Pathfinder

Well when Shallan soulcasts, doesn't she have to "convince" the thing she is soulcasting to change? So by that logic it would have to be consensual on Patterns part. At least regarding soulcasting, and regarding Shallan that is. Not sure if Jasnah's soulcasting functions differently.

I have nothing to support this, but I believe it is because the flame spren do not have a "consciousness" like Syl, Pattern, and Ivory have. That is why Syl is so afraid of "dying". She loses the sense of self she gained by bonding with Kaladin. So without that, they are subject to whatever measurement in that moment is applied to them.

Granted, you become the greatest forger ever known. In fact you are so good, you figure out a way to create a soulstamp that can be applied to anyone regardless their history. In anticipation of dealing with opponents who are more powerful than you, you create a soulstone that removes a persons abilities completely, causes them to completely forget they had powers and ingrains a compulsion to refresh the stamp regularly for "medical" reasons. So proud of your grand accomplishment, you get up from your work table, trip on your chair and as you fall you land on your stamp. Congratulations, you are now a normal person with no abilities at all, all because you had to be greedy and ask to be a forger too I wish plants vs zombies could be free on windows computers, so I won't have to stare at my phones tiny screen to play it. (it recently made a come back, and now I am addicted )

I will admit a lot of what you wrote, and what was written in the post you referenced (which ironically enough if you scroll down, I posted there hoping someone could help me on this topic and I never got a response lol), is over my head but I will keep re-reading and doing additional research so I can understand it better, so I appreciate the link and the explanation that helps me learn new things and further appreciate Brandon's books I do still intend to sometime this week, or hopefully this weekend begin listing all the instances Szeth uses stormlight based on illumination, and actions accomplished between inhalations to satisfy my own curiosity and perhaps assist in knowledge on this forum. Also if I have time, I would like to try the same with Kaladin, to see if there is a clear visible difference in the amount of activities accomplished between inhalations when compared with Szeth, or is it something we have to take at face value as stated by Syl. Do you, or anyone else have any suggestions or contributions regarding my methodology to aid in attaining that goal? Do you think I should make a new thread with that goal in mind?

You have the freedom to say whatever you want, just like everyone else has the freedom to not like what you say, and tell you as such. It came off as crass and it seems like Argent wasn't thrilled with it. He exercised his freedom of speech to say as much.

I believe the issue is not so much your opinion but how you chose to express it.

Cue Aladdin's "A Whole New World" to play in the background lol

but the difference between the 120 pounds that vin is, and the ounces the coin is, is translated into the momentum shooting the coin forward. So she wouldn't be thrown back. If there were twin Vin's with the same twin powers, both pushing on the same coin, they would be thrown back, but that is NOT the case. Maybe I am misreading something, or misunderstanding. As you state what is going on with the coin, explain to me what is happening if I physically push a boulder in front of me, assuming the boulder is lets say 50 pounds, and I am 150 pounds.

I thought that was chromium, and that nicrosil was the one that acted like dularium but externally?

The third law says that for every action (force) there is an equal and opposite reaction (force). Forces are found in pairs. Think about the time you sit in a chair. Your body exerts a force downward and that chair needs to exert an equal force upward or the chair will collapse. It's an issue of symmetry. Acting forces encounter other forces in the opposite direction. There's also the example of shooting a cannonball. When the cannonball is fired through the air (by the explosion), the cannon is pushed backward. The force pushing the ball out was equal to the force pushing the cannon back, but the effect on the cannon is less noticeable because it has a much larger mass. That example is similar to the kick when a gun fires a bullet forward.

No, if Vin is putting 120 lbs of force on the coin, the coin needs to push back 120 pounds of force to REMAIN STATIONARY. A coin is what? A few ounces or so? So the resulting force on the push is like 119.7? The conservation of force means the pounds of force is translated into the velocity that the coin travels. The original form of Newton's second law states that the net force acting upon an object is equal to the rate at which its momentum changes with time. If the mass of the object is constant, this law implies that the acceleration of an object is directly proportional to the net force acting on the object, is in the direction of the net force, and is inversely proportional to the mass of the object

1. When you push a coin across a table with your finger, are you pushed back? Technically by Newton's law, yes you are, but the force is so negligible in comparison to you, that you do not notice it. Same to for coin shooting the coin. 2. Oh I utterly agree, expanding on the premise brings it to ludicrous levels. When I explained the scenario to my friend, he said based on his calculations it would reach the speed of 2130m/s, which would exceed its terminal velocity and vaporize it. I admit if we take it to its full extent, then there are a lot of things we can ask why the character's did not do, but that comes up in all of Brandon's books. How many times have you seen threads to do something like Wax's weight manipulation, positing that if you could compound weight you would create a black hole? I am just trying to extrapolate based on the information we have, how it could be employed in the situation. Given our understanding of how steel pushing words in order to make Vin fly, since it is explicitly said its your personal body weight vs the object, then she has to bringing not only 120 pounds of force down, but MORE than that to push herself AWAY from the ground, otherwise she goes no where. That's why the extremely overweight have the danger of their legs failing. The structural integrity of the bones in their legs, are not sufficient enough to maintain enough force pushing back against the ground, to remain standing. That line of allomancy Vin is pushing on that is holding her up in the air is her "leg" If it wasn't 120 pounds of force, she would be falling, if it was more, she would still be flying further. So actually this would change the calculations to being even more insane, because closer to her is far greater than 120 pounds, since she can thrown herself in the air by it, and only till you get 30 or 40 feet out does it decrease to 120 pounds of force, and you have to go even further before it decreases to nothing. I include the link below less for the formulae shown, but more for the illustration of how I see it in my mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force#mediaviewer/File:Freebodydiagram3_pn.svg

The metal she is pushing on is the extent of the push reach, but consider the fact that she is still in the air pushing on a coin means at that distance she can still bring to fore 120 pounds of force. Unfortunately I do not recall the height of the wall being specifically stated, but my impression from how she flew up, saying that the wall wizzed by her, was that it is a very respectiable height. A height that when laid straight down to distance, I think would be sufficient enough to reach Szeth without reaching the limit of her influence. In other words there is a steel "bubble" of influence that she can push her 120 pounds worth at, unless he is a significant distance away, he is not beyond it so she would still be able to bring to fore 120 pounds of force through its entire flight to him. Also I recall the premise I made to my friend who did the calculations was based on Szeth being 30 feet away. So unless the wall Vin shot up was under 30 feet, I think it could be said that the push could be full powered during its entire trajectory to Szeth. Though unfortunately we do not have hard numbers, so that is the best I could come to a solid answer. If I recall correctly, though I forget where I read this, was the reason for an object being in flight being able to be easier to manipulate, is because it is further away from the gravitational pull of the planet, so it is easier for an opposing gravitational field to act on it. Now intuitively from what we know of gravity, a few feet above the ground is not a significant enough reduction in gravitational affect for it to matter, but I think that was what the statement was going for. damnation, I really do swear I read that somewhere, but I can't remember where. Lol I agree and disagree. I see the reverse lashing as a sort of aura. So let us picture a line of five people. Kaladin is the center person, with two people on his left, and two on his right. Five parshendi fire five arrows at the five people. One arrow for each person. If Kal wanted the arrow aimed at him to his his shield, He doesn't have to do anything, just raise his shield. If he wants the arrow directly to his left and right, he has to use his aura to draw it to him. This results in pulling the arrow already traveling at him harder increasing its velocity and force. But Kal also has to pull the arrows from the guys two over. Which means he has to put even MORE energy into it, to pull those two arrows, so they hit his shield normally, but the two arrows next to him hit his shield harder, and the original arrow aimed at him hit with a force to almost penetrate the shield. So you see in this example, he did not over use his stormlight. He used exactly how much he needed to, to alter the trajectories of all five arrows, but since in order to alter them, he had to create a force pulling at himself, he increased the velocity and strength of the arrows already on target and that is why they penetrated the shield to a degree. WAIT! Maybe that is why Brandon says gravitational powers are spiritual? It is our spiritual connection to our planet's gravity, and by creating another gravitational field to pull the object away, you are trying to connect it spiritually to that gravitational force instead, so the closer to the planet, the stronger the spiritual connection, the further away, the weaker the spiritual connection, so the easier it is for another gravitational force to over ride it? I dunno, does any of that sound at all like it makes sense, cause im reaching lol.

I will admit it is possible. I do not think it is the case, but I will give you that, it could be inferred from the evidence on hand that possibly Szeth's healing ability had been reconed between books. I do not mean this to sounds mean, but please check my earlier posts. When Shaggai and I went back and forth over this, I did some research on traveling ballistics, and reached out to some friends. Assuming my statement of a continued push, and assuming my understanding of Vin weighing roughly 120 pounds being the force driving the coin during its entire flight, then even without dularium, the coin shot would have an obscene velocity. Think sniper rifle, or even exceeding that. Now imagine having someone try to dodge a sniper rifle bullet when the person is standing 20 or 30 feet in front of them, and is unable to expect being shot at. As mentioned in the discussion with Shaggai, the reverse lashing, when used a little amount of stormlight, was used on two spears thrown down a hallway, and when arrows were shot. In both situations gravity is already acting on the objects, so they are being pulled towards the earth which is reducing the strength of their flight, as well as wind resistance and the force driving them ends once the spears left the hands, and the arrows left the bows. I am saying the coins would still have the same force acting on it at the beginning of its flight as at its end. Also the example you give of kaladin not using a lot of stormlight on the bridge, was when it was passive, and only protected him. Later he draws ALL the arrows to his shield, and exhausts ALL his stormlight to the point of passing out. That is why given the velocity, and the strength i feel szeth would have to do like kaladin and exhaust his entire supply to affect it. and this is again keeping in mind, what is easy for Kal is to a degree harder because Szeth can't use stormlight as efficiently as Kal I do appreciate that you have reached the point where you agree it would be close between the two. that was the whole purpose of my comments. i am not saying szeth would win, or vin would win, just that there wouldn't be a simple game over action that szeth could do that would end the combat without giving vin a chance I also whole heartily agree that if we took Kaladin instead of Szeth, much of this debate would be going differently. A morphing blade at a moments notice, better stormlight efficiency AND a windsense that mimics atium? Yeah I think the battle would be completely different. In fact just after I posted this, I think Syl's morphing capabilities alone would be enough of a game changer for a lot of the points I made against Szeth. Shooting the coins would be deflected from changing Syl into a shield. All the dularium pushes in the world to disarm Kal would mean nothing, because she could just be IMMEDIATELY re-summoned to his hand. Atium would be the only way to handle the morphing, and the windsense gives Kal a slight form of that.

But as you said, that is your interpretation of that scene, my interpretation is different. It blatantly says "He couldn't ignore them all- his Stormlight would run out as it healed him." You then say yourself why should he care if there is plenty of stormlight in the palace around him? That is an excellent question. If he has access to so much stormlight around him, but is concerned about it running out from ignoring all the wounds, then that leads me to believe that stormlight runs out THAT FAST. As you state yourself, there is plenty of stormlight around AS WELL AS what he has in his pouch, but in the example we are giving between Szeth and Vin, there is a finite amount he has to work with. Vin does that trick once with a steel push, and can do it again with an iron pull, so she actually gets two uses out of it, and STILL HAS ALL HER OTHER METALS. You state that it is difficult to affect Szeth's honorblade because it is heavily invested, but then act like Szeth would not have to use a TON of stormlight in order to touch and lash Vin who is heavily invested herself since she is a mistborn. Also both of you have stated "assuming Vin even gets close to him", yet Szeth is using a sword which requires close range combat, and all of his gravitation abilities require touch (except in one instance where it was a short range spray in front of him). He can fly all over the place, but he still needs to close the distance to fight. Now to be fair, since we are giving Vin coins, then Szeth should have pebbles the same size and number as the coins. I would say give Szeth coins, but then that is metal Vin can manipulate and would give her an unfair advantage. Now Szeth can put multiple lashings on the pebbles to have then shoot at Vin, but once they are gone, he has to actively retrieve them, while she can pull hers back. Regarding the reverse lash to her coins, Shaggai and I went back and forth over that exact topic. My point was not that Szeth COULDN'T reverse lash the coins enough to prevent his injury. My point was due to the velocity and force behind the coins, the amount of stormlight he would have to use in order to affect them enough to change their trajectory in the time required to prevent it from striking him would be SO GREAT, that he may very well drain himself fully of stormlight to accomplish one task. It would make more sense to take the hits and heal them, than to attempt to alter their course. It would also probably be more cost effective. So you reference Words of Brandon where he says himself he feels it would be close, but then discount it because in your own opinion it was awhile back, and he probably made Szeth stronger since then? That is a pretty big stretch. Fine, use a full lashing onto an area, that you have to make stronger than normal due to pewter and steel pushes. By all means use even greater amounts of your already depreciating supply Actually pushing CAN BE a constant force. When Vin and Kelsier get into a pushing match is a prime example. Vin pushes a coin at Kelsier, he pushes on it to stop it, and instead of giving up, Vin continues till she is thrown back into a tree, and keeps doing it till the tree snaps. We only see mistborn and coinshots pushing on a short time because: 1. the push is strong enough to provide enough velocity to pierce the human body. Why use up more steel when you have already accomplished your goal? 2. the pushed coin will come into contact with something it CANNOT pierce, so for instance i do a constant push of a coin at a guard. it travels through the guard and flies to the wall, and I get thrown back. had i just done the push necessary to reach and kill the guard, all is done, no need to continue. 3. Vin used a continual push to bring her to the top of the wall when Kelsier was first training her. She continued pushing to maintain her height, and Kelsier explained how the human body compensates naturally for balance, so she could stay aloft on one coin, though it is usually easier with a tripod configuration. Wax used a continual push on the railway lines after he was thrown off the train by Miles, and used the rails to catch up with the train and reengage the fight. I have been MIA for awhile because to be honest I got frustrated with this thread, and did not want to lash out or act in unbecoming conduct. Then thanksgiving and family happened. Now that I am back and more level headed, I intend to hopefully this weekend do a kindle search on both Way of Kings and Words of Radiance for all instances Szeth uses stormlight, and list all the things Szeth accomplishes between inhalations, and how bright he is during holding stormlight to hopefully illustrate a loose concept of how much stormlight he has, and what he can do with those amounts in those given situations. Also re-reading, I just would like to say Vin uses dularium A LOT. She has used it against human guards, she has used it against Koloss (not just soothing, but steel pushing and iron pulling), she has used it against horses, and has used it for travel. In fact I would say by the third book it is very rare for her NOT to use it. Sorry basically just going over both your posts to make sure I covered everything. Atium allowed Vin to avoid the blows of 12 simultaneous foes effortlessly, and although it is my opinion, I feel the speed and strength enhancement from stormlight is the equivalent to pewter. In both instances when normal people view or comment on Szeth's speed and strength, and Vin's speed and strength, they say almost the exact same thing. They are both incredibly fast and strong, WHEN COMPARED TO NORMAL PEOPLE. I would also like to point out, Vin is especially good with her metals, with her abilities being commented on as being far above what she should be able to do by Kelsier, a mistborn with years of training on her, and Elend, a mistborn more powerful due to the bead of lerasium. Szeth conversely has an inefficient stormlight use when compared to a radiant, and does not get the passive wind sense ability that Kal has from being a radiant.

No need to apologize, in fact I should because I wasn't more clear. I was not bringing this up with the intention of you having to make that a reality on your map. I just thought of how cool it is when astronauts view earth from the space station and watch as night progresses across the globe, and see it light up. So that image was in my head regarding a highstorm progressing across the globe, with an area of green, and then a band of brown just before it, and watching it move across that way. Unless you intend to do an interactive map, not sure how that could be adequately related on paper lol.

But that still results in the problem of her using it without realizing she needed to hide it, which would most DEFINITELY get her killed. And as shown in the book, what nearly happened because she soothed an obligator.

I think part of the problem with this, is defining what to fear steelheart means. Does it mean fearing death at his hands? Fearing his awesome might? If fearing being killed by Steelheart was the only way his invulnerability works, then there are plenty of epics with his level of invulnerability, why couldn't they kill him? What does it mean to be without fear?

So would a few minutes be enough to see a difference from space? I hope so, because the image I am seeing in my head is really cool

Ok, so I did some searching in my kindle. Vin soothed Marsh a few months ago, I take that to typically mean three. Reen snuck away from Camon's crew a half a year ago. When I looked up her luck, it says she has been training through years of subtle practice, and it wasn't till she was 10 years old that she realized other people couldn't do what she could. Hmm, when I found that info, I was going to say you got the point, and I was remembering incorrectly, but as I typed it, I realize, she said she didn't know what she did was unique till she was 10. If Reen knew what she was doing, why not tell her before she turned 10? It sounds like she realized on her own. Now lets say it was Reen that pointed out she could do this, and told her she was unique which is why she realized when she was 10. Why wouldn't he then tell her she was a misting? She always thought of it as luck, so why did he never correct this assumption? She also says that he always told her to make yourself indispensable so you don't get back stabbed. If he knew she was a misting, and that ability made her indispensable, he was very resourceful, i think it would have been very easy for him to get his hands on brass for her to use. Conversely, if he knew enough that the inquisitors were hunting her for being a misting, would it not be a stretch for him to know using her powers would attract them so would then forbid her from using it? Just some thoughts bouncing around in my head, and spit balling it to help me think through it

I am currently re-reading mistborn, and I discovered that when Vin and Kelsier find Camon's body, Kelsier states that Camon probably know Vin was a misting, so I agree it would make sense for Reen to have a feeling she is a misting, though we do not know if she used her luck while he was alive, so I am not sure that just because Camon knew, Reen would have known. True, though another possibility is Reen knew Vin's mother was a prostitute, and that her father was a very high tier obligator, so that could be reason enough for the inquisitors to hunt her down to kill her.

So I just had a thought, does anyone remember from in the books how far in advance did the local flora retreat when highstorms came? I know the further away from the source, the slower the plants responded because the storms were weaker farther out, but did the plants closer to the source retreat faster? Reason I say this, is I thought it would be kind of cool seeing Roshar from space, and basically you see green, but a thin band right in front of a highstorm looks barren as it moves across the planet from all the plants hiding, and then popping out after the highstorm due to the rain.

Granted, but turns out the pack that tried to kill you had been harassing and killing a towns sheep, resulting into them all banding together to hunt you down, and kill you since you now look like the alpha. Congrats you now have a whole town worth of people gunning out for your blood I wish I could convince more people I know of the joy of reading Sanderson's books so I will have more people to gush over the books with.

What was the nature of Endless Dream's invincibility? Was it regeneration like Physical immunity like Steelheart? Intangibility like Nightwielder? I haven't seen the character profiles, and David's classifications for invincibility included multiple manifestations. Hell if I recall correction, reincarnation would also count as invincibility, because the epic wouldn't stay dead. So perhaps it could have been regeneration, but the regeneration depends on having SOMETHING left to regenerate from while the heat prevented that, while Steelheart wouldn't be affected because just nothing hurts him period. Just to be clear this is all conjecture on my part, and asking you questions to learn more. Not stating to criticize, or say you are wrong.

I'm sorry, let me clarify. If you gave a caveman a sniper rifle, and he had no reason to know that he has to lock the bullet in the chamber, aim and pull the trigger, all he will use it as is a club. It took Kaladin having seen Szeth flying and wall running to have an idea it was possible, and even then it took time based on that knowledge to re-orientate his way of thinking in order to accomplish it. Now have a sword which has the CAPACITY to make a person fly and wall run, but the person only knows how to bond it and has no clue that it can let them fly or wall run. So why would the person even attempt to do so? Why would the person look for the metaphorical trigger to pull or button to push? The only scenario I could think of, is the way superheroes discover their powers. A situation appears that threatens their life, and they suddenly somehow use their ability. So in the case of the windrunner honorblade, the person would have to be pushed off a cliff, and even then I think that is a stretch @Moogle: Thing is, I think he is right on the logic of how Szeth states the Shamanite WILL find him. I admit it is my opinion, but the logic to me says you do not base such certainty on relying on rumors. True this is a HUGE stretch, but what would the shamanite do if Szeth got into a fight with Kal, was wounded, fled out to the shattered plain and then was suddenly eaten by a chasmfiend sword and all? In that case the best information they would have to work with was the direction he fled. By the time they mobilized people to pick it up, the chasmfiend could be long gone with highstorms destroying any of the chasmfiends tracks. That leaves A LOT to chance. Someone would not be so certain if it relied on so much chance. At least that is my view