yet because she needs more practice. She was unable to use sound originally, but lightweavers can use sound and eventually she learned how to. Originally she could only make un-moving illusions. then she could make them with moving parts. Then she could attach them. Then she could layer them. Then she learned she could use just a gemstone linked to it to get it to last far longer than ever before. So I think this is foreshadowing of her learning to make fully solid illusions. But I understand and respect that you think differently.

No one knew that the lord ruler had a specific kandra that knew more hemalurgy than others, but Paalm was still possible. The Lord Ruler made Koloss and Kandra who are also hemalurgic creations that the general populace knows about without worrying about hemalurgy being revealed. Inquisitors run around with spikes clearly shown in their eyes and they do not worry about people finding out about how hemalurgy works. It is an extremely precise process that requires the proper intent. So for myself, I do not believe that information precludes spies who are spikes slightly. Personally I feel you are exaggerating the issues at hand. Hemalurgic spikes can and have been re-used. Inquistor spikes, although require a lynch pin spike at a certain point, aren't an all or nothing thing. The body adjusts. In fact further spikes can be added gradually as Ruin has done when he comes into power. The steel ministry controls the legal system. They control the greatest economical resource (atium), and they gather their members from the nobility that has the greatest source of allomancers. Personally I do not see any reason why they could not have agents that are spiked gradually to be more effective, till they are fully turned into inquisitors. As to the rebellion, I mentioned earlier that they always retreat to the caves (the ones Kelsier later uses for that purpose) because it takes too many resources to track down everyone in the caves. To me it would be more cost effective to send a mole and end the resistance in one go, than that. But I understand that your opinion sees things differently. For myself, I do not think nobility would care one whit about a guards loss of life. If anything they would be more upset that their security was so easily passed, and even more scared that their people are being gunned for directly. Kelsier made it into the personal study of the lord of that keep. He woke up the whole house hold and had hazekillers surround him. To me he would have accomplished far more otherwise. But to each their own. The rest of the scene reads differently for me: "This isn't about a cause Kelsier. It's about revenge. It's about you, just like everything always is. I'll believe that you aren't after the money - I'll even believe that you intend to deliver yeden this army he's apparently paying you for. but I won't believe that you care" For myself I think I have provided plenty of reasonable ways for Kelsier to accomplish his goals. You disagree, which you are totally entitled to. For myself he did not have to kill those guards. But to each their own.

Here are the scenes where it comes up: Oathbringer page 1159 Odium had made a mistake in flooding these soldiers with such thirst for blood. They didn't care that Shallan fed them illusions - they just wanted a battle. So she provided one, and somehow her illusions resisted when the enemy hit them. She thought maybe she was combining Soulcasting with her Lightweaving Oathbringer page 1179 "It is well, Shallan" Jasnah said "I merely wanted to see, as it seemed you were Soulcasting to give your illusions weight. But then, concentrated Stormlight has a faint mass to it. Either way, up the steps, child" (The first quote is from Shallan's perspective, and before she spoke with Jasnah. So it is her own impression and possible conclusion regarding the combination. The second quote is after Jasnah suggested Shallan soulcast some rubble away, and Shallan felt overwhelmed. So Jasnah is assuming Shallan is too inexperienced with soulcasting to have been using it to add substance to her illusions. Now whether that means it is something that is actually possible or not, I think remains to be seen, but personally I believe it is the case. That lightweavers can make solid illusions)