Pathfinder

considering there is WoB that Kelsier is a certifiable psychopath, then if steelheart is weak against psychopaths, then Kelsier would be able to kill him.

I understand, and genuinely did not know that Szeth couldn't while Kal could. It had been so long since I read the first book, the last fresh thing in my mind was that Kaladin could, and from what I recall it was during his fight with Szeth, so I assumed large amounts of stormlight being used. I understand what you state is not conclusive, but it is certainly logical, and makes sense to me. When I reach that point in the book during my research, I would be interested if I notice anything additional in that scene in comparison.

So far the prevalent color is sapphire in the beginning, so it is something I will keep in the back of my mind till an aberration comes up, or new info is provided Ah, excellent point. This is why I feel even if a piece of information pops up that negates the main goal of my work, that it would still be worth it. Hopefully as a by product of zeroing in on those scenes, I could inadvertently notice something missed before. I personally did not know there was a difference in healing shardblade wounds. I do not know if that was common knowledge on the board, but I certainly learned something new as result Edit: Ok here is all my notes from the prologue. After this I will not post my notes till I finish The Way of Kings. Way of Kings Page 24 Prologue: To Kill, keywords: “Szeth breathed in deeply, drawing forth the Stormlight”– inhale, smoky illumination (two lanterns), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of another person’s gravity for a duration), release slight excess. Way of Kings Page 26 Prologue: To Kill, keywords: “He took a deep breath as he ran, drawing in Stormlight from the lanterns.” – inhale, no mention of personal illumination (multiple lanterns), Full Lashing (strength of 100 arms for duration), basic lashing large square block, no stormlight left over Way of Kings Page 27 Prologue: To Kill, keywords: “He walked slowly, drawing Stormlight from the lamps he passed, siphoning it to him and stoking anew the tempest within.” – inhale, no mention of personal illumination (multiple lanterns), reverse lashing (pulled two spears), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), statement that stormlight would not restore limbs killed by shardblades, basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), stormlight enhanced kick. At this point Szeth is concerned about running out, so recharges by inhaling more stormlight Way of Kings Page 30 Prologue: To Kill, keywords: “Energy blazed within him again, and he sped up.” – inhale, no mention of personal illumination (multiple lanterns), Multiple Basic Lashings (to change direction of objects gravity couches, chairs, tables), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), two basic lashings stacked (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), shard gauntleted fist punch to face, scream in pain releasing stormlight, slammed into balcony doors, blow would have killed ordinary man, jaw broken, five basic lashings (wooden balcony), jaw is still broken, basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), stormlight expended. Way of Kings Page 33 Prologue: To kill, keywords: “Numb, Szeth Breathed in sharply, absorbing the Light.” – inhale, three gemstones, statement that stormlight healing far from instantaneous, recovery would take hours, jaw still broken, scene ends.

I will definitely check that spot out. To give an idea, here are some of the notes I just started taking so far. As i progress I hope to refine the descriptions and such. Way of Kings Page 24 Prologue: To Kill, keywords: “Szeth breathed in deeply, drawing forth the Stormlight”– inhale, smoky illumination (two lanterns), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of personal gravity), basic lashing (to change direction of another person’s gravity for a duration), release slight excess. Way of Kings Page 26 Prologue: To Kill, keywords: “He took a deep breath as he ran, drawing in Stormlight from the lanterns.” – inhale, no mention of personal illumination (multiple lanterns) Full Lashing (bonding two items with strength of 100 arms for duration), basic lashing large square block, no stormlight left over edit: something poignant I read while doing this. Szeth states stormlight cannot heal limbs from shardblade wounds, yet in book two that is exactly what Kaladin was able to do with a massive amount of stormlight. That would lend creedence to the possibility that radiants can hold more stormlight to begin with, and possibly Szeth just wouldn't be able to hold enough stormlight to fully heal a limb. So using artbitrary numbers, it requires 15 stormlight to heal a shardblade damaged limb. Kaladin can breath in to a maximum of 16 stormlight, while Szeth can breath in a maximum of 14, which is what prevents him from healing them. Just a thought

Actually the questions you started asking about size of illusion, mass of an object, and so on WERE the questions I was hoping for. Those are observations I have seen mentioned in the books that I could take into account, just like the damage healed variance. I am kind of working backwards in my responses to the quotes, so I do reply to the number of gems issue below. I have seen the illusions and lashings on other peoples as transference of stormlight with intent. When Szeth, at least the first instance we see that is, lashes the guard to the ceiling, the required amount of stormlight actually leaves his body, and is absorbed by the opponent. the opponent then glows and his lashed till the stormlight goes out. So I see that as needing a certain amount of stormlight to activate the ability, and a certain amount to give the ability a duration. Once that stormlight is exhausted, the ability stops. Same stands with illusions. So making up arbitrary numbers, I have a value of 10 stormlight inhaled in me, I lose a value of 1 stormlight per round. It takes 3 stormlight to lash, and I want it to last 2 rounds, so i pour 6 stormlight into my foe to lash him upwards, and he stay there for 2 rounds. Now this is using dnd terms, and arbitrary numbers, but this is the kind of concept I am trying to gain a loose understanding of. I was originally going to quote the full passage, but upon reading the first scene I realized it would become insanely long, but that is a good point, and I will aim for certain keywords as well as chapter and page number that will hopefully allow for ease of reference for others. True but unfortunately as far as I have seen, when Szeth draws in stormlight, he just says from gems, he rarely states how many gems, otherwise I would totally use that in my calculations. As well as the quality of gem. So far the color is occasionally mentioned, but I do not recall, besides soulcasting, does the type of gem matter with how much stormlight it can hold? How the character feels while holding the stormlight is an excellent point and I will attempt to work that in, thanks! I appreciate the concern and consideration, but I view scenarios like this as fun mental exercises to occupy my brain with. So even if in the end something pops up in the 3rd book that completely negates any of my findings, it was still a fun past time. Thanks for the good luck!

I see that you have never heard a Brooklyn, Bronx, Southern or Boston accent then? lol

Granted, you learn anything perfectly, but fail to apply it utterly. Noooo not my pinky finger! Then I have to play on my phone like I am British, with one pinky stuck out!!!! I wish to be able to play with voice commands so I will not have to worry about my pinky!

I am personally leaning towards no because it specifically states nutrition, but that is my own opinion with nothing to back it up other than that.

So back to the original topic of thinking of positive ways to narrow down stormlight use and what one can accomplish task wise with varying degrees of stormlight. The best measure I can come up with on how much stormlight a person inhales is based on how much light they are giving off. Does anyone have a better idea to give a more definitive measurement? Secondly, based on how bright the person is, and how much that light diminishes as they accomplish tasks, I intend to use that as an approximate indicator of how much stormlight was used to power that specific ability. Does anyone have a better idea to give a more definitive measurement in that case? I then intend to apply that to Kaladin, and see if between Szeth and Kaladin, whether or not there is a demonstrative difference between how bright Szeth is after using an ability, vs how bright Kaladin is after using an ability. Does anyone have a better idea on how to accomplish this? I am well aware of the limitations, does anyone have any actual ideas on how to OVERCOME these limitations? Otherwise I will use my loose system to accomplish the GOAL I set out at the start of this post.

I disagree, I think I was very clear in that I was stating it was an old world/traditionalist view vs a modernist view. Stating that it is "vague" in your opinion doesn't change the point of the post. This is not a debate. My post was to add to his thread, not to argue the semantics of the words I used, nor the validity in your mind of my comparison. The OP stated he saw similarities, so i rattled a few off as I thought of them. Now if you would like to state that the stories are not similar, and then I turn around and state they are, and aim to cite examples to prove my point, then it is a debate. Now we are arguing over the meaning of the words, rather than contributing to the original post. For instance, you say they are not indigenous, when there is no clear definition of who is or isn't. The International Law regarding indigenous people would disagree with you. It defines indigenous as based on their historical ties to a particular territory, and their cultural or historical distinctiveness from other populations. Both of which fits the original settlers in Silence, and the trappers in Dusk. This same thing happened with the edgedancer comment. Edgedancer is a broad term, Lift is specific. I stated an edgedancer LIKE Lift. Instead of continuing the discourse of how things could manifest in the real world, you focused on having to state that Lift did not have that ability because she was an edgedancer, which was not the point of your post nor mine at all. This is why zeroing in can be so problematic, you miss and shut down the original discourse. I would like to talk with you about various topics, but for me you make it difficult, so I just will not continue this discussion. Thank you.

That is the point of this thread, we have VERY little information to make ANYTHING definitive. My effort is to take loose terms and instances, and through gathering them and roughly codifying them, we get a better rough picture till we get more/better information. If someone can provide ideas, or suggestions on how to get more concrete data based on the information we have at this time, great. Thats why I asked for suggestions, and input on my methodology. I know it is flawed, and the results will not be conclusive. I am just working with what at this point in time we have. I was going to use Szeth first because we have the most early uses of the lashes and battle where he sustains various levels of wounds. Then I was going to do Kaladin to see based on what we have seen so far, if there is a pretty clear difference between the two regarding stormlight use. Renarian, Jasnah, and Shallan we do not see using stormlight enough to try and get an idea of what one could accomplish with how much stormlight. Yes it will vary, yes different gems store a different amount, and yes random amounts are left when characters suddenly open their mouths in surprise. There are tons of variables. I am trying to narrow it down, just to get a picture, regardless how blurry it will be. When more books are released, and more information is attained, the picture can become clearer

That's why i put it in quotes. It was meant to more represent a more traditional culture that is closer to the land, and natural ways versus a more industrialized culture/influence progression rather than the literal definition of indigenous. I understand you strive for accuracy, but sometimes focusing on one word and disregarding the point of the entire rest of the post can be problematic. I did state that Silence's parents were the first settlers, and respected the woods in regards to the dangers it offered. the trading company i was under the impression was from the mainland, and even if they were from the islands, they were focusing on changing and exerting their will upon the islands, while the trappers that sixth is descended from and maintains their traditions exist within it. If I recall correctly, the Fortfolk did intend on expanding and making more forts. In order to do that, one has to cut down the forest.

Thanks for the info! Do you recall any quotes that go to the extent of "he inhaled stormlight from a pure cut emerald broam" (not an actual quote, just as an example). I have not seen any like that yet, and if they do exist, it would help my research incredibly, because I could then start assigning values to the quality of stones.

I short handed it for the purpose of the post I wrote before i left lol. I will make sure when I write the final post, to notate lumens/cubic meter. Since we do not typically see how many gems, what type of gems, the type of cut of the gem, and how bright the gems are before inhalation, I was using how bright Szeth or Kaladin would be as an indicator of how much stormlight they inhaled. So a smoke luminescence like the first time we use Szeth use stormlight, vs fully glowing at the end of Words of Radiance. So the terminology would not be perfect, but the whole experiment is imperfect since there aren't any definable indicators. I am just trying to work something together that would give us a better idea than what we have now. At this point in time, no, but it has been a bit since I last read Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, so I could be forgetting something. I hope in the span of my search I will locate any if they do exist. I do know there is WoB that the cut of the gem and its size does matter but the gems are rarely described when used for their stormlight.

Sounds perfect! Then I can compare the appearance of various gradations of lumens in the real world, with the descriptions of Szeth and Kaladin as they shed light and prescribe numeric values. Then with the numeric values linked with the tasks accomplished, I could potentially assign values to each task. So if for instance he radiated 10 lumens, healed, flew, and lashed a foe in one scene, and then radiated 6 lumens, lashed a foe and flew, then flying could potentially take 3 lumens, lashing potentially 3 lumen, and through process of elimination the healing in the first scene took 4 lumen. Since this is all pretty loose, it will take a lot of scenes to hopefully narrow things down at all, but I think a rudimentary sense could be gathered

Hmmm, perhaps Jasnah would have a better chance then. I am not saying she would beat Vin, I am still in agreement with just about everyone on this thread that as things currently stand, Vin would win. Just with Jasnah's greater proficiency with soulcasting, she might possibly, at a stretch, if she tried really hard and fast, in the right light, on the right day, with a breeze in the right direction, catch Vin before she kills her lol

I am not sure about Sixth of Dusk but I think they are also both invested worlds that no longer have a shard. Maybe you are right and given it is a short story, he has only so much time and space to work a deeper plot into it. Or could be he is trying to give a taste of other worlds, but hold back a lot for fear of spoiling his plans for down the line. No worries about the downvote, and thank you for letting me know that was what happened.

Both stories involve an "indigenous" culture, dealing with modernization, and changing with the times. Silence the child of the original settlers who respected the wood while the modernists want to chop down and populate the forest, and Dusk a child of the original islanders, who respected the islands, while the modernists want to settle them and build fortresses.

So two things: First personally I do not feel mistborn are "less" invested. The lord ruler was able to push on Vin because he was a lerasium mistborn, and had compounding and was a savant. Actually as I type this, I think pushing on metals in the body and your investment aren't connected at all. Kelsier never said you couldn't push on metals in OTHER MISTINGS/MISTBORNS bodies. He said they couldn't do so PERIOD. So i take that to mean ordinary joe, misting, mistborn, as long as the metal pierces you, it is harder to push on. So if it doesn't matter whether or not you are invested to determine if metal can be pushed inside you, then that is not a reason to judge how invested mistings and misborn are. Second, it has been a little while since I read stormlight, but couldn't Shallan theoretically soulcast the air around Vin into a box of whatever material she choses? Pewter makes you strong, but not enough to punch through feet worth of solid rock, or metal, or diamond. Then she would eventually suffocate and die. Though this would require Vin staying put, which she wouldn't. Just a thought I had

Both mentors theoretically try to kill them, or would kill them if they weren't skilled (the shade of her mother, and the island)

Honestly just for utility and coolness factor is Elsecaller for me. Teleport to work, teleport to pick up my girlfriend, teleport to tahiti for vacation. Open a business where craftsmen make intricate and beautiful wood carvings, and then soulcast it into diamond, steel, or what have you, and profit

I'm sorry, to clarify, I am aware that the ability to metabolize food into stormlight has nothing to do with the order Lift is apart of. Just in reading your post, you mentioned Wyndle, and that made me remember Lift's ability, and then lead me to think how that could be handled on our planet. That is why in my post I wrote "ended up as an edgedancer like Lift". I meant that to mean as an edgedancer, like Lift which has her metabolic ability.

During a debate in another thread regarding a fight between Vin and Szeth, it became pretty clear of one rather large difficulty, measuring stormlight usage. From what I recall, we rarely see much information at all. At least with metals there is some reference to burn rate, what each metal can accomplish, the effect dularium has, and what compounding could accomplish to a degree. With stormlight, the user could either have it burning continually for passive speed, strength and healing bonus, use it actively for multiple standard uses, or "flare" it to get one or a few BIG uses all from one resource that is continually "decaying". So in an effort to gain some insight into this for stormlight, I decided to pull up every instance Szeth uses stormlight, notate how his illumination is described, and what tasks he specifically accomplished between inhalations. Then I intend to do the same for Kaladin, and compare them to see if there is a significant difference in burn rate. I will begin working on this here and there during the week, and time permitting more focused on weekends. I am posting this now as partly a place holder but also to see if anyone has any suggestions or contributions regarding my methodology to aid in attaining my goal of getting a closer handle on stormlight usage?

So i'm sorry but I just thought of a very grim and twisted manifestation of your lovely and altruistic wish. If you ended up an edgedancer like Lift, you could end up like a cow. You would be stuffed with food constantly in order to fuel your stormlight to heal people. Though I was about to say a corrupt group could chain you down so they could have constant access to your healing, but then i remembered you could use friction to slip out. You would become the stormlight equivalent of Bruce Banner. Traveling the lonely road, fleeing the goverment, helping people where you can, but always fearing your abilities would be discovered and locked away.