Pathfinder

Thanks . It would certainly be cool if it turns out to be the reason, though I have a feeling it is a macguffin, and we will never know

This scene is with Kal striking Szeth with a broken spear like a staff, using a steady burn of stormlight, no surges of enhancement, so in my opinion based on the description, the equivalent of a steady pewter burn, please see below: "The assassin took a blow to the shoulder, then the side. He couldnt ignore them all- his Stormlight would run out as it healed him. The assassin cursed, letting out another mouthful of Light, and backed away, his Shin eyes- slightly too large, colored like pale saphires- widening at the continued flurry of strikes." I feel the problem we keep coming into is people are assuming just because Szeth could POTENTIALLY heal any blow regardless how severe, that he could do that for ALL attacks at ALL time. Miles has exponential healing due to compounding. I feel stormlight healing is a combination of feruchemal and allomantic abilities WITHOUT the compounding. So you have gold feruchemal level healing, where you can decide how much a resource you use and how fast, but like Allomancy, you are using an externally obtained power source to do so. So sure Wayne and Sazed can heal tons of damage insanely fast, but there is a limit to how long and how much they can do that. In a fight with Kal, just with a series of blows, Szeth was in danger of draining his supply due to passively healing from the attacks. Miles can take lets say a numeric value of 10 hours of health, and through compounding make it act as 100 hours, and then tap 50 hours for accelerated healing and yet still have 50 hours left (a INCREASE from what he started with). Szeth would have lets say 10 hours of healing he got from stormlight instead of storing, and use 5 hours all at once to heal quickly, but that still leaves him with 5 hours left (a DECREASE from what he started with). and again keep in mind, while he is using stormlight to heal, he is losing stormlight to what I will refer to as "decay" since it is steadily steaming off of him, as well as to fuel his increased speed, strength, and whatever abilities he uses during the combat.

Very true, especially considering it is near impossible to with the information we have to determine the relative burn rates, and how much stormlight it takes to do action A, vs how much metal is consumed to do action B. All we do is arbitrary conjecture based on some circumstances mentioned and infer from there. We KNOW metals are more resource efficient in consumption (no continual loss), but we do not KNOW to the exact degree. I whole heartily agree, I am still swamped with work, and cannot post as long as I would like, so I will think on scenarios and post as they come to me. Though if we gave Szeth unlimited stormlight, then Vin could burn the mists, and at which point she can push on the metals inside a persons body O.O lol so yeah again, like you said we need to focus on scenarios

As you state it, I agree, but I was under the impression that there was a neutral field, Vin starts at one end, Szeth at another, they know they are to fight to the death, and an intangible deep voice yells "FIGHT!" So Vin would not need to ration her metals on the off chance there would be further combatants. I was at least attempting at an as equal and neutral battle field, and circumstances as possible, with the tools provided in the initial battle posited. Szeth with an honorblade, Vin with the metals listed. I would be happy to discuss with you how we could alter the combat scenario to be as equal as possible . How much theoretical stormlight do you think Szeth should have to level the playing field for atium? I am trying to think of a unit of measurement that could be applied

I would need to pull up, but there are numerous threads that discuss the strength of the mistborn doing the push themselves isn't hinged solely on the weight, but that the weight is the anchor to push off of. There does however have to be at least 120 pounds of force in the push in order to drive Vin up in the opposite direction of the push. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Now where it gets cloudy is how Vin, who is outweighed by Kelsier, can bring to fore nearly as much as he can. So theoretically her push would greatly exceed 120 pounds of force, despite that being the full extent of her weight. The other threads were to try and determine WHY her push was nearly just as powerful as Kelsier's despite the weight differential So if we are then rationalizing on what abilities it would make sense for her to use, then taken Vin is a street urchin, and knows you have to finish combat as brutal and as quickly as possible, she would employ her full abilities in order end the fight as quickly and efficiently as possible. In addition there are times where she fights normal enemies and uses duramumin. On example being the bandits pursuing Breeze as he is fleeing to Luthadel. She uses duramumin on them. edit: i excluded the fact that Vin was unique in the strength of her pushes in an attempt to provide a standardized measurement in order to determine how great a potential gravitational force would have to be to affect the push enough to prevent it from connecting with Szeth. I think what is most perplexing me, is all the points I have been making were not to say "hey Vin just needs to do this and Szeth is dead". It is to show that Szeth can't "just do this and Vin is dead". There is a LOT more going on in this fight for it to be called so callously that way.

But correct me if I am wrong, but her weight is what is driving the coin forward. So the force on the coin is her body weight. Technically she can exert more, which is why she can fly. She is using the coin to push her weight against the floor, to move up. And there are numerous examples of her opening up with a duramumin push. They are mainly in the later half of the second book, and most of the third book, but they are there

I am going on the premise that in order to have the same affect on a normal blade , you need to increase the action. So a dularium push would have the affect of a normal push on the honorblade. Just like any gravitational powers used ON Vin would need to be significantly amplified in order to affect her the amount it would any normal person. In order to attain this effect, dularium has to burn the entire steel reserve, so Szeth would need to consume the equivalent level of stormlight to accomplish the same goal So again, you are now stating that Szeth has the increased level of strength, and reaction in order to anticipate AND prevent an INVISIBLE force from yanking his blade from his hand? So firing a rifle and dropping a marble would result in them both having traveled the same distance? The example you give assumes no outside force acting upon the objects save for gravity. If the principle you cite is applied the way you imply, then firing a pistol vs firing a rifle would be no different. They both would travel the EXACT SAME DISTANCE. That is why I cited the angle of reach earlier. You are attempting through the amplification of gravity to change the angle in the distance between Szeth and Vin. I am going on the premise that they are roughly 30 feet apart, but this would still change nothing even if they were even FURTHER apart because of below: Vin is 120 pounds in this example. She pushes the coin against her own weight. Force (N) is mass (kg) times acceleration m/s^-2). 120 pounds of force is 533 Newtons. Mass is 0.0025, so the acceleration is 213 200m/s^-2. From there, if the force is continually applied to the penny for 30 straight feet, it will reach Szeth in less than 0.01s, acheiving a speed of 2130m/s. Last time I checked, even stormlight enhanced, Szeth nor Kal has moved as fast as superman, the flash, or quicksilver, so how is he dodging it? BTW this is not accounting for dularium. If they have knowledge of each other's powers, he still does not have enough time from picking up his rock to even increase the gravity before the coins have hit him. It would take the same time for Vin to grab a vial and down it with one hand, as she grabs her coins and casts them out in front of her with the other hand, as Szeth takes to bend over, inhale and pick up a rock. I could even give you that he already has his blade out, Vin can do a dularium push on ALL the coins AND his blade at the same time in ONE push. Then she can do that again with a dularium PULL. If they do NOT have knowledge of each other, Vin in EVERY SINGLE COMBAT she has had, she opens up with shooting coins. How would Szeth know to counter an ability that he knows nothing about in 0.01 seconds it takes to reach him? If he comes at her, any attack, any attempt to touch her, even his "glowing spray" would be seen in a shadow allowing her to avoid. You keep saying "oh Szeth can do this" "Oh Szeth can do that" but you do not take into account the resource use required in order to accomplish these feats. I keep comparing things to DND, but this is like a wizard vs a psion. The Wizard has more spells to chose from, but once the spell is used that is it. The Psion has less spells to use, but can use a weak one a ton of times, or a powerful one once or twice. So lets assign values. Let us assign a numeric value of 10 to each metal Vin is burning. She has steel, iron, tin, pewter, duralumin, zinc, brass, copper, bronze, and atium. So even though copper and bronze would not be useful for this combat, I will still count it as a reservoir so Szeth would have a stormlight value of 100, while Vin would have ten numeric values of 10. So now lets see if I can chart this out below: annnnnnd I am swamped at work, so this portion will have to wait till tonight. I do not understand why you will just not concede that this bout is not open and shut, and that each combatant has abilities that at the VERY least would make it a close fight.

I added additional edits for your consideration. And actually it would be Sword that can be yanked out of hand+enhanced combat abilities+accelerated healing vs the ability to disarm the opponent+dagggers+enhanced comabt abilities+seeing the future+ accelerated healing I think by this point we should just agree to disagree because we are clearly not making any headway

But there IS air resistance acting on the arrows. So despite a continual push during the entire flight, Vin's weight does not enter into that calculation whatsoever? Also the arrows were not moving at the same speed as a bullet. How do you account for the speed in the distance covered? You are assuming the same rate of effect upon the projectile. The amount of time Szeth would have to affect an arrow would be MUCH more than the time he would have to affect a bullet. How do you account for that? Again, you are grossly underestimating the amount of stormlight to power everyone of those abilities. Vin is pewter enhanced, so the usual power level of lashing would not have the same affect. He would have to use even more than he has used on normal people in the book, as well as again he is continually breathing in more and more stormlight, which he WOULDN'T have. This is not an open and shut fight. I am reading further, but I am referring to the angle of reach, which is where V is the initial velocity As I come up with scientific formula, this is how I am envisioning the issue: Take a pistol and a sniper rifle. Fire them parallel to the ground, and over a long enough distance the pistol bullet will be pulled to the ground earlier than the rifle bullet. Now increasing the gravitation pull would make that occur sooner, but if we increase the velocity to compensate for the increased gravitational pull, the projectile will still make the distance. What I am stating is in the assumed distance between these two combatants, and the velocity of a dularium pushed coin, Szeth would need a HUGE amount of stormlight to affect it enough to curve its course enough to not strike him. Also here is a question, if we are assuming that a coin shot travels the velocity of a bullet, how is Szeth, even with stormlight, able to have enough time and speed to pick up a stone, and lash it before he is shot? Kal knew the parshendi were drawing their arrows and already had a shield in his hand. How is Szeth going to be in position and prepared to counter this?

yeah that was a normal disguise when she first met Kal, no lightweaving.

So I am necroing this thread because I have a question and you all clearly have far more advanced knowledge in physics than I could ever hope to hold, so I am hoping you all could help me. Based on your calculations, if we were to assume some variables, such that it is Vin doing the push, she is pushing an average copper penny, lets say she weights 120 pounds, she is shooting a target a distance away (I suck at gauging distances, so maybe an average room length apart?)and she is flaring steel, is there anyway to calculate the kinetic energy in the coinshot? And then with all the same variables, calculate the kinetic energy with a dularium assist? Also assuming Vin maintains the push during its entire trajectory, would that affect the calculations at all when the coin hits the target? Bonus points if the formula could be shown, and maybe explained to me so I could learn a bit more on the subject and be able to apply it in the future myself as well

although i cannot state with absolute veracity, I think Kal could. I would have to look up and qoute the scene, but I do recall Kal doing that to Szeth, though Szeth was wielding an honorblade which is inefficient in stormlight use, so might have made it harder to hold it to himself.

So I find I genuinely want to calculate this out, to get a definitive answer, but I am running into some roadblocks, so any help would be appreciated. I did some research and i know Kinetic energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity^2 . Now I found a page that I have linked below, where they define based on that equation the relative kinetic energy an arrow, a light spear (Szeth's situation), a pistol and a rifle among others have. I could say for simplicity sake that a coin shot from an allomancer would equate to the pistol, and a dularium would equate to a rifle, but that is my own assumption based on description rather than calculation. Thinking upon the equation, the mass of the coin would be similar to that of the bullet, but since the force is maintained through the entire push (in my example, i know the push doesn't HAVE to be maintained), and is opposed to the mass of the allomancer, would I multiply Vin's weight with the weight of the coin, and then divide it by the pull of gravity (32.2 ft./sec/sec)? Or would I add it? Or would that be entered elsewhere? I feel like somewhere else on this board someone else with a far greater understanding of these calculations has already done this. If so can someone point me in that direction? Or help me figure this out? edit: heres the link i forgot to include lol http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm

i wish I didn't have to translate what people write in this thread to play this game

You stated a sideways force, holding a rock in your hand away from your body is not far enough away, with enough radius affect, with enough power to turn away a maintained dularium steel pushed coin. If you like I would be happy to research the math involved, but Szeth would have to EASILY spend as much, if not more than Kal did when he drew ALL the parshendi arrows to his shield AND that drained Kal's ENTIRE reserve. So please do have Szeth use his entire stormlight supply to stop one coin, so Vin can then use a powerful steel pull to yank Szeth's honorblade away, and then follow up with a pewter flared enhance punch that caves Szeth's face in. Can Szeth do something else during that exchange? Of course, but I don't think reverse lashing does what you think it does Yet again, it has been pointed out on numerous occasions stormlight runs out far faster than metals for numerous reasons. First, as lol_king mentioned, it continually drains regardless its use. So basically you are operating with a bucket full of water that has holes in it. Second as lol_king also pointed out, Szeth had to continually drain spheres from his own supply, from the surrounding supply of lights, and the enemies armor. In this posited bout, Szeth ONLY has his own to draw upon. If having a sack full of spheres required Szeth to continually scavenge for other sources, then how many spheres do you realistically expect him to carry around for this fight to accomplish all you say he can do? Thirdly the most I will give you is the burn rate for stormlight and the burn rate of atium MAY be about the same, which means Vin just burns atium, preventing death. When her atium and his stormlight is gone, Szeth is now human like anyone else, while Vin still has ALL her metals. Finally as I again have continually mentioned, Szeth is using an Honorblade. Is an honorblade insanely powerful? Probably yes, but at this stage in the book, with Szeth as was given the blade functions as such: inefficient use of stormlight, provides two windrunner surges, remains only in blade form and takes 10 heartbeats to summon. If when more books are released, and we know more of what an honorblade can do, you want to retcon and base the bout on that? Then matters would be totally different. if you wanted to take Szeth at the end of Stormlight with Nightblade, then again totally different. But as posited, this fight is not the open and shut case that you present.

Granted, it is a bottle of salt water I wish to be a bronze ferring, since I hate the cold and am wearing gloves at my desk

Granted. no curse since my mother has cancer, and I want to add my wish to that wish.

Granted, but I spike you to gain pewter I wish to find the well to become the new lord ruler

Granted, but earth is destroyed in the process I wish I and all my loved ones were on a planet that wasn't destroyed because of pir2h's wish

Granted, you think you are the king of kobolds I wish to teleport like a gatemage but not have to live through the horrible plot, strawmen arguments, and brain dead over sexualized female representations.

LOL, I have had a VERY long string of VERY bad relationships till I met my girlfriend, and I am 30 (and I am told I am still very young). You have plenty of time

So then the question is, are we treating Szeth as he is in the book with his honorblade, or are we altering the character for the fight? Same stands for Vin. Can we establish parameters? My impression was that we were talking about Vin with access to atium and dularium, but not bendalloy nor cadmium. That Szeth was wielding an honorblade, which is why he would have windrunner abilities, but also have the limitations mentioned while he wielded it. If anyone feels that is unbalanced in favor of one party or another, I would be happy to discuss the limitations and then apply them to the hypothetical bout.

Use of gravitation as originally stated in reference to projectiles requires touch. Szeth had to touch the wall, Kal had to touch the shield, so by your example, where is Szeth touching to cause a sideways force? I have included a quote from the coppermind for reference: "Reverse Lashing-By using the Reverse Lashing, a Surgebinder can increase the gravitational pull of an object, allowing them to subtly pull nearby objects toward it. The Surgebinder must maintain contact with the object to Reverse Lash it." I already covered this, is Szeth using an honorblade? If so his stormlight runs out even faster, as well as if it gets knocked out of his hands it does not disappear, he will need to retrieve it. Is it a shardblade? He will need to take 10 heartbeats to resummon it, during which he is weaponless, and Vin can just disarm him again each time it is summoned to his hand. Is it a sprenblade? That is the only scenario I would give it to you as the weapon can change on the fly, and be summoned immediately, but Szeth has not bonded a spren yet, so it is not applicable Unless you set up the stakes to grossly favor Szeth in supply, the stormlight will run out before Vin's metal reserves, and even faster if he is wielding an honor blade as he did in the book. edit: oh! also remembered one other thing. Szeth draws on ONE resource, Vin on MULTIPLE. If she runs out of one, she still has the others. True Szeth can "compound" healing or lashing, but that reduces for the rest of his abilities. So if he increases the gravitation 10 fold in order to counter the steel dularium push, most of his stormlight would be depleted making him move slower, heal less efficiently. If he focused the stormlight on healing serious wounds that she inflicts, he has less stormlight and thereby would have weaker lashes and so on.

maybe emphasizing it this way will help: "Sliver. Useless, unburnable silver. Like lead, it was one of the metals that provided no Allomantic powers at all." So I take that to mean you cannot burn silver. Since you can't burn it, like you can't burn lead, you gain no powers from it, as in you do not enhance your senses like tin, you do not enhance your endurance like pewter, etc. Has nothing to do with whether or not you can steel push or iron pull on something made of silver.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ::::pauses to take another breath::::: OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO